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Kantuva
Uruguay206 Posts
On February 10 2019 23:28 Weavel wrote: I really miss Frost and Whirlwind... I guess it's the age of endless 2 spawn corner maps. Indeed, Im sad aswell, but the gameplay in LotV atm isnt really allowing for them I want to be proven wrong tho, as I actually kinda enjoy scouting in 4p maps ( Dont enjoy getting 13/12'd in 4p maps tho x.x) | ||
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Avexyli
United States694 Posts
On February 11 2019 00:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: Playing incredibly safe yet again, i feel like this judge team needs more diversity, too many conservatives clearly! Overall a lot of boring maps and that you can make the finalists of the challenge categories while barely using the special mechanic is rather questionable. Damned if we do, damned if we don't sort of situation. Also I was very against maps that barely used the feature, and fought against it, but it's based off highest average scores /shrug | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Gemini_19
United States1241 Posts
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
I am worried that the combination of safe and dense expansions with small, choked middles is contributing to Protoss being so powerful right now, but there isn't much that can be done about that because everybody is making that type of map. We'll have to see if Blizz responds with a balance patch or if it balances out in the meta. I don't think that these TLMC maps are (unfortunately) going to improve the specific balance of PvX. Edit: It is too bad to only see one map make use of a HY geyser and only one additional map with a gold base. Though, that does reflect on the fact that there were many players/pros on the judging panel. It would have been cool to see some usage of half bases (in-bases, back-doors, islands, half-base aggressive expos, etc.) but maybe we will in the future. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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themusic246
United States211 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On February 11 2019 04:56 Avexyli wrote: Damned if we do, damned if we don't sort of situation. Definitely ^ | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
On February 11 2019 11:53 brickrd wrote: snippy comments from people who aren't mapmakers about how the mapmakers aren't "creative" enough followed by a gigantic Snute rebuttal? it's TLMC time again x) and then in a few weeks or months from now we'll have a bunch of eu pros that didn't judge whining on twitter about the new wcs map pool | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On February 11 2019 17:12 Liquid`Snute wrote: x) and then in a few weeks or months from now we'll have a bunch of eu pros that didn't judge whining on twitter about the new wcs map pool My favorite was when a certain Terran player called Dreamcatcher "the worst map ever made" | ||
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Avexyli
United States694 Posts
On February 11 2019 17:12 Liquid`Snute wrote: x) and then in a few weeks or months from now we'll have a bunch of eu pros that didn't judge whining on twitter about the new wcs map pool dont worry ill just spam tweet the multiple times i asked for judges and tell them to stfu  | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
Bandwidth: Bandwidth does the Coda thing, but adds to it a high base and choke density which I'm not sure work too well. The rocked bridge is well placed generally speaking, but it feels like there's a ton of good attack paths anyways from the fourth base (in front of the main). This map isn't particularly compelling, but it also isn't 'bad'. The French expression "c'est pas terrible" sums it up. Operation Lockdown: I liked the map quite a bit at first glance, but the more I look at it the more I see issues. This is exactly the type of map that mapmakers love and then turns out to not to be very good at all. The exposed natural gases might be fine just because of how long the far attack path is. However the four centre bases don't look very viable. My guess is the whole Eastwatch-esque (without vision blocking) setup in the middle with small chokes and open areas probably doesn't work as well as on Eastwatch since this map isn't completely gigantic. Maybe taking four bases with the clockwise third and the closest center base just works and I'm wrong though. A bit unsure about this one. Triton: I like this map quite a bit. The 'centre' bases are quite a strong position for either the attacker or the defender, but that's fine. Many of the gases of the bases feel a bit in the way of the action. Feels like a good opportunity to use high yield gases (especially for the third immediately adjacent to the main where the terrain is kinda distorted to allow for a passage around the gases). Ephemeron: This is also a map that mapmakers will have a tendency to like better than it actually is, but I can't find too many concrete flaws with it. Only one possible third to expand to isn't the norm. nowadays, but that's not necessarily a problem. The three bridges in the middle is the obvious point of interest. I find myself liking the map less once the rocks are down since armies just kinda move around the central square. The middle is rather narrow so it has quite a bit of split-map ultra-late game potential. Disco Bloodbath: I sure hope there won't be too many battles around this centre, because the players will end up blind. Apart from that the rocks are placed kinda haphazardly, and the middle is overly choked up. Some of the bases feel really gratuitous like the one stuck right between the two other ones in the top right/bottom left. Really not a fan of this layout overall. Acropolis: The third on this map is really easy, which happens to be what the category demands, but it's probably too easy. The centre of the map gives good pressure on the lowground fourth and makes the 12/6 o'clock bases very hard to take, but doesn't really hinder someone just expanding all the way vertically at all. The watchtower are nice places to fight about and make it look like things are happening before the map inevitably forces a long and drawn out macro game. I'm exaggerating a bit, but this map is generally fine but too safe. Black Baroque: This third is very close and also too safe. This extends to the entire top right/bottom left corners being incredibly safe. Yet again the watchtower is well uses as a double edge offensive/defensive tool, but things are definitely heavily favouring the defender. The rocks covering half the ramp on the corner base are the equivalent of someone adding a combination lock on something they placed in their bank vault. The main does have a very reasonable amount of surface area at least. Yet again the layout is essentially rock solid, but caters very heavily to the defender. Heatwave: This map looks like a reasonable middle of the road macro map. The fact that some races want to expand linearly clockwise for the first four bases, but then the next four on this side of the map are located counterclockwise is a bit awkward, but manageable. The corner bases aren't the most exciting thing in the world. Thunderbird: Otherwise the fact that all the small minerals are worth five is very interesting and should make for some novel gameplay. A lot