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2015: The Renaissance and Golden Age of Korean SC2

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2015: The Renaissance and Golden Age of Korean SC2

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
August 1st, 2020 09:02 GMT

2015: The Renaissance and Golden Age of Korean StarCraft II

by Mizenhauer

StarCraft II was always destined for great things.

Its predecessor, Brood War, was the product of a bygone era where game developers weren’t concerned with balancing the game for full-time professionals, the concept of esports was mostly limited to a convention center in Mesquite, Texas and most people didn’t even have high speed internet.

None of that mattered six-thousand miles away from Blizzard headquarters in South Korea, where Brood War became an unprecedented cultural phenomenon. An economic downturn, the proliferation of net cafes and high speed internet, and plain dumb luck factored into making Brood War the de facto national pastime for young men in Korea.
There was a tremendous desire to see the top players compete, which led to televised matches, the creation of live-in practice houses, corporate sponsorships... you know the rest.

Where Brood War’s success in Korea was entirely unplanned and unexpected, there was nothing unintentional about competitive StarCraft II. Designed from day one with the esports legacy of Brood War in mind, it was meant to spread the intense competition and pageantry that had captured one small nation’s imagination to the entire world.

StarCraft II made landfall with the fury of a hurricane. Viewership was excellent. Interest was sky-high. Organizations like Team Liquid and Evil Geniuses quickly established rosters, while tournament organizers like Dreamhack, ESL and MLG clamored for a chance to get a piece of the next big thing. Meanwhile, GomTV became the first Korean entity to transition from Brood War to StarCraft II with the foundation of what would eventually become the Global StarCraft League.

It didn’t take long for certain players to become stars. Fruitdealer won the First Open Season of Gom’s burgeoning competition, but was quickly swallowed by the rapidly evolving meta. Instead it was future champions, Nestea, MC and Mvp who came to dominate Korea and, by extension, the world.

But as rapidly as StarCraft II rose, its decline was steep as well. While much ink could be spillled about the specific reasons (*cough* BL-Infestor *cough*), it will suffice to say here that the game simply got old, the same way every game does. By the time (Wiki)RorO, one of KeSPA's rising stars, wrested control from the old guard, the halcyon days of StarCraft II already seemed long over.


Except this writer, who will always give RorO his just due.


Speaking of KeSPA, the powerful team coalition made the switch over to StarCraft II late in Wings of Liberty, but its assault began in earnest with the Heart of the Swarm expansion. From its ranks rose the aforementioned RorO, but more notably, players like (Wiki)INnoVation, (Wiki)sOs, (Wiki)soO and (Wiki)Rain, all of whom experienced great success in the years that followed. Unsurprisingly, their careers mirrored the ESF giants of WoL. Sure, they dropped maps or maybe lost earlier than expected in Code S, but no one really thought someone like BrAvO would suddenly surpass INnoVation or Shine would exceed soO. This wasn’t the early stages of StarCraft II when anything seemed possible. It was tempting for some fans to say StarCraft II had become yet another “stagnant water game”, as Korean fans had come to dub Brood War and its insular scene.

Those negative nancies would not be vindicated, however, because 2014 was n historic year for Korean StarCraft. A year when (Wiki)Zest and (Wiki)Classic fulfilled their potential, a year when Flash finally figured out SC2 and kicked a soccer ball with PartinG's name on it into the stratosphere. No, it wasn't quite 2011 when the sky was the limit, when MC gave IdrA the throat-slash gesture at MLG Columbus, and Hall D of the Anaheim Convention center felt like a Gwangalli beach for a new generation. But there was still room to grow.

The rumblings began on October 31, 2014 when Blizzard announced that 2015’s WCS format would include not just GSL, but a second individual league run by SPOTV Games. It was an unprecedented move and one which immediately made waves. No one knew what form it would take, but come January 2015, GSL, Proleague, and the newly established StarCraft 2 Starleague (SSL) formed a triumvirate unlike any in the game’s history.

  • Monday, January 12: Proleague
  • Tuesday, January 13: Proleague
  • Wednesday, January 14: GSL
  • Thursday, January 15: SSL
  • Friday, January 16: GSL


Professional StarCraft II five nights a week. These weren't just the weekly cups we’ve grown accustomed to in recent years. This trio of major tournaments, featuring StarCraft at the absolute highest level, were truly the gold standard. It was a killer line-up of top-tier StarCraft, with KeSPA Proleague as the financial anchor. Then there was GSL, the longest running tournament and the historical heart of competitive Korean SC2. Finally, there was SSL, which had room to experiment, playing out of a new studio with new casters and a new 16-player format.

Five nights of top notch StarCraft esports every week, just like in the golden era of Brood War's Proleague. This was the sort of thing Blizzard must have dreamed of when they conceived of StarCraft II. Of course, WCS continued to operate for the benefit of the international scene, but make no mistake about it: Korean StarCraft II was going to a whole new level.

