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NutriaKaiN
88 Posts
On December 24 2016 21:37 DeadByDawn wrote: Just give me a button that I can press that turns all my CCs into long range PFs for a short while and I will be OK with your MSC. Then we can all skip defense, scouting and the other tenets of RTS games. hahhahahhah you are a blind joke :D | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On December 24 2016 22:26 Foxxan wrote: Also one thing that came to my mind, blizzard said that they will and have changed the economy for lotv, but as i see it, they didnt. They changed the mineral fields having lower minerals. Perhaps they changed the gas aswell with lower gas? Feels so shallow to use the sentence "we changed the economy" in this sense. Blizzard are these days using words as "epic" "great" and other stuff which is just pure pr crap. "We have this EPIC new hero" "We have this EPIC new game" WTF. Let other people form their opinions please.... my opinion is Blizzard makes the best games in the world. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On December 24 2016 23:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote: my opinion is Blizzard makes the best games in the world. And? Your comment is completely irrelevant to my quote, stop harass me. | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
The issue with marine/mine drops is that if you don't have a defense already there (possibly with detection) you loose 16-20 probes (and the game) in 1-2 seconds (this is even more dangerous than oracles, which are often referred to as "gimmick" - the truth is that you can deal with an oracle with a single missile turret, and it's very rare that it gets more than 6-7 kills in the best case scenario). A zerg doesn't leave roaches in the mineral lines to defend drops, it relies on queen to take some time and in the meantime he can run back speedlings to defend (the key here is that the speedling are FAST). For the same reason I think you see much more often blink stalkers used (very cost ineffectively) to defend drops, because you have to blink from one base to an other, and quickly reposition. Also, I really really don't understand how having stronger cannons (w/o MSC) would promote more micro/strategy.... what micro is there behind a static cannon? p.s. btw MSC has limited energy and a very high cost in gas you *can* play around the MSC forcing overcharges and engaging elsewhere, which seems much more interactive than marauder vs cannons  Also, the MSC does basically no damage with its standard attack, I don't think it can be a good reason to avoid marauder openings (because the marauders don't shoot up)..... come on | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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VHbb
689 Posts
On December 25 2016 02:11 Foxxan wrote: Not sure it really matters, the msc is a bad unit(design wise), balance wise its needed but it doesnt matter in the long run i want to play a fun game with good design because with good design i can use my brain. I have to yield to such a compelling argument | ||
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Varbind
Canada113 Posts
On December 21 2016 10:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: The problem is that the carrier seems to be an a move unit atm. It's not all that interesting to watch the gameplay. You have to fix that, there needs to be a massive efficiency gap between Stats using carriers and some random master player using carriers. I am only talking about the actual usage here, not how to get there, etc. This is it, I wish more people would recognize this fundamental problem. All "A move" units should be removed or modified so that they require skill to use. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
there is a little back and forth on this thread about how much DK was responsible for DoW40K bad state after its 3rd expansion. DK arrived at Relic as a recent computer science graduate looking for any kind of job he could find at a game development company. The wheels had been set in motion by the corporate overlords to have 3 expansions in 3 years that included 4 new races and over 60 new units. The guys making those decisions were 3+ management layers above DK. They made those decisions years before DK arrived at Relic. Therefore, DK bares almost no responsiblity for the total mess that DoW40K became during the release of its 3rd expansion in 3 years. It'd be like assigning blame to the guy who installs Windows on the New York Yankees execs computers. Blaming that guy for the New York Yankees missing the playoffs this year. On December 25 2016 00:19 Foxxan wrote: And? Your comment is completely irrelevant to my quote, stop harass me. it is relevant. the adjective "great" to describe their games is not pure crap. their games are great. with everything being microtransactions and digital purchasing consumers can now instantly voice their love of Blizzard games by spending money; Blizzard had its biggest revenue total last quarter. Millions of people agree with me and they agree with their wallets. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
