|
On December 22 2016 19:48 VHbb wrote:The fun thing is: Z players complain about P T players complain about P P players complain about T and Z the game must be at least quite balanced since everybody is whining and complaining... maybe it's just the holidays  or maybe it's just the SC2 community, whose mantra is: bash Blizzard, we could do better, whine whine whine
In my head it goes like this, ever since WoL:
T players complain about both zerg and protoss lategame and mech being ass.
Z players complain about whatever is going on this month, otherwise complain about ZvZ roach borefest.
P players complain about protoss design.
|
On December 22 2016 19:53 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 19:48 VHbb wrote:The fun thing is: Z players complain about P T players complain about P P players complain about T and Z the game must be at least quite balanced since everybody is whining and complaining... maybe it's just the holidays or maybe it's just the SC2 community, whose mantra is: bash Blizzard, we could do better, whine whine whine In my head it goes like this, ever since WoL: T players complain about both zerg and protoss lategame and mech being ass. Z players complain about whatever is going on this month, otherwise complain about ZvZ roach borefest. P players complain about protoss design.
fact is:
99.9% of T players complaining are bullshit
99.9% of Z players complaining are bullshit
99.9% of P players complaining are bullshit
and im happy blizzard doesnt hear every little brain fart from frustrated lower league players...
|
On December 22 2016 18:12 jimjimmie wrote:
they easily stop medevac push cuz they have inexpensive observer and void ray..
This is the most hilarious part. Nerf the shit out of observers!!!!!
|
On December 22 2016 19:53 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 19:48 VHbb wrote:The fun thing is: Z players complain about P T players complain about P P players complain about T and Z the game must be at least quite balanced since everybody is whining and complaining... maybe it's just the holidays or maybe it's just the SC2 community, whose mantra is: bash Blizzard, we could do better, whine whine whine In my head it goes like this, ever since WoL: T players complain about both zerg and protoss lategame and mech being ass. Z players complain about whatever is going on this month, otherwise complain about ZvZ roach borefest. P players complain about protoss design.
I think everyone complains about protoss design.
Though tbh I think protoss design is a lot better now than what it was in WOL. Still could be a ton better.
|
Yep, I think also that a lot of people complain about "design", when they want to complain about something they find hard to deal with in the game.
For instance, photon overcharge and it's "terrible" design (I never understand why it's a terrible design, however I do understand why it's difficult to play against/around it), or the mega-hate vs the mothership core (it's a hero unit->terrible terrible design!! )
I also agree that complaints/whine from low league players (<GM, so most of us - me included of course) is not so significant.. I find very strong certain units just because I'm not good enough to deal with them, but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed or too strong 
|
have we learned nothing from political correct behaviour and banning balance talk ?
dismissing everything as wood league balance whine is what got us here.
|
For instance, photon overcharge and it's "terrible" design (I never understand why it's a terrible design, however I do understand why it's difficult to play against/around it), or the mega-hate vs the mothership core (it's a hero unit->terrible terrible design!! )
Yes I think its a fine and very healthy dynamic that promotes more macro-games while not preventing harass play from occuring.
I do however take issue with protoss units being kinda unmicroable aside from abillity-spamming.
|
Russian Federation473 Posts
yeah i remember how i cried back in wol: come on, tvp late game unplayable, feedback kills every hightech unit terrans have
and people mocked me: shut up copper whiner, learn to emp your battlecruisers and thors
|
On December 22 2016 20:42 VHbb wrote:Yep, I think also that a lot of people complain about "design", when they want to complain about something they find hard to deal with in the game. For instance, photon overcharge and it's "terrible" design (I never understand why it's a terrible design, however I do understand why it's difficult to play against/around it), or the mega-hate vs the mothership core (it's a hero unit->terrible terrible design!! ) I also agree that complaints/whine from low league players (<GM, so most of us - me included of course) is not so significant.. I find very strong certain units just because I'm not good enough to deal with them, but that doesn't mean they are poorly designed or too strong
The reason people hate photon overcharge is it allows deffense without substantial investment into units. This goes against the idea that it should take an investment In units and production or static d to hold attacks. This allows p to do things like rush there oponent with tech openings, have hardly any units at home and yet be safe against any counter aggression.
Is it nessisary for game ballance, probably, is it an affront to how rts have traditionally expected people to hold aggression yes it is.
|
Reason why i call it bad design, the photon overcharge or mothership core is because it blocks marauder openings, it blocks interaction between the attacking units and the defend cannon while as toss, its a 100/100 investment which is to small compared to what the attacker puts in the attack, while it still wins the fight.
Bad design. Healthy play is many options and interactions, this blocks it all.
Also a-move armees which are super deathballish is not healthy either, unit control, microcontrol is good and healthy gameplay while the opposite is true for amovish deathball type of play.
Therefore i call this bad design as well.
Blizzard can do better, or maybe they cant.
|
On December 21 2016 13:35 SwiftRH wrote:
protoss still cancer to play. blizzard refuses to even address that it is a problem
DK lost it completely some time ago.
|
They really need to stop tweaking everything all the time. Having one stable release would be helpful
|
On December 22 2016 06:50 MockHamill wrote:
Carriers are absurd right now.
I lose 85% of my games vs Protoss if they managed to get Carriers out.
get good.
User was warned for this post
|
On December 23 2016 14:03 Tosster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 13:35 SwiftRH wrote:
protoss still cancer to play. blizzard refuses to even address that it is a problem DK lost it completely some time ago.
