Balance Update Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the proposed changes. We really appreciated all of the thoughtful discussion! After reading over the feedback, we are preparing to implement the balance changes that have been on the testing matchmaking queue.
Terran
Thor Thor armor was increased from 1 to 2. Thor morph times reduced from 2.5 to 1.79. Thor morph random delay durations reduced from 0.36 to 0.18.
Raven Auto-Turret damage reduced from 24 to 18. Auto-Turret duration increased from 7.14 to 10.
Protoss
Tempest Kinetic Overload damage increased from 30 (+14 massive) to 30 (+22 massive).
Void Ray Prismatic Alignment slows the Void Ray by 40% while active.
Zealot Charge upgrade cost lowered from 200/200 to 100/100.
Zerg
Roach & Infestor Undetected burrow move visual effects should be more visible.
Currently, we are planning for these changes to go live next week in the upcoming 3.14 patch. As always, we welcome your thoughts and feedback!
I wonder if the patch will come with any other features. I thought that balance changes were supposed to be separate from client patches for some time now.
On May 17 2017 06:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I really don't like the Void Ray change. It was useful for chasing down Carriers and Tempests, and with the speed nerf, you can't do that.
I think it was either that or the bonus damage was getting nerfed, guess they didn't want to nerf the VR's straight up fight capability. You have to admit it is a completely no brainer ability, "Now I press the button and my Void Rays move faster and hit harder". Kind of like stim minus the impressive micro capabilities of the Marine.
On May 17 2017 06:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I really don't like the Void Ray change. It was useful for chasing down Carriers and Tempests, and with the speed nerf, you can't do that.
I think it was either that or the bonus damage was getting nerfed, guess they didn't want to nerf the VR's straight up fight capability. You have to admit it is a completely no brainer ability, "Now I press the button and my Void Rays move faster and hit harder". Kind of like stim minus the impressive micro capabilities of the Marine.
Prismatic Align doesn't increase the speed of a Void Ray.
But sure, it is absolutely a bad ability, buttons you press that only improve your units with no cost represents poor game design (cough... Medivac Boost... cough).
In fact, the Void Ray isn't a well designed unit honestly. But in SC2 it is a near microless air unit necessary to counter other near microless air units in PvP... unless you build Carriers and Tempests yourself, there is no other counter to those units once their numbers start getting high enough. So ideally the Void Ray would be replaced with a better designed unit, but until then the Carrier and Tempest just go so much stronger in PvP...
Air versus air is so fun in a RTS. I'd really like Stalkers to be better at killing air units.
On May 17 2017 06:15 BronzeKnee wrote: I really don't like the Void Ray change. It was useful for chasing down Carriers and Tempests, and with the speed nerf, you can't do that.
I think it was either that or the bonus damage was getting nerfed, guess they didn't want to nerf the VR's straight up fight capability. You have to admit it is a completely no brainer ability, "Now I press the button and my Void Rays move faster and hit harder". Kind of like stim minus the impressive micro capabilities of the Marine.
Prismatic Align doesn't increase the speed of a Void Ray.
But sure, it is absolutely a bad ability, buttons you press that only improve your units with no cost represents poor game design (cough... Medivac Boost... cough).
In fact, the Void Ray isn't a well designed unit honestly. But in SC2 it is a near microless air unit necessary to counter other near microless air units in PvP... unless you build Carriers and Tempests yourself, there is no other counter to those units once their numbers start getting high enough. So ideally the Void Ray would be replaced with a better designed unit, but until then the Carrier and Tempest just go so much stronger in PvP...
Air versus air is so fun in a RTS. I'd really like Stalkers to be better at killing air units.
I completely agree with your entire post and I apologize about the movement speed, I was totally wrong lol
On May 17 2017 05:57 A.Alm wrote: Lol was a video really needed? Pretty small patch. Nice video tho
The answer is NO, it's not needed... but as my girlfriend and I were discussing a few moments ago, making content about everything and anything is how you expand your name on the internet He got to you, didnt he!?
PiG has been making a name for himself for quite some time, and now it's almost like a Day9-esque reputation as far as im concerned. Which isn't a bad thing, as I've learned a crap ton from PiG's stuff.
Am I the only one worried about a possible resurgence of proxy-thor builds in TvT ?
Also, most changes seem sensible and make sense, without overdoing it. Looks like a pretty good patch I'd say !