it is relevant. the adjective "great" to describe their games is not pure crap. their games are great. with everything being microtransactions and digital purchasing consumers can now instantly voice their love of Blizzard games by spending money; Blizzard had its biggest revenue total last quarter. Millions of people agree with me and they agree with their wallets. Holy fuck. Are you for real? I said THAT LET THE PEOPLE FORM THEIR OWN OPINION, so my point was TO STOP USE WORDS LIKE GOOD AND GREAT AND EPIC AND SO ON Instead say " we have a new game" and let the people decide THEMSELF WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT IT. Dont use "we have this epic new hero", instead "we have a new hero". ITS A PR STUNT that is BAD AND WRONG IMO. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WEATHER THE GAME IS GOOD OR BAD. ITS ABOUT ME FORMING MY OWN OPINION! BUT YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS DO YOU SO PLEASE JUST STOP QUOTE ME FRO MNOW ON On December 25 2016 02:18 VHbb wrote: I have to yield to such a compelling argument Well your arguments are really crap to say the least. And who the hell cares if cannons are a better interactive structure than the unit msc. In the end the MSC doesnt bring good to the table, THAT IS MY OPINION. Besides i wrote arguments for why i believe so but hey if you want to ignore that and troll me go ahead but iam 100% done with you for 50 years from now on even Infact you showed your lack of intelligence earlier than this and foolish me for giving you a chance. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On December 25 2016 02:20 Varbind wrote: This is it, I wish more people would recognize this fundamental problem. All "A move" units should be removed or modified so that they require skill to use. No, there is a place for A move units. Even with dedicated practice a person can only perform so many actions: micro, cast spells, etc. So A move units, backed by specialist units that you can show your skill with during the battle are fine. A move units that you can form into a death ball, and then A move and watch them destroy everything are bad. With the terrible, terrible damage and hard counters this happens more than it should. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 25 2016 02:34 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Conclusion to the theory that David Kim botched DoW40K there is a little back and forth on this thread about how much DK was responsible for DoW40K bad state after its 3rd expansion. DK arrived at Relic as a recent computer science graduate looking for any kind of job he could find at a game development company. The wheels had been set in motion by the corporate overlords to have 3 expansions in 3 years that included 4 new races and over 60 new units. The guys making those decisions were 3+ management layers above DK. They made those decisions years before DK arrived at Relic. Therefore, DK bares almost no responsiblity for the total mess that DoW40K became during the release of its 3rd expansion in 3 years. It'd be like assigning blame to the guy who installs Windows on the New York Yankees execs computers. Blaming that guy for the New York Yankees missing the playoffs this year. it is relevant. the adjective "great" to describe their games is not pure crap. their games are great. with everything being microtransactions and digital purchasing consumers can now instantly voice their love of Blizzard games by spending money; Blizzard had its biggest revenue total last quarter. Millions of people agree with me and they agree with their wallets. It's just been thrown over the internet that he was involved in DoW and Company of Heroes, from now on I'll just say David Kim is obviously unqualified based on Starcraft 2's success alone, thank you for your dedicated research man, I was wrong and I admit it, there you go. For the record I'm not blaming David Kim on balance or effort, the game is in a great state of balance and David Kim is constantly updating us, but his changes suck dude, get over it, the game isn't dying because of the cost or the anti social nature or any of that crap, it's dying because it's just not good enough to withstand the test of time, that is a product of bad design. It's okay to me if your a DK apologist or not, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But, once again, nobody can claim SC2 is dying because RTS is unpopular, that's bullshit, BW even in the middle of Pacific Time has 7.2K people watching it (at peak times for BW it's usually well over 16K) compared to SC2 having 2.4K and if SoO weren't streaming it would drop down to 1.3K. That's not good no matter how you want to justify it, that means that people obviously want to watch an RTS at least on Teamliquid, but that RTS is Brood War and not SC2. To me, that is the writing on the wall as far as David Kims qualifications are concerned, not saying I could have done any better by any means, but it's not my job to do better, it's his. If he would have designed a better game those numbers would be reversed and that's all there is to it really. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