Inside the tournament triumvirate, fans could cheer for the trio of top players in (Wiki)Dream, (Wiki)Maru and (Wiki)Life. Their battles and successes in early 2015 reminded us of how great StarCraft II could be. Even the most hardened, jaded fan had to feel excitement when exposed to their brilliance. You knew you were witnessing history when watching Maru's and Life’s victories in Season 1 of the SSL and GSL. Dream ran it back in Season 2, returning to the finals of SSL, but had to settle for second best once more as Classic became the first Code S champion to triumph in another premier Korean league.



Meanwhile, Rain outgrew his reputation as the greatest defensive Protoss player of all time, transforming into a behemoth. Adept in every facet of the game, he became the first player to win Code S while a member of a foreign team, and the only one to do so before the fall of KeSPA.

KeSPA's big four once more found themselves on top of Proleague, with CJ Entus, KT Rolster, Jin Air and SK Telecom trading blows as the season progressed. SK Telecom’s perfect Round 3 culminated with a 4-3 win over Jin Air that had the crowds trading fan-chants so boisterous and fervent they will never be forgotten, the third consecutive defeat in the round finals for a daring Jin Air squad.


Statistics say barely anyone clicks links embedded in text, so here’s SK Telecom’s glorious win (and fanchants) in all their majesty


The rise of (Wiki)ByuL tinted the latter portion of 2015 in a different shade. Losing in the finals of Code S during Seasons 2 and 3, as well as Season 3 of SSL painted him as an undeniably tragic figure in the image of soO. But, it was his runs to those finals, which included uphill battles against mech, perfect mutalisk play, and the ability to execute any strategy under the sun against Protoss that was proof of his undeniable skill. Lastly, his emotion made him a hero. If Maru’s play earlier in the year had us visualizing the perfect player, ByuL’s tears, tears that moved Gyuri beyond words showed us the irresistible, human side of StarCraft II. And, yet, it was INnoVation who brought cold, ruthless, excellence back into focus at the end of the year, as he surgically destroyed ByuL in what would end up being his last premier tournament finals.

2015's solo tournaments had already made it the most action-packed year in StarCraft II’s history, but Proleague soiled us with the grandest of finales. sOs’ scored an impossible reverse all-kill in the first round of the Proleague playoffs, nudging Jin Air past Flash's KT. In the following round, Rogue’s banelings showered down on herO’s army, leaving the mouths of CJ fans on the floor while Jin Air fans roared in delight. Disbelief etched on his face, herO ceded the first ace match. Cursed to never be the star of the story, ByuL had to surrender the final GG of the series to sOs a day later, catapulting Jin Air into the Proleague finals for the first time.

The Proleague finals duel between SK Telecom and Jin Air will be remembered as the long awaited coronation of the most individually successful team in Korean StarCraft II history up to that point. SK Telecom had survived a roster revamp after their finals defeat a year earlier to become perhaps the strongest, most versatile team in the league’s history. The plucky Jin Air squad had done well to make it so far, but they would need another year of seasoning before they were truly championship quality. SK Telecom reclaimed the championship, with Classic closing out Trap in the final game.



Never again will we have a year quite like 2015. Never again will we feel its energy and experience its thrill. 2016 attempted to a facsimile of the same, but continued match-fixing scandals, the disbanding of teams, and the spectre of KeSPA's departure from SC2 were shadows that loomed over the scene.

*****

Five nights of StarCraft, three leagues, thrilling games and magnetic players. Back in 2015, we were so engulfed in everything going on that we never were able to step back and take a moment to appreciate our surroundings. It was impossible to grasp the scope and magnitude of the moment.

A lot has changed over the past half decade, but through thick and thin we’ve been able to rely on the twice weekly visits to the FreecUP Studio. Those who watch, whether it’s 5:30 am, lunch time, or early evening are at least subconsciously aware of the significance of watching Code S, how it's a pilgrimage we are fortunate to still call our own. StarCraft is different, but most of the old faces are still around and fighting. The bounty and yoke of KeSPA are long gone, but those who once fought under the banner of SKT or CJ Entus have long found ways to manage without their former patrons, and have sometimes found themselves fighting together wearing new heraldry on new battlefields.

For better or worse, this is our reality. The scene is smaller, but don’t make the mistake of thinking something is lessened simply because something is smaller. I’ve long been a pessimist, perhaps too preoccupied with thinking about the eventual end than finding joy in the present. StarCraft II is about those who play the game and those who support them. As long as you’re here it will never truly disappear. As long as people care it will hold a place in our hearts.

Still, as summer settles over a world that has become more uncertain than ever before, older fans of the game can’t help reminisce about crowded outdoor finals at Lotte World and Children’s Grand Park. About the battles between the rising superstar Dream and a still-pure Life. About the pain of watching ByuL fall just short each time, the terror of seeing INnoVation return to the supreme machine form, the bemusement of seeing soO win a semi-major title, and the respect of seeing sOs claim his second BlizzCon title at year's end.

