|
Right now there is a balance test map with its own ladder ment to provide feedback to blizzard, yet if they received data theyd be able to tell that TvP currently on EU is 100% them rushing to tempests
this is because once the tempest ability is in your mineral line the protoss virtually shuts down that base so now you are down a base to his three.
Now this should set off alarm bells because its impossible to miss, yet in david kims latest community feedback he states
"For the Tempest, we’d like to get some more feedback because it’s been a bit difficult to tell exactly how strong the fast-teching to Tempests route is. If it is a serious issue, we should definitely look into adding an upgrade or a cool-up time to the ability in order to nerf the time in which the ability hits the field."
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20749854921
The tempests hit your base at 5:00
http://drop.sc/replay/3792917
it does the damage equal to an oracle hitting a completely undefended base and lasts for 32 seconds on a 45 second cooldown from 13 range...
i had to literally stop quing because there is no way to beat this, and now david kim is postponing fixing it after he earlier told us he would make it an uppgrade?
This needs a hotfix!
you cant even get testdata relative to mech when this is in play as protoss winrate is 100% and the terrans dont get to test anything, and this isnt noticeable in your data you get from the map david kim?
what is going on here...
|
Yea I'm not too sure why they need more information, play a few games vs Protoss or look on any thread regarding the test map and Tempests are heavily complained about, I'm one of those complainers lol the ability lasts WAAY too long and is WAAY too good at shutting down mineral lines, like this game really needs yet another unit that massacres economy T__T
I guess what I meant to say was, "Like this game needs yet another aerial unit that requires an extremely specific response or it's gg" like pretty much every other air unit in the game.
Mutalisks? OP as shit and has required so many band aid buffs that now they aren't even viable because they threat of them being viable is enough to force a blind counter (Opening Stargate) or kill them before Spire (2 base allins)
Liberators? Massacres drones, massacres all aerial units except dedicated anti - air units like the Corruptor with carapace upgrades and good splits. Required band aid buffs to actually have a non ludicrous place in the game
Oracles? Ending games with proxy nonsense since HOTS and it's even more strong in LOTV due to kick started economy. Incinerates workers too fast to even react, incinerates small groups of light units too fast to micro against, OP vision granting abilities that last for almost a minute.
Void Rays? Pretty much had to be nerfed to shit because they are the ultimate snow ball out of control unit that is only countered by money fungals
Carriers? So strong that even high level Zergs usually just get lucky when they defeat this composition in mass, I'm never going to have unit control like Snute and he barely scrapes by the skin of his teeth vs mass Carrier turtle Protoss.
Brood lords? So strong that they renamed the expansion Lings of Liberty because combined with Fungals was utterly unstoppable
Does anyone see a recurring theme here? It's not just Tempests (which the OP is totally justified in complaining about) it's just fucking air units in general. They are too damn strong, and they are especially too damn strong vs economy, a big part of what makes LOTV so punishing and oppressive to play at times.
|
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
|
On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due.
I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2.
But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed.
Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine.
Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL?
Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys.
I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design.
When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F.
|
On October 08 2016 03:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Yea I'm not too sure why they need more information, play a few games vs Protoss or look on any thread regarding the test map and Tempests are heavily complained about, I'm one of those complainers lol the ability lasts WAAY too long and is WAAY too good at shutting down mineral lines, like this game really needs yet another unit that massacres economy T__T
I guess what I meant to say was, "Like this game needs yet another aerial unit that requires an extremely specific response or it's gg" like pretty much every other air unit in the game.
Mutalisks? OP as shit and has required so many band aid buffs that now they aren't even viable because they threat of them being viable is enough to force a blind counter (Opening Stargate) or kill them before Spire (2 base allins)
Liberators? Massacres drones, massacres all aerial units except dedicated anti - air units like the Corruptor with carapace upgrades and good splits. Required band aid buffs to actually have a non ludicrous place in the game
Oracles? Ending games with proxy nonsense since HOTS and it's even more strong in LOTV due to kick started economy. Incinerates workers too fast to even react, incinerates small groups of light units too fast to micro against, OP vision granting abilities that last for almost a minute.
Void Rays? Pretty much had to be nerfed to shit because they are the ultimate snow ball out of control unit that is only countered by money fungals
Carriers? So strong that even high level Zergs usually just get lucky when they defeat this composition in mass, I'm never going to have unit control like Snute and he barely scrapes by the skin of his teeth vs mass Carrier turtle Protoss.
Brood lords? So strong that they renamed the expansion Lings of Liberty because combined with Fungals was utterly unstoppable
Does anyone see a recurring theme here? It's not just Tempests (which the OP is totally justified in complaining about) it's just fucking air units in general. They are too damn strong, and they are especially too damn strong vs economy, a big part of what makes LOTV so punishing and oppressive to play at times.
But if protoss has 100% winrate shouldnt david kim notice this immediatly from his data? what data are blizzard gaining from using a test map ladder if they do not notice this?
to me it seems like the only feedback they process is the ones given on the bnet or teamliquid forums, mech has enormous issues with air and its so easy to fix, all you have to do is remove say thor, lib or cyclone anti ground then make it an anti air exclusive unit and buff its range and damage so it rivals brood/carrier in AA DPS...
|
32 seconds is way too long for a spell in sc2, its absurd.
|
probably in david kims mind anything that has the potential to super shutdown an opponent is a nice new all in possibility to keep in the game, just like the nydus worm stuff. then he might buff one/some of the counters you can potentially do to that all in if you see it coming so that it doesn't come up and win all the time and just exist as a bluff end branch in the "meta"
maybe he thinks, if there is a lot of imba stuff in the game and its kinda random which one you go for / end up being able to counter, then there is more chance of achieving 50% on a large number of games^^ cause if the game is very random, the chances are more equal lol
it makes volatility because, you can't know whats in the fog of war always, and if you're just a few steps wrong you get burst a lot
|
On October 08 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due. I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2. But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed. Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine. Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL? Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys. I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design. When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F.
The game isnt 50% let me demonstrate
The person playing is level 2.
Level 1
Level 2
Level 3
If a level 2 wins he puts against lvl 3, if he loses puts against lvl 1, the rule is a level 2 will always face a better player if he wins and a worse player if he loses
So if you lose to a same level protoss you are put against a worse protoss next until you win, then your mmr will stay there in tvp, so if you are bad at tvp you will face worse protosses until you are at 50%
So you can be lvl 3 (bad) against protoss, level 1 (good) against terran and level 2 (same level) against zerg and you can see this in your opponnents MMR.
That is not 50%, if you face better terrans then yourself but same level zergs and worse level protosses this indicates that zerg would be stronger then terran but weaker then protoss for that player.
this is known as a self correcting number where it will increase difficulty over 50% and decrease it beneath 50%
Because of this only grandmasters will not have a 50% winrate across the board as there is no lvl 1 player to match them with and so their stats are the only stats that matter
Right now the maps decide if you win or lose based on tvz ultralisk (z bigger maps veto smaller maps) favoring Z over T by the percentage z can "get there" so it would show a z dominance but its mitigated by terrans vetoing big maps
so imbalance can easily exist in this system while its still "50% winrate" for each race.
|
On October 08 2016 04:13 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due. I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2. But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed. Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine. Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL? Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys. I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design. When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F. The game isnt 50% let me demonstrate The person playing is level 2. Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 If a level 2 wins he puts against lvl 3, if he loses puts against lvl 1, the rule is a level 2 will always face a better player if he wins and a worse player if he loses So if you lose to a same level protoss you are put against a worse protoss next until you win, then your mmr will stay there in tvp, so if you are bad at tvp you will face worse protosses until you are at 50% this is known as a self correcting number where it will increase difficulty over 50% and decrease it beneath 50% Because of this only grandmasters will not have a 50% winrate across the board as there is no lvl 1 player to match them with and so their stats are the only stats that matter Right now the maps decide if you win or lose based on tvz ultralisk (z bigger maps veto smaller maps) favoring Z over T by the percentage z can "get there" so it would show a z dominance but its mitigated by terrans vetoing big maps so imbalance can easily exist in this system while its still 50% winrate for each race.