On December 25 2016 03:35 Beelzebub1 wrote: It's just been thrown over the internet that he was involved in DoW and Company of Heroes, it has. i'll add some more facts to this. DK was born July 24, 1982. therefore, he was 25 when the 3rd and final DoW:40K expansion came out. The decision making around those expansions probably occurred when he was 21 or 22. Relic already had an existing infrastructure when he arrived. He appears no where in the credits. Therefore, he was a bit player at best at Relic during the development of DoW 40K. thanks for bringing the DoW40K stuff up it forced me to do some digging and put some facts and logic together. On December 25 2016 03:04 Foxxan wrote: Holy fuck. Are you for real? I said THAT LET THE PEOPLE FORM THEIR OWN OPINION, so my point was TO STOP USE WORDS LIKE GOOD AND GREAT AND EPIC AND SO ON Instead say " we have a new game" and let the people decide THEMSELF WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT IT. Dont use "we have this epic new hero", instead "we have a new hero". ITS A PR STUNT that is BAD AND WRONG IMO. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WEATHER THE GAME IS GOOD OR BAD. ITS ABOUT ME FORMING MY OWN OPINION! BUT YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS DO YOU SO PLEASE JUST STOP QUOTE ME FRO MNOW ON i care a great deal about the Starcraft franchise. Brood War and SC2 are 2 of my favourite games of all time. Regarding the use of words like "great" and "epic". Blizzard employs standard "puffing" strategies as part of marketing their product. So does 87 bazillion other American companies. I , and my clan mates in Kramerica, think Blizzard makes great games. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Puffing "Puffing is generally an expression or exaggeration made by a salesperson or found in an advertisement that concerns the quality of goods offered for sale. It presents opinions rather than facts and is usually not considered a legally binding promise. Such statements as `this car is in good shape` and `your wife will love this watch` constitute puffing.` including swear words in your posts does not add merit to your argument. | ||
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Varbind
Canada113 Posts
On December 25 2016 03:24 DeadByDawn wrote: No, there is a place for A move units. Even with dedicated practice a person can only perform so many actions: micro, cast spells, etc. So A move units, backed by specialist units that you can show your skill with during the battle are fine. A move units that you can form into a death ball, and then A move and watch them destroy everything are bad. With the terrible, terrible damage and hard counters this happens more than it should. Strongly disagree. All units should be useful without direct control but all units should get extra benefit from direct control. you will never be able to micro everything perfectly, that is where game sense comes in. You have to chose what to control and when. Designing dumb units is horrible for the spectator. There is no need to have a move units. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
i care a great deal about the Starcraft franchise. Brood War and SC2 are 2 of my favourite games of all time. Regarding the use of words like "great" and "epic". Blizzard employs standard "puffing" strategies as part of marketing their product. So does 87 bazillion other American companies. I , and my clan mates in Kramerica, think Blizzard makes great games. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Puffing "Puffing is generally an expression or exaggeration made by a salesperson or found in an advertisement that concerns the quality of goods offered for sale. It presents opinions rather than facts and is usually not considered a legally binding promise. Such statements as `this car is in good shape` and `your wife will love this watch` constitute puffing.` including swear words in your posts does not add merit to your argument. Dogs bark and cats they walk, says santa while giving out presents. Thats an opinion and i love mountains very much | ||
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
