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Blizzard Battle.Net Post
In recent weeks, we've been discussing a change to the Reaper, and we recently implemented a balance update in all regions to put the following change into effect. Thank you for all your feedback over the recent weeks and months in pushing this change forward, and we look forward to discussing further changes that we may explore in the weeks to come.
Terran
Reaper
KD8 Charge damage reduced from 10 to 5.
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, take a look through some of the recent Community Feedback Updates for more information!
As always, we appreciate all the feedback we’ve received from the community. Your feedback and playtesting helped shape this update, and we hope you’ll continue to participate in future balance discussions. Until next time, we hope you enjoy this change!
source:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20950472/legacy-of-the-void-balance-update-july-2017-7-31-2017
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so i guess when several Reapers get cornered and surrounded by the zerglings of a smart Zerg player with good micro
then using several KD8 charges as a last-chance desperation move will kill a lot less zerglings.
other than that... do KD8 charges do much except damage larva?
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Technically makes damaging creep tumors a bit harder, but.. in critical mass that doesn't matter.
I feel like the ability just doesn't belong and should be removed regardless. The goal should be giving the reaper some form of tickle harass without snowballing, or giving it something for lategame use.
Thing is, SC2 has so much dependence on air units and avoiding terrain, that there's no reason to make the reaper a lategame scout unit. You can just scan, or drop, etc.
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Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ.
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Swarm host is the obvious problem.
PvZ balance should be looked into, especially at lower levels I think.
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Remove the knockback, thats the biggest issue. Not damage. They'll use 2 grenades instead of one then. With high amount of reapers they can almost non stop spam grenades.
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On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ.
Mass oracle is broken in PvZ?
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On August 03 2017 03:19 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ. Mass oracle is broken in PvZ?
dude didn't you see it won a few games recently AND has did it vs elazer!!! shut it all down.
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I would have liked some more communication before going live with the change. The nerf definitely isn't enough to fix TvT.
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Good patch. 3 rax reaper will be probably dead with this change.
Poor Byun.
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On August 03 2017 03:23 Meepman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 03:19 phodacbiet wrote:On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ. Mass oracle is broken in PvZ? dude didn't you see it won a few games recently AND has did it vs elazer!!! shut it all down.
New strategy that has not been figured out yet. Oh noes! Let's see what happens for a little while longer.
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Just remove the grenade, or at least the knockback effect...
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On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ.
LOL
are you talking about solar vs classic? that game where solar sat on lair tech for 15 minutes and didnt make a single infestor vs clumped, low range air units?
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If this Reaper nerf results in Terran being unable to deal with mass zerglings in the TvZ early//mid game then please buff the Hellion when its in Hellion-form ... in some way.
On August 03 2017 04:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Just remove the grenade, or at least the knockback effect...
i'd prefer it if they completely redesigned the Reaper. However, they probably don't have the resources for that. Other than the Reaper being a clusterfuck of a unit the game is in a good place and very close to balanced. As a result, we get these very small stat tweaks.
I think Terran Air is still slightly too strong and Terran Ground is slightly too weak, but that is such a nit-picky thing i don't think it'll ever get 100% perfectly tuned the way i like it. Anyhow, they nerfed Terran air by like 1% by increasing the supply cost of the Raven. So that was good.
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no balance topic is worth talking about when this skin exists in the game, with NO OPTION TO DISABLE
the new bane skin is pay to win
blizzard release a nearly unrecognizable purple baneling skin with no way of turning it off to every player in the world willing to pay for it
and here we are arguing over reapers still (not a unit or trend that is shifting the meta, not a unit or trend that is leading to terrans even having above 55% winrate, not a unit or trend that is unbeatable)
get ur head out of ur ass TL and go complain on the blizzard forum where they actually read feedback. im sure with dayvie gone those monkies no longer receive TL feedback
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at first reading the reaper nerf feels ok but when having a critical mass of reapers i dont know if it will be enough. i guess we will have to wait and see.
i wish the balance team would talk about how harras is way too powerful. oracles, banshees, mines and probably other units can deal game ending damage with just one or a few o those units. toning down the harras part of the game could be helpful to have more interesting matchs. yesterday i was watching Artosis streaming BW and 4 or 5 wraith were attacking his mineral line... yea he was behind after that but he could play a decent match until he died, in sc2 you practically die if one oracle/banshee/mine in your mineral line go unnoticed :/
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On August 03 2017 04:05 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ. LOL are you talking about solar vs classic? that game where solar sat on lair tech for 15 minutes and didnt make a single infestor vs clumped, low range air units?
