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On April 05 2017 13:15 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 08:40 ThunderJunk wrote:
Could also just increase build time of carrier so it's similar to how long it takes to make a BC. Carriers already take longer to build than Battlecruisers, even when factoring in Chronoboost, if I'm not mistaken
I play Protoss.
It is not that simple. On surface, 86s carrier unboosted build time vs 64 BC build time. But to get the first carrier, you need pylon 18s > gateway 46s > cybernetics core 36s (2nd nexus here or before) > Stargate 43s > Fleetbeacon 43s, total 272s (186s from infrastructure). And most of this tech path requires little side track for defense against non tech builds (for widowmine you might need an oracle or few cannons, for liberator you could simple pull probes and ignore). This 2 base build have barely enough gas from 2 base to support 1 oracle and 1~2 mothership core. One can't skip the +1 air attack when core finishes because it would die vs marine pushes. If 1 round of adept is warped in from 3 gate to defend earlier marine push the timing is delayed further.
For Terran, the first BC requires depot 21s > barracks 46s > factory 43s > starport 36s > techlab 18s > fusion core 46s, total 274s (256s if techlab swap) (210s from infrastrucutre). You can say it is on par or faster than with the Protoss build. I doubt Terran can squeeze out more gas units than a tank and 1 or 2 medivac. or a few widowmines.
But Terran would simply die to pushes if he tech up to fusion core too quickly without enough marines/turrets/tanks/medivacs (can't raven since gas restricting). Mind that he needs to put the techlab build time somewhere which means that building is not producing (or producing 2 at a time). It is also very easy to scout Terran from Protoss with stargate, when opponent is at most pumping 3-4 marines at a time. When scouted, Tempest only takes 43 seconds to build (I wouldn't even bother since the first carrier would always have graviton researched and +1 barely finishing and can kite yamato-less BCs, or build more versatile void rays).
So the stats themselves favor Battlecruiser, but the timing and build order (and some maps) favors Protoss if Terran bother to attempt.
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Would it even be practical to rush out Carriers and BCs in either case? I feel like both rushes leave the player vulnerable to too many things, and it would be safer and much more common transition to leave those units as late-game transitions.
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On April 05 2017 11:08 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 09:27 AnossSc2 wrote:On April 05 2017 02:55 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On April 05 2017 02:44 InfCereal wrote:
I think you guys are crucifying 12 worker start too much.
The speed of the game is more attributed to the lower minerals per base then anything else. When you're forced to invest in expansions, you can't really invest in early aggression.
I mean, Zerg doesn't really start the game until your fourth is up, minus some odd timings that pop up now and then. The thing is that after 7 years even if the SC2 would be big and "perfect" there will be exact same ppl complaing about anything.. 12 worker start did not speed the game at all just removed the boring SD SD SD SD start... If it was the case, we would see the same Starcraft 2 as before faster, but it's not the case. Read "A Eulogy for the Six Pool". That just change all the game, all the start, it's always the same opener in PvZ ( Gate - gas - expo - CybCore - gas) always in TvZ ( gas - rax- expo - facto - gas) and same for Zerg, always Hatch - gas - pool. If game was just "removed the boring SD" We would see the equivalent of 6 pool / 8 pool / 10 pool / 15 pool Hatch / 15 hatch - pool and all the gas variation that goes with. Now it's just in ZvZ 13 pool or pool hatch or Hatch gas pool. The only match up with variation is the mirror, in no mirror match up Hatch gas pool. So no the speed of the game are not only attributed to the lower minerals per base, like i wrote on my last topic : at 4 min mark LOTV it's 51 action required for a gas first drop mine, HOTS is 39. It's an average of 4 more action per minute and i don't count the fact that Reaper come 45 second sooner. Which means that I need to focus on my micro faster on LOTV, Which also takes apm. Anoss, I fully respect your opinion I think you make a very compelling argument but I just feel like the way LotV was meant to be directed was through a faster and more evolved starcraft. I and im sure many others would feel the same way that the game picks up in such a fast and fun pace. I love the non-stop action that we have right away in games and while its true ZvZ is cancer if were being honest it always has been. However the only biggest flaw I see in Legacy of the void is the speed at which late game arrives. I rewatched some old hots games and I like those pre mini battles before you had all these upgrades line bane speed, stimpack but I don't think that it is caused by the 12 worker starts. I believe the way starcraft 2 as a game has evolved is for people to want to specialize into their late games. LotV allows you to get to it faster due to the constant demand of trying to build a stronger army and how the game functions. However I think that all match-ups have a big variation and not just mirrors. Especially TvP you can now run cool mech styles and mass BC! thats something I would never think to see in HotS vs protoss.
