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On November 21 2016 07:02 MockHamill wrote:
This must be the first map pool I have not wished to have 4 vetoes. It may not even be necessary to use all 3.
Whirlwind is the only really bad map in the pool since it extremely anti-mech and pro-zerg due to its size.
The rest of maps seem fine.
it's bad because it's anti-mech?
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/maps/550_Crux_Whirlwind
Win rates look pretty even relative to the other maps like apotheosis.
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Rising are you seriously quoting old WoL/HotS stats for arguing LotV map balance? Is this bait? Or simply a bad, bad meme?
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should be at least 2 4p maps
i love them
I am very happy with the map pool though, its fantastic.
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On November 21 2016 07:50 Uvantak wrote:
Rising are you seriously quoting old WoL/HotS stats for arguing LotV map balance? Is this bait? Or simply a bad, bad meme?
No, you make a good point. I concede to that, but can a map be bad because it's poor for mech?
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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/b/b9/Ohana-4-ESV_Ohana_LE.jpg/400px-Ohana-4-ESV_Ohana_LE.jpg)
I wish we got ohana back. I loved this map.
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I can't even look at it without hearing "It means family" in my head.
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I think ohana is just too wol/hots to work. Way more so than even daybreak. Like good luck ever taking a 5th or 6th. I did love the map too, though.
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On November 21 2016 11:33 iMrising wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2016 07:50 Uvantak wrote:
Rising are you seriously quoting old WoL/HotS stats for arguing LotV map balance? Is this bait? Or simply a bad, bad meme? No, you make a good point. I concede to that, but can a map be bad because it's poor for mech?
Good question, I would answer that if DevTeam wants to make Mech a dominant style of play over Bio, therefore having a Map that strongly hurts Mech, would ergo also hurt the entire balance stats of the Terran race, and the grand sc2 community considers maps that are unbalanced to be of less quality than otherwise, so yeah, in the eyes of the grand sc2 community having a map that hurts Mech on today's day and age would mean that Whirlwind is "a bad map".
That said, Whirlwind will be one of the maps Mech will be balanced around or at least I would hope so, meaning that players and the metagame on that map will center around exploiting Mech's weaknesses, by doing that DevTeam can then be aware of said weaknesses and buff or nerf in order to achieve a good balance of the Mech comp in the map and others like it.
What I'm saying is that even when Whirlwind might arguably be a bad Mech map for its sheer size, because of this very same thing, it would expose Mech weaknesses which can then be identified and buffed accordingly in order to balance out the composition on other big and historically weak mech maps.
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wow this map pool
hoping they will find a way to make it better for lotv instead of a direct copy paste
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On November 22 2016 00:53 Uvantak wrote:
What I'm saying is that even when Whirlwind might arguably be a bad Mech map for its sheer size, because of this very same thing, it would expose Mech weaknesses which can then be identified and buffed accordingly in order to balance out the composition on other big and historically weak mech maps.
I think it's going to be hard to tune mech to the point where it's good or decent on large maps like Whirlwind yet also not OP on smaller maps at the same time.. for the simple reason that tanks have been the cornerstone of mech and clearly Blizzard wants them to continue to be. Tanks are slow, and will be even slower once tankivac is gone. So if a tank mech comp can be good on whirlwind then pssh.
Now if they accept that mech doesn't have to have tanks and they make sure that some non-tank mech comps are viable, then maybe.
I realize this is somewhat oversimplifying the issue but I think that may be what it comes down to ultimately.
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if mech is ever good on Whirlwind, then it means mech is overpowered
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On November 22 2016 05:42 Fatam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2016 00:53 Uvantak wrote:
What I'm saying is that even when Whirlwind might arguably be a bad Mech map for its sheer size, because of this very same thing, it would expose Mech weaknesses which can then be identified and buffed accordingly in order to balance out the composition on other big and historically weak mech maps. I think it's going to be hard to tune mech to the point where it's good or decent on large maps like Whirlwind yet also not OP on smaller maps at the same time.. for the simple reason that tanks have been the cornerstone of mech and clearly Blizzard wants them to continue to be. Tanks are slow, and will be even slower once tankivac is gone. So if a tank mech comp can be good on whirlwind then pssh. Now if they accept that mech doesn't have to have tanks and they make sure that some non-tank mech comps are viable, then maybe.I realize this is somewhat oversimplifying the issue but I think that may be what it comes down to ultimately.
