EPTCyclone redesign feels weaker than old cyclone? - Page 2
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WidowMineHero
New Zealand143 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
Why is this happening? Because of how limited Hellions are compared to Vultures. Vultures with mines were a threat to all ground units, not just light. Hellions have the limitations that they have. You can't do hellion WM because mines in SC2 build very slow (but are more powerful then BW mines), Tanks are Tanks, so you are left with the shity concept of a mech marauder. In SC2, 5 factory units (6 if you include hellbats) can not do what 3 units did in BW. It comes from the Browder school o thought that more types of units makes for more exciting gameplay, while in BW it was do more with the same units. So the Cyclone is a necessary evil, just like the hellbat, that is meant to do in a much more simplistic and cumbersome way what BW units did. | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
but as many are saying the anti-air feels lacking in many ways... a small damage buff to the anti-air of the new cyclone would certainly allow mech to be more flexible in its compositions | ||
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Kovzirg
126 Posts
Like I don't know but in this last patch I witnessed some top Koreans make pretty solid mech compositions particularly in TvZ using the old cyclone (mainly Innovation). Note that while it was difficult to pull off this was with the weaker siege tank so the style would be considerably better. And when you think about it it actually added a really cool side to mech where you created a siege line with tanks and liberators and used the cyclone to push forward to lock on to units then kite backwards as needed to receive covering fire from your siege units. It was also pretty good as an anti-air unit to at least help in warding off vipers pushing really deep into your tank line and nullifying your entire army allowing the Zerg to just easily roll you over now that nothing can shoot. People saying the new cyclone is a more well rounded anti-ground unit are just wrong. Perhaps in the early game as a harassing unit or part of early pushes that is true, but I don't think that's what the cyclone was slated to be; I think it was re-designed (with the intention) to be a more all purpose mech unit that would make mech more viable across the board, but now it just fails when mech needs it to work which is later game after the meching player has maxed out and is ready for his march across the map with all of the tools it needs to take great trades which is what mech is about. Even in TvP with the new siege tank I think the old cyclone would be better since it would be used similarly to how it was in the TvZ scenario I mentioned earlier. You create a siege line with tanks and liberators and poke forward with the cyclone to lock on to units and kite back as needed to get covering fire and continue pushing forward by leap frogging your siege units. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
Bio: antiarmor option: marauder Bio: antiair option: marine Mech: antiarmor option: tank maybe thor Mech: antiair option: not cyclone point is, why would you make a cyclone? the targetting ability now has laughable dps and needs manual targetting. Clueless balancing team | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 09 2016 03:03 Psychobabas wrote: The reason you dont see it is because its pointless. Bio: antiarmor option: marauder Bio: antiair option: marine Mech: antiarmor option: tank maybe thor Mech: antiair option: not cyclone point is, why would you make a cyclone? the targetting ability now has laughable dps and needs manual targetting. Clueless balancing team "clueless balancing team" /thread | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
dec 2016 : "OMG old cyclone was so cool, blizzard sucks" One day people will understand that 2 mere weeks is not enough to figure out a unit, and until then this communituy will still give me good laughs. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On December 09 2016 03:25 Gwavajuice wrote: dec 2015 : "OMG cyclone so useless, blizzard sucks" dec 2016 : "OMG old cyclone was so cool, blizzard sucks" One day people will understand that 2 mere weeks is not enough to figure out a unit, and until then this communituy will still give me good laughs. The old cyclone wasn't bad when it was live, a lot people talked good about it like nathanias, but its stats made no sense and made the unit a gimmick. It had so much damage that 3 cyclones could destroy a CC in about 10 seconds but so few health that they would die to an oracle if they fighted directly 1v1. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1739 Posts
On December 09 2016 03:25 Gwavajuice wrote: dec 2015 : "OMG cyclone so useless, blizzard sucks" dec 2016 : "OMG old cyclone was so cool, blizzard sucks" One day people will understand that 2 mere weeks is not enough to figure out a unit, and until then this communituy will still give me good laughs. You just can't please everyone on this forum  . I honestly think people just want the goliaths back (or at least some variation of that for cheap AA) and blizzard should just do that. Give hellions the ability to drop spider mines and mech will be complete and everyone will be happy. Maybe the problem is not mech, maybe the problem is that air units in sc2 are just either too strong. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 09 2016 03:32 phodacbiet wrote: You just can't please everyone on this forum . I honestly think people just want the goliaths back (or at least some variation of that for cheap AA) and blizzard should just do that. Give hellions the ability to drop spider mines and mech will be complete and everyone will be happy. Maybe the problem is not mech, maybe the problem is that air units in sc2 are just either too strong. Air superiority is one of the primary reasons mech sucks in LOTV, alongside the new economy forcing Mech to spread itself out too much and units like the Viper (I am Zerg) that seem to exist for no other reason then to hard counter tanks. Even in todays military, Tanks are powerful weapons of war but they get demolished by combat jets. Air units were cool in BW because they were high cost, high priority units that sucked balls in mass but did their job in small squads. Now we have the opposite effect, how can tank based mech play ever be good when Protoss and Zerg maxed out air armies require a similar maxed out air army to defeat? | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On December 08 2016 18:25 Sapphire.lux wrote: The problem with the cyclone is a bit more complex then many give it credit. Mech needs a way to put pressure and somewhat contest map control. Tanks are out of the question of course, air is an investement that takes away from mech and delays the mid game and push timings; so you are left with hellions that are good against light units (except adepts) and ONLY light units. Here comes the cyclone. It overlaps with the Tank, it's mostly an early-early mid game unit. Why is this happening? Because of how limited Hellions are compared to Vultures. Vultures with mines were a threat to all ground units, not just light. Hellions have the limitations that they have. You can't do hellion WM because mines in SC2 build very slow (but are more powerful then BW mines), Tanks are Tanks, so you are left with the shity concept of a mech marauder. In SC2, 5 factory units (6 if you include hellbats) can not do what 3 units did in BW. It comes from the Browder school o thought that more types of units makes for more exciting gameplay, while in BW it was do more with the same units. So the Cyclone is a necessary evil, just like the hellbat, that is meant to do in a much more simplistic and cumbersome way what BW units did. I thought Terrans in Broodwar used Bio for early pressure, then transition into Mech, in fact v's Zerg Bio is now the preferred route going off what the current BW tourneys i have seen Also whats this obsession to build only 2 unit types all game to fuck over every other composition in the game, how boring and stale that has to be both to play and play against | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 09 2016 04:00 Topdoller wrote: I thought Terrans in Broodwar used Bio for early pressure, then transition into Mech, in fact v's Zerg Bio is now the preferred route going off what the current BW tourneys i have seen Also whats this obsession to build only 2 unit types all game to fuck over every other composition in the game, how boring and stale that has to be both to play and play against In TvZ yes; in TvP and TvT there were 1-4 marines for defense purposes, outside of some very rare rushes. Vultures were the harass AND pressure unit. It's not an obsession, it's what the past has thought us works best. All of BW is like this, and for SC2, most people i know think that TvT and TvZ WOL were the best so far; that's marine-tank-med vs marine-tank-med, bio vs hellion-tank-viking and ling-bling-muta vs marine-tank-med. Mostly 2 fighting units that complement each other and a support unit. As a general observation, i see that the more unit types you need for an army to function, the more likely it becomes that deathballs are the way to go, since so many units depend on so many units. | ||
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