I personally think not only does it look silly but it seems like its an oversight by the Blizzard team. P.O. if it has to be a thing, should only shoot units imo. But yeah i'd prefer a protoss design that doesnt rely on a bandaid solution P.O... its just realistically never gonna happen. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Nah, just must be a coincidence. Best example is CnC3 when it came out had the potential to compete with broodwar/SC2. Instead, every game was spam scorpion tanks, seeker tanks, or predator tanks (the OP unit for each of the races). Literally CnC "balance" was "whichever unit is strongest make 100% of that unit and you will win the game regardless of what your opponent is doing." We can see echos of this with SC2 balance - mass adepts, mass ravagers, mass liberators, list goes on. Rather than re-balancing/re-designing some of the units abilities to make them have niche roles or iterate upon poor balance...with LOTV's release we saw the doubling down on adding more insane bs units to the game that can be built en masse. Heart of the Swarm is much more superior of a game to Legacy of the Void soley for the reason that Heart of the Swarm did not focus on attack attack attack or harrassing workers. Heart of the Swarm average game length felt to me around 20-30 minutes for an SC2 game. An epic strategic spectacle that people would watch regardless of whether it was swarmhost bullshit. Legacy of the Void average game length feels to me around 6-10 minutes. An epic shitfest of who can suicide the most units into the opponent's harvesters (notice i use the word harvester because that's exactly how CnC games played out). It doesn't surprise me when many former cnc devs were absorbed onto the SC2 dev team the game was pushed into this direction of faster games, and focused on "killing harvesters." The issue now is Blizzard is 100% never willing to admit to being wrong and never will revert such huge changes to the game economy. I love how before LOTV i warned everyone and reminded everyone that a similar economy change had taken place in CnC3 that basically killed the game and ruined it for many of the hardcore fan base. The strange thing is these game devs apparently don't learn from other RTS developers mistakes (maybe because some of them are the same developers?) and do it again. Another thing i really don't understand is the notion that people wanted the game to be faster or end faster, when literally everyone and their neighbor nowadays complains that the game is too fast and that it needed to be better for casual players. THEN WHY THE FUCK DID EVERYONE AGREE THE ECONOMY CHANGE WAS GOOD? IT MADE THE GAME LESS CASUAL AND MORE UNFORGIVING FOR CASUALS AND PROS ALIKE! The 12 worker start was initially praised for making the game start faster, but people never even analyzed the mathematics or compared timings of LOTV to HOTS 6 vs 12 worker starts. No one, including developers, did the most basic of math to show for example now in every single TvP Protoss is getting their natural nexus and 3rd nexus at insanely early times compared to in HOTS. It's not uncommon in LOTV to see a Protoss on 3 base full saturation around the same time a Zerg is which is absurd to me lol. Anyways, i suppose i'm just pointing out that HOTS games had way more viewership and were "slower" games and if Blizzard were smart they would look at average game length differences between HOTS and LOTV and realize longer games are better for casuals, pros, and viewership. Is it any surprise that MOBA games of LoL, DOTA, and even sometimes HOTS can have an average game length of 25-45 minutes? Or...even yet...there's another well known game that is SLOWER than SC2, MORE TURTLY than SC2, and has long game times...do you guys know what that game is? LET ME BLOW YOUR MIND... BROOD WAR. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
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icesergio
Italy31 Posts
1. Build your army 2. Build ONE siege tank 3. Park your army outside the protoss base so that the pylons are in range 4. Poke up with your mobile army 5. overcharge 6. Get out of range of the overcharge 7. Either stay up enough so your tank has vision or force a second overcharge 8. No more energy 9. Stim up the ramp 10.??? 11. Profit There is an alternative: Build 2 Medivacs, send one to the main, the toss will send the mama core to overcharge Load up your things back into the medivac while also stimming up the ramp with the other plotoon of units ??? Profit. For zerg: Make an evo chamber Use the overlord outside the main to morph it into a dropper overloard Drop 6 lings into his mineral line, the mama core will come up to defend Run lings/roaches ecc. Into the natural ??? Profit There you go, I just solved your game breaking dilemma of bad design and aparently invincible protoss ability | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On December 25 2016 23:11 xTJx wrote: Haven't laddered for 2 weeks, not feeling like playing after they reverted every cool buff they gave zerg... Same here. They took away everything they gave and nerf even more (broodlords and vipers, ultralisks). LOTV reminds me HOTS where Zerg was turned into shitty race. History repeats itself. The only thing that kept Zerg alive during hots era was superior macro and economy but in LOTV its a joke. As Avilo said-Protoss saturates on 3 bases faster or similar as Zerg, Terran gets more from mules. And Zerg has 3 fucking larva which not only slows macro but unit production too. Terran and Protoss feel more swarmy than Zerg. Not funny Blizzard, not funny. | ||
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