I understand your point, but late game was present with 6 collectors too, i don't think we need 12 harvester to go late game. And even if you like it we need to understand there is more people who stopped playing than player who invest time on SC2.. so we lose :
- a lot of player
- early game T1 agression
- Paper roc scissor opening with all the variant. 6/8/10/14/15 pool with gas variant, we just hatch first or gas first for terran.
- no new player can try the game
Consequence we have :
- less competition
- less pro player
- less stream on Twitch
if we can't go late game with 6 collectors as easily than with 12 may be we have a balance issue. But i think it's obvious we need to go back on 6 and work the late game with 6 collectors start.
I think the only reason why TvP is more cool on LOTV than Hots ( i totally agree) it's thanks to the new unit : Liberator / Adept and Disruptor. Adpept is strong against bio so Protoss are not longer obliged to rush splash damage. Dirsuptor allow Protoss to poke static terran army ( when Tanks / liberator camp a position) and liberator allow terran an alternativ of Viking to counter the only splash damage on Hots ( colossus, i know we have HT too, but at 12 min mark on hots, Colossus is way better cause no mana depends)
So in my opinion, TvP will stay good on LOTV with 6 harvesters.
If you don't think 12 harvester causes this issue, go read a Eulogy for the six pool. May be you will change your mind 
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As the first big tournament post-patch hopefully the Super Tournament will shed some light on what needs to be fixed balance-wise.
I suspect Adepts will play a starring role.
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On April 05 2017 14:16 eviltomahawk wrote:
Would it even be practical to rush out Carriers and BCs in either case? I feel like both rushes leave the player vulnerable to too many things, and it would be safer and much more common transition to leave those units as late-game transitions.
In PvT the current meta of tech (liberators tanks mines etc) pushes, Carrier rush crush any tech build that does not have enough marines. If Terran fail to do enough damage with tech builds and delayed stim timing for 2 base push Protoss can marginally hold the third base and transition back to storm. For medivac drops of only marines, it depends on when the carrier meet the medivacs, when in transition or unloading the carrier has a clear edge.
In PvZ, it is unthinkable. On some maps ling timing kills it. Any hydra timing will kill it (though it is not the case before they change the speed upgrade and range upgrade, when 1 carrier can kite off first wave of 6~10 hydras with some adepts/zealots). Corruptor timing kills it too. Same with PvT if Terran make conscious decision of build just vikings/or just medivacs and marines. Often enough the Protoss survive tech push or the marine push (though very unlikely) and Terran wouldn't be bothered going BCs they would just pump more marines and contest bases.
Not everyone on ladder react properly on ladder. So in PvT as a fringe meta build Carrier rush is very doable.
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Something I said in a previous thread. I think it is relevant to the current conversation.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 06 2017 07:22 FarmI3oy wrote:
I still maintain that the unlimited unit selection in Starcraft 2 is what caused so many problems for the game. Think about the mentality that players have now that they are able to select an unlimited amount of units. Is there even a point too small skirmishes? Not really.
The idea behind the argument is that because of unlimited unit selection this led people to play more passively into the late game. Controlling max supply in Starcraft 2 is easy as hell in comparison to games like Brood War and Warcraft 3. Naturally, players are comfortable playing until that point. Thus, we got turtle games in Starcraft 2.
The focus of competition was on the different unit compositions and unit count, rather than, mechanical superiority. The game became more like Poker where outsmarting your opponent was how you won. Don't get me wrong, mechanics still matter, but not on the scale they used too. This passive style of games in Starcraft 2 led to the LOTV economy overhaul. Which in effect cuts off the early game and makes the mid game all about harassment and gaining a supply lead.
If a unit selection limit was still in the game I would be willing to bet (because empirically it is impossible to know) that the economy model would not have changed in LOTV.