This is all true and well presented, I may have given the wrong impression with my wording, I merely meant that win rates are relatively stable but yes if you have Terrans that can't win end game vs ultralisks 50% of the time so they all in and win the other 50% of the time that definitely means the game is still imbalanced.
|
On October 08 2016 04:26 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 04:13 FoxDog wrote:On October 08 2016 03:52 Beelzebub1 wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. I agree with all of this, the problem is honestly just David at this point, give credit where it's due and force accountability where it's due. I give David credit for maintaining a 50% win rate across the board, really I do, it's difficult to maintain good balance in such a complex game like SC2. But I also force accountability, I can hardly even remember the last time a patch came out that wasn't just a noob band aid fix and pretty much every design input that David has ever put in is just horrid and it's things that can't be changed. Macro boosters? Unnecessary and has lead to huge imbalance issues that are difficult if not impossible to elegantly correct. BW never had nor needed macro boosters and it turned out fine. Terrible terrible damage? Every unit has an ability but the unit is shit without the ability but OP with the ability? Air units shitting on everything since WoL? Warp Gates making Gateways unneeded and making Gateway units borderline impossible to balance?...Warp Gate existing period when it's terrible for balance but David looooves his cool factor toys. I know at this point I'm off topic, but it just sucks to see this game die because the dude in charge of balance and design I guess is immune to being fired or replaced even in the face of gross incompetence. I say gross incompetence because half of his job is balance and the other 50% of design. When you only get 50% on the test, you get an F. The game isnt 50% let me demonstrate The person playing is level 2. Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 If a level 2 wins he puts against lvl 3, if he loses puts against lvl 1, the rule is a level 2 will always face a better player if he wins and a worse player if he loses So if you lose to a same level protoss you are put against a worse protoss next until you win, then your mmr will stay there in tvp, so if you are bad at tvp you will face worse protosses until you are at 50% this is known as a self correcting number where it will increase difficulty over 50% and decrease it beneath 50% Because of this only grandmasters will not have a 50% winrate across the board as there is no lvl 1 player to match them with and so their stats are the only stats that matter Right now the maps decide if you win or lose based on tvz ultralisk (z bigger maps veto smaller maps) favoring Z over T by the percentage z can "get there" so it would show a z dominance but its mitigated by terrans vetoing big maps so imbalance can easily exist in this system while its still 50% winrate for each race. This is all true and well presented, I may have given the wrong impression with my wording, I merely meant that win rates are relatively stable but yes if you have Terrans that can't win end game vs ultralisks 50% of the time so they all in and win the other 50% of the time that definitely means the game is still imbalanced.
No you got it right, thats what i ment all along
|
The system works in a way that every race has about 50%, and that is generally true for players too.
Therefore, only indication of imbalance (or that some races are easier to do well with than others) is league distribution.
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2
|
On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW.
|
On October 08 2016 05:37 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW.
I'm in no way claiming to be some BW metagame expert but wasnt the Mutalisk like mandatory in ZvT, scourges mandatory for drop defense and Corsair one of the primary ZvP units for corsair/reaver?
So while they sucked in direct combat they were merely strong in utility?
|
Well, right now it is true that the tempest rush is completely ruining my TvP experience. At least 90% of my games are exactly that.
|
On October 08 2016 05:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 05:37 RoomOfMush wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW. I'm in no way claiming to be some BW metagame expert but wasnt the Mutalisk like mandatory in ZvT, scourges mandatory for drop defense and Corsair one of the primary ZvP units for corsair/reaver? So while they sucked in direct combat they were merely strong in utility?
Oh air units are awesome in BW. My point is that air units are super weak though. Their usefulness was not so much the damage they could deal (excluding BC's and Carriers) but more their supportive powers.
Mutalisks die against any real anti-air in an equal fight. But they can move quickly and outmaneuver ground units if you have the APM. Corsairs are used for scouting, for hunting down overlords, but most importantly for discouraging the Zerg to go for mass mutalisks.
BC's and Carriers are the only air units in BW that were actually really powerful in terms of raw damage output. But they are hella expensive and take ages to build. They still get owned pretty bad by anti-air though unless they can exploit the terrain and their superior range.
|
On October 08 2016 05:47 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 05:37 RoomOfMush wrote:On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL. Because in BW air units are super cost inefficient in straight up engagements. SC2 players dont necessarily know, but air units in BW are expensive as hell and suck in combat. Their only strength is their mobility and cloaking for wraith. Anti-Air in BW will kill air units in no time for a fraction of the prize. This isnt the case in SC2 where air units are more like core army units. Just look at the Void Ray; the design of the Void Ray is that of a core unit (but it has been changed so many times now its sometimes hard to keep track what it is supposed to be). There are no units like that in BW. I'm in no way claiming to be some BW metagame expert but wasnt the Mutalisk like mandatory in ZvT, scourges mandatory for drop defense and Corsair one of the primary ZvP units for corsair/reaver? So while they sucked in direct combat they were merely strong in utility?
They were crucial units as you say, yes, but what RoomOfMush means is that they weren't "core" units that you can just mass up in a ball and have head-on large scale engagements with. Well, except for carriers, but those needed good positioning and serious micro to be really effective.
It's not like in SC2 where if you have 40 mutas and the toss only has 20 stalkers for anti air you can just go kill him.
|
As a protoss I see no problem with this 
|
Lol, I knew this would be what all the Protoss were doing every game once they tried it out ^_^. It's one of those things that is really hard to balance.
Actually if it really lasts for 32(!) seconds then you could probably cut the duration in half and it'd still be good against mech, maybe? But the problem of mineral line harass still remains.
But if he's buying a fleet beacon just to build one tempest to harass your mineral lines (lol) he's probably pretty susceptible to a timing attack...
My gut is telling me that even though it seems ridiculous there should be a way to fight around it! Investment in SG -> oracle (assuming) -> fleet beacon -> tempest + (tempest travel time if you didn't proxy) is quite a bit of money that could be invested in tech elsewhere for one unit that doesn't do much besides throw down mineral line balls, lol.
For the same price if scouted you should just be able to buy a pair of vikings and kill the tempest as it's walking over, lol, and if it's proxied you should obviously be able to shut the proxy down before he can get a fleet beacon and a tempest...
Just some food for thought, Protoss is pretty limited in tech when they do crap like this...
|
I personally don't mind air armies just don't be afraid to counter air with air and you're good usually. Air armies are pretty fun in small numbers and besides, what kind of army comp is cool to play in mass anyway?
|
While the tempest is a very strong unit in the PTR, and I agree it does need a nerf, lets not exaggerate too much.
As someone said earlier, it is a heavy tech investment that is punishable. The cost of getting it leaves protoss incredibly vulnerable.
Now if the tech is hidden, and protoss can easily mask the build, than we do have a problem here. Currently if you see an early fleet beacon, stop all tech/economy and go for a giant army to push immediately. One tempest will do very little against a large 40-50 supply army.
In this particular situation (fast tempest rush to harass mineral lines) I really don't see Tempests being that problematic.
Now in the late game, when Protoss can amass 6-8 Tempests that are protected by HT or disruptors or stalkers, then we have a real problem. The length and size definitely needs to be shrunken a bit.
|
On October 08 2016 06:53 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
While the tempest is a very strong unit in the PTR, and I agree it does need a nerf, lets not exaggerate too much.
As someone said earlier, it is a heavy tech investment that is punishable. The cost of getting it leaves protoss incredibly vulnerable.