I like the autoturret change. Shouldn't change much at the highest level (where the players have almost instant reactions) but it'll help mid and lower level players immensely (how many time have I lost half of a mineral line because I took like 4-5s to respond...).
Edit: can't believe I almost missed this... HAPPY PI PATCH PEOPLE ! \o/
On May 17 2017 17:02 LoneYoShi wrote: Am I the only one worried about a possible resurgence of proxy-thor builds in TvT ?
Nope. I'd imagine they're a lot harder to hold with marines and cyclones doing no damage per shot.
That's my fear as well. I like to open with a fast expand (reaper expo or reaper + factory expo), might be complicated now. Or I'll have to accept the possibility of a BO loss. I haven't really thought about it, but the recent addition of High Impact Payload may also be a problem towards the common approach of using a viking to shut down this build... Did it change how much damage a Thor does to a viking ?
On May 17 2017 17:02 LoneYoShi wrote: Am I the only one worried about a possible resurgence of proxy-thor builds in TvT ?
Nope. I'd imagine they're a lot harder to hold with marines and cyclones doing no damage per shot.
1-1-1 with marine/tank/viking or marine/tank/raven will still beat proxy thor.
Yeah there'll always be builds that hold it, but I'd like to avoid having to open full 1-1-1 on 1 base every TvT... I'll adapt if I have to, but playing 1 base isn't really what I prefer.
On May 17 2017 05:57 A.Alm wrote: Lol was a video really needed? Pretty small patch. Nice video tho
This patch is incredibly huge for protoss meta game so I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. I mean, take Nony in this thread for example. One of the builds he did in early WoL, his upg'd zealot timing attacks were incredibly, incredibly strong for quite a while. Imagine having speed +1 armor lots +forge for mine drop detection now at like ~5-6minutes in the game while being able to defend a 3rd as toss..... seems like quite a strong build to me, just gotta find out how to make it work.
edit: it is actually such a fun prospect being able to play this style again that I'm debating playing 1v1 a bit too now. I really dislike the PvT disruptor style.
On May 17 2017 18:59 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: No reason to make broodlords in any matchup now, I don't like this patch
There was a reason to make broodlords before?
The problem with broods is they're massively overpowered if they show up and your opponent is unprepared. However they're completely fucking worthless if they are.
On May 17 2017 18:59 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: No reason to make broodlords in any matchup now, I don't like this patch
There was a reason to make broodlords before?
The problem with broods is they're massively overpowered if they show up and your opponent is unprepared. However they're completely fucking worthless if they are.
So how do you balance something like that?
They were pretty useful and not overpowered at all before the range nerf.
6 supply useless unit dealing 10 more damage per shot (with terrible attack ratio) definetely gonna make BL "useless". It took 6 shots to kill a BL, now, guess what, it takes 5!!! oh my god.
On May 17 2017 19:46 insitelol wrote: 6 supply useless unit dealing 10 more damage per shot (with terrible attack ratio) definetely gonna make BL "useless". It took 6 shots to kill a BL, now, guess what, it takes 5!!! oh my god.
They were already useless after the range nerf, now they're utter garbage. Not to mention that 6 supply unit cost less than broodlord, is faster, has more range and can attack both air&ground but its the one which needs a buff somehow?!
Tempest is arguably the most underused unit these days. It's blizzard justification for a buff (plus, they want to promote anti-air in pvp). I, personally, never liked this unit, barely used it in hots, didn't build a single one since the launch of Lotv and don't plan doing this even after the patch. And i honestly doubt tempests will ever be a problem for zergs.
im so sick of them changing everything BUT what needs to be changed to make the thor good
its not fast enough it has never been fast enough on launch, everyone complained that this unit was clunky and goofy , and its been 7 years
i mean maybe ive just been too hopeful, but i dont see how any developer could be attached to that unit. who is the one at blizz taking the thor design so personally taht they dont try the most basic solution to the unit. SIZE/SPEED
On May 17 2017 21:39 StarscreamG1 wrote: All this bullshit about thor armor, shot modes, etc... The unit needs to be a kind of goliath, that's it.
That would be the Cyclone.
lol nah its just a cyclone
i watched some broodwar the other day and i was cumming buckets watching tank pushes get stopped by a premature carrier transition, rally goliaths and make the push work with their reliable anti air
On May 17 2017 21:39 StarscreamG1 wrote: All this bullshit about thor armor, shot modes, etc... The unit needs to be a kind of goliath, that's it.
