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Well leaving Serral out of the discussion, to rank Soo as number 1 after a single tournament result is kinda silly. Specially considered that it was far from a flawless win. If Uthermal would have won against Dear in the groupstage, Soo would have been knocked out, and then he would not even have made the list.
I think the truth is that it is unclear how is the best Korean player at the moment. To me it seems to stand between Stats, TY, Maru and Rogue. Think you could make an argument for anyone of them but reality is that there is no clear nr1 player in Korea as off now.
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On March 11 2019 05:23 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
but I would end Maru's [global dominance] after GSL vs the World in retrospective.
uhm... why? He won vs a great looking soO and a Zest-smashing Showtime before losing to Stats. He then went on to win GSL by beating Gumiho, Zest and TY one month later. One slip up isn't the end of dominance. To argue for Maru not being as dominant as before anymore because of that single loss is totally contradicting your argument for consistency you're vehemently applying for Serral in this thread. Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do.
Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world.
Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other.
You make it sound like "international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other" are actually harder than GSL (I'm sorry if I'm reading too much into this). That's just not the case based on individual skill of players who are competing in those tournaments. IEM is the only exception now. But GSL vs The World and Blizzcon do have the flaw of inflating the player pool of not super great players by letting qualify 8 foreigners. All international tournaments since the beginning of 2018 proved that no matter how high the amount of great foreigners - Koreans will still dominate the upper rounds of any tournament with very rare exceptions. Serral was the only exception who was able to make this feat a regular thing. I still think that GSLs (and IEMs like we had right now) are theoretically the toughest tournaments there are, but the amount of great players at Blizzcon/GSL vs The World and the likes is still high enough that I'm valuing them as equal because in most cases the individual tournament path of any player doesn't differ very much in difficulty - especially in higher rounds. Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region.
GSL still was an international event theoretically in 2018. There were foreigners competing in it - Neeb was quite impressive in doing so. So it's not that their was any restriction from competing in GSL. I don't say it's Serrals fault to not compete in GSL but you're now kind of doing what you're accusing me of: dismissing Maru's GSL victories because they weren't inernational events (which isn't the case). Blizzcon is not the biggest event in terms of toughness, nor is winning international tournaments more valuable than winning GSLs.
"In retrospective" is the key here, had it happened last week I'd have said we couldn't assume Maru's domination was ended or about to end.
Now that 2018 is over, we know Maru wouldn't have won another international tournament starting from GSL vs the World, so I find it unfitting to think he was still globally dominant after that; he went on to win his third Code S so we can surely consider him to be still be dominant in Korea.
I am not saying international tournaments are harder than Code S, even if you have to ask yourself if top foreigners are indeed worse than ro32 koreans; it heavily depends on the format of the said tournaments tho, some of those are arguably more prestigious and surely have much bigger prizes which may result in a sharper motivation.
I am surely not disregarding Maru's achievements, I am just not convinced Code S was so much ahead of WCS in 2018 as you guys think to the point that Serral's 4 WCS wins actually had a weight, leading Serral to be more successful than Maru throughout the whole year.
Code S is not a locked tournament but since it takes place in Korea during the span of three months there are factual limitations for foreigners; some of them may want to live in Korea for a while but you cannot expect everyone to do so.
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Bisutopia19384 Posts
On March 11 2019 02:25 Charoisaur wrote:
To people laughing about soO losing in GSL after getting #1 in the PR - it's really convenient when the player you want to see at #1 doesn't compete in GSL and thus doesn't have an opportunity to fail isn't it?
soO dropping out definitely shouldn't count in favor of Serral when he doesn't even compete in the GSL.
This is again like arguing he was the best player in 2018 because he lost the least matches...
So here's my question. Would you have said soO was the best player in his GSL group prior to the group being played? Because if he wasn't the best in his group of 3 opponents how can he be power ranked as number 1 above all players, not just those three?
