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The Mvp Dynasty

Forum Index > SC2 General
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The Mvp Dynasty

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics byTanyaJuliet
July 18th, 2016 18:40 GMT



When you look at the time periods of some of the greatest players of all time, there is a trending pattern among the very greatest players of the game. When you look at their peak consistency levels, the amount of time they were able to hold the title best player of the world you notice a trend. Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play.

This article examines the peaks of some of the greatest players, how they got there and why they were unable to keep up their form. And then it will explain how Mvp was able to break that trend and last for another year of competitive play despite getting massive injuries half way through his reign.

There are three other players who have had a significant era of domination of the rest of their peers. They are Life, Taeja, Zest, and to a lesser extent soO.

In the case of Life he had two period of peak dominance that lasted about 6 months each. It lasted from his first GSL win in Sept. 2012 to March 2013 when he won the first HotS tournament at MLG. The reasons of Life's ascendancy were because of a few factors. Most importantly, he shifted the paradigm of Zerg play increasing the tactical options of Zerg and thus changing the tempo. These changes would start to become implemented by other Zergs a few months after he unveiled them in his GSL 2012 run. Secondly, his first peak coincided with bl/infestor which allowed him to have a natural end game army and a way to deal with mech and Protoss end game (Both things Life has historically had a hard time playing against.) Life's fall then coincides with other players increased understanding of his playstyle as well as the newness of the MMMM in HotS. Life seemed either unwilling or unable to deal with the new meta and didn't do much again until the end of 2013.

Life's second reign lasted either 5-6 months from his Blizzcon 2014 victory to April or May of 2015. While he didn't create a paradigm shift as he did the last time, his play returned to its peak form (and it was confirmed later that he just hadn't taken the game seriously again until the month leading into Blizzcon). While Life's tactical plays were spread throughout the meta, Life has always had a stronger intuitive understanding of his own play as well as a strong understanding of series play on when to use an all-in. With those three aspects he was able to dominate SC2 once again until his run was cut short by Dream twice (who played arguably the best BiovZ games of all time skill-wise against Life). Additionally the SH was nerfed which allowed both Protoss a better late game army and Terrans mech, both things Life was unable to deal with for the rest of 2015.

In Taeja's case his reign was much more complex. He was close to the best Terran at the end of 2012 to early 2013, but transferred to WCS NA which took a few months. He then dominated the rest of the next 1.5 years as one of if not the best Terran in play. He did it off his unique defensive playstyle that has yet to be emulated by any other Terran in the world as in many ways it requires a level of game sense and understanding about the game that is nearly unmatched except by the greatest players SC2 has ever produced. The question is whether or no it could be considered a long dynastic pattern as while he beat the best players in multiple international lans, he was never in Korea to win the GSLs. Taeja again proves to be an anomaly in this sense and depending on criteria either does not count or is the second player after Mvp to have had a reign lasting longer than an year.

Finally we come to Zest and soO. Both of them reigned for about 1 year (longer for soO if you count his first GSL finals in 2013) in 2014. Both caused a paradigm-shift. Zest was on the cutting edge of Protoss build orders in every matchup, but especially so in PvP. This is important as the reign of Protoss started with the blink era (early 2014) and essentially continued to a lesser extent through the rest of 2014. soO was in a similar boat as he was the best Zerg in every matchup, though rather than refinement of builds, it was a combination of arguably the best Zerg mechanics seen up to that point (and arguably ever), incredible decisiveness in game (barring finals), and very careful series preparation that had him above the rest of the pack except Zest in 2014.

From this we can see a pattern. The greatest players rise above the rest for a period of time (usually 6 months to an year) because they shifted the meta forward in strategic/tactical ways or had a way of playing that was mechanically or stylistically superior to their peers. They all fell off once they could no longer keep up that form and their paradigm shifts became rote.

So the question is how did Mvp last 2 years? His first year is similar to Zest and soO's. He was both one of the most mechanically sound players, he had great series preparation and he shifted the paradigm forward. However at the beginning of 2012, his form fell way off and if he had followed the pattern of Taeja/Life/Zest/soO, he should have fell off. Instead he came back to win.

Mvp's 2012 year was essentially built off of only intangibles. The first thing to note was his grit. His almost pathological unwillingness to go down without a fight both in-game and outside the game. Once Life seemed to hit a block in a meta game, he'd just seemingly give up and not try again until the end of the year when Blizzcon came. This was in contrast to Mvp who kept going despite meta hurdles in the game, his own injuries and his own failing form.

Secondly, Mvp was the forefather of Terran in SC2 and because of that he also had the largest variety of builds any Terran and could do all of them at a decent level. He combined this with his meta knowledge. Meta knowledge in this case considers both the standards of any particular matchup as well as his own reputation and approximate skill level his opponents think Mvp is at and thus what he will do. Mvp was constantly catching players off guard. If they thought he was going for a late game, he'd cheese. If they thought he was playing standard, he'd play greedy. If they thought he was playing cheesey, he'd play super greedy. This combined with the wide variety of builds he could employ meant that he was incredibly hard to predict. He then combined all of that into a series plan. Rain was already a standard safe Protoss player, but Mvp all-ined early on to make Rain even more afraid allowing Mvp to play for the super greedy macro game and allow him to beat Rain in the late-game. This kind of psychological warfare made Rain both afraid of the early and late game and had him playing to Mvp's tune their entire series.

Finally it was his innovation. Mvp created multiple niche builds to surprise players on his runs. He shifted the paradigm of both TvP and TvZ twice in order to win tournaments (His 3CC Hellion/banshee and creating the SCV Pull vs Rain). He also had multiple niche builds (the max battlecruiers split map vs Squirtle) comes to mind.

While Mvp had a 2 year reign, the second year was completely different from the first. The first year was done multiple times and is fairly similar to other players like Nestea, MC, Life, Zest or soO. Off his first year alone, he'd still be one of the greatest players ever. It was his second year that made Mvp's reign so unique. He was out matched mechanically and inform by nearly every major player he faced, yet he kept coming out on top with his mind-games, his experience and his strategical thinking. When we think of dominating run by SC2's greatest players, we have to consider the context of those runs and how they were done. In Mvp's case his 2012 run was the largest miracle SC2 has ever witnessed and is still the highest bar set for the strongest run ever done off of the strength of one player's strategy and grit.


Writer: stuchiu
Graphics: TanyaJuliet
Editor: CosmicSpiral
Photo Credit: silverfire
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TL+ Member
QuiL
Profile Joined March 2016
Germany9 Posts
July 18 2016 19:00 GMT
#2
OMG Yes love it so much!
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
July 18 2016 19:07 GMT
#3
Yep, MVP is pretty much the greatest, great article too!
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 18 2016 19:10 GMT
#4
I don't understand how you can define 2012 as part of Mvp's reign tbh. You could even make a point about some poor performance in 2011, but i don't wanna go that far.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 19:23:49
July 18 2016 19:20 GMT
#5
I love Mvp too, but to say he had a 2 year reign is ludicrous.