Now if the tech is hidden, and protoss can easily mask the build, than we do have a problem here. Currently if you see an early fleet beacon, stop all tech/economy and go for a giant army to push immediately. One tempest will do very little against a large 40-50 supply army.
In this particular situation (fast tempest rush to harass mineral lines) I really don't see Tempests being that problematic.
Now in the late game, when Protoss can amass 6-8 Tempests that are protected by HT or disruptors or stalkers, then we have a real problem. The length and size definitely needs to be shrunken a bit.
read the OP, the tempest hits at 5:00, you will have at most made 8 marines by then if doing a standard opener, and the protoss has aprox 1000/1000 floating because of the time it takes to finish the cyber, stargate and fleet becon
so thats 9 adepts and a mothership core
if you also bothered to watch the replay attached you would see that there is no way to stop this build in highmaster/gm.
|
So you're telling me that the Protoss can get all that (cyber, stargate, fleet beacon, 9 adepts, MoCore) and all you will have is 8 marines? 8 marines is 400 mineral.
400 mineral vs. over 1k/1k in units and structures........
|
yes like the liberator circles? the reason tempest get nerfed is that you can mass it in the lategame. But hows about liberator? like polt building all the time only liberators 5 at once.
All the terrans crying all the time. I hope david kim will never read that feedback or any other lol.
|
On October 08 2016 08:12 NutriaKaiN wrote:
yes like the liberator circles? the reason tempest get nerfed is that you can mass it in the lategame. But hows about liberator? like polt building all the time only liberators 5 at once.
All the terrans crying all the time. I hope david kim will never read that feedback or any other lol.
it hits at 5:00 it cant be stopped and immediatly renders the protoss 3 base vs 1 base... you cant mine from the base when the ability is in effect...
|
I don't know if its impossible to hold or not, i just hate this kind of stupid skills, how do they come up with these idea? seriously? What is it needed for? Protoss is already the race with most aoe.
|
On October 08 2016 07:20 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
So you're telling me that the Protoss can get all that (cyber, stargate, fleet beacon, 9 adepts, MoCore) and all you will have is 8 marines? 8 marines is 400 mineral.
400 mineral vs. over 1k/1k in units and structures........
Terran infrastructure is slower to kick in, Terran requires specific tech and upgrades to be competitive in a standard game, and there's the defensive advantage of travel time and planetary pylons.
The problem isn't that you can't hardcounter Tempest Rushes - the problem is that you die to everything and anything if they did not tempest rush.
|
On October 08 2016 03:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
32 seconds is way too long for a spell in sc2, its absurd.
I'm yet to hear anyone come up with a realistic strategy for swarm hosts 
A gas heavy harass unit with a 45 second cooldown between attacks? Come on.
|
8748 Posts
That replay is not compelling. It features low level play and a terran who is not trying to counter it.
Keep in mind that saying something is strong against standard play is something that Blizzard wants to hear, not something that worries them. Continuing to develop the game is supposed to involve the old standards becoming obsolete. Trying hard to make an old build work against something new on the test map and failing is not alarming.
On October 08 2016 07:06 FoxDog wrote:
if you also bothered to watch the replay attached you would see that there is no way to stop this build in highmaster/gm.
You don't know what you don't know. Even pros think something is impossible until someone does it. You're going way too far based on some extremely low level play. Post the replays of the top GM players or pros, at least to start.
|
Russian Federation6 Posts
On October 08 2016 03:22 FoxDog wrote:
Right now there is a balance test map with its own ladder ment to provide feedback to blizzard, yet if they received data theyd be able to tell that TvP currently on EU is 100% them rushing to tempests
this is because once the tempest ability is in your mineral line the protoss virtually shuts down that base so now you are down a base to his three.
this is coz im only 1 high ml/gml toss in test map)
ur low ml and play rly stupid build in all games, thats why u lose
and i play this build only vs low ml, high ml/gml know how to play)
|
they are looking closer into rotti build?
|
build vikings instead of medivacs vs sg ? kill tempest / tempests , and be far ahead , cuzz protoss just invested in tech that have no use next 3-4 minutes, while not having everything else?
|
It would be so easy for DKim to just make the spell kind of an earthquake-themed spell and have it not affect hovering units. I think that would solve the worker harass problem 100%, while finally getting to see whether the spell could potentially fit with the rest of the game.
Can you imagine how broken Spider Mines would've been in BW if they could target workers? There's precedent to using the hovering tag for something.
|
players should gather and agree on not to abuse every unit/ability to kill workers, use them on armies only
|
Funny how DK "listens" to the community. Community since HotS been telling they don't like overkilling on mineral lines. So DK somehow concluded that Blink-DTs and Tempest time bomb was exactly what community been asking for.
|
On October 09 2016 01:29 AndYouSayHeDoesntHac wrote:
Funny how DK "listens" to the community. Community since HotS been telling they don't like overkilling on mineral lines. So DK somehow concluded that Blink-DTs and Tempest time bomb was exactly what community been asking for.
Oracle, hellbat drop, widowmine drop, adept prism and now tempest ball, what you are saying is so true, its basically a way around playing a straightup game and testing the other players macro/micro/skill
bad design in other words!
what would i do? i would have made it so that the ball is killable or the tempest has to channel it so killing the tempest cancels the ability like neural, or i would make the ability only dmg units and not buildings
david kim is powering up for something, this ability is forshadowing swarmhosts style mass spine spore forests returning for which this ability makes perfect sense and i dread that
|
On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
whoah is that you Rob?
|
On October 08 2016 22:03 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 07:20 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
So you're telling me that the Protoss can get all that (cyber, stargate, fleet beacon, 9 adepts, MoCore) and all you will have is 8 marines? 8 marines is 400 mineral.
400 mineral vs. over 1k/1k in units and structures........ Terran infrastructure is slower to kick in, Terran requires specific tech and upgrades to be competitive in a standard game, and there's the defensive advantage of travel time and planetary pylons. The problem isn't that you can't hardcounter Tempest Rushes - the problem is that you die to everything and anything if they did not tempest rush.
I honestly don't know the meta on test map atm, but if you play bio 2-1-1, 5 mins is the timing when you're supposed to have 16 marines, stim, and 2 medivacs (or 1 medivac 2 mines). Does it fully counter a well executed tempest rush? I don't know, but it certainly does not die to everything and anything else.
Having only 8 marine at 5 mins is silver league level. let's keep it real.
EDIT : watched replay, all I saw is a terran being canon rushed, loosing a lot and being supply block for the longest time. In all honesty, DTs or oracles would have ended the game the same way.
We need a replay where the terran doesn't loose so much before tempest timing so we can get a better idea.
Not saying tempest is not OP but we need more data than this, and if I was blizzard this replay alone would not convince me.
|
I really dislike the tempest. It is just such a boring unit. Not fun to play with, not fun to use. I really wish they would scrap it
|
On October 08 2016 22:32 NonY wrote:That replay is not compelling. It features low level play and a terran who is not trying to counter it. Keep in mind that saying something is strong against standard play is something that Blizzard wants to hear, not something that worries them. Continuing to develop the game is supposed to involve the old standards becoming obsolete. Trying hard to make an old build work against something new on the test map and failing is not alarming. Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 07:06 FoxDog wrote:
if you also bothered to watch the replay attached you would see that there is no way to stop this build in highmaster/gm.
You don't know what you don't know. Even pros think something is impossible until someone does it. You're going way too far based on some extremely low level play. Post the replays of the top GM players or pros, at least to start.
So if bronze league only has Protoss players doing the same Tempest rush, it's ok? :|
|
On October 08 2016 22:03 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 07:20 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
So you're telling me that the Protoss can get all that (cyber, stargate, fleet beacon, 9 adepts, MoCore) and all you will have is 8 marines? 8 marines is 400 mineral.