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On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 01:41 fronkschnonk wrote:
There is a big difference to 2018's lists: none of these lists had to deal with such a big timeframe without tournaments to refer to. To justify that the results of more than 3 months ago are still that impactful they had to give the consistency-factor more relevance.
You're applying for giving consistency even more credit. That's ok. But I think it's unfair to accuse the writers of not living up to their criteria.
Interestingly the consistency issue could be a main point in the serral/maru-dicussion, too. I'd rather not take Serral's two WCS wins before GSL vs The World in account for his period of dominance, beause those victories are no proof of him being able to dominate on highest level. You'd rather extend Serral's period of dominance to those victories because you think that the consistency shown by Serral makes it probable, that he already was as good when he won WCS Valencia and WCS Austin.
Is that correct or am I misinterpretating? Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight. You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective. The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do. Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world. Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other. Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region. When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is?
I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first.
I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament.
You just can't say "See, Serral should've been first" because we don't know if he would've done better than soO.
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On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 01:41 fronkschnonk wrote:
There is a big difference to 2018's lists: none of these lists had to deal with such a big timeframe without tournaments to refer to. To justify that the results of more than 3 months ago are still that impactful they had to give the consistency-factor more relevance.
You're applying for giving consistency even more credit. That's ok. But I think it's unfair to accuse the writers of not living up to their criteria.
Interestingly the consistency issue could be a main point in the serral/maru-dicussion, too. I'd rather not take Serral's two WCS wins before GSL vs The World in account for his period of dominance, beause those victories are no proof of him being able to dominate on highest level. You'd rather extend Serral's period of dominance to those victories because you think that the consistency shown by Serral makes it probable, that he already was as good when he won WCS Valencia and WCS Austin.
Is that correct or am I misinterpretating? Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight. You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective. The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do. Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world. Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other. Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region. When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament.
That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread.
soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory.
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On March 11 2019 06:30 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 05:23 fronkschnonk wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
but I would end Maru's [global dominance] after GSL vs the World in retrospective.
uhm... why? He won vs a great looking soO and a Zest-smashing Showtime before losing to Stats. He then went on to win GSL by beating Gumiho, Zest and TY one month later. One slip up isn't the end of dominance. To argue for Maru not being as dominant as before anymore because of that single loss is totally contradicting your argument for consistency you're vehemently applying for Serral in this thread. On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do.
Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world.
Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other.
You make it sound like "international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other" are actually harder than GSL (I'm sorry if I'm reading too much into this). That's just not the case based on individual skill of players who are competing in those tournaments. IEM is the only exception now. But GSL vs The World and Blizzcon do have the flaw of inflating the player pool of not super great players by letting qualify 8 foreigners. All international tournaments since the beginning of 2018 proved that no matter how high the amount of great foreigners - Koreans will still dominate the upper rounds of any tournament with very rare exceptions. Serral was the only exception who was able to make this feat a regular thing. I still think that GSLs (and IEMs like we had right now) are theoretically the toughest tournaments there are, but the amount of great players at Blizzcon/GSL vs The World and the likes is still high enough that I'm valuing them as equal because in most cases the individual tournament path of any player doesn't differ very much in difficulty - especially in higher rounds. On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region.
GSL still was an international event theoretically in 2018. There were foreigners competing in it - Neeb was quite impressive in doing so. So it's not that their was any restriction from competing in GSL. I don't say it's Serrals fault to not compete in GSL but you're now kind of doing what you're accusing me of: dismissing Maru's GSL victories because they weren't inernational events (which isn't the case). Blizzcon is not the biggest event in terms of toughness, nor is winning international tournaments more valuable than winning GSLs. "In retrospective" is the key here, had it happened last week I'd have said we couldn't assume Maru's domination was ended or about to end. Now that 2018 is over, we know Maru wouldn't have won another international tournament starting from GSL vs the World, so I find it unfitting to think he was still globally dominant after that; he went on to win his third Code S so we can surely consider him to be still be dominant in Korea. I am not saying international tournaments are harder than Code S, even if you have to ask yourself if top foreigners are indeed worse than ro32 koreans; it heavily depends on the format of the said tournaments tho, some of those are arguably more prestigious and surely have much bigger prizes which may result in a sharper motivation. I am surely not disregarding Maru's achievements, I am just not convinced Code S was so much ahead of WCS in 2018 as you guys think to the point that Serral's 4 WCS wins actually had a weight, leading Serral to be more successful than Maru throughout the whole year. Code S is not a locked tournament but since it takes place in Korea during the span of three months there are factual limitations for foreigners; some of them may want to live in Korea for a while but you cannot expect everyone to do so.
