After three days of games, only Classic, Dark, herO, and Stats remained to contend for the GSL Super Tournament championship.
Semifinals recap
Match 1: Classic 1 – 3 Dark
Game 1: Classic opened the series with a proxy stargate on Acid Plant. A diligent scout from Dark saw him take minimal initial damage. Classic’s follow up was a massive gateway attack off two bases, but Dark got enough roaches and queens in time to hold. A deadly counterattack followed soon after.
Game 2: It was Dark who chose to be the aggressor on Neon Violet Square, with a proxy hatchery into ravager bust. Classic quickly lost control of the natural and, despite a valiant last stand in his main, could not hold on.
Game 3: Backwater didn’t see much action for most of the early game. Classic, after opening with a standard stargate into archon drop, began pressuring Dark with zealots at the fourth base and the prism in the main. He cancelled Dark's attempted fourth base repeatedly and found himself taking his own even earlier then the Zerg. Dark tried for a counterattack with hydras and lurkers, but had his army destroyed by storms. Nowhere near close to hive, Dark played his last card—a big mutalisk switch. Unfortunately for him, Classic was already beginning his sky transition and already had three stargates up. Dark found some good harassment and added in corruptors, but it was only a matter of time before Classic's vastly superior army won him the game once he had stabilized enough to attack.
Game 4: Classic decided to gamble his tournament life on a 2-base charge all-in on Eastwatch. Unfortunately for him, Dark, despite never scouting the build, opened with a 2-base lair build for roach speed. Classic's attack was easily deflected and the Protoss found himself on two bases, with a subpar probe count and only then resumed gas mining. Dark built up a little longer before dealing the killing blow with a roach/ravager attack.
Match 2: herO 1 – 3 Stats
Game 1: Neon Violet Square saw both players sit back until the midgame. Stats chose to go for robotics tech and immortals while herO opted for blink. Despite some good moves herO’s tech didn’t pay off, allowing Stats to amass and push across the map with immortals and archons and zealots. Stats hit the main with a warp prism and the third with his main army, spreading herO a bit too thin and taking the first game.
Game 2: Both players decided to open with the currently popular 4gate build. Stats had the better army movements and was able to catch herO’s units and pylons to control the map. With his momentum, Stats contained herO while expanding behind it. Forced to act, herO got his army trapped by forcefields and conceded.
Game 3: Both Protoss decided to return to the more technical midgame on Eastwatch. herO was the first to put on some pressure, catching a few of Stats’ units outside the natural ramp. Smelling blood, herO switched gears into a mass glaive attack that was too strong for Stats to handle.
Game 4: Both players opened with stargate tech on Acid Plant. Despite taking some damage from herO's oracle, Stats steadily returned the favor with his phoenix. herO got blink and desperately tried to keep up with the harass, but kept bleeding more units. In desperation herO turned to a dark shrine but had his DTs caught out of position by the phoenix. Stats then pushed across the map to take the series.
Grand Finals recap
Dark 3 – 4 Stats
Game 1: Dark chose to go for a roach ravager composition and attempted to pressure Stats’ fourth base on Neon Violet Square after standard openings from both with not much action. Stats' patient defense with psionic storm let him defend his fourth base with barely any losses. Once he maxed out, with a mothership added to his army, there was nothing Dark's dated roach/ravager army could do to stop him.
Game 2: Acid Plant saw both players forgo aggression in favor of economy. Stats tried to hit Dark with a zealot/archon attack, but Dark was expertly prepared, denying the Protoss a foothold in his main and deflecting any attacks on his third. Now ahead in supply, Dark counterattacked Stats for a quick win.
Game 3: Things heated up on Backwater as Dark decided to go for a proxy hatchery ravager rush. Despite scouting it, Stats was unable to prevent the slow crawl of queens, spores and ravagers from smashing down his walls and hitting his natural, so he decided to put Dark all-in by destroying his economy with oracles. Stats had to use his own probes in the defense though, and even they were not enough to help him defeat Dark's army. When the dust settled, a single ravager was left to decide the game in Dark's favor.