of things that seem quite bad at first glance like the three bases behind a single choke and the awkward rush distances are all rendered somewhat moot by the fact that they're all worth five. This is a map I really don't know how it will work, and am excited to find out. The double rich vespene geysers are a pretty bad idea though even if realistically the central bases are very hard to take. Collision Course: The natural mineral line looks pretty vulnerable. The base placement just looks awkward if you just look at it without considering the minerals. And then if you factor back in the presence of the minerals it remains awkward. The middle is narrowed by the minerals which is great, but then the way around that choke is really long. Not a fan of the map overall. Rest Calm: The mineral wall is truly completely irrelevant to the overall map. This is bad on two counts: a map shouldn't have irrelevant features, and a map shouldn't get through in a challenge category if it has nothing to do with the challenge. Apart from that I don't like the map much even if you discount the fact that it was supposed to be using mineral walls. The natural is very awkwardly shaped which allows for a large surface of attack and a vulnerable ramp. The base below the main and adjacent to the natural essentially can't be expanded to due to where the ramp is placed, and overall this layout isn't very good. Loss Aversion: The minerals matter more here than on Rest Calm, but it's still a pretty awful challenge #1 attempt. The map's layout is pretty decent discounting the mineral wall though. If Blueshift was Catalyst's twin brother, this is at least an inbred cousin, but hey if it works it works. If this map makes it onto ladder at the same time as Disco Bloodbath I'll assume Blizzard was paid off by a LASIK consortium. Neo Tokyo Turbo Cruise '84: The Inhibitor Zone usage is pretty basic, but that's reasonable for a new feature being used. Less of a fan of the layout which basically is a bunch of straight lines from top left to bottom right or of the corners. The layout does accentuate the importance of the Inhibitor Zoned corridor, but it also plays against it, since there aren't many decisions to make about whether to go through it. The center bases probably won't be taken often and it'll be interesting to see how strong terran pushes straight down the center using the inhibitor zones as cover will be in TvZ. Mungyeong Saejae: The use of inhibitor zones is pretty messy and could certainly be better, but it's still seems intriguing in the way it offsets the advantage of high ground. The layout stands by itself, but also works with the inhibitor zones. Break Out: Not only does this map manage to not use the Inhibitor Zone in any meaningful way, it also happens to make the map slightly worse by including the Inhibitor Zone. The map itself is interesting--linear third a bit far/hard to defend and a few other issues like that (plus the obvious possibility of two armies passing each other by quite easily, but regardless it's a dubious judging decision to make this map (as well as Rest Calm and Loss Aversion) finalists. At that point why bother with categories Winter's Gate: This map has both a reasonably simple and clean application of the Inhibitor Zones, and also important decision-making around the zones. The middle ground is significant but not mandatory due to the passages to the side of the middle. The Inhibitor Zones against drops are cute too. I think the corners could be better, but overall the map is still pretty solid, and the one of the four that to my mind best showcases the use of inhibitor zones. The judges mostly did a pretty good job of avoiding awful and very obviously mediocre maps this time though, so props there. Here's a (somewhat arbitrary since things were pretty close) ranking because I know no one will read this wall of text: 1. Winter's Gate 2. Thunderbird (probably too high but fueled by optimism) 3. Triton 4. Ephemeron 5. Mungyeong Saejae 6. Heatwave 7. Black Baroque 8. Acropolis 9. Operation Lockdown (could move quite a bit depending on what I see in map tournament) 10. Bandwidth 11. Disco Bloodbath 12. Neo-Tokyo Turbo Cruise 13. Collision Course | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
On February 11 2019 17:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Neo Tokyo Turbo Cruise '84: The Inhibitor Zone usage is pretty basic, but that's reasonable for a new feature being used. Less of a fan of the layout which basically is a bunch of straight lines from top left to bottom right or of the corners. The layout does accentuate the importance of the Inhibitor Zoned corridor, but it also plays against it, since there aren't many decisions to make about whether to go through it. The center bases probably won't be taken often and it'll be interesting to see how strong terran pushes straight down the center using the inhibitor zones as cover will be in TvZ. For the central corridor, i think there is still a choice because of what the paths offer to the attacker. The choices will change depending on where both players take their 3rd base. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/v6KFovB.jpg) I spent quite a lot of time just on the placement and the size of the IZG in front of the natural because i was thinking about long range units from the attacker. This is why the IZG is large and doesn't cover the path just in front of the natural but a lot of the path near the middle. | ||
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Colouss
United States501 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On February 11 2019 19:15 Superouman wrote: For the central corridor, i think there is still a choice because of what the paths offer to the attacker. The choices will change depending on where both players take their 3rd base. + Show Spoiler + I spent quite a lot of time just on the placement and the size of the IZG in front of the natural because i was thinking about long range units from the attacker. This is why the IZG is large and doesn't cover the path just in front of the natural but a lot of the path near the middle. Of course there are still some attack paths, but the feeling I got is that the attack paths are predicated on all the regular stuff--expo, army positioning, and not so much the IZGs themselves. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
Thank you for removing the stupid categories you used in the past, like "rush" maps. The challenges is a much better way to promote creativity. | ||
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themusic246
United States211 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On one hand the 'rush' category produced no good maps, and the 'new' category didn't produced all that many (New Gettysburg was good, Neon Violet and Sequencer were decent). On the other hand, now there is no place at all in the TLMC map contest for maps that are non-standard, and maps that are slightly innovative and can slot in standard/macro get thrown out for not being standard enough. And the challenges haven't yet produced any good maps (all of those from TLMC11 were quite bad, and the jury is still out on these ones), so there aren't any results backing the assertion that challenges are better. | ||
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Zweck
Germany211 Posts
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