400 mineral vs. over 1k/1k in units and structures........ Terran infrastructure is slower to kick in, Terran requires specific tech and upgrades to be competitive in a standard game, and there's the defensive advantage of travel time and planetary pylons. The problem isn't that you can't hardcounter Tempest Rushes - the problem is that you die to everything and anything if they did not tempest rush.
Then try building a different infrastructure path?
My god, you Terrans will never change. Instead of adapting or trying new strategies, you whine until other races get nerfed to the ground. Good job, no wonder SC2 is dying since your real option of being a successful gamer is being a Terran player.
User was warned for this post
|
Does the tempest need a free 32 second lasting psi storm in your mineral line? Yeah...no lol. Hope it's hotfixed soon.
|
Why do people keep freaking out when they adjust things to possibly be a little bit OP at the beginning of balance testing? It's been stated many times that they do this so they get people to use the unit/ability lots so they can get lots of data on how/when it's used. It also forces people to find counters. If every time you play protoss and you have a tempest in your mineral line at 5 minutes, then you going to figure out a way to get a counter out at that point. If this is not possible, then they do what they said, which is to change the cooldown on the ability or make it so you have to research it.
|
On October 09 2016 12:57 avilo wrote:
Does the tempest need a free 32 second lasting psi storm in your mineral line? Yeah...no lol. Hope it's hotfixed soon.
I disagree with 98% of what Avilo talks about but this is that rare 2%.
The ability is just OP, why anything would last 32 fucking seconds in an RTS is absurd.
|
I just love how every time they try to fit tempest in a role ends in utter madness. Lets see the next epic fail with this abomination.
|
Yeah 32 second spell, 45 second cooldown, so there is all of 12 seconds between when its doing damage...
It's broken...
|
Yeah I stopped playing the testmap due to Tempest and mass Swarmhosts.
What is the point of trying to make mech viable if you introduce broken things like that?
I do not understand why Blizzard makes changes that makes the game worse.
It would have been sufficient to
1. Remove Tankivacs
2. Increase tank damage
3. Increase Tempest supply to 6.
No other changes are needed and they may just introduce unnecessary problems like mass swarmhost games or Tempest storming your mineral lines.
|
The unit is insanely broken. Whether it's in cheeses or in macro play, the tempest is so broken you have no way to win against toss. It's the only real gamebreaking thing on the test map.
It's even more massable, because you can spamm the sphere while chasing which is completely hysterical. Seeing an air deathball chasing an army while spamming storms is the very proof blizz have no internal testing.
Also, i remember that when the test map changelog got out, someone pointed out that the spell would be broken in mineral lines. To which DK answered in the comment that it shouldn't be an issue. WELL FUCKING GUESS WHAT.
|
Russian Federation6 Posts
On October 09 2016 13:41 Kiwan wrote:
Why do people keep freaking out when they adjust things to possibly be a little bit OP at the beginning of balance testing? It's been stated many times that they do this so they get people to use the unit/ability lots so they can get lots of data on how/when it's used. It also forces people to find counters. If every time you play protoss and you have a tempest in your mineral line at 5 minutes, then you going to figure out a way to get a counter out at that point. If this is not possible, then they do what they said, which is to change the cooldown on the ability or make it so you have to research it.
u can build 2 vikings and kill 1st tempest, ez win
|
I don't play test map. So I don't know if it's the case here and now.
Generally it make sense to test something little OP. But it's useless to test something very OP, because the strengths and reactions are so distant to what could happen in actual games. It will happen for shorter periods, but developers should realize this fast because the testing time is being wasted for that matchup.
|
I think the testmap is quite interesting but I do think the new Tempest spell is a little out of order.
I do get it that the idea was to buff mech to make mech "viable" and give Protoss something that forces Terrans to change their tank setup.
But I already think that Protoss has enough stuff that can do that, we don't really need the new Tempest spell.
For example, one of my favorite ways I've seen players like puCK deal with mech back in HotS was to get 6-8 warp prisms, fill them up with immortals/archons, drop them, then reinforce with a lot of chargelots/DTs. It was fun to play and fun to watch.
Was it actually viable? I don't know, worked for me when I tried it at least and I never saw puCK lose with it.
To be fair, I have been against the Tempest since it was introduced, it is a quite boring unit that offers very little both for players and spectators. There isn't much to micro and even sound of the attacks annoys you after a while.
It was designed to help to counter Broodlords after they were deemed too powerful in WoL. Broodlords on their own are pretty bad regardless if you build Tempest or not and seeing as the infestors were nerfed, I never really saw the point of the unit.
I guess now it is needed to help deal with mass liberators. I don't know the point of my post anymore.
|
Okay, so I understand that if the tempest shows up, there's nothing you can do to stop it.
However, does getting a tempest for a 5:00 timing leave the protoss vulnerable to any timings?
|
On October 09 2016 19:00 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah I stopped playing the testmap due to Tempest and mass Swarmhosts.
What is the point of trying to make mech viable if you introduce broken things like that?
I do not understand why Blizzard makes changes that makes the game worse.
It would have been sufficient to
1. Remove Tankivacs
2. Increase tank damage
3. Increase Tempest supply to 6.
No other changes are needed and they may just introduce unnecessary problems like mass swarmhost games or Tempest storming your mineral lines. '
This is so true, what you are saying here restored my faith in humanity
|
I'm a Diamond-3 Terran player, and I have to say. Regardless of whether its a tempest rush or a macro game, having a flying unit with long-range splash AND a 30+ second psi storm is a bit...
I mean, isn't it obvious enough? Its already a flying unit with long range splash damage. Why do you need a damage spell for it?
|
On October 08 2016 06:18 Qwyn wrote:
Lol, I knew this would be what all the Protoss were doing every game once they tried it out ^_^. It's one of those things that is really hard to balance.
Actually if it really lasts for 32(!) seconds then you could probably cut the duration in half and it'd still be good against mech, maybe? But the problem of mineral line harass still remains.
But if he's buying a fleet beacon just to build one tempest to harass your mineral lines (lol) he's probably pretty susceptible to a timing attack...
My gut is telling me that even though it seems ridiculous there should be a way to fight around it! Investment in SG -> oracle (assuming) -> fleet beacon -> tempest + (tempest travel time if you didn't proxy) is quite a bit of money that could be invested in tech elsewhere for one unit that doesn't do much besides throw down mineral line balls, lol.
For the same price if scouted you should just be able to buy a pair of vikings and kill the tempest as it's walking over, lol, and if it's proxied you should obviously be able to shut the proxy down before he can get a fleet beacon and a tempest...
Just some food for thought, Protoss is pretty limited in tech when they do crap like this...
We come again to the problem of the Mothership Core and Photon Overcharge.
Terran has a hard time breaching Protoss defenses early on, they NEED Stim in order to do it without pulling SCVs. Do we really want to make "pulling the boys" the best viable way to handle the kind of stupid bullshit Protoss can do because the only way to stop it is to "stop them from getting there?"
Tempest rushing needs more counter-play.
This is really quite a simple solution IMO. If you're going to keep it at all, put Disruption Sphere as a researchable ability on the Fleet Beacon and put it with a hefty cost (200/200 sounds about right, same as Psionic Storm) and research time.
That will eliminate the viability of rushing to it and we can put this issue to bed.
|
^ That's absurd. Stim is a staple tech regardless. It's like a Protoss complaining they can't use their stalkers without researching Blink. You Terrans are so spoiled these days, asking for everything for other races to be nerfed while trying to get the easy way out for yourselves.
I would nerf Tanks, Liberators, Widow Mines right now. Marines are fine as it is.
|
On October 09 2016 12:57 avilo wrote:
Does the tempest need a free 32 second lasting psi storm in your mineral line? Yeah...no lol. Hope it's hotfixed soon.
