going between BW and sc2 is incredibly hard and ive kind of just made the decision to stick with SC2 at this point.
in one game my main base literally nEVER RUns out of MINErals and in another game my main is nearly fuckin dry by the time my third is up and running (terran who does not scan often)
in one game i can have lings in my main as my rax is finishing and in the other, they can't (12 pool its not really fast enough). but they can drop speedlings in my base 1min 30 seconds after that. lol. theres just too much random design shit they decided to do in sc2 that deviates from RTS norms/BW norms (basic units cannot circumvent static defenses/defensive positions. lower tech is ideal for lower economy situations, higher tech is ideal for higher economy situations), and when i go back to play any other game i forget about them. but when i go back to play BW i dont need to be thinking about the ten different ways my opponent can ruin my game
On April 07 2017 14:11 c0sm0naut wrote: going between BW and sc2 is incredibly hard and ive kind of just made the decision to stick with SC2 at this point.
in one game my main base literally nEVER RUns out of MINErals and in another game my main is nearly fuckin dry by the time my third is up and running (terran who does not scan often)
in one game i can have lings in my main as my rax is finishing and in the other, they can't (12 pool its not really fast enough). but they can drop speedlings in my base 1min 30 seconds after that. lol. theres just too much random design shit they decided to do in sc2 that deviates from RTS norms/BW norms (basic units cannot circumvent static defenses/defensive positions. lower tech is ideal for lower economy situations, higher tech is ideal for higher economy situations), and when i go back to play any other game i forget about them. but when i go back to play BW i dont need to be thinking about the ten different ways my opponent can ruin my game
TLDR
"I hate that my opponent has many different ways to affect me and I would rather have predictable things to play against"
One of the biggest problems with that game was "build order poker." Because everyone started with a boatload of credits (10000), everyone could skip straight to their build without having to wait for more resources to arrive. Back when I was active, there were three main builds for Nod: Shadow Rush (rush/tech), Crane First (macro play), and Standard (balanced opening).
1. Shadow Rush always won against Crane First. Your Shadow Teams would blow up the enemy's crane instantly, setting him back by 1500 credits immediately. Any economic boost he could've gotten from going crane first was negated by your rush.
2. On the other hand, a Shadow Rush would fail spectacularly against a Standard opening. Standard openings have just enough units to repel a Shadow Rush and then eventually outmacro the Shadow Rusher.
3. Finally, the Standard opening would fall far behind a Crane First opening. It was impossible to do enough damage to catch up to the Crane First opening.
EA abandoned the game long before any solution could be found. I think that the solution was just to lower the starting resource count. Maybe lower it to 5000 (enough for a barracks + refinery + war factory or barracks + two refineries) or 3000 (just enough for a refinery + barracks + one or two infantry squads).
I realized that we're having the same problem with LotV. Because we start with 300 extra minerals in workers, we don't have enough time to scout out our opponents to see what their game plan is. As a Terran player, it is trivial for me to deny scouting to my opponent by walling off, and he now has to guess what my opening is.
Lowering the worker count back to 6 would help alleviate this problem.
On April 02 2017 03:49 Charoisaur wrote: Don't really agree. It's not strategic depth but a coin-flip because you have to make potentially game-deciding decisions before having the opportunity of gathering information. PartinG losing a GSL because he guessed wrong in game 7 was bullshit.
It isn't a coin filp. It is a skill.
The Patriots won a Superbowl believing the Seahawks were going to throw a slant based on their formation and the number of timeout Seattle had (Seattle was on the 1 yard line with the best rushing offense in the NFL, everyone thought they would run the ball). The Seahawks did throw a slant, and the Patriots intercepted the ball and won. But it wasn't randomness, it was preparation and calculated risk taking. But if the Seahawks didn't throw a slant and made their formation look like it, they might have been able run the ball in easily, and win the Superbowl.
So it isn't a coin flip at all. That is the kind of decision making that is present in every game, including LOTV (if I build an Oracle and without knowing I have a Stargate you place a Widow Mine in your mineral line, that isn't a coin flip, as Bill Belichick says, something might just not look right). The problem is that LOTV has removed a lot of the decision making from the game, and that is why it is stale.
