There seems to be a lot of strong feelings surrounding Riskys participation in DH Masters Oceania. Can someone explain to me, why his situation is any different from let s say Kelazhur? No one seems to be upset about him choosing LatAm over NA or EU
Edit 1: I personally think, it s absolutly fine in both cases to play there, becasue they have the passports of those regions. I don t know what I think about the suggestions changing the rules to be only based on residency. It would defnatly be fair for Koreans, if foreigners actually had to choose between their DH Master and GSL and couldn t just compete in both. But that would also mean, than LatAm would be striped of their 2 most prominent players, as they couldn t compete there anymore.
I get it, that some people got upset about the server rules, though. We had the same discussion here regarding TSL qualifier server rules and that seems to be a hot topic every single time cross server play is an issue. Nevertheless Singapure still counts as an Oceania server, no?
On June 29 2020 20:37 RiSkysc2 wrote: A few things i want to clear up:
I did express to the admins that i thought seithers "lul" was bad mannered and unsportsmanlike when they brought it up in our group chat (they didn't seem to be quite clear on whether it was BM or not) but i wouldn't say i "complained to them", i didn't go out of my way to get seither "punished" or anything like that.
i didn't "force" singapore, they never asked to play any other servers / i made sure they were okay with playing singapore.
they never played on 300-400 ping to singapore, if they did get a bad singapore server they immediately rehosted and the ping returned to the normal 50-110ms range.
I played on a consistent 180-210 ping throughout the tournament.
As to whether it's fair that they only get a 100-150 ping advantage, that's down to personal opinion. I believe it's absolutely correct that i should get some disadvantage for playing in a region that i don't reside in, that makes sense. As to how much of a disadvantage? not sure, if australia was the only server i could play on that would be a 350-400 ping to 0 disadvantage. is that fair? i don't know, it's up to ESL to decide.
I also would like to comment on "contributing to the scene":
I tried to contribute to the ANZ scene. I played in some leagues and a teamleague for the region and spent quite a bit of my own money to travel to the offline finals of that team league and an offline tournament. At this tournament i was told straight to my face that they hated me. To be clear, some people were nice, and i appreciate those people for being welcoming (they know who they are), but the majority obviously didn't want me there, and didn't make much effort to hide it.
After the offline tournament, they said that i just came to the event to "steal more of their money" even though the event most likely was going to be a loss for me financially. Going into the event i was expecting to lose money on it, i went anyway because i wanted to reach out and try and be part of the scene i was competing in.
They have never asked me for practice, i even extended an offer to them for practice but of course, they never contacted me. Whenever anyone in the scene has messaged me asking for advice i have always given them as much as i could.
So what am i meant to do? i've made the effort and it's been rejected, why i would i want to contribute and be part of a scene that spits in my face?
On June 29 2020 20:37 RiSkysc2 wrote: i didn't "force" singapore, they never asked to play any other servers / i made sure they were okay with playing singapore.
By choosing SWA as your "out of region" sub-region, you are ONLY playing SG server, with no exceptions or server swapping.
The whole "sub-region" rulings are nuts for a region as diverse and large as SEA (RiSky situation notwithstanding), with rules that can be abused in other situations to disadvantage the regional players.
I ve put both sides in the OP and will stop doing so, if there is further discussion in this thread, unless there are major new insight into the matter.
Edit 7(05.08.20) : Teebul and Razerblader also choose to play in the RoA/ Oceania Part of DH for the Fall Tournament
Edit 8: To me it at this point it looks like, that many of the Australian players see the Oceania/ rest of Asia Cup soley as an Australian Cup. When some of them don t even realise, that Singapure is actualy part of their region and they don t play on a non region server there, it s no wonder, they are so upset about it:
Edit 9 (15.08.): Riskys final saying in the matter:
Edit 10 (17.08.): Diskussion on the Pylon Show with Wardi, Maynarde, ZombieGrub and Catz:
Kelazhur is (or at the very least was) part of the Latam community even though he lives in the Netherlands now. Which means he isn't seen in the same light as Risky who has New Zealand citizenship but really doesn't have any ties to the Oceania Starcraft community. Risky is just seen as a European player who's using dual citizenship to farm a weaker region.
And he's also dominating the SEA/OCE players. There might be grumbling about Ryu the Italian/Peruvian player, but he's less successful so it's not to the same degree.
The core point of contention is that RiSKy is a dual British/New Zealand citizen, and has opted to use his NZ citizenship to compete in the OCE region due to it being much less competitive than Europe. Nationality/permanent residence visas have been the requirement for eligibility since WCS 2015, when the "hard" region-lock was introduced. (There are also some minor complaints about the EPT rules for server selection in cross-region matches, but that's the gist of it)
The WCS rules allowed for several different kinds of cross-regional play, such as SpeCIal living in Korea and playing in LATAM, TRUE and Polt moving to the USA to compete in WCS America, or players like Winter and ButAlways playing in the regions where they were studying abroad (I won't get into the minutae about the rules). However, I don't recall there being a player in RiSKy's specific situation, of using dual citizenship to compete in a region where they did not reside, and being good enough to immediately become the #1 player of that region.
On June 29 2020 15:05 Waxangel wrote: The core point of contention is that RiSKy is a dual British/New Zealand citizen, and has opted to use his NZ citizenship to compete in the OCE region due to it being much less competitive than Europe. Nationality/permanent residence visas have been the requirement for eligibility since WCS 2015, when the "hard" region-lock was introduced. (There are also some minor complaints about the EPT rules for server selection in cross-region matches, but that's the gist of it)
Do we know on what server this was played? He should have been at a disadvantage lag-wise right? Seems fair to me
EDIT: On what server do ppl form Australia / New Zealand normally play? Do they even have own Oceania servers?
There is no controversy as far as I am concerned. Risky isn't breaking any rules or laws by opting to compete in a weaker region, he's realistic about his almost non-existant chance of having a good result in EU and he's doing what's best for him.
