EPTSerral wins WCS Fall 2019 - Page 2
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
Having the best player in the world slaughtering underdogs over and over is surprisingly enough getting a bit stale. Looking forward to Blizzcon to see if someone can topple this giant. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:01 Shuffleblade wrote: That first game of Reynor vs Serral was mind blowing, SpeCial played amazing this tournament sad to see he failed to get to the finals. Having the best player in the world slaughtering underdogs over and over is surprisingly enough getting a bit stale. Looking forward to Blizzcon to see if someone can topple this giant. While being self-admitted shameless Serral fan-boy, I agree. At this point it would be much more interesting if Serral would get always placed in the hard side of brackets with top Koreans (as we know if his opponent isn't Top 20 Korean player, Reynor, or Neeb no matter what he does, doesn't really count and is just mundane  ), forced to play extra games in group stages without any short cuts, using -1 map handicap while victory condition for him is BO5 while others enjoy BO3 luxury.Serral's preparation time must be minimized also, and good way to do that is to force him play ladder during pauses in a tournament. All of these extra victory conditions would ensure that: 1) Level of competition will be enough good 2) Accumulating sample - against Top Koreans - would pile up more faster 3) Making his real clutch-factor and skill level more easily visible 4) Minimize amount of whining (all kinds of) 5) In eventual and probable cases of still winning regardless, castrate all possible excuses against the value of the win 6) Get faster big enough sample for next balance patch 7) Activate tl.net forums with interesting discussions 8) Recommend his move to Korea and GSL to enjoy luxury of preparation time, that doesn't apparently improve his chances to crack his opponents while same time can be used for that against Serral 9) Increase the likelihood Serral will be someday in a distant future ranked #1 in tl.net, hopefully before he retires or SC2 gets shut down by Blizzard 10) Other things not fully thought out yet, but certainly making things more interesting SC2 World Champion shouldn't ever apologize to anybody how good he is, or what matchups he have to play. It all should be arranged that way there are no room for excuses, in way that even the most hard boiled Korean elitist would agree its undisputed.  | ||
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Neemi
Netherlands656 Posts
The victory also locked down his position as the #1 Circuit seed headed into the Global Finals—enough to give him a 'referee's decision' claim to be the king of the 2019 Circuit, even if Reynor equaled his number of Circuit titles and defeated him in two-out-of-three finals matches That's a bit odd to call it a "referee's decision" like it's only a technical #1 win, because WCS Spring featured a semi-final clash between the two where Serral demolished Reynor 3-0. Serral would have been ahead as #1 seed if that happened in the finals too, because of superior results in every global tournament this year, and in WCS Challenger since Serral won all of those. I'd call it a shared throne, considering that Serral hasn't lost to anyone in WCS since Winter 2018 besides Reynor, and Reynor hasn't lost to anyone besides Serral in WCS since his debut one year ago. But if you have to pick just one, Serral is the clear winner, with "only counting WCS finals" being the single unique factor he's behind in. | ||
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Moridin
Bulgaria165 Posts
On September 09 2019 14:41 showstealer1829 wrote: Another Circuit Event. Another Tournament where we could have got Serral and Reynor to toss a coin 7 times and not wasted 3 days You may not like/care if a ZvZ but if you watched the finals you will definitely notice a skill/mind difference and apart from great game one all the rest were one sided. So NO, no coin toss can be done because of Serral. The right metaphor would be to just give him the trophy Beforehand. Looking at latest tournaments it seems like: Reynor is almost (still beatable) a level above anyone but Serral (foreigner scene) Serral is a level above Reynor | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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Farentir
1 Post
On September 09 2019 16:37 Neemi wrote: I'd call it a shared throne, considering that Serral hasn't lost to anyone in WCS since Winter 2018 besides Reynor, and Reynor hasn't lost to anyone besides Serral in WCS since his debut one year ago. But if you have to pick just one, Serral is the clear winner, with "only counting WCS finals" being the single unique factor he's behind in. Maybe in WCS, but I'd like to remind you the Qlash tournament in Italy, and while Reynor ultimatedly prevailed, Drogo defeated on the winner bracket and gave him a really hard time. | ||
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DrunkenSCV
76 Posts
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Neemi
