• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:15
CEST 23:15
KST 06:15
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak5DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview8herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)15Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho4
Community News
EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)7Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results212025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14Code S Season 1 - Classic & GuMiho advance to RO4 (2025)4
StarCraft 2
General
DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview Any reason why RuFF's stream is still on sidebar? Power Rank: October 2018 herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results
Tourneys
EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) [GSL 2025] Code S Season 1 - RO4 and Grand Finals RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series DreamHack Dallas 2025 announced (May 23-25) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Artosis baned on twitch ? who is JiriKara /Cipisek/ from CZ Practice Partners (Official)
Tourneys
[ASL19] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Grand Theft Auto VI Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Men's Fashion Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11208 users

StarCraft II Panel discussion on art & gameplay

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Normal
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-19 22:54:30
May 19 2007 22:51 GMT
#1
art design

+ Show Spoiler +
Blizzard talks Starcraft II art design
A panel of the Irvine, CA-based studio's top artists discuss the art design and environments in the newly announced Starcraft II.
By Andrew Park, GameSpot


SEOUL--At the 2007 Worldwide Invitational event, Blizzard Entertainment is offering tournament play for its hardcore fans and open panel discussions for its inquisitive ones. The company's senior artists, including senior 3D artist Dave Berggren, senior 3D artist Allen Dilling, senior 3D artist Trevor Jacobs, lead technical artist Rob McNaughton, and senior art director Samwise Didier, sit on a panel to discuss how the studio creates art "the Blizzard way."

Didier explains that within the core philosophies of Blizzard art design, "nothing is subtle--every character is over-the-top; every environment is either beautiful or battle-scarred." Says, the art director, Blizzard's characters come to life by means of strong silhouettes, exaggerated proportions, distinctive animations, and "bold, saturated colors" so that they not only look memorable, but are easy to distinguish at a glance--an important quality for real-time strategy units that must often be viewed from a zoomed-out view. Didier adds that at Blizzard, art is something that "isn't finished until the game is shipped"--artists typically work on continued passes right until games are complete.

Technical artist McNaughton then takes the stage and explains how the studio uses a handful of primary art tools to create its games; Adobe Photoshop for texture art, 3D Studio Max for its low-polygon models, Mudbox for its high-polygon models, and its own proprietary toolsets, such as "Startools," to create in-game objects such as trees and other "doodads," and "Scumedit," the updated map editor. McNaughton also points out that Startools and Scumedit will be part of the map- and mod-making tools that will ship wth the game. McNaughton explains that Starcraft II's graphics will be based off of the DirectX 9.0 API will full support for Pixel Shader 2.0, including support for conventional DirectX 9.0 effects such as normal mapping and high dynamic range lighting and bloom. However, though the game will be playable on both WindowsXP and Vista, Starcraft II, in its current early state, does not support DirectX 10. The artist tempers his description of the advanced graphical effects by explaining that although the game will feature advanced graphical effects, it will scale, to some extent, downward to still allow players who don't own cutting-edge PC hardware to play the game.

3D artist Trevor Jacobs then discusses the process of how Blizzard starts with 2D concept art and eventualy arrives at finished models, using the Protoss "immortal" tank as an example to go from hand drawing to rough model (adjusted to make sure the model looks good from the traditional RTS overhead view) to texturing to polish, and 3D artist Allen Dilling reiterates the importance of creating distinctive animations for units. As an example, Dilling shows the Starcraft II flying mutalisk and tiny, doglike zerglings in action, both alone and in large crowds. Starcraft II's units will have multiple "move cycle" animations so they don't all move in unison with the exact same frames of animation; the crowd of zerglings looks especially creepy because none of them seems to be running about in the same way or in the same direction, like a swarm of hyperactive fire ants.

Dilling explains that because Starcraft II is being developed with professional competition in mind, the sequel's special effects will be "tight, fast, and quick" such that they don't obscure the action or slow down your computer. However, "landmark events" like the summoning of the top-level protoss mothership unit will be accompanied by sufficient graphical fanfare to point out their importance.


The panel winds down with a brief presentaton on environments from 3D artist Dave Berggren, who suggests that Starcraft II will take place both in new worlds and in worlds that had appeared in the original game. Berggren shows concepts for the protoss world of Bel'Shir, a lush, jungle planet that had once served as a religious retreat for the race before it was sacked by the zerg--the planet has since become covered in ruined temples. Berggren also introduces Braxis Alpha, the terran settlement that appeared in yesterday's video presentation. Braxis Alpha will be a combination of industrial wasteland and mountainous regions, covered in craggy rock formations and factory-like debris, such as loose gears and turbines that jut out from mountain faces. Finally, Berggren shows concept art of the zerg world of Char (where Kerrigan, the former terran ghost unit-turned-zerg-commander holds court), which will, like in the previous games, be a craggy, volcanic planet covered in lava floes. Berggren points out that although Blizzard's art team is taking advantage of modern texturing approaches to environments by mapping terrains and overlaying photorealistic textures, the art team will also make final passes to tweak environmental areas by hand.


gameplay details

+ Show Spoiler +
Blizzard talks Starcraft II gameplay details
Blizzard Entertainment's top creative talent discusses Starcraft II gameplay details at a panel discussion at its Worldwide Invitational event.
By Andrew Park, GameSpot


SEOUL--Believe it or not, even though the Blizzard Worldwide Invitational 2007 event is home to music concerts and some of the biggest game tournaments in the world, one of the most intriguing activities is actually sitting quietly in a theater. Three of Blizzard's top creative talents, creative director Andy Chambers, senior game designer Dustin Browder, and vice president of game design Rob Pardo sit on a panel to discuss gameplay details for the company's newly announced sequel, Starcraft II.

Pardo begins the discussion by revisiting several of the studio's previous games, going back as far as Warcraft II, which the vice president cites as the first Blizzard game to garner a significant following as a competitive multiplayer game. Pardo explains that the original Starcraft arose from the team's desire to create a fast-paced real-time strategy game like Warcraft II, but in a different universe, then describes how Blizzard's subsequent RTS project, 2002's Warcraft III, took a very different approach by offering slower-paced gameplay with smaller armies, hero units, and many units with activatable abilities to appeal to "the average gamer." Pardo suggests that the units in both the original Starcraft, and in the sequel, will instead act as "movers and shooters"--mostly autonomous forces that generally lack special abilties, but will instead be used in large control groups to "do their own thing" in battle, rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play.

Pardo continues to contrast Warcraft III against Starcraft II, explaining that Warcraft III had less of an emphasis on economic buildup to allow more focus on battles. The 2002 game also, suggests the VP, was much less about early-game victories. While that game did introduce "creeps"--neutral creatures that could be fought to gain experience points for your hero units, early armies in Warcraft III were generally capable of only harrassing your enemies, not defeating them outright. Pardo suggests that "with Starcraft II, [Blizzard is] really going back to its roots to make a true sequel to Starcraft"--a sequel where resource management will be much more central to gameplay, with less micromanagement of different units with special abilities, and in which full-on early-game "rushing" (making an all-out assault at or near the beginning of a new game session) will be much more viable. In fact, the VP goes on to state that the game will probably offer more early "tech tree" optons--different development paths players can take by building different structures and researching different upgrades--which will make early-game scouting more important, and will make early-game rushing a more-diverse and deeper strategy.