Stephano regularly uses his dual French-Tunisian citizenship to play in some African qualifiers, I don't recall people making a fuss about it.
Outside of esport, it's quite common for athletes with dual citizenship to elect to play for their "lesser" national team if they know they have no chance of being selected to the better one. Again, who could blame them?
You could argue that people having access to dual citizenship do benefit from some unfair advantages, but I don't see how you can put the blame on the people lawfully benefiting from it.
Indeed, the only argument that can be made at this point is that there needs to be rule-changes for upcoming events. Risky did nothing wrong, he benefited from the current situation. And i'm not even sure what rules could be made that bar Risky from AU, but allow Special and Khelazur to compete in Latin-american region.
The problem here is not that Risky is playing in OCE as he is just doing what any player in a similar situation would do. As a pro you always seek to gain an advantage over your opponents and that's what Risky is doing.
The problem is that the organization allows him to do it in the first place since he doesn't live in NZ nor contribute to growing the OCE scene. For a lot of people this feels a lot like when the Korean went to EU and NA before the regionlock.
On June 29 2020 15:05 Waxangel wrote: However, I don't recall there being a player in RiSKy's specific situation, of using dual citizenship to compete in a region where they did not reside, and being good enough to immediately become the #1 player of that region.
There was such case with Stephano using his tunisian citizenship to qualify for WESG but that's a bit different I think
On June 29 2020 15:05 Waxangel wrote: The core point of contention is that RiSKy is a dual British/New Zealand citizen, and has opted to use his NZ citizenship to compete in the OCE region due to it being much less competitive than Europe. Nationality/permanent residence visas have been the requirement for eligibility since WCS 2015, when the "hard" region-lock was introduced. (There are also some minor complaints about the EPT rules for server selection in cross-region matches, but that's the gist of it)
Do we know on what server this was played? He should have been at a disadvantage lag-wise right? Seems fair to me
EDIT: On what server do ppl form Australia / New Zealand normally play? Do they even have own Oceania servers?
There are two servers in the region SEA/OCE region, the Australian server and the Singapore server. It looks like games between Risky and Australian players were all played on the Singapore server which should (assuming no ISP related problems) give something like a 50 ping advantage to the Australian.
On June 29 2020 15:39 fastr wrote: There is no controversy as far as I am concerned. Risky isn't breaking any rules or laws by opting to compete in a weaker region, he's realistic about his almost non-existant chance of having a good result in EU and he's doing what's best for him.
Stephano regularly uses his dual French-Tunisian citizenship to play in some African qualifiers, I don't recall people making a fuss about it.
Outside of esport, it's quite common for athletes with dual citizenship to elect to play for their "lesser" national team if they know they have no chance of being selected to the better one. Again, who could blame them?
You could argue that people having access to dual citizenship do benefit from some unfair advantages, but I don't see how you can put the blame on the people lawfully benefiting from it.
There was some fuss over Stephano's Tunisian citizenship though not as much considering the African SCII scene is nearly non-existent. And some fuss over similar issues like Heromarine taking an Italian spot at WESG and so on. Some people in Oceania are more vocal about this that's all. And the fact that Risky isn't breaking any rules doesn't mean there's no controversy or that rules couldn't be changed. I'm sure some Australians would like ESL to change the rules to have some sort of residency requirement.
As an Australian let me try and explain the situation.
So yeah, we feel like RiSky is kind of exploiting us for his own gain, but that's fine. That's competition and those are the rules, it's intelligent to do what benefits him. Don't hate the player, hate the game, etc.
What the actual problem is, is the server rules. Currently due to the rules, when an Australian player (such as Probe or Seither) plays RiSky, they are FORCED by the rules to play on the Singapore server, which is what the Australian players is mad about. RiSky gets about 200 ping to Singapore as stated by him on Twitter. That's about what most Australian players get (myself included), but the Singapore server is notorious for being spiky and shitty. 200 is the norm, but depending on the day it is known to go up to 300 or even 400 ping for Australian players. People are furious that RiSky is getting a perceived advantage despite the fact that he's playing in OUR tournament. If he wants to take the easy money and play in a different region he should have to play on our terms. There is a lot of bitterness towards him, exacerbated by the camp that feels he shouldn't be able to play in our region at all.
Lots of concerned Australian players talked to the admins about the servers before the qualifiers began, but due to the high volume of players from countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, etc, the default server for these qualifiers is the Singapore server, rather than the Australian server.
We've had players like TargA and KingKong from overseas play in Australian tournaments before, but unlike RiSky, those two were living in Australia, participating in all our LANs and local events, similarly to how in 2013 the Koreans who moved to Europe for WCS EU were actually playing on EU ladder and helping grow the scene, while RiSky just signs up for the WCS events, wins (or comes 2nd or 3rd or whatever) and then leaves until the next one.
This lead to an amusing situation in the end of the qualifier, Seither beat RiSky in their series in the winner's bracket, and said "lul" in chat when he was about to win, basically an offensive GG. RiSky was upset about this and complained to the admins. Seither and RiSky ended up playing again in the loser's finals and this time RiSky won the series and said "lul?" in chat, because like, of course he did. Why would he not do that? Some people (who already don't like RiSky) said this was hypocritical of him to do if he complained about it being done to him, but I totally disagree. This was payback, rather than unprovoked. Also note that instead of taking it in stride, Seither got Actually Mad and said something like "ur so good a moving zerg while I lag my ass off".
Speaking of people living here and playing in the ANZ tournaments... what happened to ButAlways? He dominated the scene for that brief period of six months where he was here studying then just disappeared?
On June 29 2020 16:48 RPR_Tempest wrote:People are furious that RiSky is getting a perceived advantage despite the fact that he's playing in OUR tournament. If he wants to take the easy money and play in a different region he should have to play on our terms. There is a lot of bitterness towards him, exacerbated by the camp that feels he shouldn't be able to play in our region at all.
