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Watching shoutcraft kings gumiho vs byun, gumigod knocked down byun with some amazing mech play.
And from that game, we could notice that gumiho built up his mech play by opening with quite a few cyclones to assure himself air dominance with his viking production, therefore allowing him to build medivacs and be responsive and mobile with hellbats in medivacs.
The fact is that building few cyclones allowed gumiho to prevent byun to go straight for liberators, or mass vikings to go straight into ravens/vikings. Byun got outplayed throughout the game, but this initial niche role makes mech so much more viable and infinitely less turtly. Gumiho actually managed to push out on the map with mech against bio, which is sadly rare enough to be noticed.
Making the cyclone more tanky, less expansive (at least supply-wise) while maybe nerfing its lock cooldown and/or range and/or damage would allow the cyclone to retain this core and essential role, while opening the unit for uses in other matchups/stages of the game.
Compared to the complete lack of purpose of the test map's version, we can see that this needs to happen.
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On October 15 2016 06:48 yubo56 wrote:
Disruption web is already at the viper, don't wanna dupe abilities across races.
Conceptually disagree with tempests being a support-like spellcaster, the only massive support spellcaster in the game is the mothership no? BCs Yamato is basically a damage spell, seems reasonable compared to this.
I like the idea proposed in some other thread, move oracle stasis ward to be much faster casting. Support spells belong on the oracle, not the tempest, and stasis will accomplish a similar job to the current tempest spell.
Many ways to tweak, e.g. make oracles invulnerable when creating wards, since they would probably die trying to lay down wards in battle. And maybe make the wards visible, if this is proving too strong. Point being, lots of freedom with existing spells in the game, no need to turn the tempest, a poke unit, into a spellcaster too.
They're different spells. Disruption Web actually prevents units from attacking underneath it. Blinding Cloud just reduces range to 1 but does not prevent attacking.
On October 15 2016 23:05 JackONeill wrote:
The cyclone just needs to be kept as it is in the current game (without test map changes) but :
- give it 160 health
- make it 3 pop instead of 4
- reduce the range of the lock to 13 or 12 instead of 15, and increase its cooldown to 6 secs instead of 4
and maybe :
- make it reactorable
- cost ajusted to 150/75
- remove the damage upgrade
This would make the cyclone's lock less of a spammable autocast, while keeping the base design and niche role (AA/skirmisher/chaser), and making it have a less terrible health over supply/cost ratio.
I think they hesitate to buff the AA of the Cyclone because mech would be too all-round and no one would ever play bio again.
Best solution I can think of is moving the Lock-On to the Thor and merge it with High Impact Payload (the transformation time would be dropped). So, the Thor would have two strong AA attacks: a normal AA vs air with splash and a spell based AA for single targets.
Then remove the AA of the Cyclone and remove Hellbats. Now Mech has a massable all-round damage dealer (Cyclone), light unit counter (Hellion), ground splash (Tanks) and a strong AA option (Thor). However, since Thors are very expensive you have to carefully balance them with the rest of your army. If build to little, obvious air based counters open up; on the flipside, if you build too many you might not have sufficient ground DPS.
Seems like a very clear and stable dynamic to me.
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"I think they hesitate to buff the AA of the Cyclone because mech would be too all-round and no one would ever play bio again."
It's ok for mech to be well rounded. Having a strong AA on the cyclone would only mean that air transitions against mech must happen in the later stages of the game. Right now, mech vs mech on the test map is mass viking ravens => libs with massive turtle, TvP is protoss massing phenixes right away, straight into tempest, and TvZ is zerg going into mutas => SHs => broodlords.
If the cyclone remains quite fragile for its cost, therefore being heavily countered by anti armored units in frontal situations (hydras, immortals, marauders for instance), while cutting into the "late game units" budget from the mech player, i don't see why it'd be bad in any way for the game.
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On October 15 2016 02:58 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So Tempest get a stun storm instead of a psistorm...
Honestly I don't think the Tempest needs any ability. Keep the nerfed ground range and leave it. Anything else and we're just going to see mass tempest late game against since its objectively better than the carrier.
It's mostly to improve the toss vs tank line late game scenario. The ability won't reallly do much against other units because it has such long cast time. It will mostly serve as area control in those scenarios
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after additional play-testing with the cyclone i've changed my vote on the Cyclone.
On October 15 2016 06:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
4. The Cyclone - The new cyclone is much more interesting and better designed than the old one. Terran does not need another unit that has to always be micro'd. Terran is the only race that doesn't have reliable tanking units and therefore is dependent on microing every unit. The live cyclone is so heavily dependent on micro that it's just gimmicky. It doesn't work with too many other units or compositions. These kind of units have a place, but Terran has greater needs in terms of mech and the transition to late game, so it fits better there. The hybrid ground dps and tankiness plus the anti-air potential (raised with micro) is a better design decision for the cyclone.
generally speaking, i agree with the above opinion.
i vote for the PTR Cyclone.
PTR Cyclone > Live Cyclone
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making mech well rounded wouldn't change much, terrans will still use bio because bio is easy and strong as hell, it's not like it's getting nerfed. I can guarantee you that if mech received a goliath type unit, a well rounded ground/air attacker, bio would be just fine and remain relevant for the rest of SC2's lifespan.
we've seen bio as the main strength of terran since 2010, would it really be so bad if mech becomes used a bit more than bio in 2016/17? generally, mechs weakness will be mobility and bio will require more multitasking, terrans will simply choose whatever style they want to represent.