That would be the Cyclone.
lol nah its just a cyclone
i watched some broodwar the other day and i was cumming buckets watching tank pushes get stopped by a premature carrier transition, rally goliaths and make the push work with their reliable anti air
I dont get these changes at all... Void ray and tempest change just doesnt make any sense what so ever. Voids are already garbage why even thinking about nerfing them? lol And the tempests? This change would make some sense if the bonus was applied to carriers only otherwise its just dumb and screws up other matchups as well.
Charge cost is lower... well okay, but toss will still use adepts anyway. charge cost is not the issue and never was. why build a unit that is made almost completely obsolete by another unit which is much more versatile?
Thors main issue was/is that it sucks against air (mostly broods), and these changes dont help that much in that regard either.
And this took what a month? To get 2 good changes which have almost 0 impact on overall balance (the burrow visual and the auto turret) I mean, come on.... :/
On May 18 2017 01:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: I dont get these changes at all... Void ray and tempest change just doesnt make any sense what so ever. Voids are already garbage why even thinking about nerfing them? lol And the tempests? This change would make some sense if the bonus was applied to carriers only otherwise its just dumb and screws up other matchups as well.
Charge cost is lower... well okay, but toss will still use adepts anyway. charge cost is not the issue and never was. why build a unit that is made almost completely obsolete by another unit which is much more versatile?
Thors main issue was/is that it sucks against air (mostly broods), and these changes dont help that much in that regard either.
And this took what a month? To get 2 good changes which have almost 0 impact on overall balance (the burrow visual and the auto turret) I mean, come on.... :/
Void Rays don't suck, they are strong where they need to be used, but their design is crap, it's a zero skill A move unit just like the Broodlords, it either teeters between overpowered and underpowered based on ground up design. Personally I'm glad Tempests were buffed vs. Brood Lords and that Void Rays are getting nerfed, air units are just too powerful in SC2, next up I'm hoping they do an Oracle redesign. Air vs Air battles suck and units that incinerate workers in the blink of an eye suck, Phoenix was way less gimmicky then opening Oracle and way more fun/skill based to watch.
Charge change is great but I completely agree with your second line, why the hell would you ever build a Zealot when you can build a unit that is just as beefy, but it's ranged, durable, and is one of the best harassment units in the game. Charge wasnt the problem, Adepts overshadowing Zealots and Stalkers is the problem, and it's a problem that will persist until the Adept is changed to actually have some type of drawback or role other then, "General better then the others Gateway unit"
Can't wait until the off season when this team can actually roll out more in depth changes, they can't really do it right now because of the tournaments going on so they have to keep the changes very small and careful.
On May 18 2017 01:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: I dont get these changes at all... Void ray and tempest change just doesnt make any sense what so ever. Voids are already garbage why even thinking about nerfing them? lol And the tempests? This change would make some sense if the bonus was applied to carriers only otherwise its just dumb and screws up other matchups as well.
Charge cost is lower... well okay, but toss will still use adepts anyway. charge cost is not the issue and never was. why build a unit that is made almost completely obsolete by another unit which is much more versatile?
Thors main issue was/is that it sucks against air (mostly broods), and these changes dont help that much in that regard either.
And this took what a month? To get 2 good changes which have almost 0 impact on overall balance (the burrow visual and the auto turret) I mean, come on.... :/
Void Rays don't suck, they are strong where they need to be used, but their design is crap, it's a zero skill A move unit just like the Broodlords, it either teeters between overpowered and underpowered based on ground up design. Personally I'm glad Tempests were buffed vs. Brood Lords and that Void Rays are getting nerfed, air units are just too powerful in SC2, next up I'm hoping they do an Oracle redesign. Air vs Air battles suck and units that incinerate workers in the blink of an eye suck, Phoenix was way less gimmicky then opening Oracle and way more fun/skill based to watch.
Charge change is great but I completely agree with your second line, why the hell would you ever build a Zealot when you can build a unit that is just as beefy, but it's ranged, durable, and is one of the best harassment units in the game. Charge wasnt the problem, Adepts overshadowing Zealots and Stalkers is the problem, and it's a problem that will persist until the Adept is changed to actually have some type of drawback or role other then, "General better then the others Gateway unit"
Can't wait until the off season when this team can actually roll out more in depth changes, they can't really do it right now because of the tournaments going on so they have to keep the changes very small and careful.