2011, sure. 2012 however, he never looked like a very dominant player. Rather, he just miraculously won when it counted in the gsl. Hell, even in gsl he had several gaps in form that make this claim even more questionable. His 2012 of gsl went:

s1: ro16 -> s2: 1st -> s3: ro16 -> s4: 2nd -> s5: ro32

outside of that he had almost no results aside from winning IEM in the middle of the year against foreigners and Nestea. DRG alone was more worthy of being considered the best for the first half of 2012.

Also, where is Bogus? He's much more deserving of a mention than soO in my eyes.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
July 18 2016 19:21 GMT
#6
Mvp is instant hype.

Though I'll never forgive his bunkers against nestea. Such a dirty terran.
Buddy168
Profile Joined June 2012
United States157 Posts
July 18 2016 19:21 GMT
#7
I'm starting to question whether this MVP fan thing is more of an MVP obsession
"You're being a useless fucking asshole" - Day[9]
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55468 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 19:42:29
July 18 2016 19:37 GMT
#8
I love Mvp as much as the next guy, but how many more articles about him do we need? His entry in The Greatest of All Time said everything that needed to be said.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
SHODAN
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom1060 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 19:40:19
July 18 2016 19:40 GMT
#9
On July 19 2016 04:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand how you can define 2012 as part of Mvp's reign tbh. You could even make a point about some poor performance in 2011, but i don't wanna go that far.


If you are only looking at his results, I agree... Mvp was not particularly dominant in 2012. but I can't stress enough how much he shaped the meta in that time. 2012 is the year Mvp pioneered and developed mech vZ. he destroyed all the patch zergs at IEM Cologne, despite the advantage of infestor/brood lord. Mvp almost beat Life with his mech style in the S4 GSL finals.

even though Mvp's mechanics were inferior to most players in code S, he still managed to get 1st and 2nd place. every terran player was copying his builds and tactics right until the end of WoL. his understanding of the game was light years ahead of every one else. well experienced and an expert in mind games... strong mentality that never weakened under any situation... a man who had the balls of steel to 2 rax bunker rush in a GSL finals... that is why Mvp is called king of wings.
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
July 18 2016 19:41 GMT
#10
On July 19 2016 04:37 Elentos wrote:
I love Mvp as much as the next guy, but how many more articles about him do we need?


Classic Mvp: when you think everything has been said about him, he'll make a crazy comeback in articles no one would've thought of.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55468 Posts
July 18 2016 19:48 GMT
#11
On July 19 2016 04:41 Daswollvieh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 04:37 Elentos wrote:
I love Mvp as much as the next guy, but how many more articles about him do we need?


Classic Mvp: when you think everything has been said about him, he'll make a crazy comeback in articles no one would've thought of.

Maybe. If there was anything in this article that hadn't been said before. By stuchiu. Multiple times.
On July 19 2016 04:20 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Also, where is Bogus? He's much more deserving of a mention than soO in my eyes.

Yeah Inno's 2013 was pretty good.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
iamkaokao
Profile Joined March 2011
108 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 20:11:20
July 18 2016 19:56 GMT
#12
MC and Inno should be considered in the same tier as life - zest - taeja , literally same if not more domination eras than these

innovation carried through entire leagues , as STX and SKT , and was certainly favorite to win every 1v1 tournament the ACE of telecom , and MC its just a fat king no need to explain , he confirms he is the best protoss everytime he faces zest no matter which era meta or condition it is

there are many players in the same tier as soo btw... soulkey , parting , maru for example
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
July 18 2016 20:02 GMT
#13
another article to convince people that Mvp was more succesful than Life... Maybe 10 articles more and everyone will agree with your view.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
July 18 2016 20:04 GMT
#14
On July 19 2016 04:20 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:

Also, where is Bogus? He's much more deserving of a mention than soO in my eyes.

stuchio thinks he's a patchterran
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
RaiKageRyu
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada4773 Posts
July 18 2016 20:04 GMT
#15
much shorter than i expected. was predicting a massive article with pictures,diagrams, charts, and videos.

this was like a summary recap of what was said on the GOAT list.
Someone call down the Thunder?
Blargh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2101 Posts
July 18 2016 20:16 GMT
#16
Bogus never really innovated (ironically) but he was absolutely a top tier Terran, and he pretty much perfected the meta.

But yes, why another mvp article? I do think Mvp was the best StarCraft player, and with Life's scandal and stuff, he pretty much retains his #1 placement.
iamkaokao
Profile Joined March 2011
108 Posts
July 18 2016 20:23 GMT
#17
On July 19 2016 05:16 Blargh wrote:
Bogus never really innovated (ironically) but he was absolutely a top tier Terran, and he pretty much perfected the meta.

But yes, why another mvp article? I do think Mvp was the best StarCraft player, and with Life's scandal and stuff, he pretty much retains his #1 placement.



whatever life did outside gaming is irrelevant , since this is about skill and achievements , not about a moral contest
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
July 18 2016 20:24 GMT
#18
I thought this was going to be about MarineLorD.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
ZertoN
Profile Joined February 2014
Germany214 Posts
July 18 2016 20:26 GMT
#19
another fanboy article of one of the most untalented writers out there

User was warned for this post
"I don't like games that i need to think a lot, i am not interested in those games." - TaeJa, 2016
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 20:47:51
July 18 2016 20:46 GMT
#20
On July 19 2016 04:40 SHODAN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 04:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand how you can define 2012 as part of Mvp's reign tbh. You could even make a point about some poor performance in 2011, but i don't wanna go that far.


If you are only looking at his results, I agree... Mvp was not particularly dominant in 2012. but I can't stress enough how much he shaped the meta in that time. 2012 is the year Mvp pioneered and developed mech vZ. he destroyed all the patch zergs at IEM Cologne, despite the advantage of infestor/brood lord. Mvp almost beat Life with his mech style in the S4 GSL finals.

even though Mvp's mechanics were inferior to most players in code S, he still managed to get 1st and 2nd place. every terran player was copying his builds and tactics right until the end of WoL. his understanding of the game was light years ahead of every one else. well experienced and an expert in mind games... strong mentality that never weakened under any situation... a man who had the balls of steel to 2 rax bunker rush in a GSL finals... that is why Mvp is called king of wings.


Well yeah i hink results are kinda important tbh :D I am not saying he didn't do anything in 2012, but i don't see how it would ever count as part of his dominance. I think that statement is quite absurd.

I also don't agree with "innovations" being a factor because it's hardly tangible. All we can say is if a player was succesfull with a particular style, giving credit on top of that for something we have no idea about is questionable imo.

At the end of the day you need results, Mvp had some good results in 2012 but not nearly good enough for it to be called dominant i think.

