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![[image loading]](https://d3kq2xhl2rew87.cloudfront.net/upload/DunKology/3-Cyclone.jpg)
On november the 14th blizzard announced big redesign changes for a plethora of starcraft 2 units including the cyclone
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20374453/patch-38-preview-major-patch-for-multiplayer-11-14-2016
However i struggle to find games where cyclones are built as core units especially in tvp/tvt where the unit used to be prevalent pre patch
it seems to me fewer people are building it as an anti air unit and also due to the competition for anti armored ground with the siege tank, it seems like the unit simply serves no role lategame
What are your thoughts?
(their intention was to redesign the cyclone because it was so rarely built, despite some builds using it being seen close to the redesign patch release, but to me it seems 4 range is not the best when it used to have after locked on 13 range with vision)
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they're the marauders of mech so I am pretty sure they will find a role pretty soon
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They are pretty strong early game. Cyclone builds now remind me of the old 1-2 marine/marauder pushes in TvP.
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Cyclone have almost no use except if you do a 1-base all-in.
If you against ground units tanks are almost always a better investment of gas. If you go against air, vikings or mines are better.
The only thing they have going for them is that you can produce them faster then tanks.
They are just not worth the resources. Four tanks are better then five cyclones in almost every situation.
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On December 08 2016 00:54 MockHamill wrote:
Cyclone have almost no use except if you do a 1-base all-in.
If you against ground units tanks are almost always a better investment of gas. If you go against air, vikings or mines are better.
The only thing they have going for them is that you can produce them faster then tanks.
They are just not worth the resources. Four tanks are better then five cyclones in almost every situation.
Do four siege tanks cost as much as five cyclones? if so i think i know what i would rather build!
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Did they buff the antiair in any way since the test map? I remember calculating that the new Cyclone had less antiair DPS than a Queen, so it really isn't useful anymore for that.
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The new cyclone is pretty much useless. Its anti air with its dps & range really offers no strategic benefit vs what little it added before. Please refer to the many other posts on this subject, widely available on TL & reddit for all the reasons why & for suggestions of the many different ways it could be improved. This ends my contribution to the thread, as i only took part to state once again this cyclone is worse then before, in the hopes that 1 more post will help make the difference in getting Blizzard to fix this unit once & for all. Thank you
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The Cyclone sucks because it wasn't turned into what mech needed, which was a solid mobile anti - air platform that would enable mech to respond rapidly to aerial threats which the Thor can't/never can/never could do.
Instead you got the current incarnation that we have today, great for 1 or 2 base gimmick all ins and yields almost no strategic value to the game, i.e. David Kim's ultimate vision for the game of Starcraft.
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The Cyclone redesign really shows the flawed design philosophy of the balance team that is making so many people quit the game.
Instead of buffing a unit that, despite being relatively underpowered still had a clear role and was even spawning some new styles, they redesigned it to basically be an all-in tool and nothing else, that can not do any of the things it did before, basically limiting potential terran openings in tvp and tvt.
It really is obvious DK isn't playing this game. I wonder what he would do if he had to defend a pylon canon rush into an oracle with this new Cyclone.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
i don't like the new cyclone either
it's a strong gtg armor killer, and it vastly overlaps with tank in this role
it has a ridiculously weak all purpose gta weapon
just doesn't feel right
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Russian Federation473 Posts
what i've been thinking about with regards to possible cyclone changes:
buffs
increase dmg from 3+2 vs armored to 5 flat
make lock on hit air with its normal attack - heavy dmg boost, especially vs targets with low armor points
make lock on autocast again
nerfs
cut hp from 180 to 150
increase cost from from 150/100/3 to 150/150/3
make it require a techlab
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well if Blizz would buff anti air of cyclone someway for example if they dont want to increase the damage outpt just lower the time the shots are fired from 14 to 6 for example, they would be just quite good core unit, they have more health than tanks and faster firepower
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I'm playing vs that unit every game... it was stupidly broken before redesign, but now its too weak vs AA, but vs AG ... ? Sometimes I wonder if OP's doesn't want to autowin when the game start
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On December 08 2016 02:38 Beelzebub1 wrote:
The Cyclone sucks because it wasn't turned into what mech needed, which was a solid mobile anti - air platform that would enable mech to respond rapidly to aerial threats which the Thor can't/never can/never could do.
Instead you got the current incarnation that we have today, great for 1 or 2 base gimmick all ins and yields almost no strategic value to the game, i.e. David Kim's ultimate vision for the game of Starcraft.