Netherlands656 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:56 Farentir wrote: Maybe in WCS, but I'd like to remind you the Qlash tournament in Italy, and while Reynor ultimatedly prevailed, Drogo defeated on the winner bracket and gave him a really hard time. Absolutely, Reynor also lost pretty decisively to SpeCial in GSL vs. The World recently, he's definitely mortal outside of WCS. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count) But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks). If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse. Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal. [Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing] | ||
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Slydie
1927 Posts
On September 09 2019 17:17 UnLarva wrote: About that Bonjwa -status. I don't claim that Serral is the one while recognizing that for the status there must be some minimum achievements on Korean soil accompanied due historical reasons. (back-to-back GSL vs The World can be just ignored, nil, doesn't count) But it also seems to me that 'Bonjwa' -category is empty. Analogy would be the last two decades as its been like waiting of Jesus' next coming (while writing this already sandbacked, delayed, and move-goal-posted some 2000+ years by those who wait most eagerly, winks winks). If in some utmostly unimaginable scenario SC2 will be played still after two millenia, all future Bonjwa canditates are likely shot down using Serral as excuse. Whole word is just ideal state of potential in an imagination. When happening before our own eyes, we are still blinded by that ideal. [Disclaimer: religious analogy is just for pointing out certain things about human history and psyche: next coming of J. was originally imminent - so has been the ideal of Bonjwa - always coming, never actualizing] Someone should really break down the results of the 5 BW Bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Flash) and figure out it was really fair not to award that title to anyone in SC2. MVP, Life, Maru, Serral and others have had very good results over a long time too. | ||
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6992 Posts
On September 09 2019 17:42 Zeon0 wrote: We should absolutely start another Serral = Bonjwa discussion Maybe not a bonjwa discussion, but will most likely have to revisit the GOAT title after this year ends. Maru probably being #1 and Serral crashing in the top 8 | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On September 09 2019 17:42 Slydie wrote: Someone should really break down the results of the 5 BW Bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr, Flash) and figure out it was really fair not to award that title to anyone in SC2. MVP, Life, Maru, Serral and others have had very good results over a long time too. I don't think there's anyone in SC2 who has had a bonjwa-esque run. In 2002 season, Nada won 3/3 MSL and 1/3 OSL (he won the OSL in 2003 but it started in 2002). That's 4 out of 6 of the most important tournaments. From November 2003 to November 2004, iloveoov won 3 MSLs in a row as well as an OSL (along with OSL semi). That's also 4 out of 6 of the Starleagues within that time period. Flash is the most impressive. He was in all 6 Starleague finals in 2010 and won 4 of them (he also won WCG). There's probably no SC2 player who had a run that was close to any of these three. Boxer won 2 OSL, OSL final, and WCG in 2001 (there was only one MSL in 2001). So he won 2/4 Starleagues and was in 3/4 finals. Savior was in 4 MSL finals in a row (won 3 of them) and then made an OSL finals the season after his streak of MSL finals Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why). For comparison, I look at Maru and Serral's peaks (I think they are the highest and I don't know much about WoL so I excluded Mvp). In 2018, Maru won 4/9 of the premier tournaments (3 out of 5 among GSL, IEM WC, Blizzcon) he was in for 2018. Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon). It's hard to compare things to Brood War because they didn't have much else besides MSL and OSL, which were very prestigious. However, in SC2 there are many tournaments, some more prestigious than others. The thing is, I think Serral and Maru both came close to Boxer and Savior's runs in 2018 but that very fact means neither can be bonjwa, as a bonjwa is supposed to have no rival near him. That is the main reason why Jaedong was not considered a bonjwa in 2009. To give an example, I think you'd have to do something ridiculous like win Blizzcon, 1-2 GSL, IEM WC to be equivalent to a Brood War bonjwa. Note: I should've mentioned other smaller tournaments that the older bonjwas won but I decided not to because I think what I said was already enough and I know very little about the obscure tournaments. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On September 09 2019 17:42 Zeon0 wrote: We should absolutely start another Serral = Bonjwa discussion Haha. Trying to point out irrelevance of whole "discussion" as the term itself have no meaning. Instead, 'Serral' is used like an adjective or noun to describe something far above and beyond a field; "Blah blah you're like Serral", "Serralishque", "Serral-like"... People get 'Serraled' if they got overran decisively. These usages are starting to cover also other fields of life than just esports. We don't need that word 'Bonjwa' anymore in practice, as several intended, and implicitly included (but seldom clarified) meanings of the word actually appear already much better in usage of variously suffixed Serral-words. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
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elKa-ThE-FeArEd
Sweden177 Posts
the lingmicro vs heromarine before his queen pops out vs the reaper , so many small details that he just master | ||
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stilt
France2752 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:56 Farentir wrote: Maybe in WCS, but I'd like to remind you the Qlash tournament in Italy, and while Reynor ultimatedly prevailed, Drogo defeated on the winner bracket and gave him a really hard time. It's weird, in other tournaments, Reynor seems vulnerable even against foreigners but in wcs only Serral can stop him. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote: I don't think there's anyone in SC2 who has had a bonjwa-esque run. In 2002 season, Nada won 3/3 MSL and 1/3 OSL (he won the OSL in 2003 but it started in 2002). That's 4 out of 6 of the most important tournaments. From November 2003 to November 2004, iloveoov won 3 MSLs in a row as well as an OSL (along with OSL semi). That's also 4 out of 6 of the Starleagues within that time period. Flash is the most impressive. He was in all 6 Starleague finals in 2010 and won 4 of them (he also won WCG). There's probably no SC2 player who had a run that was close to any of these three. Boxer won 2 OSL, OSL final, and WCG in 2001 (there was only one MSL in 2001). So he won 2/4 Starleagues and was in 3/4 finals. Savior was in 4 MSL finals in a row (won 3 of them) and then made an OSL finals the season after his streak of MSL finals Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why). For comparison, I look at Maru and Serral's peaks (I think they are the highest and I don't know much about WoL so I excluded Mvp). In 2018, Maru won 4/9 of the premier tournaments (3 out of 5 among GSL, IEM WC, Blizzcon) he was in for 2018. Serral won 7/9. If you exclude WCS Circuit and HSC, he won 2/4 (1/2 among IEM WC and Blizzcon). It's hard to compare things to Brood War because they didn't have much else besides MSL and OSL, which were very prestigious. However, in SC2 there are many tournaments, some more prestigious than others. The thing is, I think Serral and Maru both came close to Boxer and Savior's runs in 2018 but that very fact means neither can be bonjwa, as a bonjwa is supposed to have no rival near him. That is the main reason why Jaedong was not considered a bonjwa in 2009. To give an example, I think you'd have to do something ridiculous like win Blizzcon, 1-2 GSL, IEM WC to be equivalent to a Brood War bonjwa. Note: I should've mentioned other smaller tournaments that the older bonjwas won but I decided not to because I think what I said was already enough and I know very little about the obscure tournaments. Career winrate has nothing to with being Bonjwa(the earlier Bonjwas in Brood War had time to grow old and weaker so that their overall win ratio considerably declined); in any of case, just to name three, Byun had a 71% career winrate(only 59% offline) while Serral has 69% overall(67.5% offline) and Inno 67.5%(64%): comparable with those of the BW players you listed. Only one between Serral and Maru could theorically be bonjwa(as it was the case of Flash over Jaedong), but having two players that dominant doesn't imply that none of them could be. To my understanding, being a Bonjwa isn't necessarily restricted to a one year run but simply to certain period of absolute domination which could be shorter or(very rarely) longer; Serral, Life, Maru, Rogue, Mvp, TaeJa all had periods of bonjwaesque domination over Sc2, of which Serral's is statistically the most dominant(if we look at his streak of his 6 Premier titles) or the most prolonged(20 months to win 10 Premier tournaments out of the 17 he participated in; note that Serral can steal beat TaeJa's 11 Premier titles out of 33 obtained in 24 months). The main point is that Brood War had a single scene with a well established hierarchy in tournaments, making it way easier to understand who the best player was, and Bonjwa is a title tied to unanimous recognition. Serral's problem(as well as TaeJa's and, to a certain extent, even Life's before him) is that this won't happen unless he wins Code S, since part of the community will keep ignoring his WCS titles. If we look at numbers and titles alone, Serral is a de facto Bonjwa(undefeated in series for over ten months, best offline streak ever and best streak against koreans, against whom Serral holds a 80%+ win ratio in series since the start of 2018; on less than 50 matches, a size comparable to the games Dark will play against koreans in 2019, but against opponents of very high average ranking: roughly 15, worse being 67, which means he only faced the hardest competition). | ||
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