Pardo also suggests that Warcraft III might have been a more-forgiving game for beginners--differences in skill levels seemed less pronounced in that game. Says the VP, in Starcraft II, there will be many more nuances that will separate highly skilled players from beginners, and good players from great ones. So in contrast to the sometimes-protracted matches of Warcraft III, Pardo expects the average Starcraft II multiplayer match to last about 20 minutes of real time; possibly even as little as 15 minutes when played by the pros. Pardo points out that there will be numerous subtleties added to the game that expert players will learn to use to their advantage, such as a revamped "high ground" system. In the previous Starcraft, ground units that had a height advantage by standing on high ground gained attack bonuses, but would also reveal themselves when attacking. In the sequel, units with high ground will still gain the attack bonuses but will remain concealed by the "fog of war" (the black shroud that covers unexplored areas)--a fact that can be used together with other line-of-sight nuances to your advantage.

Pardo ends his part of the talk by emphasizing that Blizzard remains committed to making the three factions distinct, and to making Starcraft II's gameplay true to the original game, but also different and new. For instance, the VP cites the new protoss units and abilities that have been shown--the ability to "warp-in" to different locations, and the powerful mothership unit. Says the VP, yes, Blizzard could have also looked to create a "terran version" and a "protoss version" of these new units and abilities, but the team did not. It is instead looking to balance the factions against each other while keeping them distinct. Pardo suggests that Starcraft II will, like the original game, still be a game about "hard counters"--such as how certain units can be directly "countered" (defeated decisively) by specific counter-units; as an example, Pardo shows a brief demonstration of protoss templar units, which are the counter-unit to zerglings, annihilating a swarm of the tiny zerg infantry with their "psi storm" ability. Says Pardo: "Yes, [Starcraft II] will stil be fast-paced and have 'multitasking' for resources and combat, but it'll be a very different game."

The floor is then given to game designer Dustin Browder, who uses his time to cite specific examples of different units in play. To begin with, Browder shows a demonstration of the protoss stalker, a ground-based unit that can attack both air and ground enemies and isn't all that tough, but can "blink" (warp in and out) to any location to which they have line of sight. The obvious uses of this handy ability include pursuing fleeing units by constantly "blinking in" in front of them, but they can also apparently be used as powerful base raiders by bypassing terrain barriers if you have an aerial scout, such as the protoss phoenix, to quickly get you line-of-sight beyond terrain obstacles. In addition, extremely skilled players will be able to defeat slower-moving melee enemies with stalkers by sticking and moving, repeatedly blinking in and out of range. The designer shows a demonstration of stalkers up against a group of protoss zealots, somewhat slow melee units that simply aren't able to close in for a hit as the stalkers keep blinking away and firing constantly, eventually winning the battle.

Browder shows how the new units and new abilties for existing units will help diversify gameplay and work within the counter-unit system. For instance, the protoss immortal, a ground-based tank unit, is extremely tough but slow (and can therefore be countered by quick-thinking players with enough resources to build up counter-units, and is also therefore not able to effectively flee from a losing battle), and possesses a powerful energy shield that is triggered only from heavy-duty fire. This makes the immortal a natural counter-unit for the terran siege tank, whose powerful cannons can't do much against the immortal's energy shield. However, the slow-moving immortals themselves can be easily countered by a large swarm of zerglings, which don't deal enough damage to trigger the immortals' shields, and are too quick for the tank to outrun.

Browder then shows an additional example of the kind of subtleties that will separate skilled players from unskilled players. The protoss phoenix, a flying unit, has a special "overload" ability that creates a damaging energy field around itself, then renders it immobile and helpless shortly afterward. Browder shows a simulated battle between a player with six phoenix units and another player with only four. The player with six phoenixes apparently chokes and uses the overload ability too early, allowing the other player to dodge out of harm's way, then arrange the four phoenixes around the now immobile six in a loose formation and overload the six into oblivion, which suggests that sheer numbers won't always prevail in the face of high-level skill in Starcraft II.

Browder then shows a demonstration of protoss warp-in technology, which can be used to mount a powerful surprise offense by summoning a large army seemingly out of nowhere. However, the same tech can apparently be used for base defense; the designer shows how an early zergling raid on a protoss base goes sour as the tiny zerg suddenly find themselves boxed in between protoss buildings and a small contingent of melee-attacking zealots, with immortal tanks lobbing fire from a distance. The designer closes by stating that the team's goals are to "recapture the magic of the original Starcraft, which was a wonderful, wonderful game," and to "make Starcraft II about these three unique races by generating new tactics and strategies."

The panel then takes various questions which reveal some intriguing new details about the sequel. An audience question about future beta plans prompts Pardo to state that Starcraft II will likely have a "closed beta by invitation, similar to [Blizzard's] other products, though this time, [Blizzard] will also enlist the help of pro players to help test for balance." When asked about the status of the terrans (who were decimated at the end of the Brood War expansion pack for the original Starcraft), creative designer Andy Chambers explains that "the UED terran forces were destroyed by Kerrigan's zerg armies (though a few surviving companies may stil be around somewhere)," and that the Terran faction in Starcraft II will primarily consist of the "evil empire" of the Terran Dominion. When asked about the status of lead character Jim Raynor, Chambers replies that since Starcraft II takes place four years after Brood War, "Raynor has been having some adventures for sure," but declines to comment further. Chambers also suggests that the ancient Xel'Naga, which helped both the protoss and zerg races become what they are (but were later destroyed by the zerg) will also figure into Starcraft II's story "in a rather epic tale." To cap the presentation, Browder fields a final question that may come as a relief to some players: that there are "no plans at this time for naval combat in Starcraft II."

What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
May 19 2007 22:54 GMT
#2
psi storm is definitely back baby
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
Bladox
Profile Joined February 2003
Canada763 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-19 23:01:01
May 19 2007 23:00 GMT
#3
On May 20 2007 07:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:


Dilling explains that because Starcraft II is being developed with professional competition in mind, the sequel's special effects will be "tight, fast, and quick" such that they don't obscure the action
or slow down your computer. However, "landmark events" like the summoning of the top-level protoss mothership unit will be accompanied by sufficient graphical fanfare to point out their importance.


