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Ej_
47656 Posts
On February 12 2019 10:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: On one hand the 'rush' category produced no good maps Dreamcatcher! I agree all the others were subpar tho But it feels wrong that there's no way to submit a map that doesn't have easy 5 bases... | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
And for TLMC12, most of the standard and macro maps have a very similar structure of the five first bases (+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/205545782814834688/545620355692232704/clone_factory.png) Even the challenge maps have that same map structure. All of these are standard/macro maps that have the challenge features slapped on them. If you removed the challenge features out of them, some could even become finalists of the regular categories. There are only two maps that completely break if the challenge features are removed: - Loss Aversion: the natural choke would become far too wide. - Neo-Tokyo Turbo Cruise '84: The rush distance would be far below the acceptable threshold. The challenge categories are supposed to be more experimental but in the end, they are quite standard. To my eyes, this is a failure for the challenge categories and what it brings isn't worth the removal of the New category. At least in the New category, the judges seem naturally inclined to slightly reduce their balance tolerance for innovative maps. It is really that bad to have one or two maps where we take the risk of having a 55-60% imbalance for unique maps? There is one another big thing for the come back of the New category. The challenge categories bring new mechanics on the table. They are release just before or at the start of a TLMC. These are features that we don't know how players truly interact with them. We have one month to make maps with them, we barely have any play testing to adapt our maps and we end up making average maps that end up finalists. Some of these get into the ladder and we can see hundreds on stream with these maps. We will see many players interact with Inhibitor Zone Generations in the next months and some of us may have an epiphany on how to use an IZG in an excellent way. Guess what, it will never get through standard/macro categories because it's not standard enough and the challenge categories will have a different theme. If he has to wait for the next time an IZG category is announced, it will take so many years and the meta may change that will make his map worse. This is why judges should allow more experimentation in challenge categories and we should bring back the New category. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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themusic246
United States213 Posts
On February 17 2019 01:26 Superouman wrote: We will see many players interact with Inhibitor Zone Generations in the next months and some of us may have an epiphany on how to use an IZG in an excellent way. Guess what, it will never get through standard/macro categories because it's not standard enough and the challenge categories will have a different theme. If he has to wait for the next time an IZG category is announced, it will take so many years and the meta may change that will make his map worse. This is why judges should allow more experimentation in challenge categories and we should bring back the New category. Hard to argue with that. A "New" category that collectively has rmt's, izg's, adjustable minerals, "rush" maps, and whatever other new toys blizz puts in galaxy would give map makers less restriction and more than a few weeks to play with special features from previous tlmc's. Sounds hot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | ||
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Avexyli
United States703 Posts
There's also some issues with how maps are picked too in judging that I was yelling at Kantuva about for a solid hour that really annoyed me and prevented maps with more unique usage of the features from being in the finalists. | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
Standard boring maps are fine, since you can just play some standard starcraft 2 on them, but it is fun to have unusual maps, especially as a viewer. It just makes the tournaments way better when you have like 2 maps that are unique. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1913 Posts
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Zweck
Germany211 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
