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On August 06 2020 22:50 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 22:45 Luolis wrote:On August 06 2020 22:43 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:31 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:27 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:24 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:21 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 13:36 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote:
Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem. So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region. I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in. That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then. That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication. It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players. Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better. Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority. Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone. I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice.
But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown.
If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions :
Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive.
Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul".
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On August 06 2020 22:45 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 22:43 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:31 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:27 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:24 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:21 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 13:36 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote:
Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem. So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region. I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in. That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then. That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication. It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players. Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better. Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority. Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I feel like at this point the main problem is that some Australians think, the whole qualifier is only for Australia. I mean, they clearly don t see Singapore as part of their region (Spoiler: wich it actuallly is).
This "I don t want to play on sg" is like Neeb (from NA east) saying, he doesn t want to play on NA central when playing Astrea(from NA West).
+ Show Spoiler +I hope I remembered their regions corretly, I m not super familiar with the NA scene
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On August 07 2020 00:03 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 22:50 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:45 Luolis wrote:On August 06 2020 22:43 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:31 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:27 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:24 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:21 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 13:36 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote:
Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem. So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region. I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in. That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then. That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication. It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players. Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better. Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority. Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone. I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice. But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown. If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul".
"Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On August 07 2020 00:39 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2020 22:45 Luolis wrote:On August 06 2020 22:43 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:31 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:27 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:24 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:21 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 13:36 dbRic1203 wrote:On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote:
Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem. So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region. I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in. That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then. That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication. It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players. Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better. Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority. Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone. I feel like at this point the main problem is that some Australians think, the whole qualifier is only for Australia. I mean, they clearly don t see Singapore as part of their region (Spoiler: wich it actuallly is). This "I don t want to play on sg" is like Neeb (from NA east) saying, he doesn t want to play on NA central when playing Astrea(from NA West). + Show Spoiler +I hope I remembered their regions corretly, I m not super familiar with the NA scene
That's not true. The Australians haven't been complaining about the non-Australian players who are actually in the region though (e.g Blysk), only the Europeans. For Blysk and most of the others they do alternate between Singapore and Australia though, rather than all Singapore for Risky. I guess against Demi it would also be all Singapore?
Though the issue isn't really about the server, and more so that they just don't want third tier Europeans farming their region. I guess they want ESL to decide that the server that should be used is always the one that's best for the people who are actually in the region.
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On August 07 2020 04:23 Psychonian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2020 00:03 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:50 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:45 Luolis wrote:On August 06 2020 22:43 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:31 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:27 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:24 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:21 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 13:36 dbRic1203 wrote:
[quote]
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship?
That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all.
LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region. I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in. That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then. That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication. It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players. Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better. Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority. Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone. I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice. But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown. If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul". "Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is.
Haha
That's not my main point but considering your reading comprehension, I understand a "lul" and "no to invaders" seem way more eloquent to you.
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On August 07 2020 05:10 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2020 04:23 Psychonian wrote:On August 07 2020 00:03 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:50 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:45 Luolis wrote:On August 06 2020 22:43 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:31 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:27 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:24 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:21 ytherik wrote:
[quote]
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in. That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then. That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication. It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players. Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better. Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority. Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone. I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice. But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown. If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul". "Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is. Haha That's not my point but considering your reading comprehension, I understand a "lul" and "no to invaders" seem way more eloquent to you.
It isn't directly the argument you're making, but it's a pretty big factor in what your argument appears to be, which is as far as I can tell "if Risky is beating them on Singapore, that's on them for not being good enough to beat him", which is all you've said about the specific situation being discussed that isn't three different instances of you saying basically that Aus players are bad and are lucky to have support from WCS/ESL in the first place.
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I seriously just don't understand how "if he's playing in aus tournaments from halfway across the world, he should have to play on aus servers" is such a controversial statement
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On August 07 2020 05:36 Psychonian wrote:
I seriously just don't understand how "if he's playing in aus tournaments from halfway across the world, he should have to play on aus servers" is such a controversial statement
Yeah it's basic common sense. It's also the default until changed otherwise for a good reason.
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On August 07 2020 05:36 Psychonian wrote:
I seriously just don't understand how "if he's playing in aus tournaments from halfway across the world, he should have to play on aus servers" is such a controversial statement
Maybe you should read the thread, its not just an Australian tournament.
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On August 07 2020 05:18 Psychonian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2020 05:10 stilt wrote:On August 07 2020 04:23 Psychonian wrote:On August 07 2020 00:03 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:50 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:45 Luolis wrote:On August 06 2020 22:43 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:31 stilt wrote:On August 06 2020 22:27 ytherik wrote:On August 06 2020 22:24 stilt wrote:
[quote]
That's totally fucked up.
It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then. That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication. It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players. Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better. Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority. Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone. I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice. But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown. If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul". "Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is. Haha That's not my point but considering your reading comprehension, I understand a "lul" and "no to invaders" seem way more eloquent to you. It isn't directly the argument you're making, but it's a pretty big factor in what your argument appears to be, which is as far as I can tell "if Risky is beating them on Singapore, that's on them for not being good enough to beat him", which is all you've said about the specific situation being discussed that isn't three different instances of you saying basically that Aus players are bad and are lucky to have support from WCS/ESL in the first place.
Ok my answer was rude and childish so sorry, I originally thought you were of bad faith as I definetly had other arguments contrary to what you were saying.
So I will repeat and try to be clearer : Basically, the australian community brings the argument of their need of growth against Risky who is competiting in their tournament.
Firstly, I think this is quite stupid because Risky's presence seems to fuel a lot of motivation accros the scene.
Secondly the 2 solutions they are proposing (residency only or server advantage) are bads for the following reason : in the end, the main goal is still to select the best player of the region, it is not only about the growth of the scene.
Especially in the first solution, Special would make more money and could attain katowice only if he goes back to latm which will affect his growth as a player. And even if the second solution is less radical, I still think everything should be made in order that the competition is fair for everybody from the time the player is eligible regardless of his location and that penalyzing a player like Special who is so dedicated that he goes to train in Korea is just terrible.
Thirdly, the argument of growth is valid but let's not forget this is still about competition and progamer, the goal is still that the best citizen from each regions go to the season finals.
Finally, I indeed wonder why so much ressources should be located here, that might be because I think the reaction of the australian community quite pitiful but imo I think they should merge with Taiwan, Has will adjust this Risky problem.
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EPT