Mass oracle has been a thing since the beta, what happens is that people only realise it when pros start doing that, just like it was with mass reapers.
Ask masters zergs like me and they'll all confirm it.
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On August 03 2017 06:00 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 04:05 c0sm0naut wrote:On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ. LOL are you talking about solar vs classic? that game where solar sat on lair tech for 15 minutes and didnt make a single infestor vs clumped, low range air units? Mass oracle has been a thing since the beta, what happens is that people only realise it when pros start doing that, just like it was with mass reapers. Ask masters zergs like me and they'll all confirm it.
You run into Protoss in Master league? I just run into Zergs and sometimes Terran. Also, just sack an ovi, if you see them going 2+ sg just drop down spores and get hydras/infestors. If you are losing to 1 stargate mass oracles or getting caught off guard with oracles then it's your fault imo.
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On August 03 2017 06:00 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 04:05 c0sm0naut wrote:On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ. LOL are you talking about solar vs classic? that game where solar sat on lair tech for 15 minutes and didnt make a single infestor vs clumped, low range air units? Mass oracle has been a thing since the beta, what happens is that people only realise it when pros start doing that, just like it was with mass reapers. Ask masters zergs like me and they'll all confirm it.
this will be a build for one month tops, people will construct infestors and collect free wins
then it will fall out of meta again, its users realize how bad the build is
i play random, trust me this shit is incredibly bad. still the only reliably viable thing you can do is get a 2nd nex, get sg units or sentries for hallucination, see what zerg is doing,taking 3rd nex research storm and immortals if hes not being weird
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On August 03 2017 03:42 Charoisaur wrote:
Good patch. 3 rax reaper will be probably dead with this change.
Poor Byun.
I haven't played in ages. But it is good to see that Blizz is still nerfing 3 rax openings 7 years after beta.
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Well... atleast they didn't increase Zergling acceleration
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This change is spot on. I imagine byun can stick with his reapers even after this patch. The damage was a bonus but the actual impact is the grenade displacement/knockback.
Hopefully this will allow byun to shine in his reaper control even more. Right now everything just dies to a few grenade splashes; this will probably allow differentiation between the unpolished 3 rax reaper control and the control of someone with full understanding of grenade physics.
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People shit on the reaper ability for its "terrible design" and yet it's part of so many tense game moments and highlight videos. Glad they don't want to take that away.
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reaper build is dead cant defend vs ravager all in after at all with reapers
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If I would not visit this site and reddit, I would not even realize that the KD8 damage was changed.. if terran execute things properly you can still pretty much die to it and they can still macro behind it aswell.
The only thing which this update did is that they have to be a little more patient and aware of things, thats it =)
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They should give reaper more basic damage from it's pistols to compensate for the change.
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They should double the knockback on the grenades in exchange
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They should give reapers yamato in exchange.
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Mass reapers are too powerful in TvZ and too forgiving even when failed as defending vs that itself is damaging Zerg's eco/tech. I'm glad to see nerf, but i feel granade dmg is not the case. But we'll see how it plays. We have Serral vs Byun on the corner. It can be a good test.
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Reapers should be able to spawn BL/Infestor
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For one I am looking forward to seeing what Terrans come up with early game v Z now...
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U mean hellbat push, widowmine, tank push, banshee, hellion drop, double medivak stim marines drop? I would say there's a lot of it.
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On August 03 2017 22:59 hiroshOne wrote:
U mean hellbat push, widowmine, tank push, banshee, hellion drop, double medivak stim marines drop? I would say there's a lot of it.
i don't think double-medivac-stim-marine-drop is early game
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On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ.
I think you are giving too much credit to the old balance team. Take a look at the entire log of patch notes since LotV release lol
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Thank god, always so late on balance updates lol
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This is good for the Reaper even though a cost increase would have been nice, the main thing for the KD8 charge is disruption and knock back, so it doing less damage is definitely going to make getting caught by a few of them much less punishing.
For the record to all the people complaining on how long it took, they specifically stated that they were going to wait until a particular tournament was concluded (I forget the exact one, was it GSL and IEM?) so can't hate on them too much for the lag.
SC2 is coming to a pretty decent point in it's balance i think.