THANK YOU SO MUCH

Huh no sorry... this game isnt like counter-strike... You actually need skills to play broodwar!
marshmallow
Profile Joined May 2007
United States93 Posts
May 19 2007 23:00 GMT
#4
StarCraft II takes place four years after the original according to the second article.
Woyn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United Kingdom1628 Posts
May 19 2007 23:14 GMT
#5
No more stacking mutas,etc maybe?
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
May 19 2007 23:19 GMT
#6
They didnt' say anything about it but I've seen nothing to indicate eitherway from the videos.. Probes still stack at least, and flying units in War3 stack somewhat.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
May 19 2007 23:43 GMT
#7
sounds fucking awesome. blizz is definately not going down the wc3 road here.
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-19 23:48:35
May 19 2007 23:47 GMT
#8
Sounds like it's going to be a totally awesome game!

btw, is there a video of this?
Enter a Uh
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42283 Posts
May 19 2007 23:57 GMT
#9
I disapprove of hard counters. While hydra - storm would seem an obvious example of them in starcraft bw always evolves into highly mixed armies in which no one unit dominates. Instead you react by slight adjustments to the composition of your mixed force. I don't want it to become A<B<C<D<E<F<G all the way down the tech tree where the game becomes a predictable mess of counters.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 00:00:42
May 19 2007 23:59 GMT
#10
Isn't that how it already is?
Tanks counter dragoons but zealots counter tanks, but vultures in turn counter zealots which are in turn countered by the dragoons meaning the terran has to make tanks and vultures and the protoss has to make zealots and goons.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
mnm
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
United States4493 Posts
May 20 2007 00:00 GMT
#11
Nice find. Thanks for posting =).
http://www.teamliquid.net/store http://www.teamliquid.net/gallery/
Morzas
Profile Joined August 2005
United States387 Posts
May 20 2007 00:04 GMT
#12
Too bad.
What has four wheels and flies? Stephen Hawking on LSD!
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
May 20 2007 00:06 GMT
#13
On May 20 2007 08:57 Kwark wrote:
I disapprove of hard counters. While hydra - storm would seem an obvious example of them in starcraft bw always evolves into highly mixed armies in which no one unit dominates. Instead you react by slight adjustments to the composition of your mixed force. I don't want it to become A<B<C<D<E<F<G all the way down the tech tree where the game becomes a predictable mess of counters.

No nobody wants builds that totally own eachother (like may be the case in some high-level zvz's), but by hard counters I'm sure they mean between single kind of units. So probably it will ultimately come down to having good compositions just like in sc1.
Enter a Uh
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
May 20 2007 00:14 GMT
#14
there are definitely hard counters in starcraft, fairly obvious ones too:

primary air unit (wraith/scout/muta) < secondary air unit (valk/sair/dev)

static d < capital ships (bc/carrier/guard)

goons < lings < archons < hydras < speed zealots

lings < mnm < lurks < tanks < lings

tank/vult < carrier < goliath < zeal/goon < tank/vult

that doesn't necessarily imply that *pre-scout builds* though, are always hard counters to each other like in ZvvZ
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32273 Posts
May 20 2007 00:14 GMT
#15
Firebats are hard counter to lings. Remember this is all theory in their minds, then later you can pull out micro to change the game balance.
Moderator<:3-/-<
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
May 20 2007 00:17 GMT
#16
On May 20 2007 08:57 Kwark wrote:
I disapprove of hard counters. While hydra - storm would seem an obvious example of them in starcraft bw always evolves into highly mixed armies in which no one unit dominates. Instead you react by slight adjustments to the composition of your mixed force. I don't want it to become A<B<C<D<E<F<G all the way down the tech tree where the game becomes a predictable mess of counters.


Broodwar has tonnes of hard-counters...
Vultures vs Zealots
Firebats vs Zerglings
Corsairs vs Mutas
Scourge vs Carriers
Zealots vs Tanks
Zerglings vs Dragoons

The list goes on, but it doesn't mean you won't see combined arms, in fact it means combined arms will be necessary to win.
Look at WC3 where there are only soft-counters, and the unit variety seen is much lower.
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
May 20 2007 00:37 GMT
#17
The more I hear about SC2, the more I feel confident in Blizzard's ability to make a worthy sequel.

Just show me an Archon and I'll be happy.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
May 20 2007 00:46 GMT
#18
On May 20 2007 09:37 SuperJongMan wrote:
The more I hear about SC2, the more I feel confident in Blizzard's ability to make a worthy sequel.

Just show me an Archon and I'll be happy.


When there is no archon its not Starcraft anymore I guess. But there are high templars.. so there will be archons! Imagine how cool that Archon will look!

Blizzard is definately good in programing games and through their experience they will balance it as well. great game.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
fanta[Rn]
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Japan2465 Posts
May 20 2007 01:07 GMT
#19
Why shouldn't it be SC anymore if there's no archon? -.-
Anyway, cool article THANKS so much, this made me sleep easier tonight.
PinoyTalaga324
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States41 Posts
May 20 2007 01:23 GMT
#20
Dilling explains that because SC2 is being developed with professional competition in mind, the sequel's special effects will be "tight, fast, and quick" such that they don't obscure the action or slow down your computer. However, "landmark events" like the summoning of the top-level protoss mothership unit will be accompanied by sufficient graphical fanfare to point out their importance.

yay!
Thanks u!
lol
Zeenix
Profile Joined May 2007
United States47 Posts
May 20 2007 01:34 GMT
#21
However, though the game will be playable on both WindowsXP and Vista, Starcraft II, in its current early state, does not support DirectX 10. The artist tempers his description of the advanced graphical effects by explaining that although the game will feature advanced graphical effects, it will scale, to some extent, downward to still allow players who don't own cutting-edge PC hardware to play the game.


I just came.
I like pie.
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
May 20 2007 01:36 GMT
#22
On May 20 2007 10:07 fanta[Rn] wrote:
Why shouldn't it be SC anymore if there's no archon? -.-
Anyway, cool article THANKS so much, this made me sleep easier tonight.


Because the archon is one of the most characteristic units in Starcraft.. at least for me.

Power Overwhelming.. Destroy T_T!
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Zeenix
Profile Joined May 2007
United States47 Posts
May 20 2007 01:37 GMT
#23
I always thought the zergling was the most characteristic units in Starcraft. Without them, nobody would fear "LING RUSH KEKEKEEKEKEK!!"
I like pie.
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19130 Posts
May 20 2007 01:38 GMT
#24
Awsome find, really good read and it reassures me even further with an increase in expectations!
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
PoP
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
France15446 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 02:01:00
May 20 2007 02:00 GMT
#25
Excellent stuff, thanks. I'm suddenly way more enthusiastic.
Administrator
TopGear
Profile Joined November 2005
United Kingdom796 Posts
May 20 2007 02:07 GMT
#26
Wow, I have high hopes for this game.

A lot of this information is really reassuring, cant wait.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
May 20 2007 02:24 GMT
#27
Ah... Man I wish they add moving terrains :D

Man I'm cool with everything cept the design on the zerglign T_T
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Bully-Cdn
Profile Joined May 2007
Peru58 Posts
May 20 2007 02:30 GMT
#28
Starcraft II, [Blizzard is] really going back to its roots to make a true sequel to Starcraft"--a sequel where resource management will be much more central to gameplay, with less micromanagement of different units with special abilities, and in which full-on early-game "rushing" (making an all-out assault at or near the beginning of a new game session) will be much more viable. In fact, the VP goes on to state that the game will probably offer more early "tech tree" optons--different development paths players can take by building different structures and researching different upgrades--which will make early-game scouting more important, and will make early-game rushing a more-diverse and deeper strategy.


i keep hearing good things from this team.. they really want to keep the pros/semi-pros/wannabe-pros happy... CANT WAIT TO PLAY!!!
The Trap
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3696 Posts
May 20 2007 02:33 GMT
#29
These two articles really show that Blizzard fully understands what made SC what it is. It just gives me further confidence that they'll hit the mark. More distinct races, a better looking game that will garner more attention from sponsors, fast-paced play, better match-making systems on b.net, better map editor and moddability... I just can't see whats not to like here
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
May 20 2007 02:38 GMT
#30
On May 20 2007 11:24 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Ah... Man I wish they add moving terrains :D

Man I'm cool with everything cept the design on the zerglign T_T

Speaking of moving terrain, what does everyone think of attacks affecting the terrain (at least visually)? Too cluttered maybe?