Game 4: The game on Catalyst normalized after some early expansion-blocking shenanigans from both players. Stats once again did an archon drop while expanding, but Dark not only denied the third but also completely deflected the pressure. While Stats was busy microing Dark went for the throat, busting into the natural of Stats with banelings and dealing crippling economic damage, forcing Stats to tap out.
Game 5: Despite light harass on Blackpink, both players were mostly free to macro up to their lategame compositions. Stats was the first to try and push out with archons, immortals and high templar, but didn't get much done with it. A drop from Stats delayed the Zerg long enough for him to complete his carrier transition, allowing him to win the crucial engagement. He forced the GG from Dark soon after.
Game 6: Stats again fell back on his archon drop opening on Eastwatch. Things looked similar to the second game, with the drop doing little damage and Dark cancelling the Protoss third with a ling flood. Stats decided to try an attack, but a snipe of two immortals in the middle of the map forced him to retreat. All the momentum was on Dark's side, but he threw it away by bashing his head against Stats' defensive wall with ling/bane attacks, getting progressively worse trades against storms, until Stats' army was too big and strong to contest. With no real answer to Stats’ deathball, still sitting on lair tech himself, Dark tapped out at 190 supply.
Game 7: With everything on the line, Darkness Sanctuary began relatively calmly, with only light harass coming from Stats. He then attempted a double archon drop to decide his tournament fate. Despite doing good damage, Stats was not able to finish Dark off and had to retreat. At home, he was taking his fourth base and producing probes. Dark tried to mix it up via some burrowed roach tactics but, despite reducing Stats’ worker numbers to 48, he wasn’t able to force the Protoss back across the map. Stats, with an army of templar, immortals and archons, kept trading with Dark, cost efficiently whittling down the army. Dark attempted a surprise muta switch but it wasn't enough to hold on and he was forced to concede the GSL Super Tournament to Stats.
Tbh Stats might be one of the most clutch players of all time. He doesn't dominate series like many of the best protoss that came before but when the dust settles he's the last man standing, the ultimate survivor. What an insanely strong mentality.
On April 10 2018 01:20 brickrd wrote: stats right now reminds me of Rain's peak in hots
They are similar in that they aren't aggressive protosses. But I think Rain's defense was a lot stronger, while Stats has better counter harass. Rain was really dominant in PVZ and PVT but sucked at PVP. Stats is more balanced across matchups but not as dominant in any of them. Not to mention stats is clutch as hell when playing offline elimination playoff games. It always seemed to me that Rain never loses late game. Stats loses quite a few of them but he mixes in more aggressive builds than Rain did.
On April 10 2018 01:17 Z3nith wrote: Tbh Stats might be one of the most clutch players of all time. He doesn't dominate series like many of the best protoss that came before but when the dust settles he's the last man standing, the ultimate survivor. What an insanely strong mentality.
It helps when he's playing opponents known for poor mentality.
On April 10 2018 01:20 brickrd wrote: stats right now reminds me of Rain's peak in hots
They are similar in that they aren't aggressive protosses. But I think Rain's defense was a lot stronger, while Stats has better counter harass. Rain was really dominant in PVZ and PVT but sucked at PVP. Stats is more balanced across matchups but not as dominant in any of them. Not to mention stats is clutch as hell when playing offline elimination playoff games. It always seemed to me that Rain never loses late game. Stats loses quite a few of them but he mixes in more aggressive builds than Rain did.
true, but i think a lot of that is just how LOTV is designed rather than playstyle
On April 10 2018 01:20 brickrd wrote: stats right now reminds me of Rain's peak in hots
They are similar in that they aren't aggressive protosses. But I think Rain's defense was a lot stronger, while Stats has better counter harass. Rain was really dominant in PVZ and PVT but sucked at PVP. Stats is more balanced across matchups but not as dominant in any of them. Not to mention stats is clutch as hell when playing offline elimination playoff games. It always seemed to me that Rain never loses late game. Stats loses quite a few of them but he mixes in more aggressive builds than Rain did.
true, but i think a lot of that is just how LOTV is designed rather than playstyle
On April 10 2018 01:20 brickrd wrote: stats right now reminds me of Rain's peak in hots
They are similar in that they aren't aggressive protosses. But I think Rain's defense was a lot stronger, while Stats has better counter harass. Rain was really dominant in PVZ and PVT but sucked at PVP. Stats is more balanced across matchups but not as dominant in any of them. Not to mention stats is clutch as hell when playing offline elimination playoff games. It always seemed to me that Rain never loses late game. Stats loses quite a few of them but he mixes in more aggressive builds than Rain did.