The thing is david kim has been lying about the thor for years, the reason he removed the warhound was alledgledly because "it stepped on the marauder" but in truth it was because it simply overshadowed the thor, nobody would make a thor when magicboxing completely mitigates it
therefore forcing people to make marines instead which have great anti light and armored dps and are extremely affordable by comparison
so thats the real reason he wont make cyclone into a goliath style anti air unit, because he envies mech due to bio being his brainchild, and he cannot accept that people find bio to be frustrating and a huge upphill fight compared to mech, atleast thats what i think
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I think the cyclone should be more focused on aa. he'll i would love it if it they removed it's ground to ground attack and made it an anti air specialist for mech, the tank and the hellbat are good enough for mech to answer many ground threats (well except swarm host). My opinion make the cyclone the unit you build when you need anti air, this also adds an interesting element of scouting and composition building to the unit, you don't want these units if you are not fighting air so Terran has to scout well and decide how many to make, kind of like Phoenix for Protoss. This also gives thors and cyclones a nice relationship, Thors are slow and expensive but they are a flexible answer to many different units, cyclones are fast and cheep but only shoot up, overlap solved.
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Well, how fun was the previous season to you? Fun for me: Galactic Conquest, Apotheosis; Tankivac, Cyclone....
Why the change at all? It was a blast. Now it's not so much.
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On December 08 2016 08:25 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Well, how fun was the previous season to you? Fun for me: Galactic Conquest, Apotheosis; Tankivac, Cyclone....
Why the change at all? It was a blast. Now it's not so much.
I also miss 3.7 bio play deals so much harder now with the ners to suport units and buffs to banes/infestors even with the ultra nerf it's prity rough.
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On December 08 2016 08:28 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 08:25 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Well, how fun was the previous season to you? Fun for me: Galactic Conquest, Apotheosis; Tankivac, Cyclone....
Why the change at all? It was a blast. Now it's not so much. I also miss 3.7 bio play deals so much harder now with the ners to suport units and buffs to banes/infestors even with the ultra nerf it's prity rough.
Yah, those maps were some of the best ever, and that was one season, now back to Wings of Liberty 2.0.
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On December 08 2016 08:12 washikie wrote:
I think the cyclone should be more focused on aa. he'll i would love it if it they removed it's ground to ground attack and made it an anti air specialist for mech, the tank and the hellbat are good enough for mech to answer many ground threats (well except swarm host). My opinion make the cyclone the unit you build when you need anti air, this also adds an interesting element of scouting and composition building to the unit, you don't want these units if you are not fighting air so Terran has to scout well and decide how many to make, kind of like Phoenix for Protoss. This also gives thors and cyclones a nice relationship, Thors are slow and expensive but they are a flexible answer to many different units, cyclones are fast and cheep but only shoot up, overlap solved.
I agree 100% with this, if it were up to me thats what i think EVERYONE wants...
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On December 08 2016 08:54 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 08:12 washikie wrote:
I think the cyclone should be more focused on aa. he'll i would love it if it they removed it's ground to ground attack and made it an anti air specialist for mech, the tank and the hellbat are good enough for mech to answer many ground threats (well except swarm host). My opinion make the cyclone the unit you build when you need anti air, this also adds an interesting element of scouting and composition building to the unit, you don't want these units if you are not fighting air so Terran has to scout well and decide how many to make, kind of like Phoenix for Protoss. This also gives thors and cyclones a nice relationship, Thors are slow and expensive but they are a flexible answer to many different units, cyclones are fast and cheep but only shoot up, overlap solved. I agree 100% with this, if it were up to me thats what i think EVERYONE wants...
Because ZvMech should be even more stressful to play against  )
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The new cyclone's range and attack style has to be changed for it to be viable after mid game again.
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I never liked the direction of the cyclone. I preferred a unit that's weak in straight up fights but allows for small numbers of tanks to be aggressively in the early to early-mid game ala vultures with spider mines.
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The problem with the cyclone is a bit more complex then many give it credit. Mech needs a way to put pressure and somewhat contest map control. Tanks are out of the question of course, air is an investement that takes away from mech and delays the mid game and push timings; so you are left with hellions that are good against light units (except adepts) and ONLY light units. Here comes the cyclone. It overlaps with the Tank, it's mostly an early-early mid game unit.
Why is this happening? Because of how limited Hellions are compared to Vultures. Vultures with mines were a threat to all ground units, not just light.