The funny thing is if we look at 2011 you could argue that he didn't really dominate the whole year either, considering that after his GSL win in January he had rather poor results till august (yes he won that wc thing, but the rest wasn't that amazing)
So just from looking at the results in liquipedia i could even say this: Mvp was dominant Agust 2011 - January 2012. 6 months


On July 19 2016 05:26 ZertoN wrote:
another fanboy article of one of the most untalented writers out there

User was warned for this post


If you wanna argue your point do it. But this posting style is rather pointless, i would say you are one of the most untalented critics out there
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8224 Posts
July 18 2016 20:50 GMT
#21
Strong title, weak article.
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
July 18 2016 20:53 GMT
#22
I didn't know about Starcraft during Mvp's reign, I am so late to the party that I didn't see him play. Still enjoyed the read =)

Stuchiu so great and famous he even has haters!
fireforce7
Profile Joined June 2010
United States334 Posts
July 18 2016 20:59 GMT
#23
I wanna see this guy play again...:'(
I'm terranfying
Creager
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1889 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 21:17:16
July 18 2016 21:16 GMT
#24
Jürgen, the only bonjwa SC2 has seen so far.
... einmal mit Profis spielen!
royalroadweed
Profile Joined April 2013
United States8301 Posts
July 18 2016 21:18 GMT
#25
Ummm.....INnoVation?
"Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"
Riner1212
Profile Joined November 2012
United States337 Posts
July 18 2016 21:33 GMT
#26
MVP will always be remembered as the bonjwa of sc2
Sjow "pretty ez life as protoss"
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 21:43:33
July 18 2016 21:43 GMT
#27
On July 19 2016 05:53 Silvana wrote:
I didn't know about Starcraft during Mvp's reign, I am so late to the party that I didn't see him play. Still enjoyed the read =)

Stuchiu so great and famous he even has haters!


Oh man you missed out. MVP is easily my favorite Terran and was sad he just retired. One of the very very few non zergs I liked and would even root for him against Zergs (rare for me to do! They couldn't be my favorite zergs though ).
When I think of something else, something will go here
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
July 18 2016 21:51 GMT
#28
Kinda short, and I somewhat agree with the criticism (did he really dominate 2012?)

Honestly, for an article titled "The MVP dynasty" (instead of "Mvp dynasty"...), I expected more about his breakthrough in how to play Terran, in how he was emulated and copied, how he is the only guy with 4 GSL wins (I think?), etc...
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
July 18 2016 22:13 GMT
#29
On July 19 2016 04:37 Elentos wrote:
I love Mvp as much as the next guy, but how many more articles about him do we need? His entry in The Greatest of All Time said everything that needed to be said.


Not the writer fault if there isn't any worthwhile stories being written by the current players nowadays.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55468 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 22:33:16
July 18 2016 22:23 GMT
#30
On July 19 2016 07:13 Noocta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 04:37 Elentos wrote:
I love Mvp as much as the next guy, but how many more articles about him do we need? His entry in The Greatest of All Time said everything that needed to be said.


Not the writer fault if there isn't any worthwhile stories being written by the current players nowadays.

He could just not write a new article until something comes up instead of recycling a topic he's already extensively covered.

Besides, I'm pretty sure stuchiu still has articles about other topics done that haven't been released yet.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 22:36:57
July 18 2016 22:35 GMT
#31
On July 19 2016 07:13 Noocta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 04:37 Elentos wrote:
I love Mvp as much as the next guy, but how many more articles about him do we need? His entry in The Greatest of All Time said everything that needed to be said.


Not the writer fault if there isn't any worthwhile stories being written by the current players nowadays.

There is always a story to find. If you are skilled enough (i think stuchiu is) you should be able to connect the dots to a meaningful story, even if it isn't about an era of dominance.

I will quote my last post and hope someone bites, because i would be interested to see some other opinions on that :>

Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 04:40 SHODAN wrote:
On July 19 2016 04:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't understand how you can define 2012 as part of Mvp's reign tbh. You could even make a point about some poor performance in 2011, but i don't wanna go that far.


If you are only looking at his results, I agree... Mvp was not particularly dominant in 2012. but I can't stress enough how much he shaped the meta in that time. 2012 is the year Mvp pioneered and developed mech vZ. he destroyed all the patch zergs at IEM Cologne, despite the advantage of infestor/brood lord. Mvp almost beat Life with his mech style in the S4 GSL finals.

even though Mvp's mechanics were inferior to most players in code S, he still managed to get 1st and 2nd place. every terran player was copying his builds and tactics right until the end of WoL. his understanding of the game was light years ahead of every one else. well experienced and an expert in mind games... strong mentality that never weakened under any situation... a man who had the balls of steel to 2 rax bunker rush in a GSL finals... that is why Mvp is called king of wings.


Well yeah i hink results are kinda important tbh :D I am not saying he didn't do anything in 2012, but i don't see how it would ever count as part of his dominance. I think that statement is quite absurd.

I also don't agree with "innovations" being a factor because it's hardly tangible. All we can say is if a player was succesfull with a particular style, giving credit on top of that for something we have no idea about is questionable imo.

At the end of the day you need results, Mvp had some good results in 2012 but not nearly good enough for it to be called dominant i think.

The funny thing is if we look at 2011 you could argue that he didn't really dominate the whole year either, considering that after his GSL win in January he had rather poor results till august (yes he won that wc thing, but the rest wasn't that amazing)
So just from looking at the results in liquipedia i could even say this: Mvp was dominant Agust 2011 - January 2012. 6 months


Is that too hard of a judgement? Why?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
July 18 2016 22:47 GMT
#32
On July 19 2016 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[...]


haha you're that bored that you're looking for a fight? I'll help you pick up one quite fast:

SOS SUCKS MARU SUCKS JIN AIR WORST KT
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12986 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-18 23:25:37
July 18 2016 22:47 GMT
#33
Yeah MVP's reign was in 2011- he's only the greatest player because he managed to defy all odds again and again in his career after that- such as his GSL win, 2nd place to Life, and that one WCS run he did in 2013 where he beat innovation.

But his accomplishments in 2012 are the anomalies in that year- which makes them special. He was not dominating by any means.

I watched SC2 since beta reguarly and heavily up until late 2013, so I remember all the relative strengths of players at different times. I feel like I've been reading a lot in the few things I read now on teamliquid which are trying to repaint the past in a more romantic light.

Also can we remember that even though I might say that during one timeframe no one has dominated as much as MVP ( and that might be true)- let's not forget that while he was great in TvT and TvZ during his reign in 2011 his TvP was always mediocore and that's where he often lost.
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
July 18 2016 23:01 GMT
#34
Not trying to offend here, but it really detracts from the quality of the article when there are so many grammatical mistakes. It makes it seem like a 2nd rate effort was given.