Simply put, it’s impossible not to think back to 2015 when Korean StarCraft experienced its renaissance and we all watched in awe.





Credits and acknowledgements

Writer: Mizenhauer
Editors: Wax, TheOneAboveU
Images: LOUD CAST (formerly SpoTV Games)
Statistics and records: Aligulac.com and Liquipedia

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TL+ Member
TheOneAboveU
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Germany3367 Posts
August 01 2020 09:21 GMT
#2
What an amazing year this was, many good memories to be had. Especially as a big ByuL and Dream fan 2015 had me completely invested in everything.

I remember planning my university courses around the broadcast times every day, so I could always catch as much of the games as possible. Thanks for bringing me back to that, Mize!
Moderatoralias TripleM | @TL_TripleM | Big Dark Energy!
Edpayasugo
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom2212 Posts
August 01 2020 09:28 GMT
#3
Looking forward to reading this in full later, thank you, 2015 is my favourite year of Starcraft, Proleague was the best
FlaSh MMA INnoVation FanTaSy MKP TY Ryung | soO Dark Rogue | HuK PartinG Stork State
MinixTheNerd
Profile Joined July 2019
200 Posts
August 01 2020 09:55 GMT
#4
Yeah I share your thoughts exactly, part of me will miss that elite tier of korean pros back in the kespa days, it saddens me greatly to think that we may never again see that level in SC2. Even Code S now days for me is a shadow of its former self, back when winning it required facing the gauntlet of Code A qualifiers then into Code A and finally a chance at Code S.
ThePrince
Profile Joined October 2010
Peru331 Posts
August 01 2020 10:52 GMT
#5
"Life's short, infested Terrans, get to work already!" That was hilarious
SK_MC, ST_Parting, STX_Bogus fighting!!! Colossi should shoot nukes and blink.
SiegfriedSC
Profile Joined November 2019
9 Posts
August 01 2020 11:20 GMT
#6
Really good article. 2015 was a good year, I'll always remember it fondly for all the good sc2 we got. Thanks Mizenhauer.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24515 Posts
August 01 2020 12:54 GMT
#7
Beautiful, almost a painful read though, we’ll never have it so good again.

That said I don’t have the free time to grind through all that Starcraft either, even if it did return to that kind of crammed schedule.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ZAWGURN
Profile Joined July 2018
96 Posts
August 01 2020 14:26 GMT
#8
2015 was the year I first got into StarCraft esports, and boy was it a great year to get into it. I took a 1 year break and came back in 2016 and thinking “what happened to all the teams?”
CJ herO #1 fan.
Durnuu
Profile Joined September 2013
13319 Posts
August 01 2020 14:52 GMT
#9
Don't forget, lads, the korean scene is healthy as fuck
BUNNYYYYYYYYY https://i.imgur.com/BiCF577.png
Kazi25
Profile Joined July 2016
Philippines236 Posts
August 01 2020 15:12 GMT
#10
Oh yeah, this was the year when I started loving Korean scene as a whole, and watching them basically consumed every free time of my day. Before this, I only watch Life's games/brackets. (been more than 4 years already but it still hurts T_T )

rickzou
Profile Joined May 2019
46 Posts
August 01 2020 15:23 GMT
#11
goood old times
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2747 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-01 16:03:16
August 01 2020 16:02 GMT
#12
It was quite a shitty year to me. After a good start mech camping and 3bases blink make it so terrible, it's at this time I watched the game the least and basically stopped playing it.
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13969 Posts
August 01 2020 19:39 GMT
#13
What a great article Miz. It's nice to know some of your best work was created so recently
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Calliope
Profile Joined July 2018
297 Posts
August 01 2020 20:44 GMT
#14
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.
Clément 화이팅
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33238 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-01 20:48:29
August 01 2020 20:46 GMT
#15
On August 02 2020 05:44 Calliope wrote:
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.

you prolly mean (Wiki)sniper?

stuchiu put the "evil" thing on him because he was a BL-infestor abuser, he was the guy who beat Eve in GSTL and made her cry (it was actually SlayerS' fault for playing a sub-pro level player at all; anyone was going to destroy her), he beat a number of fan-favorites to ruin fan hype, and some other stuff I forget

[image loading]
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
August 01 2020 22:33 GMT
#16
Great article!
Calliope
Profile Joined July 2018
297 Posts
August 01 2020 22:43 GMT
#17
On August 02 2020 05:46 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 05:44 Calliope wrote:
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.

you prolly mean (Wiki)sniper?

stuchiu put the "evil" thing on him because he was a BL-infestor abuser, he was the guy who beat Eve in GSTL and made her cry (it was actually SlayerS' fault for playing a sub-pro level player at all; anyone was going to destroy her), he beat a number of fan-favorites to ruin fan hype, and some other stuff I forget



Hah, yes, ty, that's got to be it. This is what 2020 SC2 is lacking, a villain.
Clément 화이팅
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
687 Posts
August 01 2020 23:49 GMT
#18
On August 02 2020 07:43 Calliope wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 05:46 Waxangel wrote:
On August 02 2020 05:44 Calliope wrote:
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.

you prolly mean (Wiki)sniper?

stuchiu put the "evil" thing on him because he was a BL-infestor abuser, he was the guy who beat Eve in GSTL and made her cry (it was actually SlayerS' fault for playing a sub-pro level player at all; anyone was going to destroy her), he beat a number of fan-favorites to ruin fan hype, and some other stuff I forget



Hah, yes, ty, that's got to be it. This is what 2020 SC2 is lacking, a villain.

