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On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
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On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
Without getting super specific about where he would fall atm, it's at least clear that his lotv results bring him into consideration for all these talks. Or at least they should, he definitely gets a rather low amount of hype for what he has done in lotv.
Just to put it into stats :>
14 top4 or better in 23 tournaments
Out of these 14 he won three and got 2nd in four. Only Dark is somewhat close to this but even there stats is just more consistent and has higher peaks
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Best player of the expansion , not of all time
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On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
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France2063 Posts
On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status. GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go. Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT. The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Thanks for this.
I know that Stats is often underrated but it's not a reason to overrate him. Winning 3 tournaments doesn't make you a contender for GOAT.
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On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
I am not sure if Zest really is the greater player of the two, yes he won more titles (only 2 though) but that's about it really. Stats has more 2nd places, more ro4 finishes and all of that in weekenders and starleagues. Both were good proleague players. If we don't value current results less due to all the retirements i think stats is definitely in the consideration of "best toss ever" and therefore also in the talks about being one of the greatest players ever in general (again, without the need to be specific where he would fall in detail)
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On April 17 2018 03:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is. I am not sure if Zest really is the greater player of the two, yes he won more titles (only 2 though) but that's about it really. Stats has more 2nd places, more ro4 finishes and all of that in weekenders and starleagues. Both were good proleague players. If we don't value current results less due to all the retirements i think stats is definitely in the consideration of "best toss ever" and therefore also in the talks about being one of the greatest players ever in general (again, without the need to be specific where he would fall in detail)
2 titles is a lot, that's half of Stats's current titles. Tbh I wouldn't count Zest's HSC as a "real" title but neither would I count Stats's Cross Finals so they're still 2 titles apart. And Zest was a way better Proleague player, wasn't he? I remember way more of Zest in the Proleague days, at least, Stats was kind of an afterthought for KT.
As for non-champion placements, I generally don't consider those for anything but tiebreakers since that's where it starts getting complicated and I am lazy. As far as I am concerned, Zest still holds a decisive edge over Stats in the "greatest Protoss" discussion, but in that context I also feel obligated to bring up MC and Parting.
But in the context of GOAT it's kind of a moot point isn't it? I don't think even Olli is seriously arguing that Zest is in the running for GOAT. That being the case, Stats, a guy who is at most on par with Zest, is also not in the running. Granted, Stats is probably somewhere on the list of "greatest players" but GOAT is a singular noun; there can only ever be one. Either you are The Greatest Ever or you aren't. Mvp, Life, Inno, there exists a legitimate argument for all of these guys that they are in fact The Greatest Ever. Not so for Stats.
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I mean sure if one only considers titles and the rest is more of an afterthought then there is nothing to argue about, i think that's kinda flawed though. Especially if one player completely outshines the other in these high place finishes.
Their proleague records are quite similar overall, zest with 101–65 and stats with 94–51 (this includes playoffs).
MC surely could be in the running, personally i think Parting's claim is rather weak with no starleague wins and in general rather poor starleague performance. (also the titles he won were mostly low lvl competitions in comparison).
sOs or Rain have better claims imo.
edit: yeah sure stats isn't in the running for greatest ever yet we definitely agree on that. I just think it's easier to look at the top X (maybe 10?) in general to contextualize these top contenders. So Stats as one of the greatest players ever even if it's obviously not enough for the title of the goat.
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On April 17 2018 04:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I mean sure if one only considers titles and the rest is more of an afterthought then there is nothing to argue about, i think that's kinda flawed though. Especially if one player completely outshines the other in these high place finishes.
Their proleague records are quite similar overall, zest with 101–65 and stats with 94–51 (this includes playoffs).
MC surely could be in the running, personally i think Parting's claim is rather weak with no starleague wins and in general rather poor starleague performance. (also the titles he won were mostly low lvl competitions in comparison).
sOs or Rain have better claims imo.
edit: yeah sure stats isn't in the running for greatest ever yet we definitely agree on that. I just think it's easier to look at the top X (maybe 10?) in general to contextualize these top contenders. So Stats as one of the greatest players ever even if it's obviously not enough for the title of the goat.
Ok, that's fair enough. Sounds like we're largely in agreement. I didn't realize Stats was so close to Zest in Proleague, though I do recall one of the mods (Olli?) making a decent argument being made for why playoffs were not included in Proleague stats (something about uneven representation/inflating wins?), in which case Zest > Stats.
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I mean for the official proleague standings playoffs aren't counted because it's sorted by wins only and players on playoff teams get more chances to play and therefore win. In the case of Zest and Stats this isn't important because they both were on the same team anyway.
If one simply tries to look at proleague stats of two players there surely are a lot of things to possibly consider, a good read on that: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/532890-the-nature-of-proleague-entries (in the context of bw players, but the reasoning applies to sc2 as well ofc).