I consider that that phrase might be a projection on your end of the on the ground situation. DevTeam has stated they want the new Cyclone to be a more or less core option for Factory based compositions, while the community has been clamoring for a stronger tank even before the game was actually released on 2010 (WoL Beta nerf to tanks).
On my eyes, it is the Devteam the ones that are pushing for a less tank focused composition, while community are the ones asking for making Mech a more static comp on the lines of BW Mech, and I can't really blame them, Bio historically has been the composition that is more terrain independent, while mech (and factory units) was the more positional focused comp. And by making Mech a more terrain & tank independent composition it starts to get into overlap with Bio territory.
On November 22 2016 05:44 Ej_ wrote:
if mech is ever good on Whirlwind, then it means mech is overpowered
Yeah, I think that might be a decent assessment, not 100% true, but a fair point. Yet, when balancing Mech you can't be tied to thinking on a single map. I'm not vouching for making mech good on whirlwind, but only making sure that mech actually kind of works on bigger more open maps, where Whirlwind is a good archetype of. Not to mention that finding a way to make Mech work, might end up opening new windows into map design and concept. I think that might be something worth exploring.
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Really dislike this map pool. I know these maps worked in the past but this is the new econ. They need to add couple more bases to each of these maps. Even being in Gold league most my games where i don't die to something stupid, go to about 5 bases.
..most the time i'm too afraid committing to an attack to finish the game as zerg. So i take literally 7-8 bases, Creep all the vacant ones and wait and trade armies with them till they leave.
Guess i have to figure how to actually take good fights in to defensive positions vs 40 +30 armor dmg tanks.
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On November 23 2016 09:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
Really dislike this map pool. I know these maps worked in the past but this is the new econ. They need to add couple more bases to each of these maps. Even being in Gold league most my games where i don't die to something stupid, go to about 5 bases.
..most the time i'm too afraid committing to an attack to finish the game as zerg. So i take literally 7-8 bases, Creep all the vacant ones and wait and trade armies with them till they leave.
Guess i have to figure how to actually take good fights in to defensive positions vs 40 +30 armor dmg tanks.
Spread, Vipers, burrowed Infestors, Brood Lords, Swarm Host, lots of new options to explore
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Daybreak LE:
⦁ Good map for two base all in
⦁ Bad map for 3 rax reaper TvT, but can be done TvZ
Vaani Research Station:
⦁ Cheese map
⦁ Early move main base to gold
⦁ ^Out of vision of general scout path
Echo LE:
⦁ 2 Base
⦁ 3 rax reaper is okay TvZ, not TvT
⦁ Bunker Rush
Overgrowth LE:
⦁ Perfect map for 3 rax reaper in TvT and TvZ
Habitation Station LE:
⦁ Bad map for 3 rax reaper TvT
⦁ Not alot of surface area
⦁ Can do 4 rax marine all in
Whirlwind LE:
⦁ Perfect map for 2/3 base Terran dropstyle
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This map pool is awesome, first time ever that I don't want to veto any map ! Of course those maps are quite clearly not made for LotV, but every map is beautiful, brings back great memories, so it feels good to play on them even if they're not perfectly balanced.
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wow this map pool is making me want to come back to the game
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Interesting map as far as mech goes. Especially Nathanias' TvZ Raven harass into mech games. It's quite a refreshing style. If you guys subscribe to his channel, you can get his replays. Yesterday he played a game where he killed 229 drones :D. I'm getting motivated to play more again because of that map pool ! Except Overgrowth.....this map should've remained dead.
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EPT