The problem isn't tempest counter broodlords, as you can counter tempest with corruptor +/- abduct, the problem is HT counter everything.
Only broodlords can zone HT, but if you give P a big hard counter to broodlords, the just have to make HT + Tempest combination with some skytoss or immortal/archons balls and they crush everything.
Zerg need a counter to HT, because HT can annhilate everything with storm (pretty broken spell because it's instant and hit both air and ground), and counter all the zerg caster that could be used to counter the P deathball.
Something like :
the HT can't use his spells under blinding cloud would be nice, because HT have 9 range and viper cloud is 11 range, and HT move slowly.
Also it's not a hard counter (HT can still feedback vipers out the cloud), but allow at least some counter play, and nice move like fungal + cloud, hard to perform and great to watch on a pro tournament.
On May 18 2017 01:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: I dont get these changes at all... Void ray and tempest change just doesnt make any sense what so ever. Voids are already garbage why even thinking about nerfing them? lol And the tempests? This change would make some sense if the bonus was applied to carriers only otherwise its just dumb and screws up other matchups as well.
Charge cost is lower... well okay, but toss will still use adepts anyway. charge cost is not the issue and never was. why build a unit that is made almost completely obsolete by another unit which is much more versatile?
Thors main issue was/is that it sucks against air (mostly broods), and these changes dont help that much in that regard either.
And this took what a month? To get 2 good changes which have almost 0 impact on overall balance (the burrow visual and the auto turret) I mean, come on.... :/
Void Rays don't suck, they are strong where they need to be used, but their design is crap, it's a zero skill A move unit just like the Broodlords, it either teeters between overpowered and underpowered based on ground up design. Personally I'm glad Tempests were buffed vs. Brood Lords and that Void Rays are getting nerfed, air units are just too powerful in SC2, next up I'm hoping they do an Oracle redesign. Air vs Air battles suck and units that incinerate workers in the blink of an eye suck, Phoenix was way less gimmicky then opening Oracle and way more fun/skill based to watch.
Charge change is great but I completely agree with your second line, why the hell would you ever build a Zealot when you can build a unit that is just as beefy, but it's ranged, durable, and is one of the best harassment units in the game. Charge wasnt the problem, Adepts overshadowing Zealots and Stalkers is the problem, and it's a problem that will persist until the Adept is changed to actually have some type of drawback or role other then, "General better then the others Gateway unit"
Can't wait until the off season when this team can actually roll out more in depth changes, they can't really do it right now because of the tournaments going on so they have to keep the changes very small and careful.
The problem isn't tempest counter broodlords, as you can counter tempest with corruptor +/- abduct, the problem is HT counter everything.
Only broodlords can zone HT, but if you give P a big hard counter to broodlords, the just have to make HT + Tempest combination with some skytoss or immortal/archons balls and they crush everything.
Zerg need a counter to HT, because HT can annhilate everything with storm (pretty broken spell because it's instant and hit both air and ground), and counter all the zerg caster that could be used to counter the P deathball.
Something like :
the HT can't use his spells under blinding cloud would be nice, because HT have 9 range and viper cloud is 11 range, and HT move slowly.
Also it's not a hard counter (HT can still feedback vipers out the cloud), but allow at least some counter play, and nice move like fungal + cloud, hard to perform and great to watch on a pro tournament.
I mostly agree with this, for the record I play Zerg so I'm not advocating too much Protoss buff or Zerg nerf or anything like that, I just think air units as a whole are too powerful.
I would have to say that if the Protoss is at a point where he can start cranking out 10 + Templars with his ultimate doom army then the Zerg is in trouble or needs to take very careful engagements. Zerg is supposed to win or take a big lead in the mid game to win, where as Protoss needs to do damage to the Zerg early game or macro/defend in the mid game to secure their well known late game advantage. I don't think Starcraft will ever get a point where every race is perfectly balanced at every stage of the game.
Same goes for Terran, they know they need to do damage early game mid game or open up very greedy and play a skin to the teeth defense if they are going to not challenge the Zerg economy, because Terran has a very powerful mid game but starts to fall off against Zerg late game.
welp, i'm happy with Blizzard's handling of multiplayer so i'm buying the skins.
On May 18 2017 05:14 avilo wrote: Really hate how they went back on the Thor flat damage buff. That needed to be in the game.
they have a process. stuff gets pulled all the time when it fails a stage in their process. language like "went back on" steers it towards the narrative of some kind of dishonesty. that's a false narrative.