Lots of concerned Australian players talked to the admins about the servers before the qualifiers began, but due to the high volume of players from countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, etc, the default server for these qualifiers is the Singapore server, rather than the Australian server.
I suppose that begs the question, what makes Australians believe that this is 'their' tournament?
On June 29 2020 16:52 GTR wrote: Speaking of people living here and playing in the ANZ tournaments... what happened to ButAlways? He dominated the scene for that brief period of six months where he was here studying then just disappeared?
It happened before with Pigeon, a Chinese player literally nobody had ever heard of who did really well in an ACL, vanished for a year, came to another ACL, won it, then disappeared again.
On June 29 2020 16:48 RPR_Tempest wrote:People are furious that RiSky is getting a perceived advantage despite the fact that he's playing in OUR tournament. If he wants to take the easy money and play in a different region he should have to play on our terms. There is a lot of bitterness towards him, exacerbated by the camp that feels he shouldn't be able to play in our region at all.
Lots of concerned Australian players talked to the admins about the servers before the qualifiers began, but due to the high volume of players from countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, etc, the default server for these qualifiers is the Singapore server, rather than the Australian server.
I suppose that begs the question, what makes Australians believe that this is 'their' tournament?
Because the top level of the scene has historically been 95% ANZ players, then EnDerr, meomaika and maybe Blysk or something. Times change though, and lots of our best ANZ players have quit, so now the top level of the scene is only about 50% ANZ. A truly pitiful state of affairs for us.
But anyway, as RiSky is playing as a New Zealander, a match between an Australian and a Kiwi should obviously taking place on the Australian server. RiSky is the only person in all of the EPT who gets to circumvent the rules. Even if an Australian plays someone from Singapore, the games will go SG/AU/SG, whereas for RiSky it's SG/SG/SG. This is because rather than NZ, RiSky is considered as, iirc "South-West Asia" which is the only sub-region in our qualifier to be able to force SG for every game in the series. If RiSky is representing New Zealand he should be playing under the ruleset considering him as such.
On June 29 2020 17:04 RPR_Tempest wrote: RiSky is considered as, iirc "South-West Asia" which is the only sub-region in our qualifier to be able to force SG for every game in the series. If RiSky is representing New Zealand he should be playing under the ruleset considering him as such.
Can you link the part where there is a "South-West Asia"? This is my first time hearing of such a place. I'm unable to find it mentioned on liquipedia
On June 29 2020 17:04 RPR_Tempest wrote: RiSky is considered as, iirc "South-West Asia" which is the only sub-region in our qualifier to be able to force SG for every game in the series. If RiSky is representing New Zealand he should be playing under the ruleset considering him as such.
Can you link the part where there is a "South-West Asia"? This is my first time hearing of such a place. I'm unable to find it mentioned on liquipedia
On June 29 2020 17:04 RPR_Tempest wrote: RiSky is considered as, iirc "South-West Asia" which is the only sub-region in our qualifier to be able to force SG for every game in the series. If RiSky is representing New Zealand he should be playing under the ruleset considering him as such.
Can you link the part where there is a "South-West Asia"? This is my first time hearing of such a place. I'm unable to find it mentioned on liquipedia
On June 29 2020 16:48 RPR_Tempest wrote:People are furious that RiSky is getting a perceived advantage despite the fact that he's playing in OUR tournament. If he wants to take the easy money and play in a different region he should have to play on our terms. There is a lot of bitterness towards him, exacerbated by the camp that feels he shouldn't be able to play in our region at all.
Lots of concerned Australian players talked to the admins about the servers before the qualifiers began, but due to the high volume of players from countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, etc, the default server for these qualifiers is the Singapore server, rather than the Australian server.
I suppose that begs the question, what makes Australians believe that this is 'their' tournament?
Because the top level of the scene has historically been 95% ANZ players, then EnDerr, meomaika and maybe Blysk or something. Times change though, and lots of our best ANZ players have quit, so now the top level of the scene is only about 50% ANZ. A truly pitiful state of affairs for us.
But anyway, as RiSky is playing as a New Zealander, a match between an Australian and a Kiwi should obviously taking place on the Australian server. RiSky is the only person in all of the EPT who gets to circumvent the rules. Even if an Australian plays someone from Singapore, the games will go SG/AU/SG, whereas for RiSky it's SG/SG/SG. This is because rather than NZ, RiSky is considered as, iirc "South-West Asia" which is the only sub-region in our qualifier to be able to force SG for every game in the series. If RiSky is representing New Zealand he should be playing under the ruleset considering him as such.
So you (or parts of the Australian community) think the Server should be based on passport instead of residency, but the eligebillaty to play should be based the other way around? That would produce a shitton of incosistencys and unfair server ruling all over the competition. Risky wasn t treated as an EUW player, but as what is nearest to his current residency, what is appearently SWA. Seems absolutly fine to me. If the SP server is shitty and spikes a lot, that s obviously another story entirely
On June 29 2020 15:39 fastr wrote: There is no controversy as far as I am concerned. Risky isn't breaking any rules or laws by opting to compete in a weaker region, he's realistic about his almost non-existant chance of having a good result in EU and he's doing what's best for him.
Stephano regularly uses his dual French-Tunisian citizenship to play in some African qualifiers, I don't recall people making a fuss about it.
Outside of esport, it's quite common for athletes with dual citizenship to elect to play for their "lesser" national team if they know they have no chance of being selected to the better one. Again, who could blame them?
You could argue that people having access to dual citizenship do benefit from some unfair advantages, but I don't see how you can put the blame on the people lawfully benefiting from it.
Looking on the amount of very different replies here, there defnatly is some kind of controversy. I just was honestly courious, what it s all about, because I see it someway the same as you do, but realised, that others don t. Just wanted to know, why.
I'm confused at South West Asia being a place and thus asking for clarification.