I think a few of the more trash talking Korean players play that role a bit, Dark was a foreigner villain as well for the longest time. The storyline just isn't as compelling though since the scene is so volatile alas
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
Solar424
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
United States4001 Posts
August 02 2020 01:23 GMT
#19
On August 02 2020 05:46 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 05:44 Calliope wrote:
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.

you prolly mean (Wiki)sniper?

stuchiu put the "evil" thing on him because he was a BL-infestor abuser, he was the guy who beat Eve in GSTL and made her cry (it was actually SlayerS' fault for playing a sub-pro level player at all; anyone was going to destroy her), he beat a number of fan-favorites to ruin fan hype, and some other stuff I forget

[image loading]

Also that was SlayerS' last night in existence and Sniper all-killed them unceremoniously. Also this:
[image loading]

didn't make people like him any more.

This article really emphasizes why I think Life should stay exiled from SC2. The Korean scene was on a rebound and then he and Gerrard had to go fuck it all up.
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13969 Posts
August 02 2020 02:03 GMT
#20
On August 02 2020 10:23 Solar424 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 05:46 Waxangel wrote:
On August 02 2020 05:44 Calliope wrote:
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.

you prolly mean (Wiki)sniper?

stuchiu put the "evil" thing on him because he was a BL-infestor abuser, he was the guy who beat Eve in GSTL and made her cry (it was actually SlayerS' fault for playing a sub-pro level player at all; anyone was going to destroy her), he beat a number of fan-favorites to ruin fan hype, and some other stuff I forget

[image loading]

Also that was SlayerS' last night in existence and Sniper all-killed them unceremoniously. Also this:
[image loading]

didn't make people like him any more.

This article really emphasizes why I think Life should stay exiled from SC2. The Korean scene was on a rebound and then he and Gerrard had to go fuck it all up.

poor Ryung
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
August 02 2020 02:34 GMT
#21
For better or worse, this is our reality. The scene is smaller, but don’t make the mistake of thinking something is lessened simply because something is smaller. I’ve long been a pessimist, perhaps too preoccupied with thinking about the eventual end than finding joy in the present. StarCraft II is about those who play the game and those who support them. As long as you’re here it will never truly disappear. As long as people care it will hold a place in our hearts.


Well put - whether or not the scene dies depends on all of us now. Don't be discouraged because the scene isn't as big as it used to be, be encouraged that we've lasted 10 years already. Carry on the flame!
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
starkiller123
Profile Joined January 2016
United States4030 Posts
August 02 2020 04:31 GMT
#22
Man 2015 Starcraft was the best, I probably watched the most games ever that year and I still couldn’t catch every single proleague or ssl game
Alucen-Will-
Profile Joined October 2014
United States4054 Posts
August 02 2020 06:31 GMT
#23
On August 02 2020 13:31 starkiller123 wrote:
Man 2015 Starcraft was the best, I probably watched the most games ever that year and I still couldn’t catch every single proleague or ssl game


Me too. I watched everything that year. Even prime proleague matches
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12762 Posts
August 02 2020 08:32 GMT
#24
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good
WriterMaru
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
August 02 2020 08:42 GMT
#25
On August 02 2020 07:43 Calliope wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 05:46 Waxangel wrote:
On August 02 2020 05:44 Calliope wrote:
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.

you prolly mean (Wiki)sniper?

stuchiu put the "evil" thing on him because he was a BL-infestor abuser, he was the guy who beat Eve in GSTL and made her cry (it was actually SlayerS' fault for playing a sub-pro level player at all; anyone was going to destroy her), he beat a number of fan-favorites to ruin fan hype, and some other stuff I forget



Hah, yes, ty, that's got to be it. This is what 2020 SC2 is lacking, a villain.

I think Rogue is close to that role but he probably still has too many fans for that.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
August 02 2020 09:30 GMT
#26
On August 02 2020 07:43 Calliope wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 05:46 Waxangel wrote:
On August 02 2020 05:44 Calliope wrote:
Sorry for a bit of a derail, but speaking of the good old days, does anyone remember that there was a player that people used to joke about being evil? A Korean, probably before 2015 (between 2010-2012 iirc). When he won people would draw his eyes red and write things like "evil wins" etc. Thinking back to it now I find it kind of hilarious that some poor guy was deemed to be evil but I just can't remember who it was.

you prolly mean (Wiki)sniper?

stuchiu put the "evil" thing on him because he was a BL-infestor abuser, he was the guy who beat Eve in GSTL and made her cry (it was actually SlayerS' fault for playing a sub-pro level player at all; anyone was going to destroy her), he beat a number of fan-favorites to ruin fan hype, and some other stuff I forget



Hah, yes, ty, that's got to be it. This is what 2020 SC2 is lacking, a villain.