Hellions have the limitations that they have. You can't do hellion WM because mines in SC2 build very slow (but are more powerful then BW mines), Tanks are Tanks, so you are left with the shity concept of a mech marauder.
In SC2, 5 factory units (6 if you include hellbats) can not do what 3 units did in BW. It comes from the Browder school o thought that more types of units makes for more exciting gameplay, while in BW it was do more with the same units.
So the Cyclone is a necessary evil, just like the hellbat, that is meant to do in a much more simplistic and cumbersome way what BW units did.
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The ground attack of the new cyclone is solid,
but as many are saying the anti-air feels lacking in many ways... a small damage buff to the anti-air of the new cyclone would certainly allow mech to be more flexible in its compositions
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I just never build cyclones anymore. I didn't build them much before but I definitely found amazing use in utilizing them to defend all ins. If you wanted to play greedily well god damn was the cyclone an amazing unit.
Like I don't know but in this last patch I witnessed some top Koreans make pretty solid mech compositions particularly in TvZ using the old cyclone (mainly Innovation). Note that while it was difficult to pull off this was with the weaker siege tank so the style would be considerably better. And when you think about it it actually added a really cool side to mech where you created a siege line with tanks and liberators and used the cyclone to push forward to lock on to units then kite backwards as needed to receive covering fire from your siege units. It was also pretty good as an anti-air unit to at least help in warding off vipers pushing really deep into your tank line and nullifying your entire army allowing the Zerg to just easily roll you over now that nothing can shoot.
People saying the new cyclone is a more well rounded anti-ground unit are just wrong. Perhaps in the early game as a harassing unit or part of early pushes that is true, but I don't think that's what the cyclone was slated to be; I think it was re-designed (with the intention) to be a more all purpose mech unit that would make mech more viable across the board, but now it just fails when mech needs it to work which is later game after the meching player has maxed out and is ready for his march across the map with all of the tools it needs to take great trades which is what mech is about.
Even in TvP with the new siege tank I think the old cyclone would be better since it would be used similarly to how it was in the TvZ scenario I mentioned earlier. You create a siege line with tanks and liberators and poke forward with the cyclone to lock on to units and kite back as needed to get covering fire and continue pushing forward by leap frogging your siege units.
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The reason you dont see it is because its pointless.
Bio: antiarmor option: marauder
Bio: antiair option: marine
Mech: antiarmor option: tank maybe thor
Mech: antiair option: not cyclone
point is, why would you make a cyclone? the targetting ability now has laughable dps and needs manual targetting.
Clueless balancing team
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On December 09 2016 03:03 Psychobabas wrote:
The reason you dont see it is because its pointless.
Bio: antiarmor option: marauder
Bio: antiair option: marine
Mech: antiarmor option: tank maybe thor
Mech: antiair option: not cyclone
point is, why would you make a cyclone? the targetting ability now has laughable dps and needs manual targetting.
Clueless balancing team
"clueless balancing team"
/thread
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dec 2015 : "OMG cyclone so useless, blizzard sucks"
dec 2016 : "OMG old cyclone was so cool, blizzard sucks"
One day people will understand that 2 mere weeks is not enough to figure out a unit, and until then this communituy will still give me good laughs.
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On December 09 2016 03:25 Gwavajuice wrote:
dec 2015 : "OMG cyclone so useless, blizzard sucks"
dec 2016 : "OMG old cyclone was so cool, blizzard sucks"
One day people will understand that 2 mere weeks is not enough to figure out a unit, and until then this communituy will still give me good laughs.
The old cyclone wasn't bad when it was live, a lot people talked good about it like nathanias, but its stats made no sense and made the unit a gimmick.
It had so much damage that 3 cyclones could destroy a CC in about 10 seconds but so few health that they would die to an oracle if they fighted directly 1v1.
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On December 09 2016 03:25 Gwavajuice wrote:
dec 2015 : "OMG cyclone so useless, blizzard sucks"
dec 2016 : "OMG old cyclone was so cool, blizzard sucks"
One day people will understand that 2 mere weeks is not enough to figure out a unit, and until then this communituy will still give me good laughs.
You just can't please everyone on this forum  . I honestly think people just want the goliaths back (or at least some variation of that for cheap AA) and blizzard should just do that. Give hellions the ability to drop spider mines and mech will be complete and everyone will be happy. Maybe the problem is not mech, maybe the problem is that air units in sc2 are just either too strong.