On May 18 2017 01:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: I dont get these changes at all... Void ray and tempest change just doesnt make any sense what so ever. Voids are already garbage why even thinking about nerfing them? lol And the tempests? This change would make some sense if the bonus was applied to carriers only otherwise its just dumb and screws up other matchups as well.
Charge cost is lower... well okay, but toss will still use adepts anyway. charge cost is not the issue and never was. why build a unit that is made almost completely obsolete by another unit which is much more versatile?
Thors main issue was/is that it sucks against air (mostly broods), and these changes dont help that much in that regard either.
And this took what a month? To get 2 good changes which have almost 0 impact on overall balance (the burrow visual and the auto turret) I mean, come on.... :/
Void Rays don't suck, they are strong where they need to be used, but their design is crap, it's a zero skill A move unit just like the Broodlords, it either teeters between overpowered and underpowered based on ground up design. Personally I'm glad Tempests were buffed vs. Brood Lords and that Void Rays are getting nerfed, air units are just too powerful in SC2, next up I'm hoping they do an Oracle redesign. Air vs Air battles suck and units that incinerate workers in the blink of an eye suck, Phoenix was way less gimmicky then opening Oracle and way more fun/skill based to watch.
Charge change is great but I completely agree with your second line, why the hell would you ever build a Zealot when you can build a unit that is just as beefy, but it's ranged, durable, and is one of the best harassment units in the game. Charge wasnt the problem, Adepts overshadowing Zealots and Stalkers is the problem, and it's a problem that will persist until the Adept is changed to actually have some type of drawback or role other then, "General better then the others Gateway unit"
Can't wait until the off season when this team can actually roll out more in depth changes, they can't really do it right now because of the tournaments going on so they have to keep the changes very small and careful.
The problem isn't tempest counter broodlords, as you can counter tempest with corruptor +/- abduct, the problem is HT counter everything.
Only broodlords can zone HT, but if you give P a big hard counter to broodlords, the just have to make HT + Tempest combination with some skytoss or immortal/archons balls and they crush everything.
Zerg need a counter to HT, because HT can annhilate everything with storm (pretty broken spell because it's instant and hit both air and ground), and counter all the zerg caster that could be used to counter the P deathball.
Something like :
the HT can't use his spells under blinding cloud would be nice, because HT have 9 range and viper cloud is 11 range, and HT move slowly.
Also it's not a hard counter (HT can still feedback vipers out the cloud), but allow at least some counter play, and nice move like fungal + cloud, hard to perform and great to watch on a pro tournament.
I mostly agree with this, for the record I play Zerg so I'm not advocating too much Protoss buff or Zerg nerf or anything like that, I just think air units as a whole are too powerful.
I would have to say that if the Protoss is at a point where he can start cranking out 10 + Templars with his ultimate doom army then the Zerg is in trouble or needs to take very careful engagements. Zerg is supposed to win or take a big lead in the mid game to win, where as Protoss needs to do damage to the Zerg early game or macro/defend in the mid game to secure their well known late game advantage. I don't think Starcraft will ever get a point where every race is perfectly balanced at every stage of the game.
Same goes for Terran, they know they need to do damage early game mid game or open up very greedy and play a skin to the teeth defense if they are going to not challenge the Zerg economy, because Terran has a very powerful mid game but starts to fall off against Zerg late game.
i dont think zvp is as asymmetrical as tvp, except that terrans have been playing the matchup in this light for so long
remember that vikings dont really kill buildings, liberators cant even shoot buildings, ghost tickle buildings as well. so if you do manage to win a fight with higher tech vs higher tech, you cant necessarily capitalize on it. if you win a massive fight in zvp, corruptors can kill bases quickly now so most of your army is useful. i cant tell yolu how many times i have won a massive fight in TvP, only to try and kill economy with the clunkiest, most garbage late game army in the game, end up doing no damage and just have to shamefully walk away while i wait for more units taht can actually kill something besides the units they were designed to kill (marine marauder can kill buildings, nothing else can)
it really feel like they only think about these units in a head to head maxed vs max fight and they dont even think abt what happens after, or the rising action. like it is so irritating to attack into a player massing carriers, its actually enough to tilt me as zerg. tvp is just a fuckin nightmare where you get pylon rushed+ proxy oracled every game, are forced to defend all game and then finally have a chance to do damage only to have that damage offset by triple chrono, MSC and the shitty defensive style protoss has forced u into
On May 18 2017 13:48 c0sm0naut wrote: viking skin is the first skin i might buy tbh
i was playing 2v2s in a game i knew we had in the bag with a giant lead. my partner told me to get burrow. i said "no way man i paid $13 for these skins and i wanna see my roaches in action i'm not burrowing them" .. the guy flipped out and sent me about 10 messages about why i need to get burrow. we still won.. but the argument made the game a bit closer.