I actually expected herO to take this tournament because it is his best format where he is almost unbeatable. But Stats is The Toss in the LotV era no doubt. I am so excited for this guy! Probably the most balanced pro-player now. I still cannot believe how damn strong and scary is Classic, but when both of them face top zerg players, Stats is just so on top on everything. Winning the Super Tournament really deletes any bad impressions from losing the Code S final. GG for both finalist. Dark is still in my heart no matter if he will remain the kong finalist or not.
On April 10 2018 06:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: If you are a kong because you only win vs kongs we might get a situation where everyone is a kong at the end. I am fine with that
Well, I called Stats a half-Kong to prevent exactly that. He defeats full Kongs but loses to non-Kongs, so those who defeat him aren't dragged into a chain of recursion.
One degree removed from Kong = half-Kong. Two degrees is out of Kong territory entirely.
On April 10 2018 01:20 brickrd wrote: stats right now reminds me of Rain's peak in hots
They are similar in that they aren't aggressive protosses. But I think Rain's defense was a lot stronger, while Stats has better counter harass. Rain was really dominant in PVZ and PVT but sucked at PVP. Stats is more balanced across matchups but not as dominant in any of them. Not to mention stats is clutch as hell when playing offline elimination playoff games. It always seemed to me that Rain never loses late game. Stats loses quite a few of them but he mixes in more aggressive builds than Rain did.
Rain wasn't bad in PvP at all
Wasn't one of Rain's claims to fame "solving" PvP? I didn't understand PvP at the time but people kept talking about that.
Definitely think they're very different playstyles as discussed, was a huge Rain fan and do not at all get the same vibe from Stats. Stats and Zest seem to have more similar approaches to the game, while Rain's has not resurfaced since his retirement
On April 10 2018 06:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: If you are a kong because you only win vs kongs we might get a situation where everyone is a kong at the end. I am fine with that
Well, I called Stats a half-Kong to prevent exactly that. He defeats full Kongs but loses to non-Kongs, so those who defeat him aren't dragged into a chain of recursion.
One degree removed from Kong = half-Kong. Two degrees is out of Kong territory entirely.
I mean true kongship is all about the starleagues anyway, kongs win special events like the super tournament or kespa cup. Through these lens even innovation could be a half kong
On April 10 2018 06:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: If you are a kong because you only win vs kongs we might get a situation where everyone is a kong at the end. I am fine with that
Well, I called Stats a half-Kong to prevent exactly that. He defeats full Kongs but loses to non-Kongs, so those who defeat him aren't dragged into a chain of recursion.
One degree removed from Kong = half-Kong. Two degrees is out of Kong territory entirely.
I mean true kongship is all about the starleagues anyway, kongs win special events like the super tournament or kespa cup. Through these lens even innovation could be a half kong
Then is Dark a true Kong? He's lost two starleagues and won one. Winning SSL removes him from the list, no?
And Inno definitely isnt a half-Kong under either definition of Kong, seeing as he defeated Solar and sOs (both non-Kongs) in starleagues. He also hasn't lost to anyone in the finals for years. The whole point of half-Kong is losing to non-Kongs while defeating only Kongs, and Inno doesn't fit either category.
I guess he wouldn't be one. sOs could be one, losing two gsl finals and only winning "special events"
Though the kongness in sc2 shouldn't stop at starleagues, our "special events" are a huge part of the tournament scene while that wasn't really the case in bw (where the initial definition comes from) Thankfully, this way we can still call dark a kong
On April 10 2018 07:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: I guess he wouldn't be one. sOs could be one, losing two gsl finals and only winning "special events"
Though the kongness in sc2 shouldn't stop at starleagues, our "special events" are a huge part of the tournament scene while that wasn't really the case in bw (where the initial definition comes from) Thankfully, this way we can still call dark a kong
The definition of Kong has degenerated since BW, now it's just a term we use to describe a guy who gets a lot of silvers.