Burning trees might be cool at least (had it in earlier - alpha, beta - versions of SC :D).
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Dendra
Profile Joined July 2006
Croatia801 Posts
May 20 2007 02:41 GMT
#31
On May 20 2007 08:57 Kwark wrote:
I disapprove of hard counters. While hydra - storm would seem an obvious example of them in starcraft bw always evolves into highly mixed armies in which no one unit dominates. Instead you react by slight adjustments to the composition of your mixed force. I don't want it to become A<B<C<D<E<F<G all the way down the tech tree where the game becomes a predictable mess of counters.

word
what makes bw so special? what do all have games have in common? unit x rapes unit y if you press attack move on it simply because it is the counter to it. how about in bw? you can give same army to 2 people and one can win with either army simple due to superior army control, there are some rules but who sais marines/medics can't rape lurkers? lurkers are like supposed to balance the edition of medics to the terran army but you can see 4lurkers raping 24mm and you can see 12mm raping 4lurkers, there are no certain rules, rules are made by players, who sais you have to use dragoons vs tanks&vults, hell i've seen players have 5groups of zealots+just one group goons against 200/200 NaDa on luna and raping him, it all depends on how you use your units, and if in sc2 they make that stereotype "pikemen counter horsemen so don't try killing an archer with a pikeman" it will suck.
Believing isnt seeing.Seeing is believing,but may not be reality.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
May 20 2007 02:44 GMT
#32
On May 20 2007 11:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 11:24 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Ah... Man I wish they add moving terrains :D

Man I'm cool with everything cept the design on the zerglign T_T

Speaking of moving terrain, what does everyone think of attacks affecting the terrain (at least visually)? Too cluttered maybe?

Burning trees might be cool at least (had it in earlier - alpha, beta - versions of SC :D).

I think they should get rid of burrow holes at least. Especially if they include lurkers, all of the terrain is just going to be holes.

Also, I'm not too sure about the new high terrain advantage, this is going to make cliffed tanks so much harder to deal with.

And please cool it with the laser noises, less laser blasting units and more unique ones from now on!

What's everyone's opinion about the laser beams? Like the Colossus attacks where the beam is always, uh...beaming when attacking. I can really see how that might get in the way.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 02:48:32
May 20 2007 02:44 GMT
#33
On May 20 2007 11:41 Dendra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 08:57 Kwark wrote:
I disapprove of hard counters. While hydra - storm would seem an obvious example of them in starcraft bw always evolves into highly mixed armies in which no one unit dominates. Instead you react by slight adjustments to the composition of your mixed force. I don't want it to become A

word
what makes bw so special? what do all have games have in common? unit x rapes unit y if you press attack move on it simply because it is the counter to it. how about in bw? you can give same army to 2 people and one can win with either army simple due to superior army control, there are some rules but who sais marines/medics can't rape lurkers? lurkers are like supposed to balance the edition of medics to the terran army but you can see 4lurkers raping 24mm and you can see 12mm raping 4lurkers, there are no certain rules, rules are made by players, who sais you have to use dragoons vs tanks&vults, hell i've seen players have 5groups of zealots+just one group goons against 200/200 NaDa on luna and raping him, it all depends on how you use your units, and if in sc2 they make that stereotype "pikemen counter horsemen so don't try killing an archer with a pikeman" it will suck.

There's just no pleasing certain people - first there's too soft counters, then too hard....

All you guys realize that BW is probably considered a hard counter game, right?

I'm pretty sure micro will be important..

On May 20 2007 11:44 mahnini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 11:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
On May 20 2007 11:24 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Ah... Man I wish they add moving terrains :D

Man I'm cool with everything cept the design on the zerglign T_T

Speaking of moving terrain, what does everyone think of attacks affecting the terrain (at least visually)? Too cluttered maybe?

Burning trees might be cool at least (had it in earlier - alpha, beta - versions of SC :D).

I think they should get rid of burrow holes at least. Especially if they include lurkers, all of the terrain is just going to be holes.

Also, I'm not too sure about the new high terrain advantage, this is going to make cliffed tanks so much harder to deal with.

And please cool it with the laser noises, less laser blasting units and more unique ones from now on!

What's everyone's opinion about the laser beams? Like the Colossus attacks where the beam is always, uh...beaming when attacking. I can really see how that might get in the way.


The burrowholes disappear as soon as the lurker is burrowed I assume?

Or were the holes still visible when the lings unburrowed in the videos?

As for the colossus attack, yeaaaaah, not loving it - the constant sound is a little annoying, same for the warpreys. Doesn't feel all that protossish either I think. I mean, it doesn't look bad, just out of place I guess?

EDIT:

I've probably made a 100 posts in the starcraft 2 forum now haha :D
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
May 20 2007 02:53 GMT
#34
On May 20 2007 11:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 11:44 mahnini wrote:
On May 20 2007 11:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
On May 20 2007 11:24 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Ah... Man I wish they add moving terrains :D

Man I'm cool with everything cept the design on the zerglign T_T

Speaking of moving terrain, what does everyone think of attacks affecting the terrain (at least visually)? Too cluttered maybe?

Burning trees might be cool at least (had it in earlier - alpha, beta - versions of SC :D).

I think they should get rid of burrow holes at least. Especially if they include lurkers, all of the terrain is just going to be holes.

Also, I'm not too sure about the new high terrain advantage, this is going to make cliffed tanks so much harder to deal with.

And please cool it with the laser noises, less laser blasting units and more unique ones from now on!

What's everyone's opinion about the laser beams? Like the Colossus attacks where the beam is always, uh...beaming when attacking. I can really see how that might get in the way.


The burrowholes disappear as soon as the lurker is burrowed I assume?

Or were the holes still visible when the lings unburrowed in the videos?

As for the colossus attack, yeaaaaah, not loving it - the constant sound is a little annoying, same for the warpreys. Doesn't feel all that protossish either I think. I mean, it doesn't look bad, just out of place I guess?