On May 17 2017 21:03 insitelol wrote: Tempest is arguably the most underused unit these days. It's blizzard justification for a buff (plus, they want to promote anti-air in pvp).
maybe they should start by adding a protoss ground unit that shoots air for more than thrown cottonballs.
On May 17 2017 21:03 insitelol wrote: Tempest is arguably the most underused unit these days. It's blizzard justification for a buff (plus, they want to promote anti-air in pvp).
maybe they should start by adding a protoss ground unit that shoots air for more than thrown cottonballs.
they moved away from an early game anti-air heavy hitter 10 years ago by replacing the Dragoon with an ultra mobile unit with less health and less firepower.
later in the game, the Archon in 2 is approximately the same anti-air threat as the Archon in 1.
Therefore, i suspect Blizzard will not address your concern.
On May 18 2017 05:14 avilo wrote: Really hate how they went back on the Thor flat damage buff. That needed to be in the game.
they have a process. stuff gets pulled all the time when it fails a stage in their process. language like "went back on" steers it towards the narrative of some kind of dishonesty. that's a false narrative.
But appaerantly its not working. So their system suck.
On May 18 2017 06:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote: welp, i'm happy with Blizzard's handling of multiplayer so i'm buying the skins.
On May 18 2017 05:14 avilo wrote: Really hate how they went back on the Thor flat damage buff. That needed to be in the game.
they have a process. stuff gets pulled all the time when it fails a stage in their process. language like "went back on" steers it towards the narrative of some kind of dishonesty. that's a false narrative.
But appaerantly its not working. So their system suck.
according to whom? most of the group i play with bought all the skins, 1/2 bought the giant voice pack thing. and they all play the LotV Co-op thing and 2v2s religiously for 5+ years.
looks like it works to me.
if a better RTS game comes out i'll move to it... i'll probably buy SC:RM but i suspect i'll end up back in SC2 multiplayer due to the quality of life improvements like the idle worker button.
On May 18 2017 06:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote: welp, i'm happy with Blizzard's handling of multiplayer so i'm buying the skins.
On May 18 2017 05:14 avilo wrote: Really hate how they went back on the Thor flat damage buff. That needed to be in the game.
they have a process. stuff gets pulled all the time when it fails a stage in their process. language like "went back on" steers it towards the narrative of some kind of dishonesty. that's a false narrative.
But appaerantly its not working. So their system suck.
according to whom? most of the group i play with bought all the skins, 1/2 bought the giant voice pack thing. and they all play the LotV Co-op thing and 2v2s religiously for 5+ years.
looks like it works to me.
if a better RTS game comes out i'll move to it... i'll probably buy SC:RM but i suspect i'll end up back in SC2 multiplayer due to the quality of life improvements like the idle worker button.
how's DoW3 doing?
But they go back and forth on things all the time and have been for 2years now? Its as if the system #1. It comes first. Because they trust the system or because the lead designer or w.e its called has no plan i dont know but its like they are implementing random stuff from the community and than switching back and forth if they want that change or not. So here we are, without much change after all after 2years(since the time they started to pr talk to us
I dont play dow3. Best method in the rts genre is to stay the heck away from them.
On May 18 2017 23:28 Foxxan wrote: But they go back and forth on things all the time and have been for 2years now?
r u familiar with "brainstorming" nad "blue skying" during the creative process? that's what this is.
this "back and forth" coincides with teh exact time Blizzard starting being more "open" about their thoughts and proceses for balancing tweaking SC2.
this "back and forth" has probably always been that way .. we just didn't know it because they were more closed in their development process.
the company is called "Blizzard". you're getting chaos and disorganization. i mean they've cancelled games after 5 years of development.
as long as they always come through when i spend money i'm willing to give Blizzard the creative latitude they deserve. if they have some false starts along the way.. so be it.