It isnt so bad an ability, but the fact they can bumrush you and it prevents literally all mech testing is tantemount to absolute retardation on david kims behalf
and this proves he is lying about all his stats on mech and puts in question everything else he has said i mean come on...
|
remove the tempest please. If the carrier becomes good at last, no one will ever complain the tempest was gone.
|
On October 08 2016 03:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Mutalisks? OP as shit and has required so many band aid buffs that now they aren't even viable because they threat of them being viable is enough to force a blind counter (Opening Stargate) or kill them before Spire (2 base allins)
Liberators? Massacres drones, massacres all aerial units except dedicated anti - air units like the Corruptor with carapace upgrades and good splits. Required band aid buffs to actually have a non ludicrous place in the game
Oracles? Ending games with proxy nonsense since HOTS and it's even more strong in LOTV due to kick started economy. Incinerates workers too fast to even react, incinerates small groups of light units too fast to micro against, OP vision granting abilities that last for almost a minute.
Void Rays? Pretty much had to be nerfed to shit because they are the ultimate snow ball out of control unit that is only countered by money fungals
Carriers? So strong that even high level Zergs usually just get lucky when they defeat this composition in mass, I'm never going to have unit control like Snute and he barely scrapes by the skin of his teeth vs mass Carrier turtle Protoss.
Speaking only from the ZvP perspective, this is total bollocks.
Mutas in small-medium numbers are bad against stalkers, archons, cannons, pylon overcharge. If it's late enough in the game to mass switch, getting 2 stargates up while overcharging / warping in stalkers/archons gets pheonix out in plenty of time.
Liberators are trivial to defend. Queens much better, spores burrow faster, ravagers hard counter them. Hardly any terrans are doing liberator harrass in early game now because of the queen and spore buffs. Occasional lib range can be annoying but ovie speed scout / grab a spire sorts it most times.
Oracles are easy if you get ovie speed and scout their main. Sure, once in a while I won't scout proxy oracles and they'll do a lot of damage, but as long as you pull fast and have multiple queens it's not game ending even if you didn't build spores. Most games it's scouted, 1 spore in main/natural, 2 queens at 3rd, negligible damage done.
If the early-mid game goes your way, voids / carriers are easy with mass ling/hydra, protoss just can't get onto 4 base if you got into a solid 9-10 min hydra/ling +2 push, and you can starve them out. It is up to the Zerg to make something happen if they're massing carriers, but it can be done without too much trouble.
That's not to say the new tempests aren't OP, I think they definitely need a nerf. But only them. Claiming air is too strong right now is BS.
|
On October 10 2016 00:21 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 06:18 Qwyn wrote:
Lol, I knew this would be what all the Protoss were doing every game once they tried it out ^_^. It's one of those things that is really hard to balance.
Actually if it really lasts for 32(!) seconds then you could probably cut the duration in half and it'd still be good against mech, maybe? But the problem of mineral line harass still remains.
But if he's buying a fleet beacon just to build one tempest to harass your mineral lines (lol) he's probably pretty susceptible to a timing attack...
My gut is telling me that even though it seems ridiculous there should be a way to fight around it! Investment in SG -> oracle (assuming) -> fleet beacon -> tempest + (tempest travel time if you didn't proxy) is quite a bit of money that could be invested in tech elsewhere for one unit that doesn't do much besides throw down mineral line balls, lol.
For the same price if scouted you should just be able to buy a pair of vikings and kill the tempest as it's walking over, lol, and if it's proxied you should obviously be able to shut the proxy down before he can get a fleet beacon and a tempest...
Just some food for thought, Protoss is pretty limited in tech when they do crap like this... We come again to the problem of the Mothership Core and Photon Overcharge. Terran has a hard time breaching Protoss defenses early on, they NEED Stim in order to do it without pulling SCVs. Do we really want to make "pulling the boys" the best viable way to handle the kind of stupid bullshit Protoss can do because the only way to stop it is to "stop them from getting there?" Tempest rushing needs more counter-play. This is really quite a simple solution IMO. If you're going to keep it at all, put Disruption Sphere as a researchable ability on the Fleet Beacon and put it with a hefty cost (200/200 sounds about right, same as Psionic Storm) and research time. That will eliminate the viability of rushing to it and we can put this issue to bed.
So basicly what you are saying is to use common sense... hmm
|
On October 10 2016 00:12 Marcus Arcadia wrote:
I'm a Diamond-3 Terran player, and I have to say. Regardless of whether its a tempest rush or a macro game, having a flying unit with long-range splash AND a 30+ second psi storm is a bit...
I mean, isn't it obvious enough? Its already a flying unit with long range splash damage. Why do you need a damage spell for it?
The Tempest does splash dmg? I am pretty sure that's not the case
And its ability is neither interesting nor needed. Not sure what Blizzard is aiming for,
|
On October 10 2016 08:05 Phaenoman wrote:The Tempest does splash dmg? I am pretty sure that's not the case
It does, actually, deals splash damage.
|
On October 09 2016 12:29 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 22:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 08 2016 07:20 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
So you're telling me that the Protoss can get all that (cyber, stargate, fleet beacon, 9 adepts, MoCore) and all you will have is 8 marines? 8 marines is 400 mineral.
400 mineral vs. over 1k/1k in units and structures........ Terran infrastructure is slower to kick in, Terran requires specific tech and upgrades to be competitive in a standard game, and there's the defensive advantage of travel time and planetary pylons. The problem isn't that you can't hardcounter Tempest Rushes - the problem is that you die to everything and anything if they did not tempest rush. Then try building a different infrastructure path? My god, you Terrans will never change. Instead of adapting or trying new strategies, you whine until other races get nerfed to the ground. Good job, no wonder SC2 is dying since your real option of being a successful gamer is being a Terran player.
Yeah lets blame terran players for sc2's inevitable demise. moron...
|
On October 09 2016 12:29 parkufarku wrote:
Good job, no wonder SC2 is dying since your real option of being a successful gamer is being a Terran player.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
2016 Premier Tournament Victories:
6Z, 6P, 3T
2016 Premier Tournament Runner-ups:
6Z, 6P, 3T
2015 Premier Tournament Victories:
7Z, 11P, 4T
2015 Premier Tournament Runner-ups:
13Z, 6P, 3T
Being immune to pesky things like "numbers" and "facts" must be pleasant. Unfortunately reality isn't so accommodating to the rest of us.
|
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up.
|
On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up.
Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right...
|
Question: I haven't had much interaction with this Tempest problem (low leaguer here) but isn't it the same problem as with rush to Liberator with range (which I never quite understood how to counter anyway :/)?
|
On October 10 2016 12:56 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up. Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right...
I don't necessarily entirely agree with the idea. The tempest certainly is concerning but there have been many instances of air units as the core of an army have been interesting, like mutalisks in SCBW which managed to be cool despite the lack of interaction with the terrain, and tech swaps to carriers. Both of those involved some impressive micro, especially in the case of mutalisks. Mutas in ZvZ were just complete nutso.
|
On October 10 2016 14:45 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 12:56 FoxDog wrote:On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up. Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right... I don't necessarily entirely agree with the idea. The tempest certainly is concerning but there have been many instances of air units as the core of an army have been interesting, like mutalisks in SCBW which managed to be cool despite the lack of interaction with the terrain, and tech swaps to carriers. Both of those involved some impressive micro, especially in the case of mutalisks. Mutas in ZvZ were just complete nutso.
ZvZ in BW was bad at least imo.
|
On October 08 2016 03:41 Th1rdEye wrote:
I kinda agree with the power of air units in SC2.
Been playing BW lately only... Mutalisks can die to turrets and marines, irradiate etc... Wraiths die to spores/turret etc, Scouts/Sairs can be defended. All the air units in BW can be countered relatively easily.. Mass carrier sair is still tough but there are still ways to deal with it pretty easily if you dont micro right.
