Go to 1:48.A tank is in siege mode,its range is 13 and there's a circle marking the range.Then let a BL attack the tank,you can see the BL starts its attack outside the circle,that's to say,the BL's range is more than 13 when targeting a unit.
From 2:46,the video shows the difference between BL's a-move and attacking target.Thor's anti-air range is 11,which is more than BL's range.But thors can't return fire when BLs just target one thor.
Is this different from what people have known for a long time — that you can "attack" something closer than your intended target just to get your broodlings out before changing target? Beastyqt included that aspect in his "17 things you wish you knew earlier in Starcraft 2 - Zerg Edition" video a while back and people have known about that aspect for a long time before he made the vid.
On August 21 2019 09:55 gnuoy000 wrote: Is this different from what people have known for a long time — that you can "attack" something closer than your intended target just to get your broodlings out before changing target? Beastyqt included that aspect in his "17 things you wish you knew earlier in Starcraft 2 - Zerg Edition" video a while back and people have known about that aspect for a long time before he made the vid.
So the video uploader explained that the maximum distance that a broodlord can release broodlings is 13 instead of 10 if you attack on a unit, whereas if you a-move on ground the broodlings get triggered only when enemy units are within the 10 range of broodlords. I don't know if it is a bug or a feature but it does seem a bit unfair to call BLs to have a 'range of 10'.
Also, the uploader mentioned that the broodling triggering range has been increased from 12 to 13. He found it because it was 12 in an arcade map in which unit attributes were not always synchronized with the balance updates. I think he is kind of insinuating that this triggering range was increased intentionally.
So the gist is that when BL attacks a specific target, the range is longer than when attacking ground. Not to sound like a conspiracist, but I think this is gonna be a feature, not a bug.
This has been known since the beginning of time. If you pay attention to a zerg's control in late game, you'll notice every professional zerg kites broodlords like this to extend their range.
It's been like this since wings of liberty, and is well known, at least to the players I play with.
Is this not kind of like the leash range and stuff with carriers and interceptors, that used to be more useful in BW? The weirdest thing I've seen is when the broods actually fly very far away from the brood lord but then fly back and don't attack.
On August 21 2019 09:55 gnuoy000 wrote: Is this different from what people have known for a long time — that you can "attack" something closer than your intended target just to get your broodlings out before changing target? Beastyqt included that aspect in his "17 things you wish you knew earlier in Starcraft 2 - Zerg Edition" video a while back and people have known about that aspect for a long time before he made the vid.
On August 21 2019 09:55 gnuoy000 wrote: Is this different from what people have known for a long time — that you can "attack" something closer than your intended target just to get your broodlings out before changing target? Beastyqt included that aspect in his "17 things you wish you knew earlier in Starcraft 2 - Zerg Edition" video a while back and people have known about that aspect for a long time before he made the vid.
In that video the broodlord never adquires a range of 13, Let me explain. What happened is he shot every single broodling at the same time in ground units have collision not like in air, so, that makes that all broodlings try to spread away from each other and way from the thors, so that causes that some broodlings get to the far away thor. And no the broodlord never shot at 13 range he shot at 10 and the damage the broodlord does is done in the 10 range, but the broodlings that spread further away just make the damage the broodling does. And if the broodlord aquires 13 range the thors woulnd't never get to shot them, it was just a xploit from the colision of units and the thors getting stuck between broodlings.
Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
NO. If you use A-move, the BL will NOT shoot its broodling at 13 range. When the BL begin be able to shoot its broodlings, it is already 10 range from the target. If you use "attacking a unit", when the BL shoot its broodlings, the BL itself is still 13 range away from target.
I don't say whether it is a bug, a feature, intended or exploit that should be fixed, but I felt that Blizzard should make it clear, and the community update of which "reduce brood lord range from 11 to 10 in order to match Thor's anti-air range" just looked ridiculous.