Also in retrospective, I don't see your point. Winning a tournament vs the toughest player pool (= all of the top Koreans) after having done so 2 times in a row before can't be called not being globally dominant just because he lost one match in between.
With that I'm not saying that Serral was worse than Maru at that point in time. We obviously don't know. I'm saying that we had two players in 2018 who had equally dominant periods of time which were overlapping with Maru's beginning earlier and Serral's ending later.
For the question wether Code S or other international events were "so much ahead of WCS in 2018":
Let's look at the tournaments were both foreigners and Korean participated with the same chances of qualifying for those events:
IEM Katowice in 2018:
- Top 12 only one foreigner.
- Top foreigners like Showtime, Special, Neeb, Elazer, uThermal didn't make it past the group stage.
Homestory Cup XVII
- Top 8 only 2 foreigners
- Lambo made it there on the back of winning vs foreigners (Heromarine and a ZvZ vs Stephano); he didn't win a match vs a Korean in the playoffs
GSL vs The World
- Top 8 only 3 foreigners.
- Special made it to the Ro8 by beating Has.
Blizzcon
- Top 8 only 2 foreigners
- Top foreigners like Showtime and Neeb didn't make it past the group stage.
Homestory Cup XVIII
- Top 8 only 3 foreigners
IEM Katowice in 2019:
- Top 12 only 2 foreigners
The more top Koreans participate in an event the more unlikely it is for an foreigner to make it to the higher rounds. In fact: except Serral barely any foreigner made it past Ro8 (At Homestory Cup only by winning vs foreigners; Showtime being the only one except Serral at GSL vs The World).
Thus we normally only have 2 players at WCS tournaments that are capable of being Ro8-material at Tournaments with top Koreans. That being said, Blizzcon and GSL vs The World are probably not accurate representations because the player field is limited. Also HSCs are quite random so they usually don't have all the best Koreans participating. The best picture is shown by the IEMs because there isn't any locked regional qualifier or invite stuff involved.
Conclusion:
Any WCS tournament lacks a minimum of 6 players (and a maximum of 10 players, if one only referred to IEMs) who would be serious contenders for making it to the finals while GSL potentially lacks 2 players who would be serious contenders for making it to the Ro8, and one of them perhaps making it to Ro4 (Neeb did it once) or even to the finals (2018 Serral of course).
So yeah, this means that winning a WCS tournament basically puts you in a Ro8 of GSL (from there anything can happen of course).
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On March 11 2019 08:42 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 06:30 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:23 fronkschnonk wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
but I would end Maru's [global dominance] after GSL vs the World in retrospective.
uhm... why? He won vs a great looking soO and a Zest-smashing Showtime before losing to Stats. He then went on to win GSL by beating Gumiho, Zest and TY one month later. One slip up isn't the end of dominance. To argue for Maru not being as dominant as before anymore because of that single loss is totally contradicting your argument for consistency you're vehemently applying for Serral in this thread. On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do.
Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world.
Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other.
You make it sound like "international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other" are actually harder than GSL (I'm sorry if I'm reading too much into this). That's just not the case based on individual skill of players who are competing in those tournaments. IEM is the only exception now. But GSL vs The World and Blizzcon do have the flaw of inflating the player pool of not super great players by letting qualify 8 foreigners. All international tournaments since the beginning of 2018 proved that no matter how high the amount of great foreigners - Koreans will still dominate the upper rounds of any tournament with very rare exceptions. Serral was the only exception who was able to make this feat a regular thing. I still think that GSLs (and IEMs like we had right now) are theoretically the toughest tournaments there are, but the amount of great players at Blizzcon/GSL vs The World and the likes is still high enough that I'm valuing them as equal because in most cases the individual tournament path of any player doesn't differ very much in difficulty - especially in higher rounds. On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region.
GSL still was an international event theoretically in 2018. There were foreigners competing in it - Neeb was quite impressive in doing so. So it's not that their was any restriction from competing in GSL. I don't say it's Serrals fault to not compete in GSL but you're now kind of doing what you're accusing me of: dismissing Maru's GSL victories because they weren't inernational events (which isn't the case). Blizzcon is not the biggest event in terms of toughness, nor is winning international tournaments more valuable than winning GSLs. "In retrospective" is the key here, had it happened last week I'd have said we couldn't assume Maru's domination was ended or about to end. Now that 2018 is over, we know Maru wouldn't have won another international tournament starting from GSL vs the World, so I find it unfitting to think he was still globally dominant after that; he went on to win his third Code S so we can surely consider him to be still be dominant in Korea. I am not saying international tournaments are harder than Code S, even if you have to ask yourself if top foreigners are indeed worse than ro32 koreans; it heavily depends on the format of the said tournaments tho, some of those are arguably more prestigious and surely have much bigger prizes which may result in a sharper motivation. I am surely not disregarding Maru's achievements, I am just not convinced Code S was so much ahead of WCS in 2018 as you guys think to the point that Serral's 4 WCS wins actually had a weight, leading Serral to be more successful than Maru throughout the whole year. Code S is not a locked tournament but since it takes place in Korea during the span of three months there are factual limitations for foreigners; some of them may want to live in Korea for a while but you cannot expect everyone to do so. Also in retrospective, I don't see your point. Winning a tournament vs the toughest player pool (= all of the top Koreans) after having done so 2 times in a row before can't be called not being globally dominant just because he lost one match in between. With that I'm not saying that Serral was worse than Maru at that point in time. We obviously don't know. I'm saying that we had two players in 2018 who had equally dominant periods of time which were overlapping with Maru's beginning earlier and Serral's ending later. For the question wether Code S or other international events were "so much ahead of WCS in 2018": Let's look at the tournaments were both foreigners and Korean participated with the same chances of qualifying for those events: IEM Katowice in 2018: - Top 12 only one foreigner. - Top foreigners like Showtime, Special, Neeb, Elazer, uThermal didn't make it past the group stage. Homestory Cup XVII- Top 8 only 2 foreigners - Lambo made it there on the back of winning vs foreigners (Heromarine and a ZvZ vs Stephano); he didn't win a match vs a Korean in the playoffs GSL vs The World- Top 8 only 3 foreigners. - Special made it to the Ro8 by beating Has. Blizzcon- Top 8 only 2 foreigners - Top foreigners like Showtime and Neeb didn't make it past the group stage. Homestory Cup XVIII- Top 8 only 3 foreigners IEM Katowice in 2019: - Top 12 only 2 foreigners The more top Koreans participate in an event the more unlikely it is for an foreigner to make it to the higher rounds. In fact: except Serral barely any foreigner made it past Ro8 (At Homestory Cup only by winning vs foreigners; Showtime being the only one except Serral at GSL vs The World). Thus we normally only have 2 players at WCS tournaments that are capable of being Ro8-material at Tournaments with top Koreans. That being said, Blizzcon and GSL vs The World are probably not accurate representations because the player field is limited. Also HSCs are quite random so they usually don't have all the best Koreans participating. The best picture is shown by the IEMs because there isn't any locked regional qualifier or invite stuff involved. Conclusion: Any WCS tournament lacks a minimum of 6 players (and a maximum of 10 players, if one only referred to IEMs) who would be serious contenders for making it to the finals while GSL potentially lacks 2 players who would be serious contenders for making it to the Ro8, and one of them perhaps making it to Ro4 (Neeb did it once) or even to the finals (2018 Serral of course). So yeah, this means that winning a WCS tournament basically puts you in a Ro8 of GSL (from there anything can happen of course).
The point is there can be either one or no players(in the case there is no one who is evidently way ahead of his competitors) globally dominating, whereas there can be two players dominating regionally(one in Korea, one in WCS); GSL, despite being open to everyone and having some foreigners trying to qualify , is essentially a korean tournament, while you are treating it as international.
The existence of Serral also implies there is a strong contender not competing for the Code S title, unlike what happened in the past when the best 16 players in the world were all korean.
By your estimates, one WCS would be roughly worth 1/4 of Code S?
That's almost reasonable and way more than the majority of "korean elitists" are ready to admit(see Charoisaur above not believing Serral would have made ro8 on a regular basis).
Even equating a WCS winner to a Code S ro8 player does not mean every top 8 korean would have won four consecutive WCS, just that there is a chanche they might have done it; such a feat takes a huge consistency as they were played in the span of ten months during different patches.
Serral never played a preparation tournament(WCS Winter is probably the closest format) while Maru was godly at them during 2018; on the other hand, Serral's performance during "weekenders" was outstanding while Maru's was someway poor as he only won one out of six.
It's quite hard to properly compare Serral and Maru as they don't play in the same circuit and never faced in official matches while they both were at their apex; however, numbers like earnings, win percentage, average placement in lost tournaments, streak and Premier victories are all on Serral's side and I don't believe the higher average quality of Maru's victory can make up for them, especially considering he lost more tournaments than he won and ended the year crashing out of BlizzCon early and brutally.
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wow, I heard Serral got beaten by Neeb, is that true?
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Yeah they were really short games though. Neeb always had great PvZ but his PvP holds him back too much.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 01:41 fronkschnonk wrote:
There is a big difference to 2018's lists: none of these lists had to deal with such a big timeframe without tournaments to refer to. To justify that the results of more than 3 months ago are still that impactful they had to give the consistency-factor more relevance.
You're applying for giving consistency even more credit. That's ok. But I think it's unfair to accuse the writers of not living up to their criteria.
Interestingly the consistency issue could be a main point in the serral/maru-dicussion, too. I'd rather not take Serral's two WCS wins before GSL vs The World in account for his period of dominance, beause those victories are no proof of him being able to dominate on highest level. You'd rather extend Serral's period of dominance to those victories because you think that the consistency shown by Serral makes it probable, that he already was as good when he won WCS Valencia and WCS Austin.
Is that correct or am I misinterpretating? Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight. You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective. The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do. Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world. Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other. Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region. When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory.
And how does the loss of this #1 player Serral to a foreigner named Neeb? The bestest everest, 3 losses in a row. I don't know Kev 
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On March 11 2019 17:14 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 01:41 fronkschnonk wrote:
There is a big difference to 2018's lists: none of these lists had to deal with such a big timeframe without tournaments to refer to. To justify that the results of more than 3 months ago are still that impactful they had to give the consistency-factor more relevance.
You're applying for giving consistency even more credit. That's ok. But I think it's unfair to accuse the writers of not living up to their criteria.
Interestingly the consistency issue could be a main point in the serral/maru-dicussion, too. I'd rather not take Serral's two WCS wins before GSL vs The World in account for his period of dominance, beause those victories are no proof of him being able to dominate on highest level. You'd rather extend Serral's period of dominance to those victories because you think that the consistency shown by Serral makes it probable, that he already was as good when he won WCS Valencia and WCS Austin.
Is that correct or am I misinterpretating? Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight. You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective. The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do. Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world. Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other. Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region. When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory. And how does the loss of this #1 player Serral to a foreigner named Neeb? The bestest everest, 3 losses in a row. I don't know Kev
the same way "this #1 player" Maru lost to a foreigner named Neeb in IEM 2019
Neeb is a Kespa cup winner and the first foreigner to win a premier tournament on Korean soil....not your typical foreigner
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On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 01:41 fronkschnonk wrote:
There is a big difference to 2018's lists: none of these lists had to deal with such a big timeframe without tournaments to refer to. To justify that the results of more than 3 months ago are still that impactful they had to give the consistency-factor more relevance.
You're applying for giving consistency even more credit. That's ok. But I think it's unfair to accuse the writers of not living up to their criteria.
Interestingly the consistency issue could be a main point in the serral/maru-dicussion, too. I'd rather not take Serral's two WCS wins before GSL vs The World in account for his period of dominance, beause those victories are no proof of him being able to dominate on highest level. You'd rather extend Serral's period of dominance to those victories because you think that the consistency shown by Serral makes it probable, that he already was as good when he won WCS Valencia and WCS Austin.
Is that correct or am I misinterpretating? Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight. You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective. The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do. Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world. Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other. Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region. When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory.
Which korean should be placed above soO though? Stats dropped out in the ro32 and no other korean has really looked exceptionally strong.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On March 11 2019 17:42 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 17:14 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 01:41 fronkschnonk wrote:
There is a big difference to 2018's lists: none of these lists had to deal with such a big timeframe without tournaments to refer to. To justify that the results of more than 3 months ago are still that impactful they had to give the consistency-factor more relevance.
You're applying for giving consistency even more credit. That's ok. But I think it's unfair to accuse the writers of not living up to their criteria.
Interestingly the consistency issue could be a main point in the serral/maru-dicussion, too. I'd rather not take Serral's two WCS wins before GSL vs The World in account for his period of dominance, beause those victories are no proof of him being able to dominate on highest level. You'd rather extend Serral's period of dominance to those victories because you think that the consistency shown by Serral makes it probable, that he already was as good when he won WCS Valencia and WCS Austin.
Is that correct or am I misinterpretating? Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight. You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective. The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do. Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world. Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other. Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region. When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory. And how does the loss of this #1 player Serral to a foreigner named Neeb? The bestest everest, 3 losses in a row. I don't know Kev the same way "this #1 player" Maru lost to a foreigner named Neeb in IEM 2019 Neeb is a Kespa cup winner and the first foreigner to win a premier tournament on Korean soil....not your typical foreigner
Why do you get Maru in this? Nobody is saying Maru should be #1, but there's plenty of people who claim this PR is wrong and Serral should be #1... so, yeah
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On March 11 2019 17:43 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 01:41 fronkschnonk wrote:
There is a big difference to 2018's lists: none of these lists had to deal with such a big timeframe without tournaments to refer to. To justify that the results of more than 3 months ago are still that impactful they had to give the consistency-factor more relevance.
You're applying for giving consistency even more credit. That's ok. But I think it's unfair to accuse the writers of not living up to their criteria.
Interestingly the consistency issue could be a main point in the serral/maru-dicussion, too. I'd rather not take Serral's two WCS wins before GSL vs The World in account for his period of dominance, beause those victories are no proof of him being able to dominate on highest level. You'd rather extend Serral's period of dominance to those victories because you think that the consistency shown by Serral makes it probable, that he already was as good when he won WCS Valencia and WCS Austin.
Is that correct or am I misinterpretating? Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight. You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective. The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do. Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world. Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other. Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region. When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory. Which korean should be placed above soO though? Stats dropped out in the ro32 and no other korean has really looked exceptionally strong.
No one, most likely Serral whose position towards the fields remained strong; still, it would have been a guess just as much as placing soO as first.
I'll say once more that it would have been better to make a power ranking either before IEM(no doubts Serral would have been #1) or at the end of March when we will have a much clearer idea of who are the current best players.
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On March 11 2019 18:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 17:42 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 17:14 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 03:19 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Had they not written anything about updating their criteria, it would have been fine but since they did I feel they did not entirely achieved this new goal by giving a IEM too much weight.
You surely aren't misinterpretating, I suspect Serral was already good when he won those WCS titles but the truth is that we will never know; personally, I wouldn't extend Serral's global dominance to these titles(I'd include December, tho) but I would end Maru's after GSL vs the World in retrospective.
The fact that Serral doesn't live in Korea and is not korean means that he is not implied to play in Code S; he plays in WCS as you would expect a finnish player to do.
Not playing in Code S doesn't magically make you inferior to every GSL player like many seem to think, it is NOT a prerequisite for a certain threshold of skill or for being the best player in the world.
Sure, Code S is the hardest and most prestigious regional tournament in sc2; fortunately there are international tournaments where the players from every region can face each other.
Serral was the best player in 2018 because he added the best overall results in international tournaments including winning the biggest and historically more relevant one(BlizzCon) to the utter domination of his own region.
When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify. If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game. No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory. And how does the loss of this #1 player Serral to a foreigner named Neeb? The bestest everest, 3 losses in a row. I don't know Kev the same way "this #1 player" Maru lost to a foreigner named Neeb in IEM 2019 Neeb is a Kespa cup winner and the first foreigner to win a premier tournament on Korean soil....not your typical foreigner Why do you get Maru in this? Nobody is saying Maru should be #1, but there's plenty of people who claim this PR is wrong and Serral should be #1... so, yeah
youre right that nobody is arguing that Maru should be #1 in this specific power rankings. But, when Neeb beat Maru, people were arguing that Maru was, at that time, the best player on the planet (similar to how people are saying serral is currently the best player on the planet)
All I'm saying is that losing to Neeb isnt some death sentence to being deemed #1. Neeb is inconsistent and his PvP is weak as hell, but if neeb is playing well he can beat literally anyone and losing to him in a group stage isnt that damning imo.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On March 11 2019 18:20 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 18:11 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 17:42 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 17:14 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 04:49 deacon.frost wrote:
[quote]
When you say "dont use GSL against Serral" then say - don't use GSL against any other top Korean. Because, and let's face it, the more you play other top Koreans, the bigger chance to lose. It's really unfair to use GSL against soO while Serral haven't done anything particulary amazing this year. soO had a group of death, he lost, boohoo. Serral didn't even qualify.
If you wanna use Code S against soO we will use Code S against Serral, that's the game.
No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me. soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse. so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory. And how does the loss of this #1 player Serral to a foreigner named Neeb? The bestest everest, 3 losses in a row. I don't know Kev the same way "this #1 player" Maru lost to a foreigner named Neeb in IEM 2019 Neeb is a Kespa cup winner and the first foreigner to win a premier tournament on Korean soil....not your typical foreigner Why do you get Maru in this? Nobody is saying Maru should be #1, but there's plenty of people who claim this PR is wrong and Serral should be #1... so, yeah youre right that nobody is arguing that Maru should be #1 in this specific power rankings. But, when Neeb beat Maru, people were arguing that Maru was, at that time, the best player on the planet (similar to how people are saying serral is currently the best player on the planet) All I'm saying is that losing to Neeb isnt some death sentence to being deemed #1. Neeb is inconsistent and his PvP is weak as hell, but if neeb is playing well he can beat literally anyone and losing to him in a group stage isnt that damning imo.
So Serral losing to soO, Innovation and Neeb is fine(Serral just lost in every matchup, so it's not like he had some weakness) and he should be #1 while because soO lost in group of Death means the PR is wrong? Do I get this correctly? I just want to be sure you know what I am writing about...
BTW you wrote Maru losing to Neeb 2019... which wasn't when Maru was the best player of the world for sure.
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On March 11 2019 18:26 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 18:20 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 18:11 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 17:42 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 17:14 deacon.frost wrote:On March 11 2019 07:26 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 06:05 Xain0n wrote:On March 11 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote:On March 11 2019 05:15 Xain0n wrote:
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No, that's nonsense; you could use code S against Serral if he was korean or playing in Korea. He plays in WCS as his nationality would suggest; the reasoning for which not playing in a tournament you are not expected to is worse than not doing well when playing it seems terribly flawed, to me.
soO's placement in this power ranking was acceptable but his loss in his ro16 group seems to strenghten the claim that considering him the best of the world at the moment was a it someway rushed decision, maybe dictated by the sensation generated by him breaking the Kong's curse.
so because he doesn't compete in GSL we just act like he'd win every game if he'd play in the GSL? We have no idea how Serral would do in the GSL, maybe he'd drop out in the ro16 as well. By saying soO doesn't deserve to be ranked before Serral because he lost in the ro16 you basically say that Serral would get to the ro8 by default if he'd play in the GSL which is nonsense. By the way, didn't you say Serral was probably still the best player in the world after IEM? Now you are firmly convinced soO is? I still think Serral is probably the best player in the world with soO also being a reasonable choice for first. I just don't think the GSL group changed anything about the soO-Serral relationship because Serral doesn't play in the tournament. That's actually not much different from what I originally posted in this thread. soO's early exit has obviously nothing to do with Serral but this one is not a list involving two people, it's a global power ranking; such a loss weakens soO's position considering the whole field. Again, I don't think it was a wrong decision to place soO as #1, just a rushed one in the wake of his sensational victory. And how does the loss of this #1 player Serral to a foreigner named Neeb? The bestest everest, 3 losses in a row. I don't know Kev the same way "this #1 player" Maru lost to a foreigner named Neeb in IEM 2019 Neeb is a Kespa cup winner and the first foreigner to win a premier tournament on Korean soil....not your typical foreigner Why do you get Maru in this? Nobody is saying Maru should be #1, but there's plenty of people who claim this PR is wrong and Serral should be #1... so, yeah youre right that nobody is arguing that Maru should be #1 in this specific power rankings. But, when Neeb beat Maru, people were arguing that Maru was, at that time, the best player on the planet (similar to how people are saying serral is currently the best player on the planet) All I'm saying is that losing to Neeb isnt some death sentence to being deemed #1. Neeb is inconsistent and his PvP is weak as hell, but if neeb is playing well he can beat literally anyone and losing to him in a group stage isnt that damning imo. So Serral losing to soO, Innovation and Neeb is fine(Serral just lost in every matchup, so it's not like he had some weakness) and he should be #1 while because soO lost in group of Death means the PR is wrong? Do I get this correctly? I just want to be sure you know what I am writing about... BTW you wrote Maru losing to Neeb 2019... which wasn't when Maru was the best player of the world for sure.
If you want to play that game, you could say that soO lost to Bunny, Dear, and TY, who make up a weaker group than soO, Innovation, and Neeb, ie, soO lost to weaker players than Serral did
I didnt say the PR is "wrong" - it's a highly subjective matter in the first place.
My point is that saying Serral has no case for #1 because he lost to Neeb makes zero sense. A #1 can lose to Neeb, just like soO lost to bunny
I honestly dont think soO is better than Serral. soO outplayed serral that series, but overall Serral is better imo.
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Here's a solution for the Serral fanboys: if you really deperately need a PR where Serral is #1, make one with region lock, like WCS. And then silence everyone that says that Neeb is on a winning streak against Serral...
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I think the mistake is failing to realize that TL.net is just trolling all of the Serral fanboys. Does anyone actually think that Soo performed better over the last 12 months than Zest, Dark, Rogue, TY, Maru or Serral??? No, of course not! lmfao!!! so stop being so sensitive about it and just laugh at one of the best troll posts in awhile like the rest of us 
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Maru should still be top 3 easily. Funny that Rogue, Inno, Zest arent on the list, i agree with it tho.
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EPT