On April 10 2018 01:20 brickrd wrote: stats right now reminds me of Rain's peak in hots
They are similar in that they aren't aggressive protosses. But I think Rain's defense was a lot stronger, while Stats has better counter harass. Rain was really dominant in PVZ and PVT but sucked at PVP. Stats is more balanced across matchups but not as dominant in any of them. Not to mention stats is clutch as hell when playing offline elimination playoff games. It always seemed to me that Rain never loses late game. Stats loses quite a few of them but he mixes in more aggressive builds than Rain did.
Rain wasn't bad in PvP at all
Wasn't one of Rain's claims to fame "solving" PvP? I didn't understand PvP at the time but people kept talking about that.
Definitely think they're very different playstyles as discussed, was a huge Rain fan and do not at all get the same vibe from Stats. Stats and Zest seem to have more similar approaches to the game, while Rain's has not resurfaced since his retirement
Yeah, Rain basically solved PvP in WoL by essentially figuring out the perfect composition (or at least the perfect balance between Colossi/Immortal numbers, and often his zealot count was exact as well which is crazy). I loved his WoL PvP, even in the early game, he was very, very smart.
I don't remember much of Rain's PvP in HotS anymore, other than the time he got super outplayed by Zest when Zest was at his decision-making peak. But I don't recall it being particularly bad.
There's a rite of passage to becoming a Kong, where your Kong storyline is so compelling people just decide to forget the championship you DID win. Not even Life's match-fixing is as taboo as mentioning soO's KeSPA Cup win, and soon we will forget that Dark won an SSL so we can label him the second king Kong.
On April 10 2018 09:48 Waxangel wrote: There's a rite of passage to becoming a Kong, where your Kong storyline is so compelling people just decide to forget the championship you DID win. Not even Life's match-fixing is as taboo as mentioning soO's KeSPA Cup win, and soon we will forget that Dark won an SSL so we can label him the second king Kong.
It's important to note that Dark's SSL win came from beating Stats
On April 10 2018 09:48 Waxangel wrote: There's a rite of passage to becoming a Kong, where your Kong storyline is so compelling people just decide to forget the championship you DID win. Not even Life's match-fixing is as taboo as mentioning soO's KeSPA Cup win, and soon we will forget that Dark won an SSL so we can label him the second king Kong.
It's important to note that Dark's SSL win came from beating Stats
Just like soO's Kespa Cup win came from beating Dark. The long and illustrious line stretching back to YellOw continues with its latest generation.
On April 10 2018 01:20 brickrd wrote: stats right now reminds me of Rain's peak in hots
They are similar in that they aren't aggressive protosses. But I think Rain's defense was a lot stronger, while Stats has better counter harass. Rain was really dominant in PVZ and PVT but sucked at PVP. Stats is more balanced across matchups but not as dominant in any of them. Not to mention stats is clutch as hell when playing offline elimination playoff games. It always seemed to me that Rain never loses late game. Stats loses quite a few of them but he mixes in more aggressive builds than Rain did.
Rain wasn't bad in PvP at all
Wasn't one of Rain's claims to fame "solving" PvP? I didn't understand PvP at the time but people kept talking about that.
Definitely think they're very different playstyles as discussed, was a huge Rain fan and do not at all get the same vibe from Stats. Stats and Zest seem to have more similar approaches to the game, while Rain's has not resurfaced since his retirement
Yeah, Rain basically solved PvP in WoL by essentially figuring out the perfect composition (or at least the perfect balance between Colossi/Immortal numbers, and often his zealot count was exact as well which is crazy). I loved his WoL PvP, even in the early game, he was very, very smart.
I don't remember much of Rain's PvP in HotS anymore, other than the time he got super outplayed by Zest when Zest was at his decision-making peak. But I don't recall it being particularly bad.
Rain's PvZ and PvT wr are nearly identical at around 68.5% while his PvP is "only" 61%. So it's his worst matchup, not particularly bad but worse than his contemporaries like Zest, sOs, herO, PartinG's PvP winrate at the time.