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On October 16 2016 02:20 JuanDi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 02:58 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So Tempest get a stun storm instead of a psistorm...
Honestly I don't think the Tempest needs any ability. Keep the nerfed ground range and leave it. Anything else and we're just going to see mass tempest late game against since its objectively better than the carrier. It's mostly to improve the toss vs tank line late game scenario. The ability won't reallly do much against other units because it has such long cast time. It will mostly serve as area control in those scenarios
yea, against a race that had no trouble breaking down tank line
Anyway current cyclone with few buff or improvement to health would be way better than the patch one that cant handle air and is only really good for early game.
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On October 15 2016 07:35 -NegativeZero- wrote:
in case blizzard reads this thread:
CYCLONE NEEDS TO BE STRONG VS AIR. THIS IS THE ROLE THAT MECH IS MISSING RIGHT NOW.
Lol what a JOKE. Terran already has good options for anti air. Zerg doesn't even good anti-air options right now, whether they are air units or ground units.
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On October 16 2016 08:53 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 07:35 -NegativeZero- wrote:
in case blizzard reads this thread:
CYCLONE NEEDS TO BE STRONG VS AIR. THIS IS THE ROLE THAT MECH IS MISSING RIGHT NOW. Lol what a JOKE. Terran already has good options for anti air. Zerg doesn't even good anti-air options right now, whether they are air units or ground units.
hydralisk got buffed in test map
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On October 16 2016 08:00 emc wrote:
making mech well rounded wouldn't change much, terrans will still use bio because bio is easy and strong as hell, it's not like it's getting nerfed. I can guarantee you that if mech received a goliath type unit, a well rounded ground/air attacker, bio would be just fine and remain relevant for the rest of SC2's lifespan.
we've seen bio as the main strength of terran since 2010, would it really be so bad if mech becomes used a bit more than bio in 2016/17? generally, mechs weakness will be mobility and bio will require more multitasking, terrans will simply choose whatever style they want to represent.
And that is bad becuase?
The point isn't to force them to go one way or another (wich is what happens currently, forcing players to go bio everygame), but to give them choices.
I however wouldn't like mech to be used more than bio because of patch changes or because it is better in a certain MU. However I think it would be cool to make both as strong but make it map dependant, like this map is really good for mech or that map is really bad for mech and good for bio, etc. That way it adds variety, forces players to use both and would create the option of more metagame and mindgames, like player doing a strong mech timing but the opponent didn't saw it comming because it was a bad map for mech (this actually happened in HotS were players would do 2 base mech pushes in bad mech maps and catch the opponent off guard or do fake mech oppeners and transition to bio in good mech maps).
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Why not increase the supply from 4 to 6 and just leave it be?
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On October 16 2016 03:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:after additional play-testing with the cyclone i've changed my vote on the Cyclone. Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 06:00 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
4. The Cyclone - The new cyclone is much more interesting and better designed than the old one. Terran does not need another unit that has to always be micro'd. Terran is the only race that doesn't have reliable tanking units and therefore is dependent on microing every unit. The live cyclone is so heavily dependent on micro that it's just gimmicky. It doesn't work with too many other units or compositions. These kind of units have a place, but Terran has greater needs in terms of mech and the transition to late game, so it fits better there. The hybrid ground dps and tankiness plus the anti-air potential (raised with micro) is a better design decision for the cyclone. generally speaking, i agree with the above opinion. i vote for the PTR Cyclone. PTR Cyclone > Live Cyclone
It a makes early game tvt hell and is really bad against air compositions which old cyclone did decent enough until it could delay to your own air
New one doesn't do that at all and dies to oracle whIle being stupid early game. Anti armor stationary unit is already there in tanks and thor
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On October 16 2016 02:20 JuanDi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 02:58 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So Tempest get a stun storm instead of a psistorm...
Honestly I don't think the Tempest needs any ability. Keep the nerfed ground range and leave it. Anything else and we're just going to see mass tempest late game against since its objectively better than the carrier. It's mostly to improve the toss vs tank line late game scenario. The ability won't reallly do much against other units because it has such long cast time. It will mostly serve as area control in those scenarios
but why does toss need another tank bust, when zealot blink stalker immortals warp prisms and more already crush tank lines?
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Since when blink stalkers crush tank lines ???
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On October 17 2016 06:40 VHbb wrote:
Since when blink stalkers crush tank lines ???
Since 2010.
Example:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 17 2016 07:32 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 06:40 VHbb wrote:
Since when blink stalkers crush tank lines ??? Since 2010. Example: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgLcCbv_oEI
lol, tanks are a fu**ing joke vs protoss. David Kim, please, you can even reduce the splash, but PLEASE buff the hell out of tanks!
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On October 17 2016 07:32 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 06:40 VHbb wrote:
Since when blink stalkers crush tank lines ??? Since 2010. Example: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgLcCbv_oEI
To be fair, that's more like Immortals bunker busting + tank busting and then stalkers cleaning up afterwards. It isn't pure stalkers against an entrenched tank line (not with a cc that's out of range).
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On October 17 2016 10:17 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 07:32 Lexender wrote:On October 17 2016 06:40 VHbb wrote:
Since when blink stalkers crush tank lines ??? Since 2010. Example: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgLcCbv_oEI To be fair, that's more like Immortals bunker busting + tank busting and then stalkers cleaning up afterwards. It isn't pure stalkers against an entrenched tank line (not with a cc that's out of range).
Yeah but really as protoss right now you only need to build blink stalkers against mech to force the guy to stay at home, while taking a third and building tempest. And from there, there's not much terran can do tbh
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EPT