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On April 17 2018 04:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:I mean for the official proleague standings playoffs aren't counted because it's sorted by wins only and players on playoff teams get more chances to play and therefore win. In the case of Zest and Stats this isn't important because they both were on the same team anyway. If one simply tries to look at proleague stats of two players there surely are a lot of things to possibly consider, a good read on that: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/532890-the-nature-of-proleague-entries (in the context of bw players, but the reasoning applies to sc2 as well ofc).
It was a very good read.
Damn I miss Proleague 
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On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status. GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go. Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT. The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Sadly I think in a scene with no teams except Jin Air and barely 30 professional players left it's not possible to become GOAT anymore.
The achievements just aren't as impressive anymore as they were a few years before and with every year it gets less and less impressive.
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Despite him being perhaps my favourite player, he's certainly not GOAT material just yet. Let's bare in mind he's never won a premier tournament outside of Korea, I'd still say he has to win at least an IEM, WCS or another GSL before you put him into best protoss of all time running
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On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status. GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go. Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT. The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Thanks for the information.
Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV?
That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all.
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On April 17 2018 06:32 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status. GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go. Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT. The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is. Thanks for the information. Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV? That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all.
Stats is easily the best Korean Protoss of LotV, as well as the best Protoss of LotV and arguably the best player of LotV. He's been incredibly consistent since 2016. There are only a few other people who might be better in LotV.
Dark dominated nearly all of 2016 and has also been really consistent throughout LotV. Inno dominated 2017 and holds highest trophy count in LotV. Rogue had insane peak (or peaks?) and won Blizzcon and Katowice back to back.
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On April 17 2018 06:41 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 06:32 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status. GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go. Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT. The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is. Thanks for the information. Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV? That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all. Stats is easily the best Korean Protoss of LotV, as well as the best Protoss of LotV and inarguably the best player of LotV.
indeed
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On April 17 2018 06:44 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 06:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 17 2018 06:32 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 17 2018 03:36 pvsnp wrote:On April 17 2018 00:59 ThunderJunk wrote:On April 14 2018 09:28 Fango wrote:On April 13 2018 01:41 pvsnp wrote:On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote:
Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular? When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........ There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really. Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped. There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant". Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT? No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status. GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go. Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT. The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is. Thanks for the information. Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV? That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all. Stats is easily the best Korean Protoss of LotV, as well as the best Protoss of LotV and inarguably the best player of LotV. indeed
You didn't let me finish
Stats has the best consistency, but Dark, Inno and Rogue have a fair claim on the title of "best player in LotV" too.
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On April 13 2018 01:34 RampancyTW wrote:
People thinking that Dark threw aren't really watching the games very critically imo.
Game 5 he produces a lot of roaches to hold off aggression/counter-attack, but Stats doesn't let him get efficient trades when Dark goes to supply dump, forcing Dark to continue to produce units. He gets locked into roach tech for too long and just doesn't have the late-game army efficiency to deal with Stats' final comp.
Game 6, he tries to go with a low-tech heavy aggression style (which WORKS), but at the cost of his economy. Even with his big "lead" in bases, he was even on workers, way behind on tech, and Stats' phenomenal warp prism/archon harrass kept Dark from ever comfortably teching up, allowing Stats to catch back up on eco and cement the tech lead. His activity on the map, while costing him a few careless immortals, allowed him to sniff out Dark's counter-attacks and continue to trade efficiently overall while progressing towards his late-game army.
Game 7, more of the same here overall. Goes for an effective roach burrow attack that gets dealt with, but gets stuck on roach tech for too long while being forced to produce units to hold off Stats' position on the map. Stats slowly pushes forward with psi storms and immortals to keep the pressure up until he gets enough defense back home to regroup his last wave of immortals. He pushes, and BARELY manages to tilt the battle in his favor with great positioning and spell usage.
Just a fantastic technical takedown from Stats in those last 3 games. Calm, steady play while he leveraged his advantages to build up to a killing blow.
I just watched this series and I think you're dead on correct with your assessment.
Another thing to note for game 7 is that along side that main battle they were focused on that Stats barely won, if you watch the minimap you can see that Stats was also attacking Dark's newest expansion and the hatchery started flashing red and he started losing more workers right before he gg'd so had he continued he would have been down 10 workers and on basically even bases against a Protoss with a better army, better tech and better economy. The observer never showed that attack because of how close the main battle and that's likely why Tasteless and Artosis also missed it. Likewise for game 6, Stats was hitting him on 3 different fronts when he tapped out, they showed Stats attacking two different expansions and Dark's main at the same time. He was about to lose most of his income and he was already behind in army.
I was weirded out by both of those games at first too but after watching the minimap and paying much close attention it became clear to me why Dark gged in both games.
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EPT