I disliked MVP so much back then but I accept him now. I wish he could've been able to practice like he wanted. In my opinion, it's true, no one dominated like he did. He was on another level.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
sa1Ko
Profile Joined July 2015
Argentina99 Posts
July 18 2016 23:32 GMT
#35
good article stuch
fx9
Profile Joined November 2013
117 Posts
July 18 2016 23:33 GMT
#36
Yawn, another weak attempt to include Taeja into GOAT conversation....
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 18 2016 23:45 GMT
#37
On July 19 2016 07:47 Silvana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[...]


haha you're that bored that you're looking for a fight? I'll help you pick up one quite fast:

SOS SUCKS MARU SUCKS JIN AIR WORST KT

No i am looking to argue about the statements made in the article instead of either saying "wow stuchiu you are the best" or "wow stuchiu you suck"
I am not interested in either of those two tbh


I don't think there is any value to these articles if it isn't dicsussed afterwards, stuchiu's word isn't inherently correct/wrong.

IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Garemie
Profile Joined April 2011
United States248 Posts
July 19 2016 00:11 GMT
#38
gg Mvp.

Thanks Stuchiu
Bomber | CJ herO | Snute
IMSupervisor
Profile Joined June 2016
Australia138 Posts
July 19 2016 00:42 GMT
#39
On July 19 2016 08:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 07:47 Silvana wrote:
On July 19 2016 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[...]


haha you're that bored that you're looking for a fight? I'll help you pick up one quite fast:

SOS SUCKS MARU SUCKS JIN AIR WORST KT

No i am looking to argue about the statements made in the article instead of either saying "wow stuchiu you are the best" or "wow stuchiu you suck"
I am not interested in either of those two tbh


I don't think there is any value to these articles if it isn't dicsussed afterwards, stuchiu's word isn't inherently correct/wrong.



Do you also hold that opinion for novels? Poems? Textbooks? Of course people find value in reading.
NihilisticGod
Profile Joined March 2011
Northern Ireland174 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 00:57:25
July 19 2016 00:50 GMT
#40
I miss him from the scene. I miss how you usually saw something new when you watched one of Mvp's series. Then you saw every other terran doing it. I miss how he crushed MarineKingPrime's dreams almost effortlessly, denying him every time they met. I miss his tenacity, it always made for the most exciting games. He had (and subsequently has) no equal. He reigned supreme as the King of Wings. His team shirt heavy with GSL gold champion pins.

Thanks for the reminder Stuchiu. Oh yea, also I remember when his physical condition wasn't great he just busted out the multi cheese in every series to win a GSL, that was pretty epic.

Ah we may never see his like again.

oh i forgot to mention how much I loved that he was still ridiculously good even when the Terran race wasn't, he was like a meta machine forging his own way
Too weird to live... too rare to die.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 19 2016 01:04 GMT
#41
On July 19 2016 09:42 IMSupervisor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 08:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On July 19 2016 07:47 Silvana wrote:
On July 19 2016 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[...]


haha you're that bored that you're looking for a fight? I'll help you pick up one quite fast:

SOS SUCKS MARU SUCKS JIN AIR WORST KT

No i am looking to argue about the statements made in the article instead of either saying "wow stuchiu you are the best" or "wow stuchiu you suck"
I am not interested in either of those two tbh


I don't think there is any value to these articles if it isn't dicsussed afterwards, stuchiu's word isn't inherently correct/wrong.



Do you also hold that opinion for novels? Poems? Textbooks? Of course people find value in reading.


What do you mean? If you don't engage with what you just read it is pretty pointless, yes. Considering that we are on a discussion forum i would suspect people to discuss the content they just read.
Instead most people simply post "great work stuchiu" or "stuchiu so biased lol"


I mean sure if nobody wants to actually engage my point that is fine, disappointing but fine nonetheless.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 01:22:44
July 19 2016 01:16 GMT
#42
I am very glad to have witnessed Mvp's reign. His plays were the most inspiring plays I have witnessed from SC2. He was the proof that pure strategies could win you not only games but championships. He freaking won his last GSL when protoss were crushing terrans left and right. Parting was almost unbeatable in TvP back then until he faced Mvp.
Lightrush
Profile Joined July 2015
Bulgaria164 Posts
July 19 2016 01:47 GMT
#43
The grand daddy of SC2 terran
User was warned for this post
ZergX
Profile Joined October 2010
France436 Posts
July 19 2016 01:48 GMT
#44
Thank you for this article. Very well written. I liked it. All Hail Mvpwee !
Nestea fightingg ! DRG fightingggg !! Sen fightinggg ! July fighting ! SoO fighting !
scoo2r
Profile Joined December 2015
Canada90 Posts
July 19 2016 02:14 GMT
#45
Great article! Other players should try to reinvent themselves from time to time.
Another day, another depot.
Apoteosis
Profile Joined June 2011
Chile820 Posts
July 19 2016 02:18 GMT
#46
another fanboy article who ignores the fact that half of mvp's tournament wins were when terran was absurdly overpowered but anyways, I am already used to stu's fanboyism.

despite that fact, tho, stu is a great writer.
Life won like 200k and didn't hire a proper criminal lawyer.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12336 Posts
July 19 2016 03:22 GMT
#47
Love his games so much, wish he would return.
I still remember him being able to play mech bio mech equally well and each with its own greedy and cheesy and macro build.
It was never boring to watch his games.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
shortistuff
Profile Joined December 2013
Australia14 Posts
July 19 2016 03:46 GMT
#48
Although I agree that MVP was not "dominating" the entirety of 2012, he was still the best overall player in the GSL for the year according to their ranking system. To me then he was overall the best Korean player of 2012.
GSL ranking: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/Rankings#Current_Rankings
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
July 19 2016 04:12 GMT
#49
On July 19 2016 12:46 shortistuff wrote:
Although I agree that MVP was not "dominating" the entirety of 2012, he was still the best overall player in the GSL for the year according to their ranking system. To me then he was overall the best Korean player of 2012.
GSL ranking: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/Rankings#Current_Rankings

Shhhh, dont comme here with your facts. Mvp was trash tier in 2012. He accidentally went to the game finals twice, so there's really nothing to see here.
CptMarvel
Profile Joined May 2014
France236 Posts
July 19 2016 04:42 GMT
#50
Bogus' name should replace soO's in this article. MVP IS BOSS
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
July 19 2016 05:06 GMT
#51
Mvp was to sc2 as Nada was to BW. Both peaked early in their career, but kept coming back to win tournaments or at least make deep runs. As such, neither could truly be counted out until they retired.
Chr15t
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1103 Posts
July 19 2016 05:22 GMT
#52
I knew today was going to be a good day
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
IMSupervisor
Profile Joined June 2016
Australia138 Posts
July 19 2016 06:23 GMT
#53
On July 19 2016 10:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 09:42 IMSupervisor wrote:
On July 19 2016 08:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On July 19 2016 07:47 Silvana wrote:
On July 19 2016 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[...]


haha you're that bored that you're looking for a fight? I'll help you pick up one quite fast:

SOS SUCKS MARU SUCKS JIN AIR WORST KT

No i am looking to argue about the statements made in the article instead of either saying "wow stuchiu you are the best" or "wow stuchiu you suck"
I am not interested in either of those two tbh


I don't think there is any value to these articles if it isn't dicsussed afterwards, stuchiu's word isn't inherently correct/wrong.