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On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ.
How exactly does Blizzard's balance team work? Do they not have the authority to do things without someone high up to approve everything? It seems like they're so bogged down in bureaucracy (and stubborness) that they just ignore really obvious solutions to their problems.
A lot of the problems of LotV comes from the fact that there are too many god damned abilities in the game. It's basically gimmick-craft.
tl;dr: The problem is not game balance but game design, but everything they put forward ignores game design and focuses solely on game balance.
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Give us the options to disable skins. I literally can't play with so many different looking units. This is not a free to play game Blizzard!
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On August 04 2017 02:04 Eternal Dalek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ. How exactly does Blizzard's balance team work? Do they not have the authority to do things without someone high up to approve everything? It seems like they're so bogged down in bureaucracy (and stubborness) that they just ignore really obvious solutions to their problems. A lot of the problems of LotV comes from the fact that there are too many god damned abilities in the game. It's basically gimmick-craft. tl;dr: The problem is not game balance but game design, but everything they put forward ignores game design and focuses solely on game balance.
They tried a lot with 2 expansions and some major patches. They just lack a coherent vision IMO. Poor leadership.
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every time reapers jump up or down a cliff a nuke should be instantly dropped on a random hatchery to compensate for this terrible nerf
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Mass oracle has been a thing since the beta, what happens is that people only realise it when pros start doing that
Mass everything has been a thing since forever, that doesn't mean that it's particularly good until used to consistently beat pros etc
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On August 03 2017 15:14 bakemonoda wrote:
reaper build is dead cant defend vs ravager all in after at all with reapers
Reapers were never the counter to Ravager all-in, you need factory units/banshee to deal with that effectively, and once you do it's an easy win.
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On August 04 2017 01:16 jpg06051992 wrote:
SC2 is coming to a pretty decent point in it's balance i think.
also, the game is a lot of fun to watch.
On August 04 2017 02:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Give us the options to disable skins. I literally can't play with so many different looking units. This is not a free to play game Blizzard!
imo, the skins are starting to become a small problem. by the time they offer a warchest for BlizzCon 2018 and another reskin of every race i hope they offer the option to disable skins. also, i'd like it if i can superimpose whatever skin set i like fighting against on my opponents units. 
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On August 04 2017 04:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:16 jpg06051992 wrote:
SC2 is coming to a pretty decent point in it's balance i think. also, the game is a lot of fun to watch. Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 02:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Give us the options to disable skins. I literally can't play with so many different looking units. This is not a free to play game Blizzard! imo, the skins are starting to become a small problem. by the time they offer a warchest for BlizzCon 2018 and another reskin of every race i hope they offer the option to disable skins. also, i'd like it if i can superimpose whatever skin set i like fighting against on my opponents units.
Agree'd, I've noticed even the quality of play from the foreign scene is reaching really high levels, a couple of small balance tweaks like this one and I'm pretty sure any further additions to the game should be focused on quality of life.
Protoss does seem ever so slightly weak at the top level of play, it's probably time in my opinion to start looking into giving Stalkers a raw damage buff, they are pretty pitiful in their current state and even though ZvP is my personal worst match up, I can see that Protoss is probably in need of some early to mid game love, at the very least Stalkers should have a place in the metagame which currently I wouldn't say they do.
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The perfect patch right now would look something like this:
- Stalkers get +2 attack from each attack upgrade.
- Interceptor cost increased to 20 minerals.
- Swarm Hosts price increased to 150/100.
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its just amazing how clueless everyone in these threads is lol
this is a perfectly fine nerf. reapers didn't need a huge overhaul, the strategy is actually pretty dynamic, interesting, and micro intensive, so as long as it isn't completely oppressive (as it was starting to become at the VERY top level) it has a great place in the game. this clearly weakens the strategy without breaking it conceptually which is the right move. reapers are perfectly fine in every situation other than the 3 rax reaper tvz macro build, so nerfing it too much would cause other problems (i.e increasing cost making terran scouting weaker, etc). the unit is not at all a problem in tvt.
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On August 04 2017 15:20 MockHamill wrote:
The perfect patch right now would look something like this:
- Bunker build time was increased
- Stalkers get +2 attack from each attack upgrade.
- Interceptor cost increased to 20 minerals.
- Swarm Hosts price increased to 150/100.
- Bunker build time was decreased
I fixed it.