There is no such region of "South West Asia". Such a place is as real as Atlantis. Unless you consider the tiny islands between Australia and Madagascar to be that.
Imo, there needs to be more clarity with future DH events that involves the SEA/Oceanic region.
On June 29 2020 17:53 LennX wrote: I'm confused at South West Asia being a place and thus asking for clarification.
There is no such region of "South West Asia". Such a place is as real as Atlantis. Unless you consider the tiny islands between Australia and Madagascar to be that.
Imo, there needs to be more clarity with future DH events that involves the SEA/Oceanic region.
It's pretty clearly laid out in the rulebook, where they've sub-divided the various world regions for the sake of server selection. The rules are actually QUITE clear. What the vocal group of Australian nationals are saying is that they think the rules are bad https://eslgfx.net/media/lo/ESL_Pro_Tour_SC2-Structure_Regulations.pdf
• OC (Oceania): Australia, New Zealand and Oceania • CN (China): Mainland China • NEA (North-East Asia): Japan, Korea, Mongolia • SWA (South-West Asia): All Asian countries that extend further west than the western-most part of India • SEA (South-East Asia): Rest of Asia (including India) • EUE (Europe East): All European countries that do not extend further west than the western-most part of Poland • EUW (Europe West): Rest of Europe • AF (Africa): All African countries • LA: All American countries except USA and Canada • NAC (North America Central): Manitoba, Ontario, Saskatchewan (Canada) & Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Texas, Wisconsin (USA) • NAE (North America East): East of those • NAW (North America West): West of those
I based my earlier post on the wrong assumption that Risky was playing his matchs on the AU server. While I maintain that it's wrong to blame anyone for benefiting from the advantages of dual citizenship, I agree that we can and should examine the current rules and make necessary changes if the situation seems unfair.
In that case I do empathize with AU players having to play on a shitty server because of one particular and complex case.
If it were up to me, Risky would have to play on AU since he voluntarily decided to play on this region despite the distance, but I understand that it could create a dangerous precedent in different circumstances.
On June 29 2020 17:53 LennX wrote: I'm confused at South West Asia being a place and thus asking for clarification.
There is no such region of "South West Asia". Such a place is as real as Atlantis. Unless you consider the tiny islands between Australia and Madagascar to be that.
Imo, there needs to be more clarity with future DH events that involves the SEA/Oceanic region.
It's pretty clearly laid out in the rulebook, where they've sub-divided the various world regions for the sake of server selection. The rules are actually QUITE clear. What the vocal group of Australian nationals are saying is that they think the rules are bad https://eslgfx.net/media/lo/ESL_Pro_Tour_SC2-Structure_Regulations.pdf
• OC (Oceania): Australia, New Zealand and Oceania • CN (China): Mainland China • NEA (North-East Asia): Japan, Korea, Mongolia • SWA (South-West Asia): All Asian countries that extend further west than the western-most part of India • SEA (South-East Asia): Rest of Asia (including India) • EUE (Europe East): All European countries that do not extend further west than the western-most part of Poland • EUW (Europe West): Rest of Europe • AF (Africa): All African countries • LA: All American countries except USA and Canada • NAC (North America Central): Manitoba, Ontario, Saskatchewan (Canada) & Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Texas, Wisconsin (USA) • NAE (North America East): East of those • NAW (North America West): West of those
On June 29 2020 18:56 fastr wrote: I based my earlier post on the wrong assumption that Risky was playing his matchs on the AU server. While I maintain that it's wrong to blame anyone for benefiting from the advantages of dual citizenship, I agree that we can and should examine the current rules and make necessary changes if the situation seems unfair.
In that case I do empathize with AU players having to play on a shitty server because of one particular and complex case.
If it were up to me, Risky would have to play on AU since he voluntarily decided to play on this region despite the distance, but I understand that it could create a dangerous precedent in different circumstances.
I mean, Singapore is still meant to be better for Australians. It should be 70-100 ping vs 200, then we have normal cross server rules playing "fairest ping" for these online events, which is how its basically done for any other region. But the problem is Singapore is problematic for a bunch of people so they get worse ping than they should?
RiSky also played Singapore vs Blysk, who is from Singapore, so is the issue not just that there are too many regions lumped into this one region?
Idk I'm a bit biased because RiSky is my friend, but trying to take the bias out of it the current rules make sense from a tournament organizers point of view.
I did express to the admins that i thought seithers "lul" was bad mannered and unsportsmanlike when they brought it up in our group chat (they didn't seem to be quite clear on whether it was BM or not) but i wouldn't say i "complained to them", i didn't go out of my way to get seither "punished" or anything like that.
i didn't "force" singapore, they never asked to play any other servers / i made sure they were okay with playing singapore.
they never played on 300-400 ping to singapore, if they did get a bad singapore server they immediately rehosted and the ping returned to the normal 50-110ms range.
I played on a consistent 180-210 ping throughout the tournament.
As to whether it's fair that they only get a 100-150 ping advantage, that's down to personal opinion. I believe it's absolutely correct that i should get some disadvantage for playing in a region that i don't reside in, that makes sense. As to how much of a disadvantage? not sure, if australia was the only server i could play on that would be a 350-400 ping to 0 disadvantage. is that fair? i don't know, it's up to ESL to decide.
I also would like to comment on "contributing to the scene":
I tried to contribute to the ANZ scene. I played in some leagues and a teamleague for the region and spent quite a bit of my own money to travel to the offline finals of that team league and an offline tournament. At this tournament i was told straight to my face that they hated me. To be clear, some people were nice, and i appreciate those people for being welcoming (they know who they are), but the majority obviously didn't want me there, and didn't make much effort to hide it.
After the offline tournament, they said that i just came to the event to "steal more of their money" even though the event most likely was going to be a loss for me financially. Going into the event i was expecting to lose money on it, i went anyway because i wanted to reach out and try and be part of the scene i was competing in.