Do you also hold that opinion for novels? Poems? Textbooks? Of course people find value in reading.


What do you mean? If you don't engage with what you just read it is pretty pointless, yes. Considering that we are on a discussion forum i would suspect people to discuss the content they just read.
Instead most people simply post "great work stuchiu" or "stuchiu so biased lol"


I mean sure if nobody wants to actually engage my point that is fine, disappointing but fine nonetheless.


You are an example of a person who has read the article and wants to discuss\share their point of view. The people saying thank you are examples of people who read the article and have no desire to share their point of view. You said "I don't think there is any value to these articles if it isn't dicsussed afterwards", but I think there is. I also think it's great that each article has a discussion that follows it with people bringing further detail to light.
Sakat
Profile Blog Joined October 2014
Croatia1599 Posts
July 19 2016 06:26 GMT
#54
The first time I saw Mvp play was at Blizzcon 2013... I remeber everyone being super hyped about his match and said it was going to be the best match of the day, but he lost 0-3 (to JD I think)...
So, I was a little bit confused. I didn't know of any of his accomplishments, since I hadn't followed SC2 prior to that tournament. I went back and watched some of the old GSL VODs... Damn... He really was good... That was the most entertaining weekend of SC2 I have ever experienced (even up to this point), and it wasn't due to the actual Blizzcon, but due to old VODs od Mvp...
My boy Ptak defeated two GSL champions!
imCHIEN
Profile Joined January 2016
14 Posts
July 19 2016 06:28 GMT
#55
I was a Toss until I saw what MVP and Taeja doing... Now Im happy for being a Terran
gab12
Profile Joined June 2016
Poland147 Posts
July 19 2016 07:20 GMT
#56
Great read
partysnatcher
Profile Joined August 2010
156 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 08:51:10
July 19 2016 07:29 GMT
#57
It's good to have enthusiasm, but the "legend chants" about MVP has gotten old very quick.

For those who are new to SC2, MVP was dominant in the most imbalanced period of SC2 history. For proof, check the GSL race charts from MVPs "years of dominance" and see that it's not only MVP who was dominant, he was joined by buckets upon buckets of Terran, with a regular occurrence of 40-50% Terrans in GSL Code S. This was when GSL was (non-jokingly) called "GomTvT" because of the endless Terran vs Terran matches.

It was also called GomTvT because TvTs lasted longer than the other matchups - most Terrans specialized in easy 1-base game ending pressures against Zerg and Protoss. MVP was no exception. The last thing he was famous for in SC2 was mass one base hellions. ("How brilliant! What a legend!")

And yes, this ridiculous situation lasted for 2-3 years, and is a significant amount of the reason why SC2s player numbers dropped like a stone in the immediate months after game release. Most SC2 friends I know dropped out of SC2 in 2010-2011, precisely because of the Terran advantage on ladder.

Anyway:

For non-Terrans that watched MVP play, sure, he was good at his early pressures with followup. But it was much more entertaining, not to mention, more impressive, to see race underdogs like Nestea and MC invent new stuff, claw through the Terran advantage, and win tournaments against the odds. So those two names will for me (and very many others) be far superior to MVP in terms of early SC2 history (and as legends go, MC is much, much bigger than MVP in SC2 history).

Again: I like indepth articles and building up SC2 heroes - but one "MVP is a legend"-article was more than enough.

MVPs string of wins signifies for many, including me, a tragedy for SC2. The Terran dominance in 2010-2012, and the "Terran exceptionalism" (the idea that Terrans players are better than the other races and should have a higher win rate) has leaked into and negatively affected LOTV. It's an important reason why SC2's popularity curve has been diminished over the years.

With MVPs quick exit from the game after it started balancing out, there's no doubt that the imbalances played a fundamental role in his achievements.

I think we should look for other legends than the "patch legend" MVP. Subtracting the racial bias, Nestea was better at the game, as was MC. Like it or not, but a significant amount of SC2s fans will agree on this.

MVP fanboys responding to this post will be ignored.
nighcol
Profile Joined January 2012
298 Posts
July 19 2016 09:09 GMT
#58
I watched the State of Play: Rise of The King documentary last week as it had the free premiere and was surprised to learn that Mvp's health issues seemed to already be really bad in 2011. His unparalleled achievements seem even more incredible considering that. Life used to be the only other player I felt got close but now he's made them all meaningless for me.

Other things that stood out in that doc for me was a very similar statement to JD's about playing for work without fun in the KeSPA system but the difference being that things started going well when he could practice on his own terms for SC2 and actually enjoy it. Also his fear that Korean SC2 would get taken over by the big corporations running the KeSPA teams has happened but then again it doesn't matter for him anymore and it's far from the worst development anyway...
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
July 19 2016 09:19 GMT
#59
MVP is good and Maru will pick up his legacy.
maru lover forever
sfbaydave
Profile Joined May 2011
United States32 Posts
July 19 2016 09:21 GMT
#60
Please write one of these articles about Nestea too!!
Khai
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia551 Posts
July 19 2016 10:45 GMT
#61
Funny reading this and getting reminded of Life denying Mvp his G5L trophy, my biggest regret as an Mvp fan. Wish Mvp did take that G5L trophy but his glory is still beyond anyone else without it. I cringe putting Life and Mvp in the same sentence seeing how Life later threw it all away.

I'm a big Mvp fan but there's no denying there is a simple explanation as to why Mvp could dominate so much during the period of two years early in SC2 history. Kespa hasn't switched yet at that point and SC2 was a lot less competitive than it became after his reign had ended. In many ways he peaked at the perfect time, he left the BW scene early and moved into SC2 becoming one of the most mechanically sound and smartest player. He had his opportunity and he took it with both hands, truly the first bonjwa of SC2. I do wonder at times what would happen if he hadn't been injured, he had a start over the later Kespa pros and would've given them a good run for their money.
FataLe
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand4492 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 13:23:39
July 19 2016 11:23 GMT
#62
Still bitter he denied the chosen one (Squirtle) his royal road. I truly believe Squirtle would have had a very different career had he won that final game. But still, a testament to MVP's ability to just win where it counted.
hi. big fan.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
July 19 2016 13:19 GMT
#63
On July 19 2016 19:45 Khai wrote:
Funny reading this and getting reminded of Life denying Mvp his G5L trophy, my biggest regret as an Mvp fan. Wish Mvp did take that G5L trophy but his glory is still beyond anyone else without it. I cringe putting Life and Mvp in the same sentence seeing how Life later threw it all away.