OT i don't even play anymore but... you should be abble to deactivate skins. So players could even play with it in tournaments but not shown to other players or obs. CSGO skins aren't really intrusive. In SC it is.
Remember Q3A ? You were abble to deactivate skin and eveyrone looked like Sarge and it was good
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On August 04 2017 15:32 Pokebunny wrote:
the unit is not at all a problem in tvt.
Maybe not as a player, but from a viewer's perspective, it's a complete disaster when every other high level TvT ends up as someone going reapers. 4 out of 6 games in the GSL semifinals. Every TvT in SSL this season.
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On August 04 2017 15:51 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 15:32 Pokebunny wrote:
the unit is not at all a problem in tvt. Maybe not as a player, but from a viewer's perspective, it's a complete disaster when every other high level TvT ends up as someone going reapers. 4 out of 6 games in the GSL semifinals. Every TvT in SSL this season.
I agree. I liked watching reaper builds at first, but now every time I see it I just want to cry. Not only in TvT, but also in TvZ. It's a general problem though, that there are only about three builds played in every terran match-up.
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reapers are fine in tvt:
see bad tvter? go gas first 2 gas ez win on those proxy reapers..
see good tvter? go gas first 2 gas cuz its ultimately not even that game losing to be behind 3-4 scvs when you have a tech advantage (assuming he goes reaper > CC and gets a build order "win")
those KR guys that are goign reaper into CC are legit just metagaming at this point. they know this isnt safe and they are going for it anyways
as for tvz, they are even less broken because they dont necessarily even invalidate any builds. like in tvt if you go rax, gas, CC and you are being double proxy reapered, not even byun will hold that..
i think ppl need to man up and stop want blizzard to solve everything for them
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I personaly have trouble with the new bane skin in ZvZ. They look harder to see when mixed with lings, the green that was ment to stand up isn't there anymore. Not sure if changing enemy units to another color would help, i'm using red with colorblind mode.
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On August 04 2017 15:32 Pokebunny wrote:
its just amazing how clueless everyone in these threads is lol
this is a perfectly fine nerf. reapers didn't need a huge overhaul, the strategy is actually pretty dynamic, interesting, and micro intensive, so as long as it isn't completely oppressive (as it was starting to become at the VERY top level) it has a great place in the game. this clearly weakens the strategy without breaking it conceptually which is the right move. reapers are perfectly fine in every situation other than the 3 rax reaper tvz macro build, so nerfing it too much would cause other problems (i.e increasing cost making terran scouting weaker, etc). the unit is not at all a problem in tvt.
i agree with all of the details you go into about the Reaper.
However. what about the issue that it just doesn't "feel like" a tier 1.5 unit. it has all these special, unusual abilities and mechanics. The Reaper feels more like a Red Alert early game unit than a Starcraft early game unit.
At this point, my criticism of the Reaper is rather nebulous; right now the entire game is humming along just great and i'm not anticipating a complete redesign of the Reaper, however, it'd be cool if they tried an overhaul. So please don't lump me in with all the haters and whiners who want David Kim fired.
On August 04 2017 02:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 02:04 Eternal Dalek wrote:On August 03 2017 02:36 xTJx wrote:
Looks like the "new" balance team is 3x slower than before. Maybe in 2 months we'll have a patch and in 3 years they'll realise mass oracle is broken in PvZ. How exactly does Blizzard's balance team work? Do they not have the authority to do things without someone high up to approve everything? It seems like they're so bogged down in bureaucracy (and stubborness) that they just ignore really obvious solutions to their problems. A lot of the problems of LotV comes from the fact that there are too many god damned abilities in the game. It's basically gimmick-craft. tl;dr: The problem is not game balance but game design, but everything they put forward ignores game design and focuses solely on game balance. They tried a lot with 2 expansions and some major patches. They just lack a coherent vision IMO. Poor leadership.
did you hear Morhaime's speech at the Investor call yesterday? Blizzard's leadership is great.
On August 04 2017 16:34 c0sm0naut wrote:
i think ppl need to man up and stop want blizzard to solve everything for them
+1
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On August 04 2017 04:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:16 jpg06051992 wrote:
SC2 is coming to a pretty decent point in it's balance i think. also, the game is a lot of fun to watch. Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 02:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Give us the options to disable skins. I literally can't play with so many different looking units. This is not a free to play game Blizzard! imo, the skins are starting to become a small problem. by the time they offer a warchest for BlizzCon 2018 and another reskin of every race i hope they offer the option to disable skins. also, i'd like it if i can superimpose whatever skin set i like fighting against on my opponents units.
it would be the best solution imo : allow the players to customize both his units and his opponent's, just like it is the case for the team colors. Actually gives an incentive to play the other races too to unlock the skins you want to fight. I'm pretty sure this will happen at some point.