Obviously Rain uses good unit comp in all matchups. But PvP was more a volatile matchup than it is today. I'm not sure figuring out the perfect unit comp is even close to 'solving PvP'. Deceptions and micro were both more of a factor than unit comp in the matchup imo. In HotS, almost all the important playoff losses Rain had were PvPs. 2015 Blizzcon vs sOs, 2015 SSL S3 ro4 vs herO, 2015 DreamHack Open ro8 vs PartinG, 2014 IEM San Jose vs herO, 2014 GSL S3 ro8 vs Zest, 2014 GSL S1 ro4 vs Zest. Only exception during his peak (end of 2013 to 2015) was 2014 IEM Cologne ro4 loss vs Polt.
On April 10 2018 04:03 pvsnp wrote: Poor Dark, is he the true Kong now? I guess soO will be happy at least.
And if so, Stats has won all of his trophies against notorious Kongs.
Stats has never actually played in a proper finals
Just ignore the GSL last week vs Maru, the IEM Gyeonggi final vs Innovation and the IEM Katowice finals vs TY
All of which he lost. Funny.
Historically PvT is Stats' worst MU. Recently it is by far his worst MU. PvZ is his best MU historically. So it's funny he loses his worst MU and wins his best MU in finals?
Stats won it but Dark also lost the series continued Roach/Ravager/ling/bane almost every game well past the 12 min mark while Stats just went Archon drop into immortals into HT storm and Dark never adapted or wanted to tech up until it was too late especially game 6 he had stats dead to rights didn't push to win and didn't tech up let stats back in and lost just bad game sense.
Dark cracked under preassure on match point that is what cost him the title. even tho im a Dark fan. the mentally strongest player got the trophy that day. congrats to Stats!! clearls proof hat consistency pays over outright performance!
On April 10 2018 04:03 pvsnp wrote: Poor Dark, is he the true Kong now? I guess soO will be happy at least.
And if so, Stats has won all of his trophies against notorious Kongs.
Stats has never actually played in a proper finals
Just ignore the GSL last week vs Maru, the IEM Gyeonggi final vs Innovation and the IEM Katowice finals vs TY
All of which he lost. Funny.
Historically PvT is Stats' worst MU. Recently it is by far his worst MU. PvZ is his best MU historically. So it's funny he loses his worst MU and wins his best MU in finals?
Yep exactly. He's also only one of two Protoss who sport a >60% PvZ offline winrate in LotV, the other being Dear with a monstrous 71% PvZ offline winrate (easier opposition I imagine).
People thinking that Dark threw aren't really watching the games very critically imo.
Game 5 he produces a lot of roaches to hold off aggression/counter-attack, but Stats doesn't let him get efficient trades when Dark goes to supply dump, forcing Dark to continue to produce units. He gets locked into roach tech for too long and just doesn't have the late-game army efficiency to deal with Stats' final comp.
Game 6, he tries to go with a low-tech heavy aggression style (which WORKS), but at the cost of his economy. Even with his big "lead" in bases, he was even on workers, way behind on tech, and Stats' phenomenal warp prism/archon harrass kept Dark from ever comfortably teching up, allowing Stats to catch back up on eco and cement the tech lead. His activity on the map, while costing him a few careless immortals, allowed him to sniff out Dark's counter-attacks and continue to trade efficiently overall while progressing towards his late-game army.
Game 7, more of the same here overall. Goes for an effective roach burrow attack that gets dealt with, but gets stuck on roach tech for too long while being forced to produce units to hold off Stats' position on the map. Stats slowly pushes forward with psi storms and immortals to keep the pressure up until he gets enough defense back home to regroup his last wave of immortals. He pushes, and BARELY manages to tilt the battle in his favor with great positioning and spell usage.
Just a fantastic technical takedown from Stats in those last 3 games. Calm, steady play while he leveraged his advantages to build up to a killing blow.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Fair enough. Although, to be fair, Neeb winning was a bit different. Quoting results isn't my forte, but didn't he win almost every WESG? And that was the only Protoss you mentioned.
On April 13 2018 01:34 RampancyTW wrote: People thinking that Dark threw aren't really watching the games very critically imo.
Game 5 he produces a lot of roaches to hold off aggression/counter-attack, but Stats doesn't let him get efficient trades when Dark goes to supply dump, forcing Dark to continue to produce units. He gets locked into roach tech for too long and just doesn't have the late-game army efficiency to deal with Stats' final comp.