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So, making another post here because i find the blizzard balance team quite absurd.
Ravens cannot be nerfed without swarmhosts and carriers also being nerfed. Swarmhosts not even being mentioned in this update after 4+ months of being forced to play mech vs swarmhost on ladder is really, really frustrating.
I will agree with anyone here and in the SC2 community that ravens are absolutely bonkers broken, specifically the auto-turret. But it is also the only counter to every asshole on ladder right now that knows how broken the swarmhost is versus mech play.
Swarmhosts should have been mentioned in the last 5 community updates, and why they still aren't yet the raven is brought up for nerfs really shows what has happened to SC2. I do not know if this is just ignorance or incompetence, maybe other people on the forums here can enlighten everyone why swarmhosts are still not addressed after 4+ months of ruining every mech game.
Carriers also have been absurd for far too long, along with adepts, invulnerable nydus, reaper grenade, burrow cast infestor, recent hydra buffs for no reason when carriers were the problem...most recent corruptor gets free banshee speed upgrade.
But sure, ignore all that, and nerf Terran/ravens more. Imo a lot of Terran pros and players should be up in arms that mech units are continuously nerfed with no compensation or parallel nerfs to Zerg/Protoss, and also widow mines being nerfed has brought back every game being mass adept from Protoss.
I wish the community would also start a discussion about bringing back 1500 mineral patches on EVERY MINERAL PATCH to make the game closer to HOTS/Brood War so the pace is slower, as well as bringing back 6 worker start instead of 12.
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"We haven’t been seeing as much Mech play as we would like"
They have literally said this since the first patch of beta. When are they going to learn that it is because bio is so good. The only way to make mech "viable" is to nerf bio. But they can't because then terran is terrible. This balance team cannot be this fucking clueless.
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On April 06 2017 11:28 ZackAttack wrote:
"We haven’t been seeing as much Mech play as we would like"
They have literally said this since the first patch of beta. When are they going to learn that it is because bio is so good. The only way to make mech "viable" is to nerf bio. But they can't because then terran is terrible. This balance team cannot be this fucking clueless.
sorry, but i dont understand this logic.
How would become mech viable, if you would nerf bio too ?
This would simply make both styles terrible 
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Its because BIO was OP since the beginning of the game. But it seemed cool to developers that u can play whole game with tier1 units and how cool it synergies with mules. Then they balanced whole game around BIO and thats why we have so much ballshit fixes arround. If they would nerf BIO they would have to make this game from scratch. So nerfing BIO is impossible. Stop demanding it.
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On April 01 2017 05:57 c0sm0naut wrote:
i really would hate for protoss to have another caster but i have to say i really feel like if adepts used energy whenever they completed a psionic transfer (like 25 energy to cast it, 25 to complete) the unit would be much better balanced. if this unit is changed too drastically however, the entire balance of LOTV will need to be readdressed. relaly feel that this game is balanced primarily around the zergling,marine and adept and if major changes are made to any that the overall viability of complete builds / strategies which have been mapped out over the last year or so is called into question.
overall i prefer no change, and to let the meta develop. its only been a few week after major changes, a few weeks before major changes before that, and a few weeks before major changes before even that. theres too much going on to suss out what is even good right now let alone totally broken. meta happens in waves, we just happen to be at a crashing point right now. innovation will come soon, the meta has demanded it
just wanted to say that i have reflected on the opinion i posted above and feel dubious about what can actually be done to better prepare against this unit that isnt completely game losing in another way (like spending money to put bunkers behind my minerals lines. it works out some games, but a lot of other games i just end up with a bunker behind my OC doing nothing when that could have been another barracks/marines with my pushes which have begun to feel impotent now that I am leaving so many forces at home.m random
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On April 06 2017 13:55 hiroshOne wrote:
Its because BIO was OP since the beginning of the game. But it seemed cool to developers that u can play whole game with tier1 units and how cool it synergies with mules. Then they balanced whole game around BIO and thats why we have so much ballshit fixes arround. If they would nerf BIO they would have to make this game from scratch. So nerfing BIO is impossible. Stop demanding it.
i would like to say i agree with u good sir
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[QUOTE]On April 05 2017 14:00 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 05 2017 13:15 eviltomahawk wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 05 2017 08:40 ThunderJunk wrote:
Could also just increase build time of carrier so it's similar to how long it takes to make a BC.[/QUOTE]
...