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On August 04 2017 23:16 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 04:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 04 2017 01:16 jpg06051992 wrote:
SC2 is coming to a pretty decent point in it's balance i think. also, the game is a lot of fun to watch. On August 04 2017 02:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Give us the options to disable skins. I literally can't play with so many different looking units. This is not a free to play game Blizzard! imo, the skins are starting to become a small problem. by the time they offer a warchest for BlizzCon 2018 and another reskin of every race i hope they offer the option to disable skins. also, i'd like it if i can superimpose whatever skin set i like fighting against on my opponents units. it would be the best solution imo : allow the players to customize both his units and his opponent's, just like it is the case for the team colors. Actually gives an incentive to play the other races too to unlock the skins you want to fight. I'm pretty sure this will happen at some point.
pretty cool idea tbh
i like JUST got used to the annoying "all my lings have wings that double the unit model size" skin which makes it impossible to judge how many lings there are until you've played 1k games vs the skin itself
my biggest concern with these developers is we have 15 coop commanders coming out per year (has anyone here even played coop? lmao it is so bad) and we cant get a box to disable skins
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like i would legitimately pay the price of whatever all the skins cost combined just so i could have a button that would fucking turn them off
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There should really be an option to disable skins, they're really irritating.
I don't get the argument of "other people want you to see their skins".
What do you want to prove by showing of your skins? That you're rich enough to afford them?
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if ur only going to give 25% to esports and TAKE 75% of the earnings from digital sales, at least put fucking ten thousand dollars aside, hire a contract to code a no-skins thing into the game. they have already earned at least 1.5M from the warchest and advertise it incessantly in the menu/onstreams/onwebsite
this whole topic enrages me tbh. pretty sure activision is leaning on them uber hard
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Blizz please do something about mech, i write nearly under every balance update xd here are some of my propositions:
-Cyclone: if you dont want to give it normal anti air attack, so for example mech vs toss can move out on the map before haveing 5 thors due to phoenix, then decrease lock on duration time from 14 seconds to 7 or 8 so actually damage done by cyclone is visible, with this change every shot against air from cyclone would do 16 damage instead of 8.
-Nerf this swarmhost unit finally, incease it cost and supply by 1 or just reduce their fighting potential to be mostly only harass option.
In my opinion also reason why we see mech so rarely , its due to fact that bio is just better in almost every respect:
Playing bio:
cheap units, fast build time, not gas intensive, huge firepower, good mobility.
Mech is just worse in almost every way, i would also start nerfing bio,for example reduce marauder life to smth like 85, decearse stimpack bonus a bit like - 20/30 % of movement speed and attack speed.Reduce the time that medivac can move on boost.
I think those changes to bio wouldnt shut down bio completly, u could still play it but you would have reason to play mech.
Also really good change is moveing viking to factory in ground mode and adding upgrade to tech lab factory which requiers armory that both hellion and viking can transform ( if its too big of a nerf to hellbat push then only make vikings capable of transforming ). Also nerf advanced ballistics a bit.
Protoss:
Here in my opinion its cool idea to make warp prism able to warp units only with late game tech like u need robo bay and its expensive and takes long time to make, so early mid game its just normal transport, instead of warping 7 adepts in ur face. Nerf adepts still in my opinion, like the idea of adept loosing half or all shields upon teleport so its good fighting unit ,but shadeing on top of for example T bio would be a bit more suicidable. Increase carrier interceptor cost maby to 20 minerals, Or if not then increase supply by 1 or 2 on carrier, tempest, broodlord, battlecruiser.
Zerg:
In my opinion playing zergling/baneling/hydralisk started to be a problem, great to see hydra, but pvz can be one tactic everygame by zerg. I would decrease corruptor vomit on buildings attacks, I would also nerf corrosive bile damage to smth like 50 or 45.
What do you guys think about those ideas???
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The game is pretty balanced with viable unit compositions now, and I'm glad there is still discussion going on, especially about the role of the stalker in the game.