All the air units have their places but aren't super OP. A dropship is slow enough to be caught if you're scouting properly etc. Protoss speed shuttles are fast but in BW you wont just straight up lose a game because u lost a mineral line of workers.
. I played since Beta of WOL.
Air units in SC2 has been my biggest complaint throughout all of sc2's life. I have always hated seeing just how strong air armies are in the late game.
I won't expand really anymore because you essentially said what I think 100%. I really, really wish Blizzard would look at air units/drop harass and change it, but I gave up on that years ago.
|
On October 10 2016 14:45 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 12:56 FoxDog wrote:On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up. Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right... I don't necessarily entirely agree with the idea. The tempest certainly is concerning but there have been many instances of air units as the core of an army have been interesting, like mutalisks in SCBW which managed to be cool despite the lack of interaction with the terrain, and tech swaps to carriers. Both of those involved some impressive micro, especially in the case of mutalisks. Mutas in ZvZ were just complete nutso.
Mutalisks were not core army units in BW. Mutalisk die to almost every anti-air unit in the game in a fair fight. They get evaporated by the anti-air of T and P especially.
The benefit of Mutalisks in BW was that they didnt need to fight fair. They could kite their low-range (marine) enemies, abuse terrain (against dragoons for example) and always threaten the opponent with a back stab while the zerg player was bunkering up behind static defense.
|
On October 08 2016 03:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Yea I'm not too sure why they need more information, play a few games vs Protoss or look on any thread regarding the test map and Tempests are heavily complained about, I'm one of those complainers lol the ability lasts WAAY too long and is WAAY too good at shutting down mineral lines, like this game really needs yet another unit that massacres economy T__T
I guess what I meant to say was, "Like this game needs yet another aerial unit that requires an extremely specific response or it's gg" like pretty much every other air unit in the game.
Mutalisks? OP as shit and has required so many band aid buffs that now they aren't even viable because they threat of them being viable is enough to force a blind counter (Opening Stargate) or kill them before Spire (2 base allins)
Liberators? Massacres drones, massacres all aerial units except dedicated anti - air units like the Corruptor with carapace upgrades and good splits. Required band aid buffs to actually have a non ludicrous place in the game
Oracles? Ending games with proxy nonsense since HOTS and it's even more strong in LOTV due to kick started economy. Incinerates workers too fast to even react, incinerates small groups of light units too fast to micro against, OP vision granting abilities that last for almost a minute.
Void Rays? Pretty much had to be nerfed to shit because they are the ultimate snow ball out of control unit that is only countered by money fungals
Carriers? So strong that even high level Zergs usually just get lucky when they defeat this composition in mass, I'm never going to have unit control like Snute and he barely scrapes by the skin of his teeth vs mass Carrier turtle Protoss.
Brood lords? So strong that they renamed the expansion Lings of Liberty because combined with Fungals was utterly unstoppable
Does anyone see a recurring theme here? It's not just Tempests (which the OP is totally justified in complaining about) it's just fucking air units in general. They are too damn strong, and they are especially too damn strong vs economy, a big part of what makes LOTV so punishing and oppressive to play at times.
Its because people lie and often complain because of frustration and not because its a real problem. How are you able to know who is right? There is no way to tell who is right except time.
We had many incidents in history of our community, where the majority was wrong. Also many of us have a different opinion (i know some people believe their opinion is the only opinion).
|
On October 10 2016 15:19 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 14:45 Djzapz wrote:On October 10 2016 12:56 FoxDog wrote:On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up. Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right... I don't necessarily entirely agree with the idea. The tempest certainly is concerning but there have been many instances of air units as the core of an army have been interesting, like mutalisks in SCBW which managed to be cool despite the lack of interaction with the terrain, and tech swaps to carriers. Both of those involved some impressive micro, especially in the case of mutalisks. Mutas in ZvZ were just complete nutso. Mutalisks were not core army units in BW. Mutalisk die to almost every anti-air unit in the game in a fair fight. They get evaporated by the anti-air of T and P especially. The benefit of Mutalisks in BW was that they didnt need to fight fair. They could kite their low-range (marine) enemies, abuse terrain (against dragoons for example) and always threaten the opponent with a back stab while the zerg player was bunkering up behind static defense.
A fair fight can mean a lot. Mutas were not that bad. But the strength of air units comes from stacking, which gives them a huge advantage (X units attacking 1 unit).
|
On October 09 2016 19:00 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah I stopped playing the testmap due to Tempest and mass Swarmhosts.
What is the point of trying to make mech viable if you introduce broken things like that?
I do not understand why Blizzard makes changes that makes the game worse.
It would have been sufficient to
1. Remove Tankivacs
2. Increase tank damage
3. Increase Tempest supply to 6.
No other changes are needed and they may just introduce unnecessary problems like mass swarmhost games or Tempest storming your mineral lines.
Its not about making mech viable. Its also about giving other races a way to deal with it. Why is that difficult to understand?
They try to find out how they can counter mech with positional play. Thats an extremely good idea. But the spell is essentially a force field, they need a better way.
|
There's already a couple of nice suggestions in the thread, like making the ability require a research or make it some kind of earthquake type of thing, so it doesn't affect hovering units (workers and archons afaik).
|
On October 10 2016 15:19 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 14:45 Djzapz wrote:On October 10 2016 12:56 FoxDog wrote:On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up. Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right... I don't necessarily entirely agree with the idea. The tempest certainly is concerning but there have been many instances of air units as the core of an army have been interesting, like mutalisks in SCBW which managed to be cool despite the lack of interaction with the terrain, and tech swaps to carriers. Both of those involved some impressive micro, especially in the case of mutalisks. Mutas in ZvZ were just complete nutso. Mutalisks were not core army units in BW. Mutalisk die to almost every anti-air unit in the game in a fair fight. They get evaporated by the anti-air of T and P especially. The benefit of Mutalisks in BW was that they didnt need to fight fair. They could kite their low-range (marine) enemies, abuse terrain (against dragoons for example) and always threaten the opponent with a back stab while the zerg player was bunkering up behind static defense.
It's specific to ZvZ, they could be a core unit then and IMO it's would be one of the more interesting ways in which ZvZ could be played, especially when devourers and queens started to come out.
|
On October 10 2016 08:17 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:05 Phaenoman wrote:The Tempest does splash dmg? I am pretty sure that's not the case It does, actually, deals splash damage.
What? I am talking about the basic attack. There is no splash.
|
On October 10 2016 15:34 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 15:19 RoomOfMush wrote:On October 10 2016 14:45 Djzapz wrote:On October 10 2016 12:56 FoxDog wrote:On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up. Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right... I don't necessarily entirely agree with the idea. The tempest certainly is concerning but there have been many instances of air units as the core of an army have been interesting, like mutalisks in SCBW which managed to be cool despite the lack of interaction with the terrain, and tech swaps to carriers. Both of those involved some impressive micro, especially in the case of mutalisks. Mutas in ZvZ were just complete nutso. Mutalisks were not core army units in BW. Mutalisk die to almost every anti-air unit in the game in a fair fight. They get evaporated by the anti-air of T and P especially. The benefit of Mutalisks in BW was that they didnt need to fight fair. They could kite their low-range (marine) enemies, abuse terrain (against dragoons for example) and always threaten the opponent with a back stab while the zerg player was bunkering up behind static defense. A fair fight can mean a lot. Mutas were not that bad. But the strength of air units comes from stacking, which gives them a huge advantage (X units attacking 1 unit).
When I said fair I meant mutas vs an army of roughly equal cost. Of course 10 mutas will win vs 10 marines; even with bad micro. But 10 mutas vs 40 marines (if we count gas cost == mineral cost) then the mutas will get shredded unless you play with no latency at all and are a god of muta micro and abuse the range advantage of mutas to its extreme.
To put it another way: If you go mass muta and your opponent knows that you go mass muta there is no way on earth you can win that game unless you are far better than your opponent.