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
NO. If you use A-move, the BL will NOT shoot its broodling at 13 range. When the BL begin be able to shoot its broodlings, it is already 10 range from the target. If you use "attacking a unit", when the BL shoot its broodlings, the BL itself is still 13 range away from target.
I don't say whether it is a bug, a feature, intended or exploit that should be fixed, but I felt that Blizzard should make it clear, and the community update of which "reduce brood lord range from 11 to 10 in order to match Thor's anti-air range" just looked ridiculous.
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
It is a discussion because someone who isn't graced with your knowledge and experience noticed something that seemed outside of blizzards intention and brought it up.
You started your post crappy but then offered good information... like a hundred dollar bill covered in poop.
The Broodlord is a very weird unit, it does not actually have an attack. It's perceived attack/weapon is a dummy that is just there so that the Broodlord doesn't run closer to its targets than necessary (think of the High Templar Attack that was implemented for that reason in Legacy, though that one actually is not just a dummy).
The Broodlord actually works more like a carrier. It carries up to two Broodlings which get released when it comes close to a target and stops moving. Those Broodlings will launch themselves onto an enemy and they have a one-time impact effect that benefits from flyer upgrades, i.e. what is perceived as the Broodlord attack damage. The Broodlord then produces one Broodling every fews seconds, which is the perceived attack speed.
Since the Broodlings have a greater aggro range than the Broodlords range, they will still launch from further away if you stop the Broodlord outside of its attack range but still inside of the aggro range.
On August 22 2019 20:03 Big J wrote: The Broodlord is a very weird unit, it does not actually have an attack. It's perceived attack/weapon is a dummy that is just there so that the Broodlord doesn't run closer to its targets than necessary (think of the High Templar Attack that was implemented for that reason in Legacy, though that one actually is not just a dummy).
The Broodlord actually works more like a carrier. It carries up to two Broodlings which get released when it comes close to a target and stops moving. Those Broodlings will launch themselves onto an enemy and they have a one-time impact effect that benefits from flyer upgrades, i.e. what is perceived as the Broodlord attack damage. The Broodlord then produces one Broodling every fews seconds, which is the perceived attack speed.
Since the Broodlings have a greater aggro range than the Broodlords range, they will still launch from further away if you stop the Broodlord outside of its attack range but still inside of the aggro range.
Which results sometimes in the animation of broodlings sitting in the air and broodlord moving away
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
Okay .... So I really disliked your post the first time I read it.
Now .... Today, Timestamp this ish 2 minutes ago, Dark was blown away in unit testing to find out how far beyond a seige tanks range he could get broodlords to start firing.
Turns out .... the top korean zerg in the world didn't find this to be common knowledge and did multiple tests to confirm the result.
So.... No. It is not common knowledge exactly how a broodlord works pro gamers .... you know the best are still learning about this unit.
Also, he confirmed your "attack a unit" vs "a-moving" was completely WRONG. On attack move, it moves to range 10 with or without the 'broodlings activated'.
So... the part where I called your post a hundred dollar bill. That part was wrong.
This bug could be one of the reasons why Terran struggle so much in the late game vs Zerg. A unit should not get 3 bonus range if you use micro, imagine if tanks got 3 extra range when you focus fire the tank shots?
for something that is supposedly known since WoL--since the start of time basically--- some of these posts are still misinformed and debating against one another. this is why there's a discussion. i believe the attack ground command has always been 10 range no matter what.
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
Okay .... So I really disliked your post the first time I read it.
Now .... Today, Timestamp this ish 2 minutes ago, Dark was blown away in unit testing to find out how far beyond a seige tanks range he could get broodlords to start firing.
Turns out .... the top korean zerg in the world didn't find this to be common knowledge and did multiple tests to confirm the result.
So.... No. It is not common knowledge exactly how a broodlord works pro gamers .... you know the best are still learning about this unit.
Also, he confirmed your "attack a unit" vs "a-moving" was completely WRONG. On attack move, it moves to range 10 with or without the 'broodlings activated'.