Lacking a villain? The way I see it, the last blizzcon had three out of four villains in the ro4. Our great hero Classic was the only reason why the four supervillains didn't sweep the tournament. Really these four are the true Four Horsemen, heralding the end of everything that is good in this world.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24515 Posts
August 02 2020 11:46 GMT
#27
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good

Alas the stars never align for SC. There are times when the tournament scene and depth of players was at its healthiest and the enjoyability was close to its lowest.

Some of that was due to players not figuring everything out of course, and SC2 has still always been a great competitive RTS.

Unrealistic to have all we have now being crammed in 10 years ago I guess, things could have been even bigger if we had more that we have now. The UI is way more polished, even if I still prefer Bnet 1. Co-op seems a great way for people who don’t want to commit to the competitive grind to get into the game etc etc.

Playing older campaigns even really brings into perspective how much more polished things are now, siege tanks and Immortals are way more intuitive to micro and control. Ok it’s not super common that this becomes a factor but it does feel nicer and I know the community had asked for that years and years ago.

Here’s to another 10 years hopefully! Or at least 5 with a prospect of SC3
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Alucen-Will-
Profile Joined October 2014
United States4054 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-02 16:28:23
August 02 2020 16:21 GMT
#28
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good


I have no idea when I hear this type of discussion. The blink era was season 1 2014. HOTS was clearly a better game than Wings and the level of play in Korea at the time was really at its peak with the Kespa teams and two individual leagues running simultaneously alongside Proleague

I've watched Starcraft II for 9 years now and 2015 was definitely one of the peak years for hardcore fans because of the quality and quantity of games in Korea at the time.

There was so much quality content it was difficult to keep up at all. Even if you watched every morning of the week for months on end there seemed to be another great match on the horizon.

Comparing to the 2015 scene to the scene today is difficult, but I think the thinning of player talent has hurt the professional scene in Korea quite a bit. Losing many top players and many more mid-tier players really hurts the scene as a whole in my opinion.

Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13969 Posts
August 02 2020 17:24 GMT
#29
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good

Article
SC2 was great because of all the koreans leagues, and dream maru and life trading insane series after insane serirs
Poopi
dUh BluNK
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3340 Posts
August 02 2020 18:48 GMT
#30
I might have the dates wrong, but I definitely remember this time as the SC2 dark ages. Many things were moving around in Korea, yes, but foreigner level was really bad. MorroW stream was carrying this time hard, or you'd have to watch Avilo or WinterSC at night.. The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now. I will say that both EU and Kr is too top heavy, but what we have now is so much more healthy. Koreans are allowed to stream and play online, so we have more content too. 2014 had some really magical tournament moments. WCS EU was a really good broadcast and we had Grubby stream. So yeah. I dno.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17628 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-02 20:07:00
August 02 2020 19:52 GMT
#31
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Luolis
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Finland7099 Posts
August 02 2020 19:54 GMT
#32
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses.

Yeah, it's not like Serral played the game in 2015 ":D"
pro cheese woman / Its never Sunny in Finland. Perkele / FinnishStarcraftTrivia
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17628 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-02 19:59:03
August 02 2020 19:58 GMT
#33
On August 03 2020 04:54 Luolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses.

Yeah, it's not like Serral played the game in 2015 ":D"

remembering 2015 and practicing in 2015 are completely different things, you need to actually practice to get good again, he wasn't even that good back then so idk how recalling how he played in 2015 would help him that much.
"Expert" mods4ever.com
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12762 Posts
August 02 2020 20:05 GMT
#34
On August 03 2020 02:24 Cricketer12 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good

Article
SC2 was great because of all the koreans leagues, and dream maru and life trading insane series after insane serirs
Poopi
dUh BluNK

There were korean leagues in 2016 as well and LotV was just a better game for all of its lifespan than HotS ever was imo.
But yeah the article is cool, korean leagues are the most interesting that's for sure.
WriterMaru
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3340 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-02 20:41:51
August 02 2020 20:30 GMT
#35
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
August 02 2020 21:30 GMT
#36
Amazing article, for me really any period of proleague was the golden era of SC2. Proleague was my drug I loved it so so much and I miss it, warchest teamleague is the closest I've seen to get me back to the same hype but its till a ways off.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Morbidius
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil3449 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-03 01:49:48
August 03 2020 01:49 GMT
#37
2015 was SC2's golden age and it sadly flew too close to the sun, with matchfixing and Kespa ensuring it crashed down. Some people who came along in the last few years will never understand why everyone doesn't worship the vultures that feast on this corpse as GOATs and bonjwas, but deep down everyone knows why someone won GSL 4 times in a row and why a foreigner won Blizzcon. Its simply because its easier than ever.
Has foreign StarCraft hit rock bottom?
Edpayasugo
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom2212 Posts
August 03 2020 08:15 GMT
#38
A great nostalgia trip, thank you.
FlaSh MMA INnoVation FanTaSy MKP TY Ryung | soO Dark Rogue | HuK PartinG Stork State
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
August 03 2020 08:47 GMT
#39
On August 03 2020 05:05 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 02:24 Cricketer12 wrote:
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good