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On December 09 2016 03:32 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2016 03:25 Gwavajuice wrote:
dec 2015 : "OMG cyclone so useless, blizzard sucks"
dec 2016 : "OMG old cyclone was so cool, blizzard sucks"
One day people will understand that 2 mere weeks is not enough to figure out a unit, and until then this communituy will still give me good laughs. You just can't please everyone on this forum . I honestly think people just want the goliaths back (or at least some variation of that for cheap AA) and blizzard should just do that. Give hellions the ability to drop spider mines and mech will be complete and everyone will be happy. Maybe the problem is not mech, maybe the problem is that air units in sc2 are just either too strong.
Air superiority is one of the primary reasons mech sucks in LOTV, alongside the new economy forcing Mech to spread itself out too much and units like the Viper (I am Zerg) that seem to exist for no other reason then to hard counter tanks. Even in todays military, Tanks are powerful weapons of war but they get demolished by combat jets.
Air units were cool in BW because they were high cost, high priority units that sucked balls in mass but did their job in small squads. Now we have the opposite effect, how can tank based mech play ever be good when Protoss and Zerg maxed out air armies require a similar maxed out air army to defeat?
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On December 08 2016 18:25 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The problem with the cyclone is a bit more complex then many give it credit. Mech needs a way to put pressure and somewhat contest map control. Tanks are out of the question of course, air is an investement that takes away from mech and delays the mid game and push timings; so you are left with hellions that are good against light units (except adepts) and ONLY light units. Here comes the cyclone. It overlaps with the Tank, it's mostly an early-early mid game unit.
Why is this happening? Because of how limited Hellions are compared to Vultures. Vultures with mines were a threat to all ground units, not just light.
Hellions have the limitations that they have. You can't do hellion WM because mines in SC2 build very slow (but are more powerful then BW mines), Tanks are Tanks, so you are left with the shity concept of a mech marauder.
In SC2, 5 factory units (6 if you include hellbats) can not do what 3 units did in BW. It comes from the Browder school o thought that more types of units makes for more exciting gameplay, while in BW it was do more with the same units.
So the Cyclone is a necessary evil, just like the hellbat, that is meant to do in a much more simplistic and cumbersome way what BW units did.
I thought Terrans in Broodwar used Bio for early pressure, then transition into Mech, in fact v's Zerg Bio is now the preferred route going off what the current BW tourneys i have seen
Also whats this obsession to build only 2 unit types all game to fuck over every other composition in the game, how boring and stale that has to be both to play and play against
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On December 09 2016 04:00 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 18:25 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The problem with the cyclone is a bit more complex then many give it credit. Mech needs a way to put pressure and somewhat contest map control. Tanks are out of the question of course, air is an investement that takes away from mech and delays the mid game and push timings; so you are left with hellions that are good against light units (except adepts) and ONLY light units. Here comes the cyclone. It overlaps with the Tank, it's mostly an early-early mid game unit.
Why is this happening? Because of how limited Hellions are compared to Vultures. Vultures with mines were a threat to all ground units, not just light.
Hellions have the limitations that they have. You can't do hellion WM because mines in SC2 build very slow (but are more powerful then BW mines), Tanks are Tanks, so you are left with the shity concept of a mech marauder.
In SC2, 5 factory units (6 if you include hellbats) can not do what 3 units did in BW. It comes from the Browder school o thought that more types of units makes for more exciting gameplay, while in BW it was do more with the same units.
So the Cyclone is a necessary evil, just like the hellbat, that is meant to do in a much more simplistic and cumbersome way what BW units did. I thought Terrans in Broodwar used Bio for early pressure, then transition into Mech, in fact v's Zerg Bio is now the preferred route going off what the current BW tourneys i have seen Also whats this obsession to build only 2 unit types all game to fuck over every other composition in the game, how boring and stale that has to be both to play and play against
In TvZ yes; in TvP and TvT there were 1-4 marines for defense purposes, outside of some very rare rushes. Vultures were the harass AND pressure unit.
It's not an obsession, it's what the past has thought us works best. All of BW is like this, and for SC2, most people i know think that TvT and TvZ WOL were the best so far; that's marine-tank-med vs marine-tank-med, bio vs hellion-tank-viking and ling-bling-muta vs marine-tank-med. Mostly 2 fighting units that complement each other and a support unit. As a general observation, i see that the more unit types you need for an army to function, the more likely it becomes that deathballs are the way to go, since so many units depend on so many units.
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EPT