The other night I was thinking about how the stalker became the worst protoss unit in lotv.
Barely, pretty much never seen in PvZ anymore with ling/bane/hydra destroying it.
Barely seen in PvP anymore after the first 3 minutes because zealots, immortals, and archons more importantly are way better.
And only seen as a meat shield in PvT, and performs very poorly past midgame.
With protoss winrates on aligulac being 45% and at many times less than that for a whole year (give or take a single month), I think it's a good unit to look at to get a buff.
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Yeah Cyclone antiair is piss poor. Something needs to change here.
Swarm-hosts should be #1 priority to change. The speed and cost are its main issues.
I honestly think disruptor is a fucking shit unit. Especially in PvZ.
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On August 05 2017 23:49 Psychobabas wrote:
Yeah Cyclone antiair is piss poor. Something needs to change here.
Swarm-hosts should be #1 priority to change. The speed and cost are its main issues.
I honestly think disruptor is a fucking shit unit. Especially in PvZ.
Both this post and the post directly above it are true, Swarm Hosts are way too cheap for how much they stifle mech but at the same time, if there is no way for the Zerg to put pressure on a turtle mech Terran then style becomes incredibly strong and usually results in very long, stalemate games where the Terran takes a big lead into the mega late game with mass Ravens. The only thing that the Swarm Host needs is a increase in cost so they aren't so easy to mass but that's it, it must remain strong. At least in the game I saw, Banshee was an extremely strong and appropriate response to mass Swarm Host camping outside of the base, and then the Banshees proceeded to do tremendous damage after the Hosts were gone anyways.
The Disruptor however is a failed unit in my opinion, needs a pretty big overhaul and to be perfectly honesty, Protoss armies don't need anymore instant killing splash damage. Between Storms and buffed Colossus, I never see a pro game where a late game Protoss army is in need of extra splash, it's just not something that Protoss armies generally lack. I'd like to see Carriers nerfed, Void Rays nerfed vs. armored (why do they still instant melt Corruptors? It's just a stupid unit interaction, how many times must the balance team be shown that gross hard counters aren't good for the game?) in exchange for Stalkers doing + 2 to light units so they can fight Zerglings, Hydralisks, Mutalisks, and Marines a bit more effectively (i.e. toning down the hard counter effect that is removing the Stalker from the game at the moment).
So yes, tldr, Protoss end game sky armies need to be nerfed (a move, super uninteresting unit interaction alot of the time) in exchange for a greatly enhanced Stalker, this will shift the power of Protoss away from turtling and back into being more aggressive with low numbers of high tech units, you know, like how the race is actually supposed to function.
Also would not mind a mild Sentry redesign into something like this to make it a stronger, sturdier front line engagement unit, currently it's a pitiful, fragile little force field orb that pretty much function for nothing else when it could function more as a, "protoss medic" of sorts.
Sentry
- Remove Force Field and replace with Plasma Surge (grants 0.75 shield for every 1 point of energy the Sentry has
instantly)
- Guardian Shield now only removes 1 point of damage from ranged attack but grants a 15% movement speed buff (this will increase Gateway armies early to mid game mobility)
- Buff it's little laser beam
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On August 05 2017 18:21 gab12 wrote:What do you guys think about those ideas???
the game is in a great place. all 6 matchups are in good to great shape.. if they don't want to overhaul the Reaper just leave everything as is. i think there is slightly too much air play by Terran, but trying to tune air/ground balance of power to my personal subjective tastes could fuck up the whole game.. .so just leave Terran alone.
TY's aggressive Mech against Scarlett was sweet.
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That's strange I was expecting an avilo post, but I don't see one.
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On August 06 2017 02:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 18:21 gab12 wrote:What do you guys think about those ideas??? the game is in a great place. all 6 matchups are in good to great shape.. if they don't want to overhaul the Reaper just leave everything as is. i think there is slightly too much air play by Terran, but trying to tune air/ground balance of power to my personal subjective tastes could fuck up the whole game.. .so just leave Terran alone. TY's aggressive Mech against Scarlett was sweet.
I definitely agree for the most part.
I'm in favor of the reaper change, but don't really know where else the reaper might fit into a late game army (or even if it *should* fit into a late game army).
I do agree on the air play, though, I feel like there could be some slight tweaks here and there to make air less of a "just do this" strat, since it has all of the advantages of a ground army, except that it can just ignore terrain.