EDIT:

I've probably made a 100 posts in the starcraft 2 forum now haha :D

Hmm, didn't really pay attention to if they disappeared or not, come to think of it most of the stuff does disappear. Even the nuke holes, I don't mind it all too much, I guess.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
May 20 2007 02:59 GMT
#35
On May 20 2007 11:41 Dendra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 08:57 Kwark wrote:
I disapprove of hard counters. While hydra - storm would seem an obvious example of them in starcraft bw always evolves into highly mixed armies in which no one unit dominates. Instead you react by slight adjustments to the composition of your mixed force. I don't want it to become A<B<C<D<E<F<G all the way down the tech tree where the game becomes a predictable mess of counters.

word
what makes bw so special? what do all have games have in common? unit x rapes unit y if you press attack move on it simply because it is the counter to it. how about in bw? you can give same army to 2 people and one can win with either army simple due to superior army control, there are some rules but who sais marines/medics can't rape lurkers? lurkers are like supposed to balance the edition of medics to the terran army but you can see 4lurkers raping 24mm and you can see 12mm raping 4lurkers, there are no certain rules, rules are made by players, who sais you have to use dragoons vs tanks&vults, hell i've seen players have 5groups of zealots+just one group goons against 200/200 NaDa on luna and raping him, it all depends on how you use your units, and if in sc2 they make that stereotype "pikemen counter horsemen so don't try killing an archer with a pikeman" it will suck.


Before whining I advise you to read more carefully please, he said it's going to have the same kinds of hard counters as the original starcraft has, and then he gave the example of psi storm vs zerglings. So his definition and your definition of a hard counter seem to differ here, he is not saying the hard counter is an end-all counter based system where good control cannot counter act, he even gives the example of storm vs zerglings and good control can counter that also. Anyways he says it will be like the original SC so stop worrying otherwise.
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
May 20 2007 03:02 GMT
#36
On May 20 2007 11:59 Raist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 11:41 Dendra wrote:
On May 20 2007 08:57 Kwark wrote:
I disapprove of hard counters. While hydra - storm would seem an obvious example of them in starcraft bw always evolves into highly mixed armies in which no one unit dominates. Instead you react by slight adjustments to the composition of your mixed force. I don't want it to become A<B<C<D<E<F<G all the way down the tech tree where the game becomes a predictable mess of counters.

word
what makes bw so special? what do all have games have in common? unit x rapes unit y if you press attack move on it simply because it is the counter to it. how about in bw? you can give same army to 2 people and one can win with either army simple due to superior army control, there are some rules but who sais marines/medics can't rape lurkers? lurkers are like supposed to balance the edition of medics to the terran army but you can see 4lurkers raping 24mm and you can see 12mm raping 4lurkers, there are no certain rules, rules are made by players, who sais you have to use dragoons vs tanks&vults, hell i've seen players have 5groups of zealots+just one group goons against 200/200 NaDa on luna and raping him, it all depends on how you use your units, and if in sc2 they make that stereotype "pikemen counter horsemen so don't try killing an archer with a pikeman" it will suck.


Before whining I advise you to read more carefully please, he said it's going to have the same kinds of hard counters as the original starcraft has, and then he gave the example of psi storm vs zerglings. So his definition and your definition of a hard counter seem to differ here, he is not saying the hard counter is an end-all counter based system where good control cannot counter act, he even gives the example of storm vs zerglings and good control can counter that also. Anyways he says it will be like the original SC so stop worrying otherwise.

Sounds like Dendra agrees with Kwark to me.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 03:35:57
May 20 2007 03:33 GMT
#37
well of course they Say it's going to be like starcraft. i like that they seem more specifically than just in general to be trying to make what starcraft is, but i think for alot of people here faith is coming into play. they're a good company but you have to remember that they're still tryign to sell this game, and alot of this "it will be a revolution in professional gaming" crap can just be trying to take a new angle on the market, not necessarily doing it right. also applies to specific elements of the game, like it being "less micro-oriented than wc3 and more economic based." i sort of like this idea, it should be that way, they mention multitasking that's great. i just hope it's not like mulitasking by sending armies in a bunch directions on attack-move, at a fast pace. economics strike me as potentially a concept of strategy coming before micro -- if done a certain way to contrast wc3 too much for the sake of doing so -- as some new-age rts newbs talk about from time to time.
There are a couple things that bother me at the current stage of their programming which may or may not get better. the way the zealots in that one gameplay video during the charge special ability demonstration, just lept onto their targets and seemed to surround them automatically, seemed a little crappy. there's also something strange and lame about those immortals vs tanks that i just can't put my finger on. for one thing i guess like 5 of them taking on 6 or 7 tanks and still having 4 left in the end. and i may just be clinging but i hope they invent a new ranged unit that has to rush up within tanks' minimal range to define owning or getting owned 'cause that's really fun.
I dont' like how they referred to broodwar in the past tense as having been a great game. who knows if the guy was supposed to put it that way or not but it seems iffily suggestive of bw and sc2 supposing not to coexist in progaming. we could always use another amazing professional title, i dont' see why there can be only one.
Awesome that workers can stack. where'd you see that? i am much more enthused than i was before. it's just that all i see here are mostly purely positive faithful comments, with a couple scattered short, bashed sketicisms. so most of what i have to contribute is negative.
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
May 20 2007 03:37 GMT
#38
If they had a white flash of light all over the map the moment the mothership was completed, it would make for an awesome "Oh, fuck" moment.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
May 20 2007 03:39 GMT
#39
On May 20 2007 12:37 fusionsdf wrote:
If they had a white flash of light all over the map the moment the mothership was completed, it would make for an awesome "Oh, fuck" moment.

haha that would be really cool and scary

sort of like hearing Nuclear Launch Detected, you should be able to see the coming of a mothership from anywhere on the map
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Gokey
Profile Joined November 2006
United States2722 Posts
May 20 2007 03:54 GMT
#40
yeah, when i first read the two gamespot Q&A articles, I was extremely extremely happy that Blizzard seems to know EXACTLY what the Starcraft fans want... I have SO MUCH more confidence in them now
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
May 20 2007 03:57 GMT
#41
More excited than ever right now.

Making cliffed units completely shrouded is going to be interesting.
XCetron
Profile Joined November 2006
5225 Posts
May 20 2007 04:02 GMT
#42
On May 20 2007 12:57 azndsh wrote:
More excited than ever right now.

Making cliffed units completely shrouded is going to be interesting.


Colossus gonna be a bit imba, start shooting to kite ground army then just walk on a cliff and shoot down and melt the army.

Keeps repeating.
Luddite
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2315 Posts
May 20 2007 04:04 GMT
#43
Yeah but remember it looks like there's going to be quite a few units that can jump up cliffs.
So basically what will happen is that units that can jump up cliffs rape units that can't if those don't have a spotter.

Just like how now, cloaked units rape non-cloaked units without a detector.
Can't believe I'm still here playing this same game
EAGER-beaver
Profile Joined March 2004
Canada2799 Posts
May 20 2007 04:13 GMT
#44
No naval combat?!?!?! $*#& this hippy crap, I'm switching to wc3.
Simon and Garfunkel rock my face off
dudel
Profile Joined December 2006
Germany188 Posts
May 20 2007 04:23 GMT
#45
If the colossus is this tall maybe he could look up higher levels normally hidden by the fog of war.
davidgurt
Profile Joined September 2006
United States1355 Posts
May 20 2007 04:26 GMT
#46
"rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play."