I'm a big Mvp fan but there's no denying there is a simple explanation as to why Mvp could dominate so much during the period of two years early in SC2 history. Kespa hasn't switched yet at that point and SC2 was a lot less competitive than it became after his reign had ended. In many ways he peaked at the perfect time, he left the BW scene early and moved into SC2 becoming one of the most mechanically sound and smartest player. He had his opportunity and he took it with both hands, truly the first bonjwa of SC2. I do wonder at times what would happen if he hadn't been injured, he had a start over the later Kespa pros and would've given them a good run for their money.


Yea, Life really put a stop to a lot of potentially incredibly storylines - Mvp winning G5L, MMA winning Blizzcon in 2014, Flash winning the first MLG of HotS.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
July 19 2016 13:52 GMT
#64
Agreed with most of the posters. Why this again, why now, what's the point?

Are there no other present-day storylines to write about, instead of rehashing old ones? Yes, it may get us all misty-eyed nostalgic, and maybe reignite the passion of older fan-boys who stopped following SC2 (which I doubt this article will bring them back anyway). Instead, I see this article as being a disservice to the current community. The implied message is that today's players are not worth raving and writing about, their achievements will always pale in comparison of the old legends, and essentially the state of SC2 is stagnant or dying. Yes, that's really the feeling I get when I read an article like this: the game is dying, and all we can do is celebrate the past. I know that's never the intention of the writer, but it sure comes out that way.

How about Zest? Inno? Stats? Maru? The list goes on. The piece doesn't have to be on dominance, it could be on anything - their recent achievements, innovative plays, etc. Sheesh! Stop singing praises on MVP and Taeja already. We've heard them many times before, and they're still ringing in our ears. Sure, our inner fanboyism is a good source of inspiration, but the hallmark of a great writer is to be able to write about anything objectively.

Sorry about the rant. The only reason I'm ranting is that I do admire the work done by TL writers including stuchiu, and hold them to high standards. Please don't stop writing. But please try writing more on new interesting storylines!
gg no re thx
theinfamousone
Profile Joined February 2011
United States103 Posts
July 19 2016 14:30 GMT
#65
I remember when MVP won freaking GSL and then came over to MLG and just destroyed everyone in a totally different style tournament where you get basically no time to to prepare for your opponent (unlike GSL which you get a week to prepare one match up and figure out mind games and watch vods to discover and then prepare builds to specifically take advantage of your opponent's style). That's just hard to be imagine anyone being good enough to do that, although I believe Life did as well not too long after.

But yeah, no Innovation even honorably mentioned? I guess I can kind of understand since even though he's won lots of tournaments since 2013, he's always been near the top and while he has usually been disputably considered the best, he has come in second quite a few times or gone done in Ro4s etc.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
July 19 2016 14:42 GMT
#66
Also, doesn't the term 'dynasty' suggest some kind of lineage and succession? Weak title. Call MVP an 'Emperor' if you want (though the Boxer fanboys may revolt), but he sure didn't leave any dynasty.

The title would've made more sense if it was 'Slayers Dynasty'. Trace the history from MMA to Dark. See? New storyline!
gg no re thx
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
July 19 2016 15:13 GMT
#67
On July 19 2016 22:52 RKC wrote:
Agreed with most of the posters. Why this again, why now, what's the point?

Are there no other present-day storylines to write about, instead of rehashing old ones? Yes, it may get us all misty-eyed nostalgic, and maybe reignite the passion of older fan-boys who stopped following SC2 (which I doubt this article will bring them back anyway). Instead, I see this article as being a disservice to the current community. The implied message is that today's players are not worth raving and writing about, their achievements will always pale in comparison of the old legends, and essentially the state of SC2 is stagnant or dying. Yes, that's really the feeling I get when I read an article like this: the game is dying, and all we can do is celebrate the past. I know that's never the intention of the writer, but it sure comes out that way.

How about Zest? Inno? Stats? Maru? The list goes on. The piece doesn't have to be on dominance, it could be on anything - their recent achievements, innovative plays, etc. Sheesh! Stop singing praises on MVP and Taeja already. We've heard them many times before, and they're still ringing in our ears. Sure, our inner fanboyism is a good source of inspiration, but the hallmark of a great writer is to be able to write about anything objectively.

Sorry about the rant. The only reason I'm ranting is that I do admire the work done by TL writers including stuchiu, and hold them to high standards. Please don't stop writing. But please try writing more on new interesting storylines!


Hmm I didn't feel that way, but maybe you are right, some people can get that implied message. But don't be so hard on stuchiu, iirc the last piece he wrote was about Zest so it's not all about the legends of the past.

Anyways stu I demand a Stats article!!!! cmon he deserves it
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
July 19 2016 15:13 GMT
#68
On July 19 2016 23:42 RKC wrote:
Also, doesn't the term 'dynasty' suggest some kind of lineage and succession? Weak title. Call MVP an 'Emperor' if you want (though the Boxer fanboys may revolt), but he sure didn't leave any dynasty.

Mvp changed the way terran was played and understood. Taeja was extremely creative and his understanding of the game and phenomenal execution led to his success, but it just remained Taeja's play. It didn't really push the meta forward or influence terran play on the whole. Mvp did.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55468 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 15:23:22
July 19 2016 15:19 GMT
#69
On July 20 2016 00:13 Silvana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 22:52 RKC wrote:
Agreed with most of the posters. Why this again, why now, what's the point?

Are there no other present-day storylines to write about, instead of rehashing old ones? Yes, it may get us all misty-eyed nostalgic, and maybe reignite the passion of older fan-boys who stopped following SC2 (which I doubt this article will bring them back anyway). Instead, I see this article as being a disservice to the current community. The implied message is that today's players are not worth raving and writing about, their achievements will always pale in comparison of the old legends, and essentially the state of SC2 is stagnant or dying. Yes, that's really the feeling I get when I read an article like this: the game is dying, and all we can do is celebrate the past. I know that's never the intention of the writer, but it sure comes out that way.

How about Zest? Inno? Stats? Maru? The list goes on. The piece doesn't have to be on dominance, it could be on anything - their recent achievements, innovative plays, etc. Sheesh! Stop singing praises on MVP and Taeja already. We've heard them many times before, and they're still ringing in our ears. Sure, our inner fanboyism is a good source of inspiration, but the hallmark of a great writer is to be able to write about anything objectively.

Sorry about the rant. The only reason I'm ranting is that I do admire the work done by TL writers including stuchiu, and hold them to high standards. Please don't stop writing. But please try writing more on new interesting storylines!


Hmm I didn't feel that way, but maybe you are right, some people can get that implied message. But don't be so hard on stuchiu, iirc the last piece he wrote was about Zest so it's not all about the legends of the past.