Game 6, he tries to go with a low-tech heavy aggression style (which WORKS), but at the cost of his economy. Even with his big "lead" in bases, he was even on workers, way behind on tech, and Stats' phenomenal warp prism/archon harrass kept Dark from ever comfortably teching up, allowing Stats to catch back up on eco and cement the tech lead. His activity on the map, while costing him a few careless immortals, allowed him to sniff out Dark's counter-attacks and continue to trade efficiently overall while progressing towards his late-game army.
Game 7, more of the same here overall. Goes for an effective roach burrow attack that gets dealt with, but gets stuck on roach tech for too long while being forced to produce units to hold off Stats' position on the map. Stats slowly pushes forward with psi storms and immortals to keep the pressure up until he gets enough defense back home to regroup his last wave of immortals. He pushes, and BARELY manages to tilt the battle in his favor with great positioning and spell usage.
Just a fantastic technical takedown from Stats in those last 3 games. Calm, steady play while he leveraged his advantages to build up to a killing blow.
This is a very accurate depiction of what went down. I think most people are uncomfortable with the current PvZ meta and not hating on Stats for winning.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
Without getting super specific about where he would fall atm, it's at least clear that his lotv results bring him into consideration for all these talks. Or at least they should, he definitely gets a rather low amount of hype for what he has done in lotv. Just to put it into stats :> 14 top4 or better in 23 tournaments Out of these 14 he won three and got 2nd in four. Only Dark is somewhat close to this but even there stats is just more consistent and has higher peaks
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Thanks for this.
I know that Stats is often underrated but it's not a reason to overrate him. Winning 3 tournaments doesn't make you a contender for GOAT.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
I am not sure if Zest really is the greater player of the two, yes he won more titles (only 2 though) but that's about it really. Stats has more 2nd places, more ro4 finishes and all of that in weekenders and starleagues. Both were good proleague players. If we don't value current results less due to all the retirements i think stats is definitely in the consideration of "best toss ever" and therefore also in the talks about being one of the greatest players ever in general (again, without the need to be specific where he would fall in detail)
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
I am not sure if Zest really is the greater player of the two, yes he won more titles (only 2 though) but that's about it really. Stats has more 2nd places, more ro4 finishes and all of that in weekenders and starleagues. Both were good proleague players. If we don't value current results less due to all the retirements i think stats is definitely in the consideration of "best toss ever" and therefore also in the talks about being one of the greatest players ever in general (again, without the need to be specific where he would fall in detail)
2 titles is a lot, that's half of Stats's current titles. Tbh I wouldn't count Zest's HSC as a "real" title but neither would I count Stats's Cross Finals so they're still 2 titles apart. And Zest was a way better Proleague player, wasn't he? I remember way more of Zest in the Proleague days, at least, Stats was kind of an afterthought for KT.
As for non-champion placements, I generally don't consider those for anything but tiebreakers since that's where it starts getting complicated and I am lazy. As far as I am concerned, Zest still holds a decisive edge over Stats in the "greatest Protoss" discussion, but in that context I also feel obligated to bring up MC and Parting.
But in the context of GOAT it's kind of a moot point isn't it? I don't think even Olli is seriously arguing that Zest is in the running for GOAT. That being the case, Stats, a guy who is at most on par with Zest, is also not in the running. Granted, Stats is probably somewhere on the list of "greatest players" but GOAT is a singular noun; there can only ever be one. Either you are The Greatest Ever or you aren't. Mvp, Life, Inno, there exists a legitimate argument for all of these guys that they are in fact The Greatest Ever. Not so for Stats.
I mean sure if one only considers titles and the rest is more of an afterthought then there is nothing to argue about, i think that's kinda flawed though. Especially if one player completely outshines the other in these high place finishes. Their proleague records are quite similar overall, zest with 101–65 and stats with 94–51 (this includes playoffs).
MC surely could be in the running, personally i think Parting's claim is rather weak with no starleague wins and in general rather poor starleague performance. (also the titles he won were mostly low lvl competitions in comparison). sOs or Rain have better claims imo.
edit: yeah sure stats isn't in the running for greatest ever yet we definitely agree on that. I just think it's easier to look at the top X (maybe 10?) in general to contextualize these top contenders. So Stats as one of the greatest players ever even if it's obviously not enough for the title of the goat.