What. the. fuck.

I always wonder how much time Blizzard has spent watching Koreans play Starcraft. Time and time again, it always seems as if they barely follow the gaming scene. I think that they could really improve their company by hiring some knowledgeable people in the scene like some of us in TL, they'd learn a lot more about proper publicity and of what the public fanbase for sc is looking for.
There's crashing?
Luhh
Profile Joined October 2003
Sweden2974 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 04:31:02
May 20 2007 04:30 GMT
#47
Hard counters can be fine, if not too extreme. Micro overcome all to even odds against a counter-unit.

BUT - here's a big but - if attack-move AI is very good, and firing animation last too long (for instance the zealot melee attack lasted about twice as long), then there won't be much room for microing. Judging by some of their answers, it looks like they want to do away with a bit of that. If the game gets streamlined too heavily, then BOs will be the major deciding factor.

One thing though, why do they insist with the black shroud? Hopefully this was just a campaign or scenario map they showed so far, where uknown terrain can be viable, but it isn't in a multiplayer map. Cause if you've already played it once, it's not unkown anymore, and there's no point to it, other than messing up scouting and planning if your memory is a bit off. Prescouted map checkbox plz! (fog of war remains of course!)
I wouldn´t call him stupid, but let´s just say he´s unlucky when thinking...
Sadir
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Vatican City State1176 Posts
May 20 2007 04:32 GMT
#48
On May 20 2007 11:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 11:24 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Ah... Man I wish they add moving terrains :D

Man I'm cool with everything cept the design on the zerglign T_T

Speaking of moving terrain, what does everyone think of attacks affecting the terrain (at least visually)? Too cluttered maybe?

Burning trees might be cool at least (had it in earlier - alpha, beta - versions of SC :D).


that was exactly what I thought 2....the tanks exploding...puh....rather big visual effects... we hopefully can turn them down a little...so I can see my units fighting =)

Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
May 20 2007 04:37 GMT
#49
On May 20 2007 13:26 davidgurt wrote:
"rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play."

What. the. fuck.

I always wonder how much time Blizzard has spent watching Koreans play Starcraft. Time and time again, it always seems as if they barely follow the gaming scene. I think that they could really improve their company by hiring some knowledgeable people in the scene like some of us in TL, they'd learn a lot more about proper publicity and of what the public fanbase for sc is looking for.

Warcraft 3:
95% micromanagement
5% macro

Starcraft:
50% macro
50% micro
(maybe a bit more tilted towards macro)

I'm pretty sure that was their point.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19130 Posts
May 20 2007 04:47 GMT
#50
On May 20 2007 13:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 13:26 davidgurt wrote:
"rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play."

What. the. fuck.

I always wonder how much time Blizzard has spent watching Koreans play Starcraft. Time and time again, it always seems as if they barely follow the gaming scene. I think that they could really improve their company by hiring some knowledgeable people in the scene like some of us in TL, they'd learn a lot more about proper publicity and of what the public fanbase for sc is looking for.

Warcraft 3:
95% micromanagement
5% macro

Starcraft:
50% macro
50% micro
(maybe a bit more tilted towards macro)

I'm pretty sure that was their point.


Exactly, and losing one major battle in BW doesnt mean you lost the match, while losing many units in WC3 mostly means you lost the match as well.

More macro oriented % in a game allows for more correctional things and more ways to control your playstyle.

WC3 has less micro then BW since alot of things are autocast and the tab between unit possibility and just 1 caster casts when you got multiple selected. Considering absolutes SC is more complex by far in micro and macro but if you see it relatively WC3 is a much much more micro oriented game then SCBW.
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
May 20 2007 04:52 GMT
#51
WC3 has more micro, but SC requires more mechanics. I feel like you're actually casting a lot more spells and such in WC3 (micro) but it doesn't require as many clicks
XDawn
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
Canada4040 Posts
May 20 2007 05:12 GMT
#52
Well, at least they know what we want
Use it or lose it
XG3
Profile Joined December 2002
United States544 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 05:20:20
May 20 2007 05:14 GMT
#53
On May 20 2007 13:37 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 13:26 davidgurt wrote:
"rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play."

What. the. fuck.

I always wonder how much time Blizzard has spent watching Koreans play Starcraft. Time and time again, it always seems as if they barely follow the gaming scene. I think that they could really improve their company by hiring some knowledgeable people in the scene like some of us in TL, they'd learn a lot more about proper publicity and of what the public fanbase for sc is looking for.

Warcraft 3:
95% micromanagement
5% macro

Starcraft:
50% macro
50% micro
(maybe a bit more tilted towards macro)

I'm pretty sure that was their point.

You hit the nail right on the head.

One example is economic management (which is considered macro), something that Warcraft 3 decided to stay away from. In War3, you have four peons max on the gold mine and you leave it at that.

In StarCraft, econ management is something totally simple that separates bad players from good players from great players and that's just one example of how macro plays a much more important part in SC than WC.
mel_ee
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
2448 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 05:20:09
May 20 2007 05:17 GMT
#54
On May 20 2007 13:26 davidgurt wrote:
"rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play."

What. the. fuck.

I always wonder how much time Blizzard has spent watching Koreans play Starcraft. Time and time again, it always seems as if they barely follow the gaming scene. I think that they could really improve their company by hiring some knowledgeable people in the scene like some of us in TL, they'd learn a lot more about proper publicity and of what the public fanbase for sc is looking for.


say hello to XG3...


^I think its 5 peons per gold mine, which IMO sucked since money was about the same as your opponent

anyways I love how they are approaching the art and design. They got the key concepts of controlling color and detail to where they just need to be. So happy~
Behold the bold soldier, control the globe slowly proceeds to blow swingin swords like Shinobi
Guybrush
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Spain4744 Posts
May 20 2007 06:56 GMT
#55
Im happy to see this. Econ-management is definitely a big part of BW, and it should be in SC2 as well. You should have a choice to play a micro-oriented game - low econ BOs or focus more on your econ in your game - macro oriented BOs.

I liked the way he compared Warcraft 3 to BW. Probably pissed off a good share of Warcraft3ers to read that, but it's the truth.
Live2Win is awesome. Happy new year scarabi!
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
May 20 2007 07:08 GMT
#56
On May 20 2007 13:26 davidgurt wrote:
"rather than requiring the micromanagement of high-level Warcraft III play."

What. the. fuck.

I always wonder how much time Blizzard has spent watching Koreans play Starcraft. Time and time again, it always seems as if they barely follow the gaming scene. I think that they could really improve their company by hiring some knowledgeable people in the scene like some of us in TL, they'd learn a lot more about proper publicity and of what the public fanbase for sc is looking for.


they should hire you
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
XCetron
Profile Joined November 2006
5225 Posts
May 20 2007 07:09 GMT
#57
They should hire Day, he could do live report to the headquarter at each proleague
useLess
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4781 Posts
May 20 2007 07:31 GMT
#58
Im stoked about this. Four years after Brood War, with a more involved role from the Xel'Naga.
Moonlight Shadow
OMFGlearntoplay
Profile Joined May 2007
32 Posts
May 20 2007 10:59 GMT
#59
On May 20 2007 10:23 PinoyTalaga324 wrote:
Dilling explains that because SC2 is being developed with professional competition in mind, the sequel's special effects will be "tight, fast, and quick" such that they don't obscure the action or slow down your computer. However, "landmark events" like the summoning of the top-level protoss mothership unit will be accompanied by sufficient graphical fanfare to point out their importance.

yay!
Thanks u!


