EPTHow it all started - Page 2
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Harris1st
Germany6951 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 30 2020 11:38 ssg wrote: What level ladder player today would win gsl 2010? Above masters, everything bellow doesn't have the mechanics. e.g. Idra, not the best player, was able to play without any substantial supply blocks. This is nearly impossible for any diamond player NOW. While it looks rough the players actually had solid mechanics. They were lost in the game(I mean c'mon, high ground warping?) or maps(hey, look at me, i am in your base with marauders before you can build stalkers! and I have concussive shells already! (that's a beta build, but still  )) but mechanically they would be comparable to m2/m1 players nowadays. Strategy/tactics of LotV is a different thing. | ||
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Kotreb
Croatia1392 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
On September 30 2020 17:23 deacon.frost wrote: Above masters, everything bellow doesn't have the mechanics. e.g. Idra, not the best player, was able to play without any substantial supply blocks. This is nearly impossible for any diamond player NOW. While it looks rough the players actually had solid mechanics. They were lost in the game(I mean c'mon, high ground warping?) or maps(hey, look at me, i am in your base with marauders before you can build stalkers! and I have concussive shells already! (that's a beta build, but still )) but mechanically they would be comparable to m2/m1 players nowadays. Strategy/tactics of LotV is a different thing.Yeah the players look a lot worse than they actually are due to the meta forcing one base builds due to awful maps and broken rushes (hello proxy 2 rax) at the time. If you're some random Master 3 player and think you have better mechanics than 2010 IdrA or NaDa you are out of your goddamn mind. | ||
zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
The biggest factor are the godawful maps that just force the game to be terrible and slow no matter the player. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On September 30 2020 20:27 zatic wrote: That being said you can spot a lot of things that today even a mid Dia player would do better. The A-moving of baneling and marine-marauder into each other was painful to watch. The biggest factor are the godawful maps that just force the game to be terrible and slow no matter the player. You have just the feeling that the game is faster... In reality the only thing faster is the build process; indeed timings attacks aren t faster in LotV than WoL, in other term, if you found annoying SC2 at the beginning of a game in WoL, you find it annoying now as well. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 30 2020 20:27 zatic wrote: That being said you can spot a lot of things that today even a mid Dia player would do better. The A-moving of baneling and marine-marauder into each other was painful to watch. And the point that dia players today are getting supply blocked is off too. There is way more shit going on in a dia ladder game today than in those Ro64 games in 2010. The biggest factor are the godawful maps that just force the game to be terrible and slow no matter the player. Well, you don't watch Winter's angry coaching videos, do you? Anyway, sure, the diamond player will execute the attack better. At the same time he's not producing anything, building anything nor starting anything(upgrades, hello?) When some say, that you can get to masters with anything as long as your mechanics are on point, it means mostly don't get supply blocked, expand at the right time, build the right units and have the proper eco(e.g. don't build 3rd and 4th extractor on 40 drones) There isn't that much more going on in Diamond. Trust me, my Protoss is diamond, my Zerg is diamond and it gets really bad when my Random chooses Terran(barely plat ). In the first 5 minutes I can get supply blocked when all that was happening was a scouting scv | ||
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UncleClimax
18 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Nonetheless, my experience as a BW player is that people almost invariably underestimate how good esports pros are. People think they can beat pros as long as the pro is using a very suboptimal opening. In my honest opinion, I think high master to lowest GM level is like 1800-2050 mmr (let's say roughly 1900 on average). I don't really know but that is my hunch based on some players I know in BW who came from SC2. I am not insulting them, as I consider 1900 mmr to be pretty good. Rather, I am using this to make a point. I'm also not trying to say SC2 is easier than BW. At non-pro level I do think so but I think SC2 is probably around as high level as BW at pro level. In reality for BW, a 300-400 mmr gap is usually sufficient for the stronger player to do "clown builds" on their opponent (eg, mass scout PvZ, vulture-wraith against protoss, mass hydra against terran) and win like 50/50. The amazing thing is that this phenomenon seems to persist even in higher mmr (although I'll admit the gap probably needs to be somewhat bigger for the :"clown builds" to work). For example, a 2200 mmr player can beat a 1900 mmr player with mass scout PvZ and a 2700 player (basically pro) can likely do the same to a 2200 mmr player. So basically a BW pro can clown on a player who can clown on a BW player with roughly high master or low GM skill level. In fairness, I only started watching SC2 since Legacy of the Void but it would shock me if top players were truly that low skill back then that they would lose to Diamond/Master level. Anyway, I get they were lower skill than kespa players but it can't be THAT low. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
I've always loved this <3 On September 30 2020 20:27 zatic wrote: That being said you can spot a lot of things that today even a mid Dia player would do better. The A-moving of baneling and marine-marauder into each other was painful to watch. And the point that dia players today are getting supply blocked is off too. There is way more shit going on in a dia ladder game today than in those Ro64 games in 2010. The biggest factor are the godawful maps that just force the game to be terrible and slow no matter the player. I remember at the time thinking how bad those maps were going to look in a few years and I'd say that more or less held true, I think at one point Blizzard said something about how they released it with simple/small maps to keep things easier to approach for new players? But man Dessert Oasis and Blistering Sands.. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
That heavy thor composition should have worked if not for that balance patch. It was reverted almost immediately, but it really did screw TOP. He played a hell of a series. EDIT: Other than that one series, Fruitdealer was definitely operating with a very shitty version of Zerg and an absolutely atrocious map pool. | ||
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