I, also, for one, would like it if they brought back the BW mechanic of shots going up-hill have a chance to miss. But that's just me...
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Instead of changing colosi,
change hydra damage from 12 to 10+2 vs armored.
So zealots and archons will have a much better time vs zerg. Hydra bane is too good overall. This comp has no drawbacks and is used in 95% of pvzs.
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On August 06 2017 01:57 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2017 23:49 Psychobabas wrote:
Yeah Cyclone antiair is piss poor. Something needs to change here.
Swarm-hosts should be #1 priority to change. The speed and cost are its main issues.
I honestly think disruptor is a fucking shit unit. Especially in PvZ. Both this post and the post directly above it are true, Swarm Hosts are way too cheap for how much they stifle mech but at the same time, if there is no way for the Zerg to put pressure on a turtle mech Terran then style becomes incredibly strong and usually results in very long, stalemate games where the Terran takes a big lead into the mega late game with mass Ravens. (...)
Agreed. Zerg can't do anything against mech but sit there defending helion runbys until hive tech. Who the hell thinks that's good for the game?
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On August 05 2017 18:21 gab12 wrote:Blizz please do something about mech, i write nearly under every balance update xd here are some of my propositions: -Cyclone: if you dont want to give it normal anti air attack, so for example mech vs toss can move out on the map before haveing 5 thors due to phoenix, then decrease lock on duration time from 14 seconds to 7 or 8 so actually damage done by cyclone is visible, with this change every shot against air from cyclone would do 16 damage instead of 8. -Nerf this swarmhost unit finally, incease it cost and supply by 1 or just reduce their fighting potential to be mostly only harass option. In my opinion also reason why we see mech so rarely , its due to fact that bio is just better in almost every respect: Playing bio: cheap units, fast build time, not gas intensive, huge firepower, good mobility. Mech is just worse in almost every way, i would also start nerfing bio,for example reduce marauder life to smth like 85, decearse stimpack bonus a bit like - 20/30 % of movement speed and attack speed.Reduce the time that medivac can move on boost. I think those changes to bio wouldnt shut down bio completly, u could still play it but you would have reason to play mech. Also really good change is moveing viking to factory in ground mode and adding upgrade to tech lab factory which requiers armory that both hellion and viking can transform ( if its too big of a nerf to hellbat push then only make vikings capable of transforming ). Also nerf advanced ballistics a bit. Protoss: Here in my opinion its cool idea to make warp prism able to warp units only with late game tech like u need robo bay and its expensive and takes long time to make, so early mid game its just normal transport, instead of warping 7 adepts in ur face. Nerf adepts still in my opinion, like the idea of adept loosing half or all shields upon teleport so its good fighting unit ,but shadeing on top of for example T bio would be a bit more suicidable. Increase carrier interceptor cost maby to 20 minerals, Or if not then increase supply by 1 or 2 on carrier, tempest, broodlord, battlecruiser. Zerg: In my opinion playing zergling/baneling/hydralisk started to be a problem, great to see hydra, but pvz can be one tactic everygame by zerg. I would decrease corruptor vomit on buildings attacks, I would also nerf corrosive bile damage to smth like 50 or 45. What do you guys think about those ideas???
I think those changes would make the game utterly boring and turtle.
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On August 13 2017 06:42 insitelol wrote:
Instead of changing colosi,
change hydra damage from 12 to 10+2 vs armored.
So zealots and archons will have a much better time vs zerg. Hydra bane is too good overall. This comp has no drawbacks and is used in 95% of pvzs.
Storm?
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Why would you nerf a unit the zerg so relies on in ZvP. Yes, we can play ZvT without hydras, but ZvP with nerfed hydras will make it way harder against stargate openers.
Storm is a good answer to hydras.
I saw several PvZs played today with the best EU zergs vs ShowTime (ShowTime won all apart for Serral), some were hydra ling bane, other were swarm hosts ling bane, and many included lurkers with banes as only a defensive tool against chargelots. There was a game with mutas and corrupors. So ZvP isn't all about hydras.
In PvZ the protoss have the first choice of tech (twilight or stargate these days). Hydras are the answer to one of those, and viable vs the other. But there are different reactions to twilight. Not necessary hydras.
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On August 06 2017 03:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's strange I was expecting an avilo post, but I don't see one.
he's actually chill now since his ban
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EPT