On April 17 2018 04:23 The_Red_Viper wrote: I mean sure if one only considers titles and the rest is more of an afterthought then there is nothing to argue about, i think that's kinda flawed though. Especially if one player completely outshines the other in these high place finishes. Their proleague records are quite similar overall, zest with 101–65 and stats with 94–51 (this includes playoffs).
MC surely could be in the running, personally i think Parting's claim is rather weak with no starleague wins and in general rather poor starleague performance. (also the titles he won were mostly low lvl competitions in comparison). sOs or Rain have better claims imo.
edit: yeah sure stats isn't in the running for greatest ever yet we definitely agree on that. I just think it's easier to look at the top X (maybe 10?) in general to contextualize these top contenders. So Stats as one of the greatest players ever even if it's obviously not enough for the title of the goat.
Ok, that's fair enough. Sounds like we're largely in agreement. I didn't realize Stats was so close to Zest in Proleague, though I do recall one of the mods (Olli?) making a decent argument being made for why playoffs were not included in Proleague stats (something about uneven representation/inflating wins?), in which case Zest > Stats.
I mean for the official proleague standings playoffs aren't counted because it's sorted by wins only and players on playoff teams get more chances to play and therefore win. In the case of Zest and Stats this isn't important because they both were on the same team anyway. If one simply tries to look at proleague stats of two players there surely are a lot of things to possibly consider, a good read on that: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/532890-the-nature-of-proleague-entries (in the context of bw players, but the reasoning applies to sc2 as well ofc).
On April 17 2018 04:45 The_Red_Viper wrote: I mean for the official proleague standings playoffs aren't counted because it's sorted by wins only and players on playoff teams get more chances to play and therefore win. In the case of Zest and Stats this isn't important because they both were on the same team anyway. If one simply tries to look at proleague stats of two players there surely are a lot of things to possibly consider, a good read on that: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/532890-the-nature-of-proleague-entries (in the context of bw players, but the reasoning applies to sc2 as well ofc).
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Sadly I think in a scene with no teams except Jin Air and barely 30 professional players left it's not possible to become GOAT anymore. The achievements just aren't as impressive anymore as they were a few years before and with every year it gets less and less impressive.
Despite him being perhaps my favourite player, he's certainly not GOAT material just yet. Let's bare in mind he's never won a premier tournament outside of Korea, I'd still say he has to win at least an IEM, WCS or another GSL before you put him into best protoss of all time running
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Thanks for the information.
Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV?
That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Thanks for the information.
Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV?
That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all.
Stats is easily the best Korean Protoss of LotV, as well as the best Protoss of LotV and arguably the best player of LotV. He's been incredibly consistent since 2016. There are only a few other people who might be better in LotV.
Dark dominated nearly all of 2016 and has also been really consistent throughout LotV. Inno dominated 2017 and holds highest trophy count in LotV. Rogue had insane peak (or peaks?) and won Blizzcon and Katowice back to back.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Thanks for the information.
Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV?
That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all.
Stats is easily the best Korean Protoss of LotV, as well as the best Protoss of LotV and inarguably the best player of LotV.
On April 12 2018 09:13 ThunderJunk wrote: Whenever Stats wins, no the forums are super quiet.
When Innovation wins, it's all, "GOAT, oh my gawd!"
But not with Stats.. even though he's a monstrously good player. What's wrong with the best player in the world being a Protoss? Seriously
Could it be that.......Stats just isn't as popular?
When Neeb wins stuff it's all "Greatest foreigner oh my gawd!" Likewise for Scarlett. When Inno wins, his fans are happy. When Neeb wins, his fans are happy. When Stats wins his fans are happy. When Scarlett........
There's no law that says each of them must have an equal number of fans on the forums, and it sounds quite petty to suggest that people have a problem with Stats or Protoss. Oh no, my favorite player doesn't get as many cheers as Player X! The horror! What's wrong with the forums? Seriously
You should be glad that Stats isn't a foreigner, else the forums being "super quiet" would be replaced by people rushing out of the woodwork to list all the extenuating factors and unfair advantages and rationalizations for him winning (which applies to every champion, people just seem to notice more with foreigners). Stats has it pretty good, really.