Article
SC2 was great because of all the koreans leagues, and dream maru and life trading insane series after insane serirs
Poopi
dUh BluNK

There were korean leagues in 2016 as well and LotV was just a better game for all of its lifespan than HotS ever was imo.
But yeah the article is cool, korean leagues are the most interesting that's for sure.

The game in 2016 was shit with tankivacs, mass Reapers, mass Adepts, 4 supply mass Tempest spam and Ultras that got healed by marine bullets...
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
August 03 2020 08:49 GMT
#40
On August 03 2020 05:30 ejozl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.

Well then we agree to disagree here.
Dream vs Life is still the highest level series I have watched to this date.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13969 Posts
August 03 2020 20:46 GMT
#41
On August 03 2020 17:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 05:30 ejozl wrote:
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.

Well then we agree to disagree here.
Dream vs Life is still the highest level series I have watched to this date.

I would agree.
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
August 04 2020 00:58 GMT
#42
On August 03 2020 05:30 ejozl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.

Even though 5 years is a lot of time to improve, the top players back in 2015 had also all been pros for at least 5 years before then. Some even longer.

Add the that the level of practice these guys were getting when there were like 3x the number of korean pros, and most of them were in kespa houses. The builds those guys were doing were customed and optimised pretty much as well as you could with the game being how it was. I don't think there's much reason to believe any top korean pros now are playing better than they were 5 years ago.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
August 04 2020 01:08 GMT
#43
On August 03 2020 17:47 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 05:05 Poopi wrote:
On August 03 2020 02:24 Cricketer12 wrote:
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good

Article
SC2 was great because of all the koreans leagues, and dream maru and life trading insane series after insane serirs
Poopi
dUh BluNK

There were korean leagues in 2016 as well and LotV was just a better game for all of its lifespan than HotS ever was imo.
But yeah the article is cool, korean leagues are the most interesting that's for sure.

The game in 2016 was shit with tankivacs, mass Reapers, mass Adepts, 4 supply mass Tempest spam and Ultras that got healed by marine bullets...

Don't forget pylon cannons and maps like Dasan Station.

To be honest 2015 wasn't great in terms of game design either. But it definitely produced the highest level of competition and gameplay between pros.

Maru, herO, and Life were the best players of their races while also being the most entertaining. Rain, INnoVation, soO, and Zest were all still winning championships. Even the next generation of elites (Dark, Stats, TY) had broken out and were making it deep. Even PartinG was in his prime.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 04 2020 04:55 GMT
#44
Good writeup and good reminiscing. Except for broodlord+infestor. Those aren't good memories. Broodlord infestor and swarm host wars aren't the SC2 memories I want in 2030.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
1-Larry
Profile Joined August 2020
4 Posts
August 04 2020 06:54 GMT
#45
The release of sc2 was so unnecessary it even killed broodwar for some years. David Kim failed hard and the whole company failing even harder till this day.. Nuff said
Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4902 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-04 13:58:01
August 04 2020 13:57 GMT
#46
2015 was the year I got hooked up in the SC2 pro scene. No wonder why.
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
TL+ Member
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2747 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-04 15:05:45
August 04 2020 15:01 GMT
#47
On August 03 2020 02:24 Cricketer12 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good

Article
SC2 was great because of all the koreans leagues, and dream maru and life trading insane series after insane serirs
Poopi
dUh BluNK


Well, no matter what the structures are, if the game are shits (and oh god they were, the 2015 blizzcon really showcase awful stuff, Life advancing just with tricks because it was the only way as a zerg) I just don't watch.
A year of mech and blink dominance doesn't make me nostalgic in the slightest.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24515 Posts
August 04 2020 15:16 GMT
#48
On August 04 2020 09:58 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 05:30 ejozl wrote:
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.

Even though 5 years is a lot of time to improve, the top players back in 2015 had also all been pros for at least 5 years before then. Some even longer.

Add the that the level of practice these guys were getting when there were like 3x the number of korean pros, and most of them were in kespa houses. The builds those guys were doing were customed and optimised pretty much as well as you could with the game being how it was. I don't think there's much reason to believe any top korean pros now are playing better than they were 5 years ago.

I think they both are and they aren’t.

If SC2 was quite as demanding as BW then perhaps. Still very demanding, but I don’t think you have to grind mechanics out quite as hard.