And thats the issue right there. They go back and forth of what exactly? Community feedback? Insecure? "What should we do"?, no plan leads to not knowing what to do thats why it gets back and forth. And thats why i call it a bad system because to me, its clearly not working.
i'm having more fun with this RTS than others. therefore, Blizzard's "methodology" is better than Relic's, or EALA's, or Ensemble's or Gearbox's. its easy to poke holes in some effort made by a team of people.. its a whole other deal to make something better.
anyhow .. these kinds of oscillations and false starts have been part of Blizzard since day 1. its part of their creative method. its prolly annoying for immature consumers with a 'me now' attitude. i don't care how they feel. they'll scream like 5 year olds and 2 weeks later act like everything is great.. just like 5 year olds do.
i could sit around and focus on this or that error Blizzard made in the past. Blow it up and only talk about that one small aspect. it gets me no where. if Blizz really fucked up i'd just play a different game.
I am trying to figure out what Blizzard is trying to achieve with the Thor Buff.
Mech has two primary problem that prevents it from being competitive against players who knows how to play against mech.
1. Swarm Hosts. This unit single-handily prevents mech from being usable in TvZ. Adding 1 more armour to Thors does nothing to change this. Mech can still not be used against someone who knows how to abuse 75 gas Swarm Hosts.
2. Anti-air. Mech has no anti-air. If the opponent is going pure air you can not build anything on the the ground to fight this. You are basically forced to throw away all your ground units and and try to build as many vikings/ravens as you can since Thors do not help to win the air battle (except against mass mutas).
In what way does 1 more armour on Thors change this? The only anti-air situation where Thors will perform slightly better is against unsupported and unmicroed carriers. But if the Protoss player knows how to use carriers leach range and build immortals to focus down the Thors, the Thors will not even be able to reach the carriers before they die. Carriers with ground support will still hard-counter mech and Terrans only option is trying to build more BC/Vikings/Ravens then the opponent invest in Tempest/Carriers/Void Rays.
So what is the point of the Thor change. It does not improve mech. It does not change anything for bio. So why do this change instead of doing something that would actually help mech like increase the cost of Swarm Hosts?
On May 20 2017 02:40 MockHamill wrote: I am trying to figure out what Blizzard is trying to achieve with the Thor Buff.
Mech has two primary problem that prevents it from being competitive against players who knows how to play against mech.
1. Swarm Hosts. This unit single-handily prevents mech from being usable in TvZ. Adding 1 more armour to Thors does nothing to change this. Mech can still not be used against someone who knows how to abuse 75 gas Swarm Hosts.
2. Anti-air. Mech has no anti-air. If the opponent is going pure air you can not build anything on the the ground to fight this. You are basically forced to throw away all your ground units and and try to build as many vikings/ravens as you can since Thors do not help to win the air battle (except against mass mutas).
In what way does 1 more armour on Thors change this? The only anti-air situation where Thors will perform slightly better is against unsupported and unmicroed carriers. But if the Protoss player knows how to use carriers leach range and build immortals to focus down the Thors, the Thors will not even be able to reach the carriers before they die. Carriers with ground support will still hard-counter mech and Terrans only option is trying to build more BC/Vikings/Ravens then the opponent invest in Tempest/Carriers/Void Rays.
So what is the point of the Thor change. It does not improve mech. It does not change anything for bio. So why do this change instead of doing something that would actually help mech like increase the cost of Swarm Hosts?
They want to buff mech without eliminating all its weaknesses.
On May 20 2017 17:39 Edpayasugo wrote: What is Thor random delay durations?
great question! i suspect its this: it is a random delay before the Thor fires its weapon for the first time at a brand new enemy it just located in its firing range
if any one knows for sure please jump in and explain!
On May 20 2017 21:01 DieuCure wrote: Mech is a big joke, i dont know why they buff it
if actually go by Blizzard's own words in their Community Feedback thing .. they are buffing the Thor because the Thor is not used very much. The Thor happens to be made in the Factory. How this became a "they're buffing mech" thing.. i dunno. i guess some people get lost in their own thoughts.
i'm glad a Terran ground unit is getting buffed. If this Thor buff makes Terran OP i want Blizzard to nerf a Terran air unit. The Thor is deep enough in the Terran tech tree that a correspoding air unit nerf can make sense. If Terran buffed the Marine or SCV providing a corresponding nerf to a Terran air unit can't work.
How is there a new patch with still no changes made to the Adept? I don't think there is any way I can consistently watch this game for as long as AdeptCraft exists, I just get so disgusted when I watch a player win with pure Adept.