Anyways stu I demand a Stats article!!!! cmon he deserves it

Well he got some shit for the Zest article, too, because he prematurely declared him the "last titan".

But yeah, a Stats article would be nice. Maybe make it a double feature with Classic. "How We Got Good And Nobody Cared"
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
July 19 2016 15:28 GMT
#70
On July 20 2016 00:19 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2016 00:13 Silvana wrote:
On July 19 2016 22:52 RKC wrote:
Agreed with most of the posters. Why this again, why now, what's the point?

Are there no other present-day storylines to write about, instead of rehashing old ones? Yes, it may get us all misty-eyed nostalgic, and maybe reignite the passion of older fan-boys who stopped following SC2 (which I doubt this article will bring them back anyway). Instead, I see this article as being a disservice to the current community. The implied message is that today's players are not worth raving and writing about, their achievements will always pale in comparison of the old legends, and essentially the state of SC2 is stagnant or dying. Yes, that's really the feeling I get when I read an article like this: the game is dying, and all we can do is celebrate the past. I know that's never the intention of the writer, but it sure comes out that way.

How about Zest? Inno? Stats? Maru? The list goes on. The piece doesn't have to be on dominance, it could be on anything - their recent achievements, innovative plays, etc. Sheesh! Stop singing praises on MVP and Taeja already. We've heard them many times before, and they're still ringing in our ears. Sure, our inner fanboyism is a good source of inspiration, but the hallmark of a great writer is to be able to write about anything objectively.

Sorry about the rant. The only reason I'm ranting is that I do admire the work done by TL writers including stuchiu, and hold them to high standards. Please don't stop writing. But please try writing more on new interesting storylines!


Hmm I didn't feel that way, but maybe you are right, some people can get that implied message. But don't be so hard on stuchiu, iirc the last piece he wrote was about Zest so it's not all about the legends of the past.

Anyways stu I demand a Stats article!!!! cmon he deserves it

Well he got some shit for the Zest article, too, because he prematurely declared him the "last titan".

But yeah, a Stats article would be nice. Maybe make it a double feature with Classic. "How We Got Good And Nobody Cared"


'Last titan' carries the same "SC2 is dead" tone that I mentioned. But it was a great and refreshing article, content-wise!

I feel bad for Classic - not enough love. And what about Rain? Surely he deserves a piece!

But since we're in doomsday mood, just write one on Dark being the "Last Larva Of The Swarm" already!
gg no re thx
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
July 19 2016 15:33 GMT
#71
On July 20 2016 00:13 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2016 23:42 RKC wrote:
Also, doesn't the term 'dynasty' suggest some kind of lineage and succession? Weak title. Call MVP an 'Emperor' if you want (though the Boxer fanboys may revolt), but he sure didn't leave any dynasty.

Mvp changed the way terran was played and understood. Taeja was extremely creative and his understanding of the game and phenomenal execution led to his success, but it just remained Taeja's play. It didn't really push the meta forward or influence terran play on the whole. Mvp did.


That's 'legacy', quite different from 'dynasty'. 'Dynasty' means coaching and training up heirs to your throne. Or a master-apprentice connection. Like iloveoov and Fantasy being part of the SKT-Boxer dynasty in BW.

Anyway, enough about linguistics.
gg no re thx
insitelol
Profile Joined August 2012
845 Posts
July 19 2016 15:59 GMT
#72
Don't wanna sound rude or something, but "reigning" the unfigured game, which starcraft2 was back then, and players, whos skill level was lower than a random master player nowadays, is not something worth mentioning every single month in a separate article.
Less is more.
buchh
Profile Joined June 2016
38 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 16:18:37
July 19 2016 16:11 GMT
#73
I thought this was going to be about MarineLorD.


yeah me too... because the final game where he lost was the only one he didn't do crazy planning for that tourny... :D

EDIT: very MVPesque
buchh
Profile Joined June 2016
38 Posts
July 19 2016 16:15 GMT
#74
and since we're doing these.. can we please do another on TaeJa for how crazy he played in his GSL group... Previous GSL he lost 0-3 to Zest... LOL well so did Maru (who may arguably be the best Terran in the world)...

another cool fact.. his previous team, and TaeJa in his pre interview, BOTH predicted he'd go out in the ro32...
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
July 19 2016 16:49 GMT
#75
The next stuchiu 1000 article is just going to be "Mvp" written 1000 times
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
megatroneo
Profile Joined May 2016
41 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 17:07:06
July 19 2016 17:06 GMT
#76
On July 20 2016 01:49 Shellshock wrote:
The next stuchiu 1000 article is just going to be "Mvp" written 1000 times


tl;dr: TaeMVPJa
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55468 Posts
July 19 2016 17:46 GMT
#77
On July 20 2016 01:49 Shellshock wrote:
The next stuchiu 1000 article is just going to be "Mvp" written 1000 times

Word 666 will be Sniper and he'll throw in a Has somewhere, too.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
WhosQuany
Profile Joined June 2013
Germany257 Posts
July 19 2016 18:36 GMT
#78
Great read ty
Goin back to Cali
HugoBallzak
Profile Joined November 2015
700 Posts
July 19 2016 18:59 GMT
#79
lol lots of mvp haterz. I feel like this game lost half its viewership when this guy hung it up.
Creager
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1889 Posts
July 19 2016 20:38 GMT
#80
On July 20 2016 03:59 HugoBallzak wrote:
lol lots of mvp haterz. I feel like this game lost half its viewership when this guy hung it up.


I don't think people hate on Mvp, they just are dissappointed that there's nothing comparable to the glory days of SC2
... einmal mit Profis spielen!
bypLy
Profile Joined June 2013
757 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 20:45:30
July 19 2016 20:45 GMT
#81
nice read but dont understand why stuchio is recycling his old MVP fanboy essays, is there nothing new to write about?
tritonice
Profile Joined November 2010
United States119 Posts
July 19 2016 20:45 GMT
#82
I'm a huge Taeja fan, and I love the way he plays. But, I think the lack of a GSL title is a huge hole in his resume.
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-19 21:12:36
July 19 2016 21:11 GMT
#83
On July 20 2016 00:33 RKC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2016 00:13 TheWinks wrote:
On July 19 2016 23:42 RKC wrote:
Also, doesn't the term 'dynasty' suggest some kind of lineage and succession? Weak title. Call MVP an 'Emperor' if you want (though the Boxer fanboys may revolt), but he sure didn't leave any dynasty.

Mvp changed the way terran was played and understood. Taeja was extremely creative and his understanding of the game and phenomenal execution led to his success, but it just remained Taeja's play. It didn't really push the meta forward or influence terran play on the whole. Mvp did.


That's 'legacy', quite different from 'dynasty'. 'Dynasty' means coaching and training up heirs to your throne. Or a master-apprentice connection. Like iloveoov and Fantasy being part of the SKT-Boxer dynasty in BW.