One obvious problem is more the next generation. The current top guys don’t have the coming generation to push them to stay at the top of the game, so perhaps there’s some complacency there too. And not just complacency, boredom too, some of these guys have been playing the same game for 7-10 years and the hunger might not be quite the same for them. In BW that decline in appetite would be ruthlessly seized by the next generation, who would quickly supplant their more decorated elders. You don’t really have that now.

Optimised and tailored strategies have declined a little, equally so have the tournaments that require them. We got to see more of them with an extra Starleague and Proleague for sure.

For weekenders, or just a general high level of skill it seems much the same to me, or higher in areas. The areas it is higher I would argue are just years of extra experience, and the pace of improvement would have possibly been higher still with the Kespa scene still intact.

There’s also more cross-pollination of ideas and strategies across the scenes, but equally within the Korean scene too. The top guys are more free to practice together and players with appreciable English or links to the foreign scene feed stuff back to Korea in a way that maybe didn’t happen when it was considered the Kespa way was the only way.

The foreign scene has a lot of good ideas, even if it’s purely theoretical that the Korean scene has maybe historically neglected investigating fully. With more porous borders some of the better theorycraft is polished with the Korean mechanical chops.

It’s only one example, and I took a pretty long hiatus but coming back and having watched Serral’s stream for example, where he uses the mouse scroll a lot over screen scrolling.

I don’t recall high level players using that technique before but it clearly has a lot of theoretical advantages (with some drawback), so people are still pushing what’s efficient and optimal to this day.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
egrimm
Profile Joined September 2011
Poland1199 Posts
August 04 2020 16:36 GMT
#49
On August 04 2020 10:08 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 17:47 Charoisaur wrote:
On August 03 2020 05:05 Poopi wrote:
On August 03 2020 02:24 Cricketer12 wrote:
On August 02 2020 17:32 Poopi wrote:
Wasn’t 2015 mostly HotS AND blink era? No thanks then, even though there were lot of leagues the game just wasn’t good

Article
SC2 was great because of all the koreans leagues, and dream maru and life trading insane series after insane serirs
Poopi
dUh BluNK

There were korean leagues in 2016 as well and LotV was just a better game for all of its lifespan than HotS ever was imo.
But yeah the article is cool, korean leagues are the most interesting that's for sure.

The game in 2016 was shit with tankivacs, mass Reapers, mass Adepts, 4 supply mass Tempest spam and Ultras that got healed by marine bullets...

Don't forget pylon cannons and maps like Dasan Station.


Yeah the beginning of LotV was even worse than the beginning of HotS imho
I hated a lot of changes that were brought with the last expansion especially 12 workers start, takivacs, adepts and libs.
However as with HotS, LotV has gotten steadily better and I can see why people think that it is the best version of sc2 now - but it certainly wasn't at its' day of release.

2015 was great. Proleague + GSL + SSL combo was delivering superb games and Fantasy PL was pure gold.
Thanks for the article, nice read and a lot of memories
sOs TY PartinG
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-06 12:17:21
August 06 2020 12:16 GMT
#50
On August 04 2020 09:58 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2020 05:30 ejozl wrote:
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.

Even though 5 years is a lot of time to improve, the top players back in 2015 had also all been pros for at least 5 years before then. Some even longer.

Add the that the level of practice these guys were getting when there were like 3x the number of korean pros, and most of them were in kespa houses. The builds those guys were doing were customed and optimised pretty much as well as you could with the game being how it was. I don't think there's much reason to believe any top korean pros now are playing better than they were 5 years ago.

Now the players are better than they were. This is the stupidest move IMO - comparing the plaeyrs with years of difference. Unless the game totally crashes and bankcrupts the players will be better. But taking an old player and saying he wouldn't have a chance today - duh, he doesnt know the game since the player wasn't bloody playing the god damn game for 5 years!

Now, to the bigger issue. Back then we have many behemoths of the top play. Maru, soO, Life, Zest, Inno, TY, Dark, Rogue, Soulkey, herO, ByuL, Classic and some I forgot. (edit> somehow I deleted Rain, I wouldn't forget my most beloved SC2 Protoss )

Now? Maru, Dark, Stats, Rogue, Zest, Inno, TY. The issue is nowadays half of the players appear to not even try properly. The best example is Rogue, probably the most unpredictable player in the terms of form. Back then Rogue was a beast every time. There was a reason why Maru, Rogue and sOs costed so much in the Fantasy Proleague
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2747 Posts
August 06 2020 15:07 GMT
#51
On August 06 2020 21:16 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2020 09:58 Fango wrote:
On August 03 2020 05:30 ejozl wrote:
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.

Even though 5 years is a lot of time to improve, the top players back in 2015 had also all been pros for at least 5 years before then. Some even longer.

Add the that the level of practice these guys were getting when there were like 3x the number of korean pros, and most of them were in kespa houses. The builds those guys were doing were customed and optimised pretty much as well as you could with the game being how it was. I don't think there's much reason to believe any top korean pros now are playing better than they were 5 years ago.