On October 10 2016 21:37 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 15:19 RoomOfMush wrote:On October 10 2016 14:45 Djzapz wrote:On October 10 2016 12:56 FoxDog wrote:On October 10 2016 12:23 Wildmoon wrote:
Air units work best as supplementary units. Once they become the core unit then the game becomes really bad and bland because air units by their nature are uninteractive. They don't interact with terrain much and there are lots of units in the game that they simply hardcounter because a lot of units can not shoot up. Thank you, yet another voice of reason i dont get why david kim doesnt do whats right... I don't necessarily entirely agree with the idea. The tempest certainly is concerning but there have been many instances of air units as the core of an army have been interesting, like mutalisks in SCBW which managed to be cool despite the lack of interaction with the terrain, and tech swaps to carriers. Both of those involved some impressive micro, especially in the case of mutalisks. Mutas in ZvZ were just complete nutso. Mutalisks were not core army units in BW. Mutalisk die to almost every anti-air unit in the game in a fair fight. They get evaporated by the anti-air of T and P especially. The benefit of Mutalisks in BW was that they didnt need to fight fair. They could kite their low-range (marine) enemies, abuse terrain (against dragoons for example) and always threaten the opponent with a back stab while the zerg player was bunkering up behind static defense. It's specific to ZvZ, they could be a core unit then and IMO it's would be one of the more interesting ways in which ZvZ could be played, especially when devourers and queens started to come out.
ZvZ in BW was pretty extreme. I wouldnt even talk about "core army units" in ZvZ because most of the time there was no army. The game was (most of the time) over after a couple of minutes with both players racing for mutalisks with a couple of lings and scourge on the way. This was mainly (in my opinion) because there was no mobile anti-air unit for Z which was good against light air units. Hydras were good anti-air, but only against heavy units which mutas are not. The only other anti-air for zerg was mutas and scourge, both of which have the same tech path and both of which your enemy is building also. ZvZ was forced into muta-vs-muta because zerg did not have any good ground anti-air that could deal with mutas.
|
Not to mention I said terrain is going mech, there is no real counter until you amass vikings to counter tempests. Mech ground to air is abysmal especially wth cyclone change
Tempests easily beat 2 viking BTW
|
On October 10 2016 09:02 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2016 12:29 parkufarku wrote:
Good job, no wonder SC2 is dying since your real option of being a successful gamer is being a Terran player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments2016 Premier Tournament Victories: 6Z, 6P, 3T 2016 Premier Tournament Runner-ups: 6Z, 6P, 3T 2015 Premier Tournament Victories: 7Z, 11P, 4T 2015 Premier Tournament Runner-ups: 13Z, 6P, 3T Being immune to pesky things like "numbers" and "facts" must be pleasant. Unfortunately reality isn't so accommodating to the rest of us.
haha and thats just tournament results, nevermind having to play at that level for the game to function properly!
|
On October 10 2016 22:06 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:17 Lexender wrote:On October 10 2016 08:05 Phaenoman wrote:The Tempest does splash dmg? I am pretty sure that's not the case It does, actually, deals splash damage. What? I am talking about the basic attack. There is no splash.
the new testmap ability does its why i made this entire post, to highlight!
|
it lasts too long... its ridiculous
|
On October 08 2016 22:03 Aegwynn wrote:
I don't know if its impossible to hold or not, i just hate this kind of stupid skills, how do they come up with these idea? seriously? What is it needed for? Protoss is already the race with most aoe.
Remember the story of Starcraft? Protoss is supposed to appear the strongest and most advanced race. That's why they have these flashy abilities. In multiplayer this is toned down in such a way that Terrans and Zergs can counter. Otherwise Starcraft will be just like Red Alert (dead game) where you expect all units to have the same abilities.
|
Also protoss units as the most powerful supposed to be the most expensive. But in LOTV economy is not an issue for Protoss as on 2-3 bases he can afford anything he want. Also he may not make lots of units to defend as he is perfectly safe with ms core and pylons so he can rush easily to this high tech expensive units. As u see the idea was disturbed by wrongg design decisions
|
On October 09 2016 12:29 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2016 22:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 08 2016 07:20 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
So you're telling me that the Protoss can get all that (cyber, stargate, fleet beacon, 9 adepts, MoCore) and all you will have is 8 marines? 8 marines is 400 mineral.
400 mineral vs. over 1k/1k in units and structures........ Terran infrastructure is slower to kick in, Terran requires specific tech and upgrades to be competitive in a standard game, and there's the defensive advantage of travel time and planetary pylons. The problem isn't that you can't hardcounter Tempest Rushes - the problem is that you die to everything and anything if they did not tempest rush. Then try building a different infrastructure path? My god, you Terrans will never change. Instead of adapting or trying new strategies, you whine until other races get nerfed to the ground. Good job, no wonder SC2 is dying since your real option of being a successful gamer is being a Terran player. User was warned for this post
Funny thing about this post is that the only way to be competitive as a terran is to be Korean :>
|
On October 11 2016 13:57 hiroshOne wrote:
Also protoss units as the most powerful supposed to be the most expensive. But in LOTV economy is not an issue for Protoss as on 2-3 bases he can afford anything he want. Also he may not make lots of units to defend as he is perfectly safe with ms core and pylons so he can rush easily to this high tech expensive units. As u see the idea was disturbed by wrongg design decisions
In my Protoss ladder experience Terrans easily snipe the pylon shooting the overcharge so I need a handful of units to go with it.
Also it was not emphasized in this thread that the Tempest Air to Ground weapon range was reduced from 15 to 6. It is now almost the same range as the Oracle. I hesitate doing the early tempest and use the Disruption sphere because a well placed turret and 5-6 marines can easily snipe it and I will be behind in economy for investing in such an expensive unit (and now w/ more supply count). Bottomline is, Tempests will still need a compliment of ground units to be truly effective. The Terran scans should easily scout the Stargate and Fleet Beacon so they can produce more marines and/or Vikings
|
Yeah.. I'm really not scared that 6 range Tempests is too strong. Sure if you try to counter with only Vikings while not mining because of Tempest storm, you might have troubles, but turrets and marines in bunkers can defend it's attack. Get more eco or make a counter attack and let him have that one storm in your mineral line.
If you know it's coming there's no way it's worse than normal Tempests, let alone Widow Mines and Liberators in your mineral line. Pretty sure this is just a post to try and get a nerf in on Protoss, since DKim already mentioned it.
|
On October 11 2016 18:09 ejozl wrote:
Yeah.. I'm really not scared that 6 range Tempests is too strong. Sure if you try to counter with only Vikings while not mining because of Tempest storm, you might have troubles, but turrets and marines in bunkers can defend it's attack. Get more eco or make a counter attack and let him have that one storm in your mineral line.
If you know it's coming there's no way it's worse than normal Tempests, let alone Widow Mines and Liberators in your mineral line. Pretty sure this is just a post to try and get a nerf in on Protoss, since DKim already mentioned it.
you cant kill his first tempest before it gets off its ability in your mineral line
you are now 1 base vs 3 base protoss, do you understand? its not about massing tempests if you had read the OP its about that silly ability shutting down every single mech build so the purpose of the test map cant reveal if mech is too strong or not vs protoss
in fact if david kim received any stats from the test map whatsoever outside "terran, protoss, zerg" he would be able to tell that mech is insanely underpowered and struggling mightily against all but in tvt
|
When blizzard showed the video with the new ability, people cried "this will make mining impossible".
And of course it became true...(dunno what they were thinking back then).
I think designwise it would be very bad but:
But could you imagine an ability or unit that cannot kill workers.
Well this sounds stupid but this would immediately solve the tempestproblem.
A certain radius in which a mineral patch neglects the field?