Saying it is one thing. But you have seen the videos right? Seeing is believing... there has been some clutter already. It disappears after 4 or 5 seconds... disappears way too slow to matter in a real fight.

But hopefully we can turn that crap off anyway.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
May 20 2007 11:26 GMT
#60
Didier explains that within the core philosophies of Blizzard art design, "nothing is subtle--every character is over-the-top; every environment is either beautiful or battle-scarred."


T_T

This is one of the reasons why critics are critical of video games?
Zironic
Profile Joined May 2007
Sweden341 Posts
May 20 2007 14:18 GMT
#61
On May 20 2007 19:59 OMFGlearntoplay wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 10:23 PinoyTalaga324 wrote:
Dilling explains that because SC2 is being developed with professional competition in mind, the sequel's special effects will be "tight, fast, and quick" such that they don't obscure the action or slow down your computer. However, "landmark events" like the summoning of the top-level protoss mothership unit will be accompanied by sufficient graphical fanfare to point out their importance.

yay!
Thanks u!


Saying it is one thing. But you have seen the videos right? Seeing is believing... there has been some clutter already. It disappears after 4 or 5 seconds... disappears way too slow to matter in a real fight.

But hopefully we can turn that crap off anyway.


You can probably turn the game into 10 pixels fighting another 10 pixels in the grapgics settings if you really want to.
tiffany
Profile Joined November 2003
3664 Posts
May 20 2007 14:59 GMT
#62
somebody posted this comment over at gotfrag, thought it was somewhat conducive to good discussion.

+ Show Spoiler +
Hrmm... PC Gaming industry have come a long way.
Games that simply blew everyone away (Half Life, Doom, Command & Conquer) series have come under heavy fire when designing the next gen sequel to their previous blockbuster games. Perhaps the bar was set too high, or other gaming genres have emerged since then that became funner to play (MMORPG over FPS, Music games over fighting games @ the arcade, etc). These games were good 5-10 years ago, but they necessarily won't be as good with updated graphics and whatnot. What I think hurt them the most was the huge time gap in which the sequels were released.

The charm about StarCraft was the versatility of the game itself. Incredible storyline, graphics sweet to the eye and also easy for the computer to handle, and most of all, the flexibility of multiplayer play. Blizzard takes a different approach with SC2, and I can't help but notice the C&C
elements that have found its way into the game. SC1 was about micro'ing small units and constructing your heavy units to deal the maximum splash damage to opposing units, and allowing a half squadron of special units(vultures, DT, Lurker) to outmaneuver large enemy armies to deal a crucial blow to their resources.
With SC2, all I see are multiple "all-purpose" units that just singlehandedly kick so much @$$, that Blizzard needed to design another unit to counter the previous imba unit. Maybe this was the formula they had with SC1, but this simply does not seem to enrich the gameplay for a sequel.

They shouldn't have labeled this as SC2, as it would generate much expectations for this game to live up to. Maybe something like "Starcraft: (insert any corny sequel line here)". Well, all I have to say is, if you want to enjoy this game, don't treat it as "Starcraft 2". It's a completely different game than the original Starcraft, and gamers shouldn't get upset if the cues aren't completely faithful to the first series. Props for Blizzard for not making this multi-platform. I would've shot myself if I found out SC2 was going to be released on the XBox360. UnrealIII definitely screwed themselves by making that game available to all consoles.
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 15:11:08
May 20 2007 15:04 GMT
#63
i don't think there are any all purpose units other than that mothership (which likely will almost never see competitive play if its balanced right)... they showed each unit's weaknesses in that opening vid

the immortals, stalkers, colossus, everything had a weakness

edit: also someone mentioned this before but immortals look so much like the destroyer droids from star wars episode I, especially when their shields are taking damage
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Zironic
Profile Joined May 2007
Sweden341 Posts
May 20 2007 15:09 GMT
#64
On May 20 2007 23:59 tiffany wrote:
somebody posted this comment over at gotfrag, thought it was somewhat conducive to good discussion.

+ Show Spoiler +
Hrmm... PC Gaming industry have come a long way.
Games that simply blew everyone away (Half Life, Doom, Command & Conquer) series have come under heavy fire when designing the next gen sequel to their previous blockbuster games. Perhaps the bar was set too high, or other gaming genres have emerged since then that became funner to play (MMORPG over FPS, Music games over fighting games @ the arcade, etc). These games were good 5-10 years ago, but they necessarily won't be as good with updated graphics and whatnot. What I think hurt them the most was the huge time gap in which the sequels were released.

The charm about StarCraft was the versatility of the game itself. Incredible storyline, graphics sweet to the eye and also easy for the computer to handle, and most of all, the flexibility of multiplayer play. Blizzard takes a different approach with SC2, and I can't help but notice the C&C
elements that have found its way into the game. SC1 was about micro'ing small units and constructing your heavy units to deal the maximum splash damage to opposing units, and allowing a half squadron of special units(vultures, DT, Lurker) to outmaneuver large enemy armies to deal a crucial blow to their resources.
With SC2, all I see are multiple "all-purpose" units that just singlehandedly kick so much @$$, that Blizzard needed to design another unit to counter the previous imba unit. Maybe this was the formula they had with SC1, but this simply does not seem to enrich the gameplay for a sequel.

They shouldn't have labeled this as SC2, as it would generate much expectations for this game to live up to. Maybe something like "Starcraft: (insert any corny sequel line here)". Well, all I have to say is, if you want to enjoy this game, don't treat it as "Starcraft 2". It's a completely different game than the original Starcraft, and gamers shouldn't get upset if the cues aren't completely faithful to the first series. Props for Blizzard for not making this multi-platform. I would've shot myself if I found out SC2 was going to be released on the XBox360. UnrealIII definitely screwed themselves by making that game available to all consoles.


Have you watched completly different videos than what I've seen? I have seen Immortals that completly rip heavy weapons like tanks to pieces but get screwed over by simple marines/reavers.

I've seen the new zealots completly dominate the the other basic units while getting slaughtered by the siege tanks.

I've seen protoss new air units of which one is only good against capital ships and the other only good against lesser ships.