They have never asked me for practice, i even extended an offer to them for practice but of course, they never contacted me. Whenever anyone in the scene has messaged me asking for advice i have always given them as much as i could.
So what am i meant to do? i've made the effort and it's been rejected.
On June 29 2020 20:37 RiSkysc2 wrote: i didn't "force" singapore, they never asked to play any other servers / i made sure they were okay with playing singapore.
By choosing SWA as your "out of region" sub-region, you are ONLY playing SG server, with no exceptions or server swapping.
The whole "sub-region" rulings are nuts for a region as diverse and large as SEA (RiSky situation notwithstanding), with rules that can be abused in other situations to disadvantage the regional players.
On June 29 2020 20:37 RiSkysc2 wrote: A few things i want to clear up:
I did express to the admins that i thought seithers "lul" was bad mannered and unsportsmanlike when they brought it up in our group chat (they didn't seem to be quite clear on whether it was BM or not) but i wouldn't say i "complained to them", i didn't go out of my way to get seither "punished" or anything like that.
i didn't "force" singapore, they never asked to play any other servers / i made sure they were okay with playing singapore.
they never played on 300-400 ping to singapore, if they did get a bad singapore server they immediately rehosted and the ping returned to the normal 50-110ms range.
I played on a consistent 180-210 ping throughout the tournament.
As to whether it's fair that they only get a 100-150 ping advantage, that's down to personal opinion. I believe it's absolutely correct that i should get some disadvantage for playing in a region that i don't reside in, that makes sense. As to how much of a disadvantage? not sure, if australia was the only server i could play on that would be a 350-400 ping to 0 disadvantage. is that fair? i don't know, it's up to ESL to decide.
I also would like to comment on "contributing to the scene":
I tried to contribute to the ANZ scene. I played in some leagues and a teamleague for the region and spent quite a bit of my own money to travel to the offline finals of that team league and an offline tournament. At this tournament i was told straight to my face that they hated me. To be clear, some people were nice, and i appreciate those people for being welcoming (they know who they are), but the majority obviously didn't want me there, and didn't make much effort to hide it.
After the offline tournament, they said that i just came to the event to "steal more of their money" even though the event most likely was going to be a loss for me financially. Going into the event i was expecting to lose money on it, i went anyway because i wanted to reach out and try and be part of the scene i was competing in.
They have never asked me for practice, i even extended an offer to them for practice but of course, they never contacted me. Whenever anyone in the scene has messaged me asking for advice i have always given them as much as i could.
So what am i meant to do? i've made the effort and it's been rejected.
I like you Risky, when I had twitter i hearted everything you posted and believe you're doing nothing wrong.
I don't think it's a coincidence Probe, which looks like a really decent guy, gg wp you at the end of the match.
Just that, i think you could use a bit of support. Have a nice week.
I did express to the admins that i thought seithers "lul" was bad mannered and unsportsmanlike when they brought it up in our group chat (they didn't seem to be quite clear on whether it was BM or not) but i wouldn't say i "complained to them", i didn't go out of my way to get seither "punished" or anything like that.
i didn't "force" singapore, they never asked to play any other servers / i made sure they were okay with playing singapore.
they never played on 300-400 ping to singapore, if they did get a bad singapore server they immediately rehosted and the ping returned to the normal 50-110ms range.
I played on a consistent 180-210 ping throughout the tournament.
As to whether it's fair that they only get a 100-150 ping advantage, that's down to personal opinion. I believe it's absolutely correct that i should get some disadvantage for playing in a region that i don't reside in, that makes sense. As to how much of a disadvantage? not sure, if australia was the only server i could play on that would be a 350-400 ping to 0 disadvantage. is that fair? i don't know, it's up to ESL to decide.
I also would like to comment on "contributing to the scene":
I tried to contribute to the ANZ scene. I played in some leagues and a teamleague for the region and spent quite a bit of my own money to travel to the offline finals of that team league and an offline tournament. At this tournament i was told straight to my face that they hated me. To be clear, some people were nice, and i appreciate those people for being welcoming (they know who they are), but the majority obviously didn't want me there, and didn't make much effort to hide it.
After the offline tournament, they said that i just came to the event to "steal more of their money" even though the event most likely was going to be a loss for me financially. Going into the event i was expecting to lose money on it, i went anyway because i wanted to reach out and try and be part of the scene i was competing in.
They have never asked me for practice, i even extended an offer to them for practice but of course, they never contacted me. Whenever anyone in the scene has messaged me asking for advice i have always given them as much as i could.
So what am i meant to do? i've made the effort and it's been rejected.
Thank you for clearing things up. I believe you did nothing wrong.
On June 29 2020 16:52 GTR wrote: Speaking of people living here and playing in the ANZ tournaments... what happened to ButAlways? He dominated the scene for that brief period of six months where he was here studying then just disappeared?
It happened before with Pigeon, a Chinese player literally nobody had ever heard of who did really well in an ACL, vanished for a year, came to another ACL, won it, then disappeared again.
He was still in aus as of late 2018, I caught up with him at Huts lan in Sydney, he said he doesn't play anymore but still watches the pro stuff
Whether he can represent that country isn't the question. The question is whether it is fair for the matches to be played on the Singapore server, which due to cable damage between Aus and Singapore often causes severe ping issues and spikes for Aussies and with ~100-150 ping vs 250 ping, on the Australia servers which have 400 ping vs 40 ping, or US West servers which would have fairly even ping without the spikes for Aussie players.
My opinion, personally, is that the matches should just be played on the Aus servers - Risky is choosing to play in a region across the world rather than the region he is in, because the competition isn't as stiff. He is a citizen of NZ, so I have no issue with him being allowed to play, but I do have a problem with both players having a disadvantage because Risky made that decision. To me, the Singapore servers with the ping spikes for Aussie players is completely unfair, and in practice ends up putting Aus players at a *disadvantage*, which is absolute bullshit for them. I've seen a lot of Aussie players saying that US West would be fine for them with even ping, so if that's okay with them, it's okay with me. I just think that the current situation is completely unfair to the Aussie players and needs changes.