You have to micro, have to macro, but the behind the scenes is significantly diminished. The preparation and build order planning, the skill I brought to Starcraft, was beating my opponent with preparation before the game began with unique build orders behind the scenes
It's sad that I can't do exactly what Sun Tzu says all warfare is based on: deception, in a strategy game! I used to like to make it look like I'm taking a third and throw an all-in at you. Or make it look like an all-in while I take a hidden base. It forces you to scout, react, and think, not just mindlessly macro and micro. But while you're thinking on your feet, I'm executing a game plan I made long before the game. And that is how I won a lot games in WOL, by out thinking my opponent because I'm not great at micro or macro.
"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
And that's why the Patriots win, behind the scenes the players are supported by a system that tries to understand what their opponent is going to do, and the counter it, before the game begins.
And thus, the outcome of that play in the Superbowl, just like Parting's GSL 7 game, was decided before the game began. That isn't a coin flip at all. Stating it is disrespectful to the skill and preparation that goes on behind the scene.
There is a reason we had so most repeat GSL Code S champions in the first year of the GSL, the most volatile of the all years in terms of gameplay. Starsense is real and a skill.
what a disgusting way to think about strategy
as far as Im concerned the only justification for Fog of War is removing it would make the game boring
From the Trojan Horse to Hannibal cheesing the Romans to at Lake Trasimene, Trebia and Cannae, to the Battle of Trenton, the Ardennes offensive and Desert Storm... All warfare is based on deception.
Sorry that disgusts you like it has disgusted losing generals for a millenia. Maybe that means you wouldn't be a great general, but I love it, I love to outsmart people that can outplay me.
In a vacuum I like the 12 worker start after playing thousands of games of sc2 I don't need to sit around for 3 minutes before it starts. I've always hated arbitrary waiting in games. I hate the time in Dota, LoL and HOTs before creeps spawn. I hate the time in wow were you regen mana and eat. I hate the time in overwatch were you sit in the spawn. I hate the time in hearthstone I spend waiting for my opponent to Play cards. I hate the time in chess waiting for my opponent to move (why I like blitz).
Some people say arbitrary waiting helps build suspense but it just annoys me. It's like waiting in line at a theme park or the DMV.
With that being said 12 worker start has had negitive effects on the game, especially in regards to scouting.
On April 10 2017 15:42 washikie wrote: In a vacuum I like the 12 worker start after playing thousands of games of sc2 I don't need to sit around for 3 minutes before it starts. I've always hated arbitrary waiting in games. I hate the time in Dota, LoL and HOTs before creeps spawn. I hate the time in wow were you regen mana and eat. I hate the time in overwatch were you sit in the spawn. I hate the time in hearthstone I spend waiting for my opponent to Play cards. I hate the time in chess waiting for my opponent to move (why I like blitz).
Some people say arbitrary waiting helps build suspense but it just annoys me. It's like waiting in line at a theme park or the DMV.
With that being said 12 worker start has had negitive effects on the game, especially in regards to scouting.
None of what you said is arbitrary waiting. So much can be gleaned and learned from from the amount of time people spend to respond to what you do. And the time in MOBA's is for positioning, wards, and scouting. Its super intricate and strategically interesting.
HOWEVER, saying all that, jumping to 12 workers instead of waiting for 16 workers is a fucking godsend.
Has anyone thought about the fact that the reduced strategic breadth witnessed since last year might be linked to the reduced breadth of the actual pro player pool itself ? I mean the pro scene is shrinking, isn't it ?
Not saying it's an absolute truth, but that might be worth considering.
openings based on variations in gas timings has been nearly eliminated other than single vs double gas (gas first barely makes a difference)
zerg macro machine explodes too fast and makes them way more of a defensive/reactionary race than before (in WoL, TvZ was more like... the zerg struggling to live and take new bases while the terran contains and drops them all over, but now it feels like Zerg is exploding safely while terran does some pokes but eventually has to play the attrition game and just defend)
protoss mass gateway style explodes too much vs mech
overall, i think the variety of builds and build matchups has increased which is great (though protoss viability of aggro openers, fast tech, 1 base openers etc. has decreased more recently), as in before in WoL you could only focus on army first, tech first, or econ first, whereas in LotV you can pick 2 of the 3 which allows you to do things like start with an aggro build but it's not all-in, it reduces coin flips and build order losses
but overall, econ is still slightly more favored than it needs to be, so 9 or 10 workers would probably be significantly better and a happy enough middleground
EPT