Now the players are better than they were. This is the stupidest move IMO - comparing the plaeyrs with years of difference. Unless the game totally crashes and bankcrupts the players will be better. But taking an old player and saying he wouldn't have a chance today - duh, he doesnt know the game since the player wasn't bloody playing the god damn game for 5 years!

Now, to the bigger issue. Back then we have many behemoths of the top play. Maru, soO, Life, Zest, Inno, TY, Dark, Rogue, Soulkey, herO, ByuL, Classic and some I forgot. (edit> somehow I deleted Rain, I wouldn't forget my most beloved SC2 Protoss )

Now? Maru, Dark, Stats, Rogue, Zest, Inno, TY. The issue is nowadays half of the players appear to not even try properly. The best example is Rogue, probably the most unpredictable player in the terms of form. Back then Rogue was a beast every time. There was a reason why Maru, Rogue and sOs costed so much in the Fantasy Proleague


Exactly, the players might be better but the game is sadly less competitive in Korea.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
August 06 2020 15:47 GMT
#52
On August 06 2020 21:16 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2020 09:58 Fango wrote:
On August 03 2020 05:30 ejozl wrote:
On August 03 2020 04:52 Die4Ever wrote:
On August 03 2020 03:48 ejozl wrote:
The level in Korea was high, yes, but even Life, Dream and PartinG of that era would die to Serral now.

Doubt it. Serral would have to practice the game in 2015 to learn the build orders and get used to everything like 6 worker start and different units and all sorts of balance changes. Once he does any practice in 2015, KeSPA with all their players and coaches would see his replays and take whatever lessons they can learn from the future knowledge. It's not like he could just show up in 2015 and win a GSL. Remember that many of the balance changes were designed to make skilled players appear even more impressive. Also I think korean players were more in-shape back then, they practiced more and lived in teamhouses and had coaches.

I think players like Dream, DRG, Parting coming back, and GSL shrinking down to just 24 players instead of 32, is showing that 2019 really was not the highest skill era and neither is 2020. Even Byun showed this a bit, I mean if he was so good and skill of the scene only goes upwards, then why didn't he dominate back in 2010 and 2011?

I didn't make up a story about him going back and beating them, I'm comparing his skill with theirs. I think preparation was much stronger back then and players were under strict regiments to try and eek out as much of their performance as possible for short-term benefits. 5 years is a LOT to hone your finger dexterity and feeling of the game though and with practice comes expertise. But as I said there certainly is not the same depth as it is spread out on EU and Kr instead. But for top level play it's best to compare the rivalries I think. Life vs Dream, Life vs PartinG, Life vs TaeJa I feel were the highest levels we'd seen and Reynor vs Serral is above that as I see it.

Even though 5 years is a lot of time to improve, the top players back in 2015 had also all been pros for at least 5 years before then. Some even longer.

Add the that the level of practice these guys were getting when there were like 3x the number of korean pros, and most of them were in kespa houses. The builds those guys were doing were customed and optimised pretty much as well as you could with the game being how it was. I don't think there's much reason to believe any top korean pros now are playing better than they were 5 years ago.

Now the players are better than they were. This is the stupidest move IMO - comparing the plaeyrs with years of difference. Unless the game totally crashes and bankcrupts the players will be better. But taking an old player and saying he wouldn't have a chance today - duh, he doesnt know the game since the player wasn't bloody playing the god damn game for 5 years!

Now, to the bigger issue. Back then we have many behemoths of the top play. Maru, soO, Life, Zest, Inno, TY, Dark, Rogue, Soulkey, herO, ByuL, Classic and some I forgot. (edit> somehow I deleted Rain, I wouldn't forget my most beloved SC2 Protoss )

Now? Maru, Dark, Stats, Rogue, Zest, Inno, TY. The issue is nowadays half of the players appear to not even try properly. The best example is Rogue, probably the most unpredictable player in the terms of form. Back then Rogue was a beast every time. There was a reason why Maru, Rogue and sOs costed so much in the Fantasy Proleague

Inno and especially Zest are currently a shadow of their former selfes so I'm not sure I'd include them in that list.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
rednusa
Profile Joined October 2012
651 Posts
October 15 2020 13:18 GMT
#53
On August 01 2020 23:26 ZAWGURN wrote:
2015 was the year I first got into StarCraft esports, and boy was it a great year to get into it. I took a 1 year break and came back in 2016 and thinking “what happened to all the teams?”


Proleague was running up until September 2016. All the KeSPA teams disbanded after that - except JAGW.
AntiHack
Profile Joined January 2009
Switzerland553 Posts
October 17 2020 02:04 GMT
#54
What this site turned into? What are all this lies of BW being imbalanced and sc2 being popular in Korea?



User was temp banned for this post.
"I am very tired of your grammar errors" - Zoler[MB]
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