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I am really, really concerned about how Protoss is going to hold Terran allins on the new patch, some of these changes present major issues.
1. Charge as it currently is, with the 8 damage is somewhat needed to hold Terran 2 base allins. Without it, holding those allins becomes extremely difficult. Not impossible but more difficult than it should be.
2. The Adept change is a nerf and the Adept did not need to be nerfed.
3. Observer nerf makes no sense. Nerfing "frustrating" non-combat units is generally a mistake unless they have obscene stats to provide insane utility. In the case of the Observer, it would need a much, much larger sight range for it to actually be a problem. Additionally, making Ravens faster while making the Observer slower is...just wow. I guess speed Banshees are back in business boys! Enjoy your hard to deal with 111 builds!
4. Tempests don't need 25 more effective health. They need to cost less and take up less supply. There's a reason why Protoss players don;t like building them, because they're expensive, high up the tech tree and extremely niche. Making them means sacrificing army to deal with a threat you otherwise can't deal with, like massed Liberators. Problem is the accompanying bio just rolls over Tempest due to the trashy supporting army in the cases where Tempests are REQUIRED. Why can't Tempests just be weaker and have their cost adjusted to reflect this?
5. 10 range Lurkers are a problem late game. Protoss already struggles vs Lurkers due to a multitude of variables, ranging from Disruptor shots being too slow to connect with micro'd Lurkers after their Talon upgrade to Colossus being freaking bad units vs anything not light to generally not having enough range to deal with siege units.
6. Ravens gain an additional 3 seconds with IM. So now with Charge being...well, frankly, trash vs Terran bio, Protoss need tech...and tech gets disabled by IM in a timing. What is Protoss supposed to do when they're not allowed to use their tech units for 11 seconds? You can't rely on Chargelots to hold aggression anymore...this links back into Terran 2 base allins that are going to be insanely strong vs Protoss.
These factors really concern me and honestly, make me wonder what on earth the balance team is doing...the Terran and Zerg changes are pretty good but the Protoss changes are...well, it makes me wonder if anyone on the balance team even plays Protoss or if they all went out to the pub one night and wrote the Protoss changes on the back of a cocktail napkin. They're that bad and imo, that short sighted.
As a random player, with these new changes, if I random Protoss, I feel like my only choices are going to be cheese or fast Flux Chadrays sniping buildings constantly, PiG style.
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Yea just go chadrays bro.
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This is the response for the insanely fast 3rdNexus Protoss been doing. Now Protoss will have to respect Terran choices of agression not getting free 3rds. Seems fair design wize, the thing is just the maps. Not to big to favor Protoss, not to short to favor Terran.
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On November 17 2019 06:54 FataLe wrote:
Yea just go chadrays bro.
That's the plan. I posted this for visibility though. I haven't seen anyone, even pros bring up a lot of the compounding effects in TvP due to the changes.
Like how speed banshees are going to interact with slowzervers. Or how rushing out a Raven or 2 for a 2 base allin vs Protoss is going to be insanely hard to deal with due to Charge not being good at burst damage anymore+11 second IM, which makes, say a clutch Colossus with shield batteries not a viable defense. Basically any kind of fast tech to hold vs Bio Raven 2 base allin is going to be useless.
These are things that should have been heavily considered and I don't think they were because if my awful butt can spot these interactions a mile off, then what do you think is going to happen in 3-6 months when pros adapt and start using these strong timings? TvP was already balanced on a knife edge and I highly suspect these changes will outright break the MU.
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On November 17 2019 07:00 RedJohnSC2 wrote:
This is the response for the insanely fast 3rdNexus Protoss been doing. Now Protoss will have to respect Terran choices of agression not getting free 3rds. Seems fair design wize, the thing is just the maps. Not to big to favor Protoss, not to short to favor Terran.
The free 3rd was a problem, Protoss economy snowballed too hard for Terran to keep up but that doesn't excuse a lot of these changes.
The one which really, really gets me is the charge nerf and IM buff. Anyone can see that when combined, that's a huge issue as Protoss will need tech units like the Colossus or Disruptor to handle Terran 2 base allins now....except those get disabled for 11 seconds in a timing where you won't have enough of them to compensate for the 11 second IM.
That was a boneheaded decision on the balance team's part. They're better than that and I expect those kind of bad changes from David Kim, not them.
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if you're really random you should know that chargelots are too strong ON THEIR OWN, if terran all-ins will be too strong they'll fix it, it's not the reason to let chargelots stay like this, I play all races myself and I think the change is good for the game because since it's a strategy, it will force you to use your brain instead of just a-moving.
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On November 17 2019 07:42 Hvvacha wrote:
if you're really random you should know that chargelots are too strong ON THEIR OWN, if terran all-ins will be too strong they'll fix it, it's not the reason to let chargelots stay like this, I play all races myself and I think the change is good for the game because since it's a strategy, it will force you to use your brain instead of just a-moving.
I also agree. My personal fix would be to give Chargelots an additional 20-30 shields with Charge researched (and the insane speed from the patch) while moving the burst damage of current charge to Glaives in some fashion.
That way the Zealot is a front line tank, meant to pin down units and soak damage but isn't good at bursting down units anymore whereas the Adept is the damage dealer. Ideally, you'd need shade after Glaives to be as fast as the new chargelot so the two pair together well. Giving the Zealot shields and not health allows Widow Mines and EMP to still deal good damage to them, it's just that Marines and Marauders won't kill them as quickly and that's integral to the design of the new chargelot.
P.S. only bad players a move their chargelots, you have to split them, tell some to focus down targets while others just derp around, killing whatever is in front of them. It's not super skilled but it does take some apm and attention. I shift queue commands with 3 or 4 groups of chargelots to this end.
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