WCSTLnet Map Contest 13 Finalists - Page 2
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada3912 Posts
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Chemist391
United States308 Posts
On July 02 2019 09:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Just the thumbnail of Purity and Industry is immediately eye-catching. It's very reminiscent of Scrap Station. | ||
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johnnywup
United States3544 Posts
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johnnywup
United States3544 Posts
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themusic246
United States164 Posts
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WenHe
20 Posts
On July 02 2019 04:16 Waxangel wrote: I hope it does because it would have the same translated name as Cloud Kingdom in Korean and many other locales  haha, I notice that | ||
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WenHe
20 Posts
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Avexyli
United States682 Posts
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WenHe
20 Posts
On July 02 2019 13:47 Avexyli wrote: All maps are uploaded with the [TLMC13] Tag on all servers. all servers?include China? | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands552 Posts
'Purity and Industry' caught my attention because of the color scheme so I loaded it up in a single player game and it looks really nice, I'll definitely get some games in on this map too. | ||
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johnnywup
United States3544 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain14232 Posts
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Marras
Finland41 Posts
On July 03 2019 18:32 Acrofales wrote: Didn't watch all the games yesterday, but was purity and industry played? It seems very unique. It's like the oooooold scrap station map, but with inhibitor zones making air less brutally OP. I believe it was played twice, once after the halfway point and then quite near the end iirc. | ||
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General_Winter
United States145 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain14232 Posts
On July 03 2019 19:13 Marras wrote: I believe it was played twice, once after the halfway point and then quite near the end iirc. Saw Reynor vs Clem on it today. It is a beautiful map. Clem was gonna try some liberator shenanigans, but Reynor was doing a pretty standard nydus timing, overextended and died, so not a good show of whether it's actually very balanced or not. But it looks gorgeous. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2206 Posts
So, all of my maps didn't get into the finalists, that's fine...I get it... but the thing that really drives me crazy is when I look at how often my maps were "downloaded" by the judges (The platform I give my .sc2map files showcase me anytime the map gets downloaded) and 3 outta 6 of my maps didn't get downloaded (the overview got viewed by the looks of it from tl.net TLMC thread!) That's okay, all my overviews got viewed by AT LEAST ONE judge out of the... five? six? (according to the download site + TL.net) Then I hear balance complaint after balance complaint... Yet when I look at those maps compared to some of these finalists... wait..., what??? One of my submitted maps (Dunes of Destiny) got top 7 in a different map contest, it was a Korean map making competition. At the end of the day, many people loved the layout and the overall strategy of the map..., especially since it was so different. That's great! Hopefully it does well in TLMC when I resubmit it!!! Hell, even the feedback from the past TLMC and the last Korean map tournament should only make it that much better, hence why I made the natural easier to defend, the third easier to defend and the rocks re-positioned..."""All of the judges were impressed with the design of this map.""" {pre-feedback) and I hope after all their feedback it only gets better!!!!1111 At that point,it didn't even get downloaded from the judges of TLMC #13 once and at the end of the day, the overview only got one download... ONE DOWNLOAD from a map that all judges were impressed with the previous TLMC... This map that won a Korean map tournament and I changed the layout according to feedback from all the judges and yet now... not a single TLMC #13 download? Seriously... Like, seriously? Soooo... what's the difference? You say the 3rd choke is too open? You say the middle is boring? This map, before hand, was a top 7 outta hundreds of maps and after I change it according to the feedback to make it more balanced never got downloaded one time from TLMC #13???) You say the "paths" aren't good? Seriously? Nothing? No map download? One overview download? That's how you judge it??? How could a map that was top 7 outta what, 150 maps and then I edited it according to FEEDBACK from judges doesn't get a single download in TLMC #13??? --- Ughhh!!! ...Anyway, onto the "finalists..." --- STANDARD --- Simulacrum is...well as -0 said, a piece of garbage map that was created in about 5 hours. It's the Ascension to Aiur map. It's good enough...whatever, win it all. Hey -0, you did it again. The map you created in a few hours will now be the map of 2019 because Mizen saw a good SoO game on it. Biosphere? Wow, you submit this map and I just thought you were fucking with everybody but guess what... it's negative zero soooo yeahh, give him at least a finalist or two. I'm glad for a "standard" map there is only 1 attack path for the first... 