Additionally i dont think tempests should be harass units. Maybe they should change the ability completely into something passive?
|
I feel the SC2 approach to air units doesn't take into consideration the sheer intrinsic value of an air unit. An air unit can bypass any regular base defense centered around the map design itself, and forces the opponent to invest in anti-air defense/tech. It does a lot of damage with just simply being in the game. To then give them attack strength akin to strong ground units just makes them pure fuckery.
|
On October 11 2016 22:55 saalih416 wrote:
I feel the SC2 approach to air units doesn't take into consideration the sheer intrinsic value of an air unit. An air unit can bypass any regular base defense centered around the map design itself, and forces the opponent to invest in anti-air defense/tech. It does a lot of damage with just simply being in the game. To then give them attack strength akin to strong ground units just makes them pure fuckery.
This has been written on this forum for years, by different people and different ways, and it's still true. Making air units like liberators or tempest way stronger than some of the most basic and massable AA ground units (like stalkers, hydras or cyclones) just means every lategame scenario is gonna be mass air battles.
The two ways to solve this issue is to either nerf the air units, or give the ground units the "queen treatment", which is make their AA attack better than their ground attack. Like the goliath.
|
trying to attack a protoss on 3 bases that's massing tempests is now completely impossible. PO + the spell DESTROYS bioball, and the spell lasts 30 secs with a 45 sec cooldown, which is completely ridiculous.
Overall the tempest needs to fit its role better. It's supposed to be a SUPPORT UNIT that helps protoss make terrans uncomfortable on taking positions. The void ray is supposed to be the general purpose air unit, and the carrier the end game capital ship.
Right now the tempest occupies these 3 roles, time to redistribute a little.
|
On October 11 2016 22:03 FoxDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2016 18:09 ejozl wrote:
Yeah.. I'm really not scared that 6 range Tempests is too strong. Sure if you try to counter with only Vikings while not mining because of Tempest storm, you might have troubles, but turrets and marines in bunkers can defend it's attack. Get more eco or make a counter attack and let him have that one storm in your mineral line.
If you know it's coming there's no way it's worse than normal Tempests, let alone Widow Mines and Liberators in your mineral line. Pretty sure this is just a post to try and get a nerf in on Protoss, since DKim already mentioned it. you cant kill his first tempest before it gets off its ability in your mineral line you are now 1 base vs 3 base protoss, do you understand? its not about massing tempests if you had read the OP its about that silly ability shutting down every single mech build so the purpose of the test map cant reveal if mech is too strong or not vs protoss in fact if david kim received any stats from the test map whatsoever outside "terran, protoss, zerg" he would be able to tell that mech is insanely underpowered and struggling mightily against all but in tvt
That is exactly the purpose of the early Tempest: To try to prevent Mech from happening. Because when Terrans arrive at the mech composition Protoss or Zerg is basically dead. The damage of the new siege tanks is ridiculous and the new Cyclone is also a pain. The essence of Starcraft is to find counters. Find a way to kill the early Tempest and don't say it's impossible to stop.
Now if you just want to try out the new Mech vs Protoss or Zerg tell your opponent at the start of the Test Map game that you want to tech up to Mech compo and try it out. People in test map ladder are very accomodating because they want to test their new unit abilities also. In my last Test map game I agreed with my Zerg opponent that I will try the Tempest and he will try the swarm host.
|
|
|
On October 12 2016 12:36 Raineeb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2016 22:03 FoxDog wrote:On October 11 2016 18:09 ejozl wrote:
Yeah.. I'm really not scared that 6 range Tempests is too strong. Sure if you try to counter with only Vikings while not mining because of Tempest storm, you might have troubles, but turrets and marines in bunkers can defend it's attack. Get more eco or make a counter attack and let him have that one storm in your mineral line.
If you know it's coming there's no way it's worse than normal Tempests, let alone Widow Mines and Liberators in your mineral line. Pretty sure this is just a post to try and get a nerf in on Protoss, since DKim already mentioned it. you cant kill his first tempest before it gets off its ability in your mineral line you are now 1 base vs 3 base protoss, do you understand? its not about massing tempests if you had read the OP its about that silly ability shutting down every single mech build so the purpose of the test map cant reveal if mech is too strong or not vs protoss in fact if david kim received any stats from the test map whatsoever outside "terran, protoss, zerg" he would be able to tell that mech is insanely underpowered and struggling mightily against all but in tvt That is exactly the purpose of the early Tempest: To try to prevent Mech from happening. Because when Terrans arrive at the mech composition Protoss or Zerg is basically dead. The damage of the new siege tanks is ridiculous and the new Cyclone is also a pain. The essence of Starcraft is to find counters. Find a way to kill the early Tempest and don't say it's impossible to stop.
The essence of Starcraft is to find counters.
Because when Terrans arrive at the mech composition Protoss or Zerg is basically dead.
Hmmmmmm...
|
On October 12 2016 12:36 Raineeb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2016 22:03 FoxDog wrote:On October 11 2016 18:09 ejozl wrote:
Yeah.. I'm really not scared that 6 range Tempests is too strong. Sure if you try to counter with only Vikings while not mining because of Tempest storm, you might have troubles, but turrets and marines in bunkers can defend it's attack. Get more eco or make a counter attack and let him have that one storm in your mineral line.
If you know it's coming there's no way it's worse than normal Tempests, let alone Widow Mines and Liberators in your mineral line. Pretty sure this is just a post to try and get a nerf in on Protoss, since DKim already mentioned it. you cant kill his first tempest before it gets off its ability in your mineral line you are now 1 base vs 3 base protoss, do you understand? its not about massing tempests if you had read the OP its about that silly ability shutting down every single mech build so the purpose of the test map cant reveal if mech is too strong or not vs protoss in fact if david kim received any stats from the test map whatsoever outside "terran, protoss, zerg" he would be able to tell that mech is insanely underpowered and struggling mightily against all but in tvt That is exactly the purpose of the early Tempest: To try to prevent Mech from happening. Because when Terrans arrive at the mech composition Protoss or Zerg is basically dead. The damage of the new siege tanks is ridiculous and the new Cyclone is also a pain. The essence of Starcraft is to find counters. Find a way to kill the early Tempest and don't say it's impossible to stop. Now if you just want to try out the new Mech vs Protoss or Zerg tell your opponent at the start of the Test Map game that you want to tech up to Mech compo and try it out. People in test map ladder are very accomodating because they want to test their new unit abilities also. In my last Test map game I agreed with my Zerg opponent that I will try the Tempest and he will try the swarm host.
at 5 minutes nothing in the game can stop tempestrushes in pvt, you are so far behind by the end of the first ability cast from a tempest that the game is over
but MECH is now acknowledged as a sovereign style and david kim should put equal effort into balancing mech as bio and right now no testing of any kind if possible due to the silly giant changes hes making arbitrarily
dts never needed blink, tempests never needed psistorm, zerg never needed more powerful hydralisk but terran desperately needed more powerful tanks and an actual worthwhile cyclone...
To add to this, your league and race means you should watch the added replay in the OP, i reccomend you trying the build for yourself before its patched just to see what i mean, it is unholdable for terran, it can also be used to kill the very buildings forcing a liftoff at any rate...
|
On October 11 2016 23:18 JackONeill wrote:
trying to attack a protoss on 3 bases that's massing tempests is now completely impossible. PO + the spell DESTROYS bioball, and the spell lasts 30 secs with a 45 sec cooldown, which is completely ridiculous.
Overall the tempest needs to fit its role better. It's supposed to be a SUPPORT UNIT that helps protoss make terrans uncomfortable on taking positions. The void ray is supposed to be the general purpose air unit, and the carrier the end game capital ship.
Right now the tempest occupies these 3 roles, time to redistribute a little.
its even worse for mech, but i can see this being gamebreaking in pvz as well its just that protosses arrent exploring it yet
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