On May 21 2017 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: How is there a new patch with still no changes made to the Adept? I don't think there is any way I can consistently watch this game for as long as AdeptCraft exists, I just get so disgusted when I watch a player win with pure Adept.
The adept was nerfed last patch. -10 hp, to help with adept pheonix in tvp.
Games are rarely won with adept only, if its adept only, the other player usually made a large mistake, such as not scouting.
On May 21 2017 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: How is there a new patch with still no changes made to the Adept? I don't think there is any way I can consistently watch this game for as long as AdeptCraft exists, I just get so disgusted when I watch a player win with pure Adept.
Plenty of games have been won with pure marine or pure ling, why not pure adept?
On May 20 2017 02:40 MockHamill wrote: I am trying to figure out what Blizzard is trying to achieve with the Thor Buff.
Mech has two primary problem that prevents it from being competitive against players who knows how to play against mech.
1. Swarm Hosts. This unit single-handily prevents mech from being usable in TvZ. Adding 1 more armour to Thors does nothing to change this. Mech can still not be used against someone who knows how to abuse 75 gas Swarm Hosts.
2. Anti-air. Mech has no anti-air. If the opponent is going pure air you can not build anything on the the ground to fight this. You are basically forced to throw away all your ground units and and try to build as many vikings/ravens as you can since Thors do not help to win the air battle (except against mass mutas).
In what way does 1 more armour on Thors change this? The only anti-air situation where Thors will perform slightly better is against unsupported and unmicroed carriers. But if the Protoss player knows how to use carriers leach range and build immortals to focus down the Thors, the Thors will not even be able to reach the carriers before they die. Carriers with ground support will still hard-counter mech and Terrans only option is trying to build more BC/Vikings/Ravens then the opponent invest in Tempest/Carriers/Void Rays.
So what is the point of the Thor change. It does not improve mech. It does not change anything for bio. So why do this change instead of doing something that would actually help mech like increase the cost of Swarm Hosts?
Ur a funny guy, Thors are really good vs all Zerg air and after this patch even more
On May 21 2017 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: How is there a new patch with still no changes made to the Adept? I don't think there is any way I can consistently watch this game for as long as AdeptCraft exists, I just get so disgusted when I watch a player win with pure Adept.
Plenty of games have been won with pure marine or pure ling, why not pure adept?
On May 20 2017 17:39 Edpayasugo wrote: What is Thor random delay durations?
So in the game, the cooldown between every attack has a tiny random delay added to it. This is for the sake of making skirmishes a little more exciting (if 2 workers attack each other, the one that attacked second could still end up winning), and also so that the animation's aren't all synced up (which would be kind of ugly). So they just changed the Thor's random delay so that it's slightly shorter so that the unit is a bit stronger.
On May 20 2017 17:39 Edpayasugo wrote: What is Thor random delay durations?
So in the game, the cooldown between every attack has a tiny random delay added to it. This is for the sake of making skirmishes a little more exciting (if 2 workers attack each other, the one that attacked second could still end up winning), and also so that the animation's aren't all synced up (which would be kind of ugly). So they just changed the Thor's random delay so that it's slightly shorter so that the unit is a bit stronger.
On May 20 2017 17:39 Edpayasugo wrote: What is Thor random delay durations?
So in the game, the cooldown between every attack has a tiny random delay added to it. This is for the sake of making skirmishes a little more exciting (if 2 workers attack each other, the one that attacked second could still end up winning), and also so that the animation's aren't all synced up (which would be kind of ugly). So they just changed the Thor's random delay so that it's slightly shorter so that the unit is a bit stronger.
They're talking about the random morph delay, not the random delay on the attack cooldown. Most likely, and for much the same reasons, the Thor morph animation has a random delay (to make it look "better" when a bunch morph at once) and that's what they're reducing.
On May 20 2017 17:39 Edpayasugo wrote: What is Thor random delay durations?
So in the game, the cooldown between every attack has a tiny random delay added to it. This is for the sake of making skirmishes a little more exciting (if 2 workers attack each other, the one that attacked second could still end up winning), and also so that the animation's aren't all synced up (which would be kind of ugly). So they just changed the Thor's random delay so that it's slightly shorter so that the unit is a bit stronger.
What the fuck? Tell me this is a joke.
No, almost everything has a random delay.
It's to desync the units so it doesn't look weird. It doesn't actually affect balance at all, it's purely aesthetic.
EPT