So... the part where I called your post a hundred dollar bill. That part was wrong.
Sometimes they don't know things many lower league players know about the game. but they have them mechanics, instincts and stuff, so it doesn't matter
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
Okay .... So I really disliked your post the first time I read it.
Now .... Today, Timestamp this ish 2 minutes ago, Dark was blown away in unit testing to find out how far beyond a seige tanks range he could get broodlords to start firing.
Turns out .... the top korean zerg in the world didn't find this to be common knowledge and did multiple tests to confirm the result.
So.... No. It is not common knowledge exactly how a broodlord works pro gamers .... you know the best are still learning about this unit.
Also, he confirmed your "attack a unit" vs "a-moving" was completely WRONG. On attack move, it moves to range 10 with or without the 'broodlings activated'.
So... the part where I called your post a hundred dollar bill. That part was wrong.
Sometimes they don't know things many lower league players know about the game. but they have them mechanics, instincts and stuff, so it doesn't matter
For the record you could see Dark use this micro in GSL yesterday.
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
Okay .... So I really disliked your post the first time I read it.
Now .... Today, Timestamp this ish 2 minutes ago, Dark was blown away in unit testing to find out how far beyond a seige tanks range he could get broodlords to start firing.
Turns out .... the top korean zerg in the world didn't find this to be common knowledge and did multiple tests to confirm the result.
So.... No. It is not common knowledge exactly how a broodlord works pro gamers .... you know the best are still learning about this unit.
Also, he confirmed your "attack a unit" vs "a-moving" was completely WRONG. On attack move, it moves to range 10 with or without the 'broodlings activated'.
So... the part where I called your post a hundred dollar bill. That part was wrong.
Sometimes they don't know things many lower league players know about the game. but they have them mechanics, instincts and stuff, so it doesn't matter
For the record you could see Dark use this micro in GSL yesterday.
Maybe he didn't know BL have bigger range this way though. I was aiming them to shoot units I want and I didn't know it, I realized it once I switched to Terran and realized I cannot reach them with Thors while everybody told me they hardcounter them
Edit> With a-move they will shoot hellbats, as Terrans put them in front of thors, or...? Just saying another option if Dark was surprised as the quoted post says.
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
Okay .... So I really disliked your post the first time I read it.
Now .... Today, Timestamp this ish 2 minutes ago, Dark was blown away in unit testing to find out how far beyond a seige tanks range he could get broodlords to start firing.
Turns out .... the top korean zerg in the world didn't find this to be common knowledge and did multiple tests to confirm the result.
So.... No. It is not common knowledge exactly how a broodlord works pro gamers .... you know the best are still learning about this unit.
Also, he confirmed your "attack a unit" vs "a-moving" was completely WRONG. On attack move, it moves to range 10 with or without the 'broodlings activated'.
So... the part where I called your post a hundred dollar bill. That part was wrong.
Sometimes they don't know things many lower league players know about the game. but they have them mechanics, instincts and stuff, so it doesn't matter
For the record you could see Dark use this micro in GSL yesterday.
I agree, being a professional video gamer player doesn't make you know everything.
Years of zergs didn't know how to Slide larva, micro drones, magic box muta, magic box drop lord ect....
My problem with his post, aside from containing straight up fake news, was that he dismissed this conversation as if "Only a bunch of idiots could not know this", which even if it was true, is anti-intellectual but .... it was even more annoying to find out that not only was his info not accurate, but ... it isn't "common knowledge" if the people stacking thousands don't know it. It may be knowledge. Common is "Inject or die" or "f2 is crap it moves your overseers out of place" or "spread creep" ... that is common.
The specifics of broodlords are obviously not that simple ... he managed to write a post that contained very little correct information, aside from the 13 range part, that is the one thing that seems to hold up.
It's also possible that Dark, with his thousands and thousands of hours playing zerg, subconsciously knew that he got better results when he targeted with his broodlords, but didn't know why.