On June 29 2020 15:05 Waxangel wrote: However, I don't recall there being a player in RiSKy's specific situation, of using dual citizenship to compete in a region where they did not reside, and being good enough to immediately become the #1 player of that region.
On June 29 2020 15:05 Waxangel wrote: However, I don't recall there being a player in RiSKy's specific situation, of using dual citizenship to compete in a region where they did not reside, and being good enough to immediately become the #1 player of that region.
WESG and Stephano !
Heromarine as well iirc?
WESG was full of "abuse" regarding the nationality rule.
On June 29 2020 15:05 Waxangel wrote: However, I don't recall there being a player in RiSKy's specific situation, of using dual citizenship to compete in a region where they did not reside, and being good enough to immediately become the #1 player of that region.
WESG and Stephano !
Heromarine as well iirc?
WESG was full of "abuse" regarding the nationality rule.
Yeah, he played for Italy in the pre-Reynor era I think.
Also there are going to be more Players with dual citizenship playing the RoA/Oceania Section of DH:
On June 29 2020 17:53 LennX wrote: I'm confused at South West Asia being a place and thus asking for clarification.
There is no such region of "South West Asia". Such a place is as real as Atlantis. Unless you consider the tiny islands between Australia and Madagascar to be that.
Imo, there needs to be more clarity with future DH events that involves the SEA/Oceanic region.
While there are things that, from some perspectives, may be more South and more West than Southwest Asia, that does not preclude its existence. Similarly, you would not say "There is no Southern United States, such a place is as real as Hogwarts, unless you consider Mexico to be that."
Just lower the points/prize money of OCE until equilibrium point is reached so the 40th-50th ranked EU players stop trying to get in; problem solved without affecting the top 4 players of LATAM or NA
People wanted a villain in sc2, they have it. Playing zerg and stealing Australian players money by forcing them to play on a bad server, while training in Europe with good ping!
I feel for those players but the main problem are the rules that allow this.
I think Risky didn't do anything wrong, however I think the rules for regional tournaments/qualifiers should generally be designed to support regional players more. Same with the weekly ESL cups. Somehow it doesn't feel right to see EU/KR players winning most AM cups for example.
On August 06 2020 00:57 SpaceBoar wrote: I think Risky didn't do anything wrong, however I think the rules for regional tournaments/qualifiers should generally be designed to support regional players more. Same with the weekly ESL cups. Somehow it doesn't feel right to see EU/KR players winning most AM cups for example.
The weeklys are actually Server bound to Na, Eu and Kr respectivly. And Risky (and Teebul and Razerblader) are going to Play on Singapure Server, wich is part of the Rest of Asia/ Oceania region
On August 06 2020 04:58 Fango wrote: If you have citizenship and want to farm a weaker region, go ahead. But you should be at least made to play on that server.
Why? If rules allow for someone with citizenship to play on another region, the game should be played on the fairest server for both players. Making the player with the citizenship play on a disatvantage on pourpose sounds way more like kind of a retaliation for "someone who tries to steal our spot" than a fair rule.
On August 06 2020 04:58 Fango wrote: If you have citizenship and want to farm a weaker region, go ahead. But you should be at least made to play on that server.
Why? If rules allow for someone with citizenship to play on another region, the game should be played on the fairest server for both players. Making the player with the citizenship play on a disatvantage on pourpose sounds way more like kind of a retaliation for "someone who tries to steal our spot" than a fair rule.
The whole purpose of having regional qualifiers is to try and benefit scenes that don't get as much support or have a lot going for them. Letting players that live, practice, and compete outside of those regions enter is already concerning, but there's not much you can do if they're legally citizens. What's happening here is that TOs aren't merely allowing it, they're accomodating it by forcing them to play on middle-ground servers.
Regional qualifiers should be hosted on that regions server. If you don't actually live there why should we feel bad for you? Otherwise you're just limiting the oppurtunity for those regions to develop because any GM on EU who happens to have citizenship can claim the spot.
On August 06 2020 04:58 Fango wrote: If you have citizenship and want to farm a weaker region, go ahead. But you should be at least made to play on that server.
They actually play on the server of the region, as it is not only Australia, but Oceania + Rest of Asia. Singapore is part of it and that was the server, it was played on.
On August 06 2020 04:58 Fango wrote: If you have citizenship and want to farm a weaker region, go ahead. But you should be at least made to play on that server.
Why? If rules allow for someone with citizenship to play on another region, the game should be played on the fairest server for both players. Making the player with the citizenship play on a disatvantage on pourpose sounds way more like kind of a retaliation for "someone who tries to steal our spot" than a fair rule.
The whole purpose of having regional qualifiers is to try and benefit scenes that don't get as much support or have a lot going for them. Letting players that live, practice, and compete outside of those regions enter is already concerning, but there's not much you can do if they're legally citizens. What's happening here is that TOs aren't merely allowing it, they're accomodating it by forcing them to play on middle-ground servers.
Regional qualifiers should be hosted on that regions server. If you don't actually live there why should we feel bad for you? Otherwise you're just limiting the oppurtunity for those regions to develop because any GM on EU who happens to have citizenship can claim the spot.
I strongly, strongly disagree. This isn't about feeling bad for someone, it's about rules and faireness, not feelings. We might discuss the rule about allowing citizenship, but other than that, once it's allowed, putting someone in a disadvantage just because it's perceived as someone out of his place, or because we want to help the opponent for whatever reason, is the definition of unfairness. It's like allowing someone to park their car on a certain place and then pretend that because that slot was originally thought as a slot for the people of that neighborhood, it should be allowed to cut their tires.
Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
All qualifiers are hosted on the region's server. It just that the region is very big.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
u actin like a massive boy pussy rn risky just remember those who act like ur friend the same ones talking shit about you behind ur back and i john madden don't respect either parties.
feel free to come visit our countries anytime though go on]
edit: even pedophile sympathisers straight up hate you, think about your actions man.
We did not even have an AUS server until...HoTS I believe ? SG was the only Oceanic server back then and we still produced people like MoonGlade. Now people are complaining that you are forced to play with ~50 ping advantage instead of 250. The SG server could be better, but people are acting as if that somehow turned the situation into a ping disadvantage for the Aussies which is definitely not true at all.
On August 06 2020 16:02 kottbullar wrote: We did not even have an AUS server until...HoTS I believe ? SG was the only Oceanic server back then and we still produced people like MoonGlade. Now people are complaining that you are forced to play with ~50 ping advantage instead of 250. The SG server could be better, but people are acting as if that somehow turned the situation into a ping disadvantage for the Aussies which is definitely not true at all.
We don't have a ping advantage at all god dammit its even at best, and back then we didn't have cable damage between Australia and Singapore
Also we produced mOOnGLaDe because there was a lot of opportunity, interest and LANs at the time that we flat-out don't have anymore. Plus he knew staying in Australia was still nearly a dead-end for a progamer. Petraeus, PiG, iaguz, etc everyone who mattered or could say they were a legitimate pro gamer from Australia went overseas to practice for an extended period of time and play in LANs in that region. PiG and Petraeus to Europe, iaguz to America. Probe has been to America and Korea for brief periods. EPT Qualifier is literally the only thing in the scene to practice for. Our scene hasn't been the same since ACL died in 2015.
On August 06 2020 16:02 kottbullar wrote: We did not even have an AUS server until...HoTS I believe ? SG was the only Oceanic server back then and we still produced people like MoonGlade. Now people are complaining that you are forced to play with ~50 ping advantage instead of 250. The SG server could be better, but people are acting as if that somehow turned the situation into a ping disadvantage for the Aussies which is definitely not true at all.
We don't have a ping advantage at all god dammit its even at best, and back then we didn't have cable damage between Australia and Singapore
Also we produced mOOnGLaDe because there was a lot of opportunity, interest and LANs at the time that we flat-out don't have anymore. Plus he knew staying in Australia was still nearly a dead-end for a progamer. Petraeus, PiG, iaguz, etc everyone who mattered or could say they were a legitimate pro gamer from Australia went overseas to practice for an extended period of time and play in LANs in that region. PiG and Petraeus to Europe, iaguz to America. Probe has been to America and Korea for brief periods. EPT Qualifier is literally the only thing in the scene to practice for. Our scene hasn't been the same since ACL died in 2015.
On August 06 2020 16:02 kottbullar wrote: We did not even have an AUS server until...HoTS I believe ? SG was the only Oceanic server back then and we still produced people like MoonGlade. Now people are complaining that you are forced to play with ~50 ping advantage instead of 250. The SG server could be better, but people are acting as if that somehow turned the situation into a ping disadvantage for the Aussies which is definitely not true at all.
We don't have a ping advantage at all god dammit its even at best, and back then we didn't have cable damage between Australia and Singapore
Also we produced mOOnGLaDe because there was a lot of opportunity, interest and LANs at the time that we flat-out don't have anymore. Plus he knew staying in Australia was still nearly a dead-end for a progamer. Petraeus, PiG, iaguz, etc everyone who mattered or could say they were a legitimate pro gamer from Australia went overseas to practice for an extended period of time and play in LANs in that region. PiG and Petraeus to Europe, iaguz to America. Probe has been to America and Korea for brief periods. EPT Qualifier is literally the only thing in the scene to practice for. Our scene hasn't been the same since ACL died in 2015.
It's a bit hard to take you seriously when you're bsing about the ping... Or the numerous personal attacks of your community (or rather group of bullies considering how tiny it is) against Risky. If only you were just bads at the game... I was a bit neutral but I don't think any reasonnable person can have sympathy for you.
The success of one subtop eu player (prolly not even top 25-30) playing on the singapor server shows there is not much to develop in this region, Blizzard shouldn't have organize wcs over here. But if anything, the hatred against Risky is a good incentive to train, you literaly have no excuse and this is still 2500 for the second, 1600 for the third (way too much)
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm or any other region would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice.
But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown.
If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul".
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I feel like at this point the main problem is that some Australians think, the whole qualifier is only for Australia. I mean, they clearly don t see Singapore as part of their region (Spoiler: wich it actuallly is). This "I don t want to play on sg" is like Neeb (from NA east) saying, he doesn t want to play on NA central when playing Astrea(from NA West). + Show Spoiler +
I hope I remembered their regions corretly, I m not super familiar with the NA scene
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice.
But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown.
If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul".
"Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is.
On August 06 2020 06:59 Fango wrote: Qualifiers should not be a political or nationality issue. They're to help develop certain regions of play. Therefore people living in that region should be able to play on their own server. It's really that simple.
You're saying that what's happening with Risky is fine by the rules, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the rules shouldn't accommodate a situation where a player who doesn't reside, practice, or compete in a certain region is taking that region's spot.
Due to restrictions being based of citizenship, you can say it's unavoidable, but just hosting all qualifiers on that region's server (unless both players agree between them) seems like a sensible step. Otherwise you're supporting the above problem.
So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I feel like at this point the main problem is that some Australians think, the whole qualifier is only for Australia. I mean, they clearly don t see Singapore as part of their region (Spoiler: wich it actuallly is). This "I don t want to play on sg" is like Neeb (from NA east) saying, he doesn t want to play on NA central when playing Astrea(from NA West). + Show Spoiler +
I hope I remembered their regions corretly, I m not super familiar with the NA scene
That's not true. The Australians haven't been complaining about the non-Australian players who are actually in the region though (e.g Blysk), only the Europeans. For Blysk and most of the others they do alternate between Singapore and Australia though, rather than all Singapore for Risky. I guess against Demi it would also be all Singapore?