Also there's the fact that there's nothing particulary noteworthy about when Stats wins. He's just a solid and consistant player all round. When a "lesser" player wins it's easy to say they just got lucky or some other factor played a role. When an obviously OP race wins it's easy to complain (toss being imba certainly doesn't apply to PvZ right now). Or when a cheesy player wins, or a player running for GOAT etc. Or as you said a popular player can win and become overhyped.
There's not much to say about Stats winning here other than "already most consistant protoss shows he's even more consistant".
Right! So the point I'm trying to get at is exactly that if Stats is the most consistent player, with multiple big title wins, does that not make him the GOAT?
No. Stats is nowhere near GOAT status.
GOAT means your achievements are greater than those of ALL other players. Just a cursory glance at trophy counts tells us that Stats has won 4 trophies, with 2 Starleagues. Compared to guys like Inno (8 trophies w/ 4 Starleagues), or Mvp (9 trophies w/ 3 Starleagues), or Life (10 trophies w/ 2 Starleagues), Stats has quite a long way to go.
Stats is a great player and very consistent but there is a world of difference between Great and Greatest. The bar for GOAT is ridiculously high and Stats is barely halfway there. If Stats continues at his current pace he needs at least another 2 years before he can even be considered a possibility for GOAT.
The current candidates for GOAT have years and years of extra experience compared to Stats, who didn't start winning until LotV came out. Zest, a guy who has barely done anything for the past two years, is still closer to being GOAT than Stats is.
Thanks for the information.
Would it be a more fair call to consider Stats the best Korean Protoss of LotV?
That is in itself deserving of incredible hype! Players keep getting better, and the skill cap keeps rising, and Stats stands proudly above them all.
Stats is easily the best Korean Protoss of LotV, as well as the best Protoss of LotV and inarguably the best player of LotV.
indeed
You didn't let me finish
Stats has the best consistency, but Dark, Inno and Rogue have a fair claim on the title of "best player in LotV" too.
On April 13 2018 01:34 RampancyTW wrote: People thinking that Dark threw aren't really watching the games very critically imo.
Game 5 he produces a lot of roaches to hold off aggression/counter-attack, but Stats doesn't let him get efficient trades when Dark goes to supply dump, forcing Dark to continue to produce units. He gets locked into roach tech for too long and just doesn't have the late-game army efficiency to deal with Stats' final comp.
Game 6, he tries to go with a low-tech heavy aggression style (which WORKS), but at the cost of his economy. Even with his big "lead" in bases, he was even on workers, way behind on tech, and Stats' phenomenal warp prism/archon harrass kept Dark from ever comfortably teching up, allowing Stats to catch back up on eco and cement the tech lead. His activity on the map, while costing him a few careless immortals, allowed him to sniff out Dark's counter-attacks and continue to trade efficiently overall while progressing towards his late-game army.
Game 7, more of the same here overall. Goes for an effective roach burrow attack that gets dealt with, but gets stuck on roach tech for too long while being forced to produce units to hold off Stats' position on the map. Stats slowly pushes forward with psi storms and immortals to keep the pressure up until he gets enough defense back home to regroup his last wave of immortals. He pushes, and BARELY manages to tilt the battle in his favor with great positioning and spell usage.
Just a fantastic technical takedown from Stats in those last 3 games. Calm, steady play while he leveraged his advantages to build up to a killing blow.
I just watched this series and I think you're dead on correct with your assessment.
Another thing to note for game 7 is that along side that main battle they were focused on that Stats barely won, if you watch the minimap you can see that Stats was also attacking Dark's newest expansion and the hatchery started flashing red and he started losing more workers right before he gg'd so had he continued he would have been down 10 workers and on basically even bases against a Protoss with a better army, better tech and better economy. The observer never showed that attack because of how close the main battle and that's likely why Tasteless and Artosis also missed it. Likewise for game 6, Stats was hitting him on 3 different fronts when he tapped out, they showed Stats attacking two different expansions and Dark's main at the same time. He was about to lose most of his income and he was already behind in army.
I was weirded out by both of those games at first too but after watching the minimap and paying much close attention it became clear to me why Dark gged in both games.
EPT
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Classic, 
Classic 1 – 3 
Dark