So far it seems like they're making every unit in SC2 highly specialised (atleast protoss) and being very hard counters against eachother.
Bully-Cdn
Profile Joined May 2007
Peru58 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-05-20 15:13:47
May 20 2007 15:11 GMT
#65
hey guys i justed checked sclegacy and was impressed with their coverage, didnt know where to post this.. pretty up to date including this:

One of the most surprising revelations in the team's presentation was that StarCraft II will have the same number of units as the original game. That means that for every new unit added to a sides' army, one had to come out. Apparently the team did this for both gameplay and design reasons. Limiting the number of units forced the team to focus on exactly what each unit was expected to do and why it should be there. There were some iconic units like the Zealots, Marines and Zerglings that no one could imagine the game without, but there were other calls that were apparently quite painful to make. Pardo seems to feel that forcing the team to make these painful choices will result in a better game by avoiding extraneous units that never get used.


from gamespy article.. anyways check http://www.sclegacy.com for those who havent seen it..
The Trap
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19130 Posts
May 20 2007 15:11 GMT
#66
On May 21 2007 00:04 Hot_Bid wrote:
i don't think there are any all purpose units other than that mothership (which likely will almost never see competitive play if its balanced right)... they showed each unit's weaknesses in that opening vid

the immortals, stalkers, colossus, everything had a weakness


And the tanks still dropped the immortals, they arent immune to tanks or heavy fire or w/e. Add some infantry / other assorted metal as a buffer for them which is already the case in SC1 so they cant reach them as fast and theyll go down like any form of goon we've already seen.

Its just far from optimal to use tanks against immortals but theyll still do the job given 4 more seconds. And dont even get me started on what happens if you EMP the Immortals while they are under tank fire.

It's all relative, and as such, it's all pretty damn good.
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Zironic
Profile Joined May 2007
Sweden341 Posts
May 20 2007 15:14 GMT
#67
Personally I'm quite impressed by how specialised the new units seem to be, doesn't seem to be any real all purpose units like the hydralisks/dragoons anymore.
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
May 20 2007 15:19 GMT
#68
On May 21 2007 00:14 Zironic wrote:
Personally I'm quite impressed by how specialised the new units seem to be, doesn't seem to be any real all purpose units like the hydralisks/dragoons anymore.

just because they don't show these units don't mean they aren't there

there are a ton of units they haven't shown us yet, obviously they're going to show the ones with special abilities in the trailer, nobody wants to see a generic hydralisk
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
nagash
Profile Joined May 2007
Australia58 Posts
May 20 2007 15:19 GMT
#69
Also keep in mind that the Immortals may have been buffed for demonstration purposes.
OhThatDang
Profile Joined August 2004
United States4685 Posts
May 20 2007 15:27 GMT
#70
On May 20 2007 12:39 Raist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2007 12:37 fusionsdf wrote:
If they had a white flash of light all over the map the moment the mothership was completed, it would make for an awesome "Oh, fuck" moment.

haha that would be really cool and scary

sort of like hearing Nuclear Launch Detected, you should be able to see the coming of a mothership from anywhere on the map


ha i like how u can see when the nukes gonna come this time >_<!
troi oi thang map nai!!!
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
May 20 2007 15:29 GMT
#71
sounds like they've been reading tl.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19130 Posts
May 20 2007 15:37 GMT
#72
On May 21 2007 00:29 oneofthem wrote:
sounds like they've been reading tl.

lmao :D

And I hope the nuke sight thingy is visible to terran only to make them more viable so you'd actually have to scout the ghost. Or just leave the dot in the middle of the animation to others tbh .
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
DN2perfectionGM
Profile Joined August 2004
United States233 Posts
May 20 2007 15:39 GMT
#73
hope it doenst get too complex like age of empire; aoe was a good game but it was too complicated, the food chain amongst the units, and i never got really into it.
JHU
Zironic
Profile Joined May 2007
Sweden341 Posts
May 20 2007 15:40 GMT
#74
On May 21 2007 00:37 Nyovne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2007 00:29 oneofthem wrote:
sounds like they've been reading tl.

lmao :D

And I hope the nuke sight thingy is visible to terran only to make them more viable so you'd actually have to scout the ghost. Or just leave the dot in the middle of the animation to others tbh .


I have fond memories of finding a red dot in by base and thinking "Shit, I need a decloaker here fast or I'm dead".
red.venom
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4651 Posts
May 20 2007 15:40 GMT
#75
Ive heard people refer to the Starcraft gameplay recently as a system of "soft counters." Which I think is generally because games post-SC have used even harder hard counters, being that sometimes there are units that are almost invincible vs other units. Whereas in SC macro was more important than just fielding the correct units as with the right numbers anything can be viable(Hence macro specific strategies like mass hydra in the earlier days).

These articles alleviated most any fears I have about SC2, particularly by them showing a great deal of understanding about how WC3 had such an uneventful early game and how differences in player skill in that game are like shades of grey.
Broom
Zironic
Profile Joined May 2007
Sweden341 Posts
May 20 2007 15:45 GMT
#76
From playing the WC3 ladder I had many experiances where I've lost to players I know played alot worse then me simply because their unit combination defeated by unit combination and WC3 is always decided by one decisive battle, I don't think this problem will stay in SC2 since single battles no longer have the same importance.
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19130 Posts
May 20 2007 15:49 GMT
#77
On May 21 2007 00:45 Zironic wrote:
From playing the WC3 ladder I had many experiances where I've lost to players I know played alot worse then me simply because their unit combination defeated by unit combination and WC3 is always decided by one decisive battle, I don't think this problem will stay in SC2 since single battles no longer have the same importance.

I share in your prayers m8, but the interviews stemmed me a hopefull person yes?!

ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Chosi
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Germany1302 Posts
May 22 2007 02:03 GMT
#78
I dare to bump this thread since I think the two articles in the first post contain the most important information about sc2 that exist right now.
Someday, you’re going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I’m still around to see it.
Zironic
Profile Joined May 2007
Sweden341 Posts
May 22 2007 02:07 GMT
#79
On May 22 2007 11:03 Chosi wrote:
I dare to bump this thread since I think the two articles in the first post contain the most important information about sc2 that exist right now.


Yup
HiddenTalent
Profile Joined July 2005
United States246 Posts
May 22 2007 02:14 GMT
#80
Think about how cool the UMS maps could be with the graphics and the overall complexity of the game.
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 45m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 165
JuggernautJason95
Livibee 61
LaughNgamez 2
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 16349
Dewaltoss 140
soO 39
NaDa 10
Dota 2
Nina41
League of Legends
Trikslyr84
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1032
Foxcn818
flusha436
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0180
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby4503
Liquid`Hasu485
Khaldor134
Other Games
summit1g4588
FrodaN1267
shahzam230
Sick73
NightEnD65
Mew2King63
ZombieGrub41
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV102
StarCraft 2
angryscii 33
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 91
• StrangeGG 74
• davetesta6
• Reevou 5
• musti20045 4
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 45
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4125
• TFBlade1031
Other Games
• imaqtpie1817
• Scarra753
• Shiphtur300
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 45m
OSC
2h 45m
Replay Cast
12h 45m
Road to EWC
17h 45m
Replay Cast
1d 12h
SC Evo League
1d 14h
Road to EWC
1d 17h
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP
4 days
NightMare vs Wayne
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Cure vs Zoun
Solar vs Creator
The PondCast
5 days
Online Event
5 days
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
GSL Code S
6 days
GuMiho vs Bunny
ByuN vs SHIN
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.