Though the issue isn't really about the server, and more so that they just don't want third tier Europeans farming their region. I guess they want ESL to decide that the server that should be used is always the one that's best for the people who are actually in the region.
On August 06 2020 13:36 dbRic1203 wrote: [quote] So you say Region should be only based on residency, not citisenship? That means Kelazhur has to Play Eu and Special and Scarlett can t compete in Ept at all. LatAm would be pretty dead without the 2 main Players competing for their Region.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice.
But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown.
If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul".
"Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is.
Haha That's not my main point but considering your reading comprehension, I understand a "lul" and "no to invaders" seem way more eloquent to you.
I wouldn't be so sure LatAm would be dead just because 2 best players wouldn't participate in regional tourneys. That could actually have the opposite effect by motivating lesser known players from the region to practice hard because they would realistically have better chance of succeeding and making money. Not saying Special or Kelazhur should be banned from participating, but they should be forced to play on the server of that region if it's a regional qualifier because it's their choice to go live outside of the region. If they want best ping they should play in tourneys in the region they reside in.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice.
But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown.
If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul".
"Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is.
Haha That's not my point but considering your reading comprehension, I understand a "lul" and "no to invaders" seem way more eloquent to you.
It isn't directly the argument you're making, but it's a pretty big factor in what your argument appears to be, which is as far as I can tell "if Risky is beating them on Singapore, that's on them for not being good enough to beat him", which is all you've said about the specific situation being discussed that isn't three different instances of you saying basically that Aus players are bad and are lucky to have support from WCS/ESL in the first place.
I seriously just don't understand how "if he's playing in aus tournaments from halfway across the world, he should have to play on aus servers" is such a controversial statement
On August 07 2020 05:36 Psychonian wrote: I seriously just don't understand how "if he's playing in aus tournaments from halfway across the world, he should have to play on aus servers" is such a controversial statement
Yeah it's basic common sense. It's also the default until changed otherwise for a good reason.
On August 07 2020 05:36 Psychonian wrote: I seriously just don't understand how "if he's playing in aus tournaments from halfway across the world, he should have to play on aus servers" is such a controversial statement
Maybe you should read the thread, its not just an Australian tournament.
That's totally fucked up. It handicaps the players who dedicated themselves the most to progaming then.
That would only handicap players who are not residing in a region which a given tourney is meant to support. It has nothing to do with the amount of dedication.
It handicaps the players from the say region who are seeking and taking the risk to get better opportunities to train. I don't think it's helping in any way the scene to penalyze the stronger players of weaker regions this way and I totally understand Special's reaction in this regard. Or then you have to considerably reallocates the cashprize into the stronger region. WCS is still made for progamers, not a bunch of angry aussies/low gm players.
Except it's not really targeted at "stronger players of weaker regions" as you put it, nobody said that. It's about supporting the players staying in the weaker region, so that they also have some incentives to practice, otherwise a weak region may always remain weak and has a smaller chance to get better.
Say player like DRG moves to the US and starts farming that NA money by participating in local NA tourneys and what not. When he decides to play e.g. in Olimoleague, which is a tourney supporting KR region, he should be forced to play on KR server imho. It would be unfair to force players from KR to play not on KR while residing in KR and playing in KR tourney. It's clear and simple in my mind, but apparently I'm in a minority.
Singapore server is part of this region so your point is rendered completely invalid with that alone.
I was not talking about Singapore specifically, but generally about regional tourneys/qualis. Still, if you don't reside in a region for which a given tourney is meant for, your opponent residing in that region should have the ability to force a server of their choice.
But I was talking about dreamhack specifically. I fully agree that some regional qualifiers from whatever tourney and ept tournaments should be played on a unique server. But the dreamhack circuit is to select the best players of each region and assure its grown.
If we're being pragmatic, it raises 2 questions : Is Risky really on his own limiting the grown of the australian scene ? Considering his role as a vilain, the answer is clearly no, if anything, his presence is positive. Is there a real potential of players within it ? Well, I will use the same eloquent word the aussie scene like to spam "lul".
"Who cares, they're all bad" isn't really the strong argument you seem to think it is.
Haha That's not my point but considering your reading comprehension, I understand a "lul" and "no to invaders" seem way more eloquent to you.
It isn't directly the argument you're making, but it's a pretty big factor in what your argument appears to be, which is as far as I can tell "if Risky is beating them on Singapore, that's on them for not being good enough to beat him", which is all you've said about the specific situation being discussed that isn't three different instances of you saying basically that Aus players are bad and are lucky to have support from WCS/ESL in the first place.
Ok my answer was rude and childish so sorry, I originally thought you were of bad faith as I definetly had other arguments contrary to what you were saying. So I will repeat and try to be clearer : Basically, the australian community brings the argument of their need of growth against Risky who is competiting in their tournament.
Firstly, I think this is quite stupid because Risky's presence seems to fuel a lot of motivation accros the scene.
Secondly the 2 solutions they are proposing (residency only or server advantage) are bads for the following reason : in the end, the main goal is still to select the best player of the region, it is not only about the growth of the scene. Especially in the first solution, Special would make more money and could attain katowice only if he goes back to latm which will affect his growth as a player. And even if the second solution is less radical, I still think everything should be made in order that the competition is fair for everybody from the time the player is eligible regardless of his location and that penalyzing a player like Special who is so dedicated that he goes to train in Korea is just terrible.
Thirdly, the argument of growth is valid but let's not forget this is still about competition and progamer, the goal is still that the best citizen from each regions go to the season finals.
Finally, I indeed wonder why so much ressources should be located here, that might be because I think the reaction of the australian community quite pitiful but imo I think they should merge with Taiwan, Has will adjust this Risky problem.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/33Wy4YV.png)