Uh, this x10, David Kim never has been qualified to do this job, he obviously has connections. I mean for God's sake his "qualification" was balancing DOW 40K, do you guys know what the pro scene balance was for DOW?
It was 2 out of 6 races being viable because they were brokenly overpowered against the brokenly weak other 4. THAT is who is at the helm of a game that is vastly more complex then DOW ever way.
|
how long did he work for Relic? i didn't see him in the credits for DoW40K
He did not walk into a game designer position off the street. He was promoted into it after working for Blizzard for years.
its clear the changes made to SC2 over the past 3 years reflect a heavy C&C influence. A game he did not work on, but many in the SC2 team did. It is a team effort and not just 1 guy. If it were all about DK there'd be no C&C type stuff.
i'm having fun with the game even though at 125 APM i can climb higher on the ladder with Zerg than i can with Terran. Balance is important to GSLers and WCSers and i hope they balance the game for them. For me the balance is "close enough" and i'm having fun.
My views on balance for players below money making levels is best reflected in this video by Force.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
^ I definitely don't stand behind length of time determining how good you are at a position whether you ascend there through seniority or however. I've had plenty of bad mechanics, bad plumbers, bad doctors who had degrees and qualifications out the ass that still sucked at their job. Balance in the game is fine, it's not about balance, especially (as you posted) for people below all but GM level. I'm mid masters Zerg so I'm not like totally ignorant about the game, I've been here since WOL beta.
It's about blatantly dumb design flaws in the game that make this games player base continuously shrink while BW, an ugly 10 year old + game released in the techology dark ages continues to thrive with 8K or more viewers for the top 5 streamers. Even on a weekend day when there is lots of SC2 streams if you combine them all they don't even equal ONE of the top 5 streamers for BW, that in my opinion is pretty damn sad and is pretty much the proverbial, "Writing on the Wall" when it comes to SC2's future, and that is that it's been replaced by it's predecessor.
Ya know, things like..
Air army superiority? Energy units that do lethal damage like Infestors, Vipers and Ravens? An economy system that does not reward expanding, it merely punishes lack of expanding and this has been explained in depth a thousand times by very high level players. Foolishly implemented band aid solutions like Tankivacs, Invulnerable Nydus, Pylon Overcharge, MULES, Swarm Hosts, Archon toilet?
By the way, I don't even watch BW, I much prefer SC2 both to watch and to play then BW so I'm not sitting here saying, "change sc2 into bw" I'm just saying it's pretty pathetic that such an old game is so much better designed and long lasting then it's successor.
|
if DK worked for Relic for 2 weeks his ability to influence DoW is almost zero. so if you do not know how long he worked for Relic just say so. Without knowing how long he worked for Relic criticizing him about DoW40K with incomplete information is off base.
1991's Super Tecmo Bowl outlasted its many, many sequels. Fire Pro Wrestling 6 man Scramble.. same thing. NHL '94 ... same. it happens all the time and will continue to happen. BL2 outlasted BL:TPS. The debate over "regular Tecmo Bowl" and "SUper Tecmo Bowl" still rages on... 25 years later. Same shit.. different decade.
in watching Pardo and Kim over the years i'd say Pardo > Kim. However, the entire RTS genre's combined revenue does not generate sufficient revenue and profit to buy Pardo's interest. I will be shocked if Pardo's new studio ever goes anywhere near the RTS genre.
|
I don't get how they're still not changing the viper. Nerfing the carrier's interceptor because the moment the unit is buildable it's unstoppable in PvZ, buffing skyterran to ridiculous levels so it's worth something, it all comes down to the viper being an unit thought out by a donkey.
The viper is completely overwhelming against ground mech, forcing it into extreme turtling, but the viper is complete shit against skytoss because it just gets feedbacked or deals one instance of 60 dmg to 300+ hp units.
At some point blizz is gonna need to realise that the viper fits too many roles, while singlehandedly making ground mech terrible, and sucking ass at dealing with skytoss.
|
On December 22 2016 20:17 KOtical wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2016 19:53 Salteador Neo wrote:On December 22 2016 19:48 VHbb wrote:The fun thing is: Z players complain about P T players complain about P P players complain about T and Z the game must be at least quite balanced since everybody is whining and complaining... maybe it's just the holidays or maybe it's just the SC2 community, whose mantra is: bash Blizzard, we could do better, whine whine whine In my head it goes like this, ever since WoL: T players complain about both zerg and protoss lategame and mech being ass. Z players complain about whatever is going on this month, otherwise complain about ZvZ roach borefest. P players complain about protoss design. fact is: 99.9% of T players complaining are bullshit 99.9% of Z players complaining are bullshit 99.9% of P players complaining are bullshit and im happy blizzard doesnt hear every little brain fart from frustrated lower league players...
Why be so condescending?
Blizzard is definitely listening to the "lower league players" - as they should. Since there would be no scene if there weren't any low level players.
The real fact is: Some complaining is just balance whine. But some complaining is also legitimate criticism on Blizzard's approach to both balancing and designing the game. We cannot preemptively judge away every bit of whining and need to look at what's actually completely legit.
Personally I think that they should do all the crazy changes right now. This is off-season, so it's a good time to try out all the "bullshit" ideas floating around. Calling for a conservative approach now is a surefire way to get a stale game again.
|
i agree, if ever there is a time for crazy changes the off-season is that time.
the lower league(silvers, golds) players i play with in my clan think LotV is too complicated with too many units so when we play 2v2s together we play WoL.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