10? 15 minutes? of the game unless you take rocks down? But yeah, standard, force players to attack certain paths and force macro games... oh wait... should this be a macro map? Nahhh, it's "small enough!" Ever Dream I actually think this is a little unique even though you HAVE to expand to the north (defensive or aggressive base) to take a 3rd because no way will you take the triangular third). You won't take the third base with a high yield gas and the triangluar base is so far from your nat and super open... Earthrise, seriously? Just like the other fucking map which shares Cloud Kingdom's name... LOL. FFS, such a joke. I mean, truthfully it's not a bad map but at this point, why would you use this over Cloud Kingdom? Can we just take Cloud Kingdom and change the aesthetics to this style and congrats, not only is it a better map but the "style" has changed! The best part about it is tanks or libs by the forward third base which completely cuts off the choke/ramp/other 3rd base. There is also a shit ton of air space, but hey.... it looks cool. It's by Marras, let's give it a shot. What's the point of the rocks he added by the forward 3rd? Truth be told... they don't matter? But hey... it's purple, blue and dark sooo... fuck it, winner! --- MACRO: --- Eternal Empire - Didn't we already see this map in the other category? Oh yeah, Earthrise... wait... So it's the same exact damn map but like 30x30 bigger? PS. Don't believe me? Rotate it 90 degrees. It's basically what -0 did to get catalyst and blue shift back to back winners. Yeah, yaaaawn. Once more, judges are blinded by... uhh, you tell me? Cloud Monarchy - This map is... well, different..., although look at all the shit load of main air space there is. It's funny because a map of mine... and another few other maps in this tournament got eliminated because there was "too much air space" but then I look at this and I'm like... wait a minute.... The other issue is that everything is choked off and there really isn't anything greater than 3x force field chokes. Which again is hilarious because one of my "macro" maps (this same category) got eliminated because there wasn't anything other than 3x wide choke points. Fun... Fun fun fun... Golden Forge - Interesting enough, no issues with it, good enough map, different enough, can expand either way, can go aggro or defensive, props dude. Hurricane - I don't even know... To choke the nat you have to go soooo far forward or else you have sooo much cliff/air space. The third is super open, the vertical 4th is very aggressive, the horizontal 4th is very awkward, it makes no sense how this map won the "macro" category. I mean... it looks good? Soooo..., sure? The middle is boring as shit? Hey, nazi symble but wide with a giant block in the center! Look at the middle 4 bases, guess what, you won't take those! Seriously? Ffs TL... --- Challenge #1: --- Avant Garde - inbase natural with a forward natural that takes 3x3 buildings to wall? How is this... ANY DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER INBASE NATURAL MAP??? Look at every other inbase natural map, they have the "free" base with the "3x3" 3rd base. This is the same exact shit. But guess what?!?!? There is a mineral wall in the middle!!! LOL!!!!! Like, seriously? This map doesn't do anything new with mineral walls and look, the inbase nat instead of rocks has "mineral walls!!!!" it's the same exact fucking thing!! But hey, sure, it's a "standard" map that has "mineral walls"... make it a winner!!! Podcast - Waaait what? Timmay? With a map that actually uses the challenge and makes it somewhat interesting? The forward third is safe unless you attack from the long way. The "safe" third is somewhat safe unless you come up from a choke. There's even a forward mineral wall base with high yield gas which you may want to take to get the extra gas but it's super tough to defend. Once more, Timmay creates a great "challenge" map. Truthfully, will it do well with players/community/programers? Probably not, but within TLMC, a map like this is sooo much more superior than "standard map #288 with added mineral walls to create safe 3rd" Golden Wall - Another great Challenge #1 map. Top half you fight unless you mine out the bottom half. That's great for the challenge map! Although, wait... why did Avant Garde do well because that's just a standard map with random minerals walls...? No clue... Either way, Avant Garde will probably be the "winner" of Challenge 1 because guess what? The challenge... the mineral walls don't watter because even without the mineral walls the map still isn't that damn terrible. So at this point, even though Golden Wall does "mineral walls" the best of them all, Avant Garde will probably win the vote because it's standard and the "gimmick" affects it the least! Zen - Ya know, so many maps got instantly disqualified because the "high yield bases were OP" and then this map has a completely useless high yield gas bases but apparently that's okay? Same with random bases that are next to the main? (Truthfully, the horizontal bases to the main will NEVER be taken because the ground distance is waaaaaaay too long) but hey... it's choked off. It has some random "mineral walls" to extend the ground distance sooo.. it's good? It reminds me of Avant Garde a bit... Create a standard map, throw some random mineral walls in it and...CONGRATS! zzz, waste of a spot. --- Challenge #2: --- Zeta Orion - Two.... Two IZG that "COULD" affect the gameplay of the map and THIS is the winner of the CHALLENGE TWO category? Are you fucking serious? The middle IZG won't do shit. The corner IZG don't matter in 95% of the games. Like, seriously? This is one of the maps which has the "best use of IZG out of everything else?" I look at this and I can't help but laugh. The IZG don't do anything because the fastest scouting/attack path doesn't even go through them. It's just... I can't help but think this is a joke. Polaris - Just read what I said with Zeta Orion about IZG although why would you ever take the lowground third? Maybe you like to get harassed and fucked over? Maybe you don't like choices? Maybe you like limited expansion paths? Do these IZG even do anything in this map? Is this map even any good as a "standard" map? Guess what? Nope! Even the mineral placement of the bases is trash. (forward 4th? triangular 3rd?) This honestly may be the worst map of the bunch, no offense Killersmile but... seriously? Give the random trophy to you just like we did with Arch of Janus!!!! Purity and Industry - It's macro enough. It's new enough. It spams IZG enough. It makes Air play a little less weak. Truthfully, the overall layout is kind of boring even though many of these diagnol maps you can't really do much different but it should be fun enough. The random high yield gas bases are too aggressive and not any good and same with the high yield mineral base. Remember scrap station, fast rush the corner gold and if you don't scout it you were behind? Guess whaaaaa???? There are issues with this map but at least the IZG usages is interesting enough for a challenge #2 map because it really forces you to either go ground or go "slow" air units. --- Overall, I congratulation all the winners! I don't want to take any of the honors away from you because winning TLMC is a great honor but truthfully, as I look at the winning maps I'm a little disappointed with the results. Either way, I'm starting to get burnt out which is unfortunate as I feel I've created many amazing maps for the SC2 community... Either way... Cheers TLMC winners! Congrats! User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Avexyli
United States682 Posts
So, another TLMC, another reason why I just don't really give a shit. TLMC is the only way to get your map onto ladder and once more, the finalists on TLMC either blow fucking ass, they are the "best" maps submitted out of ~150 maps, or the judges are biased and think they are the greatest maps ever. That's the biggest problem. TLMC is THE mapping tournament. It's THE tournament that you make your maps and submit them, you cross your fingers and you pray you get into the top 16. If you don't, fuuuuck, you lost... best of luck! Although... wait... Why did this piece of garbage map beat the others? Oh yeah, I have no clue!! Aside from just non-targeted rage, let's break down these parts: the finalists on TLMC either blow fucking ass, they are the "best" maps submitted out of ~150 maps, or the judges are biased and think they are the greatest maps ever. Is this not every option possible? They're awful maps, they're good for what was given, or we genuinely think they are S+ tier, what are the other choices we have? If you don't, fuuuuck, you lost... best of luck! Although... wait... Why did this piece of garbage map beat the others? Oh yeah, I have no clue!... One of my submitted maps (Dunes of Destiny) got top 7 in a different map contest, it was a Korean map making competition. At the end of the day, many people loved the layout and the overall strategy of the map..., especially since it was so different. That's great! Hopefully it does well in TLMC when I resubmit it!!! Hell, even the feedback from the past TLMC and the last Korean map tournament should only make it that much better, hence why I made the natural easier to defend, the third easier to defend and the rocks re-positioned..."""All of the judges were impressed with the design of this map.""" {pre-feedback) and I hope after all their feedback it only gets better!!!!1111 There's a general point here, that there seems to be inconsistencies in what judges favor per TLMC, what they say and what they ask for, or what they look for. This is because the Judges are not often the same each time around, sometimes we are lacking in Terran judges, sometimes Protoss, sometimes entire players switch out (for example, Snute did not participate in TLMC13). Other times, real life issues get in the way, for this TLMC, I am dealing with a divorce, a death, moving houses, and an unstable job period, I did not have the time to invest into judging like I did in TLMC12. That's just my factor, and now imagine what or if Kantuva had factors that affected his ability to judge as well. TLMCs are not perfect and we never claim them to be, but we can try our hardest to make what we can out of what is given. If you want my personal philosophy, I'm usually not going to change my mind on a map that's been resubmitted 4 times with minor or no changes. There were a few maps that were submitted this time around that did not make the Top 16, and some didn't even make the first pass that I thought were pretty decent. I would likely vote for them the same if they were just resubmitted to fill the 6/6 slots available for TLMC14. So, all of my maps didn't get into the finalists, that's fine...I get it... but the thing that really drives me crazy is when I look at