It is not that simple. On surface, 86s carrier unboosted build time vs 64 BC build time. But to get the first carrier, you need pylon 18s > gateway 46s > cybernetics core 36s (2nd nexus here or before) > Stargate 43s > Fleetbeacon 43s, total 272s (186s from infrastructure).
...
[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously adding pylon build time to this?
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On April 06 2017 15:55 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 14:00 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
It is not that simple. On surface, 86s carrier unboosted build time vs 64 BC build time. But to get the first carrier, you need pylon 18s > gateway 46s > cybernetics core 36s (2nd nexus here or before) > Stargate 43s > Fleetbeacon 43s, total 272s (186s from infrastructure) Are you seriously adding pylon build time to this?
Cmon, just leave this guy alone in his imaginary world of carrier and bc rushes.
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On April 06 2017 11:03 avilo wrote:
So, making another post here because i find the blizzard balance team quite absurd.
Ravens cannot be nerfed without swarmhosts and carriers also being nerfed. Swarmhosts not even being mentioned in this update after 4+ months of being forced to play mech vs swarmhost on ladder is really, really frustrating.
I will agree with anyone here and in the SC2 community that ravens are absolutely bonkers broken, specifically the auto-turret. But it is also the only counter to every asshole on ladder right now that knows how broken the swarmhost is versus mech play.
Swarmhosts should have been mentioned in the last 5 community updates, and why they still aren't yet the raven is brought up for nerfs really shows what has happened to SC2. I do not know if this is just ignorance or incompetence, maybe other people on the forums here can enlighten everyone why swarmhosts are still not addressed after 4+ months of ruining every mech game.
Carriers also have been absurd for far too long, along with adepts, invulnerable nydus, reaper grenade, burrow cast infestor, recent hydra buffs for no reason when carriers were the problem...most recent corruptor gets free banshee speed upgrade.
But sure, ignore all that, and nerf Terran/ravens more. Imo a lot of Terran pros and players should be up in arms that mech units are continuously nerfed with no compensation or parallel nerfs to Zerg/Protoss, and also widow mines being nerfed has brought back every game being mass adept from Protoss.
I wish the community would also start a discussion about bringing back 1500 mineral patches on EVERY MINERAL PATCH to make the game closer to HOTS/Brood War so the pace is slower, as well as bringing back 6 worker start instead of 12.
Since I don't want to get in trouble with the admins i'm gently asking please stay away from my posts, do not comment under anything I post in here Save your empty balance talks for those intersted enough on your stream.
Thx
User was warned for this post
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On April 06 2017 17:25 PharaphobiaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2017 11:03 avilo wrote:
So, making another post here because i find the blizzard balance team quite absurd.
Ravens cannot be nerfed without swarmhosts and carriers also being nerfed. Swarmhosts not even being mentioned in this update after 4+ months of being forced to play mech vs swarmhost on ladder is really, really frustrating.
I will agree with anyone here and in the SC2 community that ravens are absolutely bonkers broken, specifically the auto-turret. But it is also the only counter to every asshole on ladder right now that knows how broken the swarmhost is versus mech play.
Swarmhosts should have been mentioned in the last 5 community updates, and why they still aren't yet the raven is brought up for nerfs really shows what has happened to SC2. I do not know if this is just ignorance or incompetence, maybe other people on the forums here can enlighten everyone why swarmhosts are still not addressed after 4+ months of ruining every mech game.
Carriers also have been absurd for far too long, along with adepts, invulnerable nydus, reaper grenade, burrow cast infestor, recent hydra buffs for no reason when carriers were the problem...most recent corruptor gets free banshee speed upgrade.
But sure, ignore all that, and nerf Terran/ravens more. Imo a lot of Terran pros and players should be up in arms that mech units are continuously nerfed with no compensation or parallel nerfs to Zerg/Protoss, and also widow mines being nerfed has brought back every game being mass adept from Protoss.