Anyway, enough about linguistics.

In a sense modern terran play is a descendant of Mvp's play and the use of the word dynasty better reflects this than legacy. You know exactly what he means by the use of the word and that's important thing. Until someone comes along and revolutionizes terran or blizzard changes terran enough to make it no longer relevant, we're still playing Mvp's terran.
On July 20 2016 01:49 Shellshock wrote:
The next stuchiu 1000 article is just going to be "Mvp" written 1000 times

I'll read it.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
July 19 2016 21:30 GMT
#84
On July 20 2016 05:45 tritonice wrote:
I'm a huge Taeja fan, and I love the way he plays. But, I think the lack of a GSL title is a huge hole in his resume.


Yeah I never consider Taeja the best Terran ever. I consider him a top Terran player for sure, but the best? No, him never winning GSL (don't think he ever made it to the finals either) really hurts him. When he played every event in NA and was dominating, well made sense as he wasn't playing all the best Korean players (I do know he beat them in some of the tournaments, but a majority would be foreigners).

When I think of something else, something will go here
nighcol
Profile Joined January 2012
298 Posts
July 20 2016 05:19 GMT
#85
On July 20 2016 06:30 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2016 05:45 tritonice wrote:
I'm a huge Taeja fan, and I love the way he plays. But, I think the lack of a GSL title is a huge hole in his resume.


Yeah I never consider Taeja the best Terran ever. I consider him a top Terran player for sure, but the best? No, him never winning GSL (don't think he ever made it to the finals either) really hurts him. When he played every event in NA and was dominating, well made sense as he wasn't playing all the best Korean players (I do know he beat them in some of the tournaments, but a majority would be foreigners).



Some of those events were seriously stacked. I think Taeja was just a master of the weekend tournament, his latest interview shows that mindset when he says he plays by instinct instead of planning or something like that. I think his game sense/talent is probably one of the very best and with better pre-game planning he could've well taken a GSL.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15883 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-20 06:13:47
July 20 2016 05:59 GMT
#86
TaeJa may have dominated only foreign tournaments but the aura of invincibility he had was incredible it felt like he couldn't lose at times even when facing Kespa pros.

How succesful he was and where you rank him in terms of achievements depends on personal criteria but I think when he played at his peak he was the strongest player of all time together with Life at his prime.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Seedfan
Profile Joined July 2016
58 Posts
July 20 2016 07:27 GMT
#87
It really is such a shame that MVP got injured (not only because being injured sucks in general) - would have been interesting to see if a MVP at its best would be able to hold his own against today's competition.
LSN
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany696 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-20 13:47:46
July 20 2016 13:29 GMT
#88
Stuchio articles are always of the same scheme: First determine the desired result and then find and make up stuff for it.

Stuchio is 1. a grand TL bias, 2. a grand Terran bias and consequently 3. a grand MVP + Taeja bias. It is getting boring and old. Not worth to read it.
Chidoriiiii
Profile Joined January 2011
United States21 Posts
July 20 2016 13:56 GMT
#89
On July 20 2016 03:59 HugoBallzak wrote:
lol lots of mvp haterz. I feel like this game lost half its viewership when this guy hung it up.


I agree. I feel like sc2 took a big hit in popularity when Mvp had to retire. Games were exciting and the competitive spirit was amazing. One of few memorable experiences that are similar lately were MC's return and his Proleague debut as well as Taeja's 2016 GSL s2 ro32 games.

Right now, the most similar excitement for watching starcraft on the level of Mvp comes from watching great Terrans in BW games for the ASL. We kind of need another Mvp
Only the dead have seen the end of war
OveRtheStarS
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada69 Posts
July 20 2016 18:25 GMT
#90
You know there isn't much going on when MVP is still getting "new" write-ups.
If everyone loves you, you're not doing it right.
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
July 20 2016 19:47 GMT
#91
For fairness, I should point out that this is one of 15 articles stu wrote back in November after BlizzCon weekend. I've been a bit lax in putting things out. Releasing a piece on Mvp has nothing to do with the number of stories generated by Legacy so far
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3340 Posts
July 20 2016 21:36 GMT
#92
On July 19 2016 23:42 RKC wrote:
Also, doesn't the term 'dynasty' suggest some kind of lineage and succession? Weak title. Call MVP an 'Emperor' if you want (though the Boxer fanboys may revolt), but he sure didn't leave any dynasty.

The title would've made more sense if it was 'Slayers Dynasty'. Trace the history from MMA to Dark. See? New storyline!

I think the point is that he's the King of Wings, thereby the word dynasty.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Ansibled
Profile Joined November 2014
United Kingdom9872 Posts
July 20 2016 21:53 GMT
#93
The Twitter link for Stuchiu is broken by the way. TLstuchiu is a better tag then StuchiuWriter though to be fair.
'StarCraft is just a fairy tale told to scare children actually.'
TL+ Member
SuperFanBoy
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand1068 Posts
July 21 2016 07:51 GMT
#94
MVP is the GOAT of eSports.

MVP is greater than Flash, Jaedong, Faker etc.

I hated Terran, but have to respect him for being on his class of his own when the game was super competitive with players like Nestea and MC etc.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19214 Posts
July 21 2016 19:08 GMT
#95
On July 21 2016 16:51 SuperFanBoy wrote:
MVP is the GOAT of eSports.

MVP is greater than Flash, Jaedong, Faker etc.

I hated Terran, but have to respect him for being on his class of his own when the game was super competitive with players like Nestea and MC etc.

You left Bisu off this for a reason. Good man.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-22 19:44:21
July 22 2016 19:42 GMT
#96
On July 21 2016 16:51 SuperFanBoy wrote:
MVP is the GOAT of eSports.

MVP is greater than Flash, Jaedong, Faker etc.

I hated Terran, but have to respect him for being on his class of his own when the game was super competitive with players like Nestea and MC etc.

Agreed, he retired after all Kespa players transformed to SC2 only because he want to give them a chance, he would easily beat any top player like sOs, Zest, Classic, herO, Maru, Innovation, Life, soO in the HotS.
BTW, how many GSL seasons they had during WoL era?
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Riner1212
Profile Joined November 2012
United States337 Posts
July 22 2016 22:20 GMT
#97
is it safe to assume mvp has retired?
Sjow "pretty ez life as protoss"
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-22 23:36:14
July 22 2016 23:34 GMT
#98
On July 23 2016 04:42 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2016 16:51 SuperFanBoy wrote:
MVP is the GOAT of eSports.

MVP is greater than Flash, Jaedong, Faker etc.

I hated Terran, but have to respect him for being on his class of his own when the game was super competitive with players like Nestea and MC etc.

Agreed, he retired after all Kespa players transformed to SC2 only because he want to give them a chance, he would easily beat any top player like sOs, Zest, Classic, herO, Maru, Innovation, Life, soO in