how often my maps were "downloaded" by the judges (The platform I give my .sc2map files showcase me anytime the map gets downloaded) and 3 outta 6 of my maps didn't get downloaded (the overview got viewed by the looks of it from tl.net TLMC thread!) That's okay, all my overviews got viewed by AT LEAST ONE judge out of the... five? six? (according to the download site + TL.net) Then I hear balance complaint after balance complaint... ...At that point,it didn't even get downloaded from the judges of TLMC #13 once and at the end of the day, the overview only got one download... ONE DOWNLOAD from a map that all judges were impressed with the previous TLMC... This map that won a Korean map tournament and I changed the layout according to feedback from all the judges and yet now... not a single TLMC #13 download? I already addressed this part to you in Discord, but to post publically - it's extremely common for us to download one copy and then by the time the other judges come around, we have our own link (perhaps the link broke itself, or we needed to reupload, who knows what issue comes up) and we use that instead. Relying on DL numbers is not recommended here. Also, I know for a fact each map gets downloaded at least twice, so I wouldn't trust your websites anyway, no matter what they want to say to you. Regarding some of your finalist criticisms now; Just because they're top 16, as you said yourself.. doesn't meant they're always Top Tier maps. The top 16 is decided in a pretty specific way, and sometimes we just don't have the best pool ever possible, and this has always been the case. We also sometimes, due to criticisms you make even here, might not include a map that was rated equal to another, in order to create a much more varied pool that the playerbase, and you mapmakers, will enjoy. Specific arguments made, such as Earthrise vs Eternal Empire seem pretty out there, and almost surface level criticisms that mapmakers often, privately, mock at players for doing themselves. They're both S shaped maps, sure, but it's pretty clear how different army movements will play out with multiple regions of the map, such as the triangle third (Earthrise has a path that arms out in a bend, Empire has a ramp directly infront of it), the middle of the map is completely different and serves a different purpose, the vertical fourths hold different risks and rewards, the corner bases as well. They are different takes on the same concept, sure, and also by the same author, whom also made Cloud Kingdom originally anyway, but these are the things that we look at. We look at execution, and when you have ideas that are refined, with new, even small spins, and if players like it? They're probably gunna pass highly. The mapmaker judges did something slightly different this time around when it comes to helping players have less work loaded onto them for their time constraints, and we would argue this Top 16 is pretty favorable for everyone, even if you as a mapmaker can nitpick the living fuck out of every single thing, for whatever reason you may choose. Again, I will close - we are happy with the Top 16, but remember that these results do come from you mapmakers, I personally did not find the majority of maps in our low submission count to be that fantastic or interesting, many had some pretty open flaws that would've prompted comment threads like Sidians, and perhaps in even greater rage. Granted, this was a surprise TLMC with little time from the one before, so I can't say I expected *too* much, but, what can you do. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq13975 Posts
I understand that theoretically a 'judge's pick' can be used on a non-standard map, but they haven't been in the past, and I'm unsure about how likely they are to be used in the future. Non-standard maps are almost by definition more controversial than standard maps, which seems to work against them in the TLMC. We've had a number of finalists (for instance Simulacrum) that do very little wrong by virtue of not doing anything non-standard (or interesting) whatsoever. Do I think that a map like 'Cattail' is better than 'Simulacrum' or 'Golden Forge'? Probably not. But personally I'd still much rather see it in the top 16 in the interest of diversity than the seventh or eight best standard/macro map. I understand that the judges may disagree about this sentiment, so to circle back to my initial question: "Is it a waste of time/effort to submit non-standard maps in the non-challenge categories?" | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2206 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iy25ODa.jpg) If you want me to go into more details on the other maps I can... But to sit here and say every map is unique and different and that's why they won is complete and utter bullshit. I get it. TLMC is hard to judge and looking at new maps and picking winners and losers is really tough. But when I, someone who only saw the maps less than 1 day looks at these maps and goes... wow, these are the same god damn maps when you judges had... weeks(?) to narrow it down? Honestly... it's pretty damn pathetic. Seriously...? Go ahead? Tell me these maps are not similar or will play out the completely different? The dude who spent 15 minutes looking at the finalists compared to the judges who apparently spent over a week... | ||
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KillerSmile
16 Posts
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