So here's my updated impressions about the maps. Bandwidth: No change. Operation Lockdown: I'm still a bit unsure about this, since we didn't get to see any lategame, but I'm more confident that the middle four bases won't get taken. Attacks on the linear third are a bit problematic since the surround distance is so long. Triton: Protosses repeatedly messed up walling off on this map is definitely a problem, but apart from that this map was decent. The middle played pretty well. Definitely more of a macro map than a standard map (the comparisons to Para Site are obvious), but if Eastwatch can count as a standard map, so can anything. The way all the finalists trend rather macro is more of a systemic problem than just an issue with Triton though. Ephemeron: Ephemeron had several quite good games, and certainly stood out due to its layout being different from all the other maps. The bridges were gameplay relevant, and army movements around the center were more compelling than I'd anticipated. The split-map 'problem' is real I think, but it's no Backwater either. Disco Bloodbath: The top right and bottom left corner of the map which I criticized earlier might as well not have existed during all the games. The middle of the map was also essentially never used. Map was generally not great. Acropolis: Wardi compared the map to Ascension to Aiur, and it is basically that except with a much safer third. Even the fourths played very safe. Some of the PvZs were quite good, but this is another map that feels too macro focused to be balanced. Black Baroque: The exposed-ish main is more of a reasonable weakness than I expected, and the slightly elongated choke leading to between the natural and third did allow for some attacking. So the map is less overly macro focused than I thought, though it's still a bit too defensive for my taste. I do also have to give the map some credit for featuring the best game of the tournament (Impact vs Zest). Heatwave: The games were generally pretty good on this map. Thunderbird: This map heavily disappointed (though my evaluation of it initially was pretty off base). Part of it can be attributed to the players (the minerals in the middle were not taken down in most of the games, and it feels like it should have been correct for at least one of the players to mine the central path), but it's also due to the layout being very turtly. The double mineral walls to the expos were mined out to expand by soO and Impact in some games, but there just weren't any offensive opportunities from the mineral wall side which meant a free three bases (when players didn't unaccountably expand vertically). Collision Course: No one abused the natural gas being exposed to my surprise, but no one mined the minerals either. Given that the mineral walls were essentially real walls, I'm more wondering about how narrow chokes in the middle of the map can viably be. It's true that battles rarely happen in the dead center of the map. I didn't think the games on this map were generally very good. Rest Calm: The mineral wall was mined once (which was once more than I expected it to be mined) though it did take all the other expansions being taken first and even then Impact unaccountably tried to mine the gold from the other side. The natural's shape and the third adjacent to the main wasn't abuse as hard as I thought it would be--some players even expanded to that third. I still don't think this is a good map (even ignoring the fact that it only qualifies for this category on paper). Loss Aversion: MC did mine the mineral wall once to expand on the other side though no one else did. 55 minerals is a lot. The mineral wall did enable a lot of proxy reapers tbf. Neo Tokyo Turbo Cruise '84: There were a lot of pushes straight down the middle through the Inhibitor Zones since there aren't that many other paths to take. Army movement wasn't very interesting on this map. Mungyeong Saejae: The inhibitor zone usage ended up being somewhat marginal on this map, but more importantly the map itself felt too large and sprawling even without the inhibitor zones. Break Out: The inhibitor zones didn't matter at all as expected, and in fact the middle diamond wasn't used much. There were some very interesting holds at the very distant vertical third, but here too the corners (and most of the map) never ended up getting used. Winter's Gate: The only good map of all the challenge maps. The layout was good, the inhibitor zones ended up mattering (especially the one in front of the third and those next to the main), and the games too were pretty good. Ranking: 1. Ephemeron 2. Winter's Gate 3. Triton 4. Black Baroque 5. Heatwave 6. Acropolis 7. Bandwidth 8. Operation Lockdown 9. Thunderbird 10. Loss Aversion 11. Mungyeong Saejae 12. Neo-Tokyo Turbo Cruise '84 13. Collision Course 14. Disco Bloodbath 15. Break Out 16. Rest Calm It feels like this map contest there weren't any truly 'bad' maps, but the challenge maps fell very flat, and overall the maps were (as usual) way too macro-heavy which means that terran gets shafted. I'm not sure if you can build a reasonable map pool out of these maps. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On the "These are all 2 player map" thing, this is pretty much necessary. 4 player maps without forced cross spawns tend to cause some matchups to be quite unevenly balanced. I've been watching 2016 GSL, which had multiple 4 player maps, and too often who would win depended too much on spawn position. Terran would almost always win if they got close horizontal spawns against zerg in such a way that zerg could not expand to their closest third. Terran would tank push the natural and drop the far third and often there was nothing zerg could do to stop it because they would have to split their forces too much, whereas had they spawned cross positions or vertical, the game would have been much closer. Likewise, if Protoss scouted zerg last and zerg early pooled, it was often a build-order loss for the protoss since zerg could overlord scout one base and drone scout the other and find protoss just as the pool finished. 4 player maps tend to create a lot of poor quality games because of this type of stuff. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
Look at many of the standard/macro maps which are """good""". These maps have ""unique"" layouts and great flow yet it really makes you ponder because after a second look, after loading the map into the editor and trying them out, why..., why oh why is this map one of the "best" maps that deserves to win TLMC? So, I look at all the maps and truly try to focus on why this map is good. I look at the layout, the map size, the pathways and the base layout and try to think how all the matchups will play out on the map and overall, after the entire gameplan has played out in my head, I analyze the map and go... Holy shit... This map is... (Insert Compliment or Expletive!!!) Suddenly we all go Oprah Winfrey and start handing out finalist spots! Good job on submitting, you get a finalist spot! And you get a finalist spot! And you get one!!! And you do too!!!! Whoa, congrats!!! Your map blows ass but because you actually submit to our contest, you get a silver trophy no matter what!! Get enough votes and maybe, just maybe you'll get the gold!!! (ps, spend $5 and get platinum guaranteed!) Anyway, onto the maps and why they are or are not good... Yup, let the rage/annoyance/anger commence! Bandwidth is just CODA/Muspelheim rotated 90 degrees. (IeZaeL copycat map lol, sure this kid is good at aesthetics but has he ever created a single map which was original/legit? News flash... Nope!) Music246 is a good mapper, very good actually, but this map, waaay too boring. It's like the very same joke where people say open up map XYZ, rotate it 90 degrees and resubmit it... In this case, congrats, you did it music246! Muspelheim... Coda... err, I mean, Bandwidth!!! Nice job! Operation Lockdown has far 3rds, too aggressive middle bases which will never get used and boring corners...but hey, IeZaeL map, instant finalist!!! Ephemeron is actually really good and even though you're limited to a single 3rd base it offers different paths for a 4th (aggressive or defensive) but hey, it's a Negative Zero map so of course it's good. Last standard map is Triton which isn't too bad, although the map layout, the base layout and the overall pathways (NE/SW corners & bases which are garbage) make it not that great. A good standard map means the whole map is worthwhile and will get used, this map...those corners, ugh. Also the forward bases are pretty exposed and open which means it'll be really hard for any race (maybe mech terran / pfort??) to hold it successfully? So, since my opinion on Standard maps are done and unless we get another Muspelheim clone or Negative Zero wins more finalist spots.... many of these maps won't be very well received. With those failures, now we look at the macro maps... Acropolis, whoa... Whoa, whoa whoa! This map...is actually not bad at all! Holy shit, we actually have a map that should be a finalist? Way to go RMQ! Congrats! After a bunch of failures, it's nice to finally get a map that is worthwhile and hopefully going forward we get more and more actual good maps... Continuing on a high note... we have none other than Disco Bloodbath which is...err, well, complete garbage, a boring 3rd, an abusible vertical 3rd, a shit load of air space with the main and completely worthless NE/SW corner bases? Sweet! Epic, macro map brosssss but hey, it's large and has many bases sooo, MACRO!!! Zzzz.... Yeah, strike 1. Next winner... Just kidding! Black Baroquehq, the map that should be a finalist in the macro cat..catego...category... errr, well...You thought we'd continue with good maps but surprise, we get Black Baroquehq! Main>Nat>3rd isn't terrible (assuming horizontal 3rd.) The triangle third is super far away and exposed. The horizontal 3rd and 4th mineral lines are so smashed into one another they have no room to maneuver and the eight bases in the NE and SW corners are complete and utter garbage. But hey, if you make a map big enough and spam bases over and over again and make an appealing aesthetic then guess what, you can win TLMC as well! Heat Wave...! Holy shit, heat wave! Finally! Christ almighty, themusic246!!! A good freaking macro map!!!! Not much air space in the map, choice of thirds, pathways all around the map, chokes and large paths, abusible bases, what? It's like the judges finally randomed a good map out of their picks! Cheers! After the Standard and Macro maps we get into the other maps which...well, truth be told, don't really matter. These maps have """challenges""" which... LOL, are pathetic! They make terrible maps and truthfully will never get onto ladder so what's the point? I get it, challenges are "fun" but they don't create good maps, especially when you force styles out. Also, what TL reader will ever vote a challenge map to win it all... Yup, that doesn't happen! Think about it. Nahhhh... you voted that same damn Standard map everybody else did so grats to that fucker for winning the prize pot!! Thunderbird - truthfully, it's not bad at all. It does the whole main, nat and third that hugs in a triangle layout with a defensible position well, although the mineral placement is freaking terrible. So very bad, ughhh. Look at that triangular third, wtf is that? Also, what's the point of limiting a potential 4th base?? Right now, you force everybody to take the forward low-ground 4th and with that, gg, nice try, that's boring, limiting expansions isn't good. But when your map isn't that good, add low yield resources on a "macro" map and GG you may stand a chance to win the challenge category!!! Collision_Course - I don't even know...wait, I do. It's another IeZaeL map, GG he wins!!!! Holy shit, this map doesn't do anything with mineral walls at all besides a random path in the middle which will never get used? But hey, it's a standard map with some random mineral walls...LEGIT! For fuck sake, stop sucking IeZaeL's nuts and finally realize his maps aren't god's next gift. PS. Any 3rd is super open, the main is super exposed and the wall-off for any type of 3rd is extremely open, however this map """won""" a mineral wall map. How does that make any sense?? Oh, nevermind, IeZaeL!  Rest_Calm - This is all I have to say, look at that natural and look at the triangular 3rd. Park a lib, park a siege, park a lurker, park anything with fucking range and you're gone. But hey, attack the nat and then blink up into the main because LOL EXPOSED!!!! How did this win? Wait, I know why! Because, MINERAL FIELDS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAP!!!!!1111 Yeah... For a map that is "Proficient" at mineral walls, this map is... wow. Complete and utter garbage. Next. There's a reason I say Negative Zero is the best mapper in the community and this map does it. Loss Aversion, a map, with mineral walls that..well, guess what, actually has a pro/con! It makes the natural easier but also makes your main more exposed! (unless you control it and have vision!) You have a forward 3rd unless you mine your natural wall out and take the more defensive 3rd. Honestly, the natural mineral lines should be pushed up horizontal/vertical 2 or 3 hexes but still, Negative is the best mapper and he's proving it again! This map is one of the top maps of this tournament, good job judges, actually voting a map into the finalist spot that actually deserves it!! Now, we get to maps which are so worthwhile because they have slow fields, maps which are the best of the best because they utilize these slow fields and truly make sure they are something the player never expected... Just kidding, let's start with Neo Tokyo!!! It's basically a normal map but guess what... if you rush through the middle, it takes a whole 8 seconds longer to rush!!! because... SLOW FIELDS!!!!!! The rest of the map is completely standard and normal, there isn't anything special with it, BUT...BUT!!! if you rush the middle, if you bypass the entire outside, if you ignore every other path, because of the slow fields, it takes 8 seconds longer to reach your base! BOOYA! CHALLENGE 2 WINNER!!!! So, continuing with the Neo-Tokyo standard, what happens if we make a better standard map and place the slow fields in even better spots!!! What happens then? Well... Welcome to Mungyeong Saejae!!! The main attack path doesn't even walk through slow fields and truthfully the slow fields don't make any difference at all in the map... But hey, it's a great standard/macro map, so if we just shit a few slow fields in for the """challenge requirement""" then congratulations, TLMC winner!!! Zzzz I don't even want to talk about Break Out. Let's add two random slow fields in the middle of a giant macro map and guess what... WINNER of the category!!!!!! The entire corners of the map blow ass (NE and SW corners), the golds are... wtf??? Let's randomly add watchtowers because...why not? and last but not least, let's force players into a 4th because the other one is so far away and extremely exposed. But hey, SLOW FIELDS!!!! on a macro map!!! Winner!!! Last but not least... Winter's Gate by Marras and as I want to rage at this map, I start to look at the flow, the base layout and the usage of slow fields and I'm like...whoa. This is a map that is...well, truthfully... wtf??? Good for challenge #2! Sure there are only 6 slow fields but no matter what way you attack from unless you go way out of your way you'll be attacking into a slow field. If you attack into the third and unless you take out rocks/go up a ramp you have to move in a slow field. Who would have thunk, Marras did things well! Congrats! Only worthwhile maps... 1st: Heat Wave 2nd: Loss Aversion 3rd: Acropolis 4th: Ephemeron 5th: Winter's Gate The Rest? Meh, better luck next tlmc? --- PS. This post was written and posted with a little help from the lovely alcoholic beverage known as rum. So yeah, it may be a lot more hostile than it should be! haha <3. Either way... Enjoy folks!  | ||
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Elentos
55566 Posts
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IeZaeL
Italy991 Posts
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Durnuu
13322 Posts
On February 24 2019 16:10 SidianTheBard wrote: A good standard map means the whole map is worthwhile and will get used, this map...those corners, ugh. Coming from the creator of Abyssal Reef hahahahaha | ||
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themusic246
United States213 Posts
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