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On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 %  (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon  (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cT3Fimc.png) Maru (recent 6 months period): ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ljUG1vx.png) Maru during his reign of domination: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ETeIBjY.png) Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FzZSy3L.png) Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
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Addendum: Oh, I should've included the data below that portion of the screen, which shows the match %, which would favor Serral by an even more massive margin.
Oddly, if you change the search filter to Country: non-Koreans, Serral would still win slightly in match %, but is 6% behind in game % than Maru vs foreigners. My hypothesis is that since the only tournaments where Koreans get to play foreigners are really big ones, with massive prize pools, the motivation to win is significant bigger. Since they don't know how foreigners play, they'd rely more on their skill and use mostly reliable/safe strategies to win rather than take risks, as they might vs each other. Foreigners are more familiar with how Serral plays, and they're all gunning for him, so Serral does have that bit of a "disadvantage" that Koreans don't. However, Serral adapts well to their countermeasures, so he still wins out in match %.
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On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose?
The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
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On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date.
We are talking about career win rates.
On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose? The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it.
Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more.
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On September 10 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. We are talking about career win rates. Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose? The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it. Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more.
Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated.
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On September 09 2019 21:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
In regards to 2019 you might have a point, that several foreigners are on par with the world class koreans. For 2018 look at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon, look at the results, the brackets and tell me that the top 10 players in the world had more than one foreigner (Serral).
Serral dominating the foreign scene in 2018 does not even register for a bonjwa discussion, it is his 2019 results that does that. Sadly the reason Serral is dominating "the world" argueably this year is because the level of play in korea has deteriorated. Look at the GSL vs world results in 2019 and compare it to 2018, it is evident foreigners are stronger compared to koreans than in previous years and therefore Serrals domination of the wcs circuit means more.
...strange argumentation imho... - smells like korean-biased
"...the level of play in korea has deteriorated..." - why don't you assume, the EU scene or the foreign scene has become immensly better?
usually the alltogether skill level would increase over time and shifting meta, maybe the foreign skill level just increased faster?
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On September 10 2019 21:47 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. We are talking about career win rates. On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose? The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it. Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more. Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated.
Fair enough.
I don't understand why several of us are getting different results on aligulac though.
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On September 10 2019 23:42 Tommy131313 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2019 21:31 Shuffleblade wrote:
In regards to 2019 you might have a point, that several foreigners are on par with the world class koreans. For 2018 look at GSL vs the world and Blizzcon, look at the results, the brackets and tell me that the top 10 players in the world had more than one foreigner (Serral).
Serral dominating the foreign scene in 2018 does not even register for a bonjwa discussion, it is his 2019 results that does that. Sadly the reason Serral is dominating "the world" argueably this year is because the level of play in korea has deteriorated. Look at the GSL vs world results in 2019 and compare it to 2018, it is evident foreigners are stronger compared to koreans than in previous years and therefore Serrals domination of the wcs circuit means more. ...strange argumentation imho... - smells like korean-biased "...the level of play in korea has deteriorated..." - why don't you assume, the EU scene or the foreign scene has become immensly better? usually the alltogether skill level would increase over time and shifting meta, maybe the foreign skill level just increased faster?
Serral himself said that they got lucky in this year GSLvTW. So how much is he right? 
On September 10 2019 23:56 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 21:47 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. We are talking about career win rates. On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:
[quote]
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose? The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it. Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more. Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated. Fair enough. I don't understand why several of us are getting different results on aligulac though.
I was posting all offline matches, not just Koreans. That's why my numbers were different. And probably not from the start of WoL which shouldn't affect that much considering I wasn't picking the top WoL players anyway.
That's how I got that insane Inno numbers. And let's be fair - many of the games come from Proleague(that's why Taeja's number of games is so low)
(edit> to be fair, the KeSPA giants havem ost of the games from vsKoreans, only minimal numbers from foreign games, unless they're Taeja )
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On September 10 2019 23:56 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 21:47 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 21:33 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On September 09 2019 18:45 Anc13nt wrote:
Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold. The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2. Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level. Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. We are talking about career win rates. On September 10 2019 21:20 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 21:11 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 20:57 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 10 2019 17:38 sneakyfox wrote:On September 10 2019 10:10 Anc13nt wrote:On September 10 2019 08:25 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 07:51 Jeremy Reimer wrote:
[quote]
I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.
The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.
Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.
Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash. Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time. If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans. offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners) Worse players(or less consistent) have worse stats, e.g. Zest at 63 % (and Zest isn't that much worse) Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect. Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice. BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact) if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates. Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present. It's 52.94%, if averaged since precisely 12 months ago. If reduced to 6 months (March 10 - present), it's 48.33%. Maru (recent 6 months period): Maru during his reign of domination: Serral, between GSL vs TW 2018 and now, vs Koreans only: Overall, Serral has the highest win % vs Koreans by a large margin, to date. You noticed we were talking career numbers, or you just ignored it on purpose? The person I was replying to stated what he thought Inno's games % vs Korean IS. Keyword: IS. So, I used the most recent record. If you want, you can move the calendar as far back as you like, and post the percentages that include the beginning of his career. No need to get defensive about it. Go back and read the text you yourself quoted once more. Sorry, I stand corrected. Entering in the calendar date for the beginning of Innovation's career (July 2012), I get 64.69%, and 62.39% vs S. Korea. Still very good, and close to your % stated. Fair enough. I don't understand why several of us are getting different results on aligulac though.
Everyone of us can even quote and copy-paste their page (by the site option) they are looking at.
Linking that same page (you're looking at) is another option (by what ever browser). Come on!
Can't do that, then simply:
CTRL-C CTRL-V
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If Aligulac copy-pasta doesn't support your personal references, please contact to admins of the site.
Basic information about criterions here:
http://aligulac.com/about/faq/
If predictive power of the mathematical formula has 1% error, I personally take that site over these boards, no matter how many "qualitative" remarks may appear (they do).
At least someone does it right.
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..been watching sc pretty much since the start. Serral IS the best player i think ive seen at this game. Would love to see him do a terran/toss switch and see if he could do the same and just cement legendary status as the best player of Starcraft.
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WCS