On August 22 2019 05:17 Ronski wrote: Why is this even a discussion? Broodlords can shoot from further away than 10 range it has been known since WOL, but if you just A-move they will keep moving forward untill they reach range of 10 and then they will stop. To keep shooting from further away you have to constantly micro them.
Also has nothing to do with "Attacking a unit" vs "A-moving", the broodlord has further range no matter how you execute the attack, you just have to turn around as soon as the broodlings activate which happens at around 13ish range.
Okay .... So I really disliked your post the first time I read it.
Now .... Today, Timestamp this ish 2 minutes ago, Dark was blown away in unit testing to find out how far beyond a seige tanks range he could get broodlords to start firing.
Turns out .... the top korean zerg in the world didn't find this to be common knowledge and did multiple tests to confirm the result.
So.... No. It is not common knowledge exactly how a broodlord works pro gamers .... you know the best are still learning about this unit.
Also, he confirmed your "attack a unit" vs "a-moving" was completely WRONG. On attack move, it moves to range 10 with or without the 'broodlings activated'.
So... the part where I called your post a hundred dollar bill. That part was wrong.
Sometimes they don't know things many lower league players know about the game. but they have them mechanics, instincts and stuff, so it doesn't matter
For the record you could see Dark use this micro in GSL yesterday.
Now I understand better how he lost so few BLs against so many Thors.
I don't think it matters whether the progamers are aware of this mechanism or not - they are allowed to play with what they've got within the fair rules. The question lies in whether Blizzard identifies this as a bug or do they even bother to address this issue at all at this point.
I wonder does blizz knows this? they buffed thors to supposedly "outrange" Broodlords, and hard counter them, yet we never saw people massing thors and everyone was asking why people massing vkings and ghost? when thors hard counter bls?
I think this proofs without benefit of doubt that blizz balance department didnt knew this, since, thors range buff does exactly nothing if yo micro broods.
Now the question is, is it fair that microing broods destroys thors? Well i think its fair that microing unit can win vs a-move unit.
But wait, what i think is unfair that you literally cant micro thor, if you try to micro it, it will perform worse. Massing thors right now is "OP diamond rank strategy", while thor is useless above that. Thor needs to changed, What exactly is it role now in terrans army? Terran army except for Marine have highly specialized units, and thor doesnt have any role in it, every of its role other units does better.
Thor needs to be completely remade, my choice would be, make it microable anti capital air mech unit.
On August 31 2019 15:42 skdsk wrote: I wonder does blizz knows this? they buffed thors to supposedly "outrange" Broodlords, and hard counter them, yet we never saw people massing thors and everyone was asking why people massing vkings and ghost? when thors hard counter bls?
I think this proofs without benefit of doubt that blizz balance department didnt knew this, since, thors range buff does exactly nothing if yo micro broods.
Now the question is, is it fair that microing broods destroys thors? Well i think its fair that microing unit can win vs a-move unit.
But wait, what i think is unfair that you literally cant micro thor, if you try to micro it, it will perform worse. Massing thors right now is "OP diamond rank strategy", while thor is useless above that. Thor needs to changed, What exactly is it role now in terrans army? Terran army except for Marine have highly specialized units, and thor doesnt have any role in it, every of its role other units does better.
Thor needs to be completely remade, my choice would be, make it microable anti capital air mech unit.
Below are what blizzard said in their community update:
Thor
*High Impact Payload weapon range increased from 10 to 11.
We’ve received feedback that TvP late-game still feels Protoss-favored. We believe that by further pushing the Thor’s anti-Massive role, we can open up other late-game TvP options, such as ranged Liberators and Battlecruisers.
Additionally, we’d like for Thors to be slightly more powerful at dislodging enemy Liberators, which we believe will reduce the importance of air control in TvT and promote mid/late-game interaction.
As range adjustments have historically been very impactful, we’ll be keeping an especially close eye on this change.
EPT