I wish the community would also start a discussion about bringing back 1500 mineral patches on EVERY MINERAL PATCH to make the game closer to HOTS/Brood War so the pace is slower, as well as bringing back 6 worker start instead of 12. Since I don't want to get in trouble with the admins i'm gently asking please stay away from my posts, do not comment under anything I post in here Save your empty balance talks for those intersted enough on your stream. Thx
You pretend like avilo said something wrong. What's the point of this mindless hate ? We all share the same passion, we all love SC2 and that's why we are here. Stop the hate, be open for discussion.
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On April 06 2017 19:13 StraKo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2017 17:25 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On April 06 2017 11:03 avilo wrote:
So, making another post here because i find the blizzard balance team quite absurd.
Ravens cannot be nerfed without swarmhosts and carriers also being nerfed. Swarmhosts not even being mentioned in this update after 4+ months of being forced to play mech vs swarmhost on ladder is really, really frustrating.
I will agree with anyone here and in the SC2 community that ravens are absolutely bonkers broken, specifically the auto-turret. But it is also the only counter to every asshole on ladder right now that knows how broken the swarmhost is versus mech play.
Swarmhosts should have been mentioned in the last 5 community updates, and why they still aren't yet the raven is brought up for nerfs really shows what has happened to SC2. I do not know if this is just ignorance or incompetence, maybe other people on the forums here can enlighten everyone why swarmhosts are still not addressed after 4+ months of ruining every mech game.
Carriers also have been absurd for far too long, along with adepts, invulnerable nydus, reaper grenade, burrow cast infestor, recent hydra buffs for no reason when carriers were the problem...most recent corruptor gets free banshee speed upgrade.
But sure, ignore all that, and nerf Terran/ravens more. Imo a lot of Terran pros and players should be up in arms that mech units are continuously nerfed with no compensation or parallel nerfs to Zerg/Protoss, and also widow mines being nerfed has brought back every game being mass adept from Protoss.
I wish the community would also start a discussion about bringing back 1500 mineral patches on EVERY MINERAL PATCH to make the game closer to HOTS/Brood War so the pace is slower, as well as bringing back 6 worker start instead of 12. Since I don't want to get in trouble with the admins i'm gently asking please stay away from my posts, do not comment under anything I post in here Save your empty balance talks for those intersted enough on your stream. Thx You pretend like avilo said something wrong. What's the point of this mindless hate ? We all share the same passion, we all love SC2 and that's why we are here. Stop the hate, be open for discussion.
Because once in the milion years he says something which makes sense, but than he adds up million clueless dumb things and starts arguing about nonsense with TL ppl, i do not want this post to turn into another sh*tfest
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On April 06 2017 13:57 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2017 13:55 hiroshOne wrote:
Its because BIO was OP since the beginning of the game. But it seemed cool to developers that u can play whole game with tier1 units and how cool it synergies with mules. Then they balanced whole game around BIO and thats why we have so much ballshit fixes arround. If they would nerf BIO they would have to make this game from scratch. So nerfing BIO is impossible. Stop demanding it. i would like to say i agree with u good sir
Bias much, you just don't see Terrans play with Tier 1 units all game long, they build medivacs, widow mines, vikings too. Those are not Tier one.
The real problem is the upgrade path, bio does not synergize with mech upgrades.
If mech was viable, that is what I would play, regardless of the strength of Bio, as I prefer Mech. In fact I play more mech than bio when I think about it, I just suck up the losses.
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Here's the biggest problem with this thread: overstatement.
SC2 has not lost "all its players", and the game hasn't been "ruined" by 12 workers. In fact, the 12 workers has taken much of the downtime out of a game designed to be multifaceted and fast-paced. Yes, in LOTV thusfar the emphasis has been more on macro and harass than on the opening paper/rock/scissors. But as far as I can tell the goal of the balance team is to have early, middle, and late game variety for all 3 races and in all 6 matchups. This community update is an example of that.
I do agree, however, that their progress toward that goal has been too slow and I would like a more aggressive approach. It seems to me if some fundamental design changes are made, two months is a reasonable time to let the meta adjust and see where the game sits.
In the meantime, in my opinion LOTV will be a better game if it's left at 12 workers. But in the meantime, the balance team must work on more variety in builds for each race. Zerg already has lots of variety, the other 2 races not so much. What I want is more action and community updates like this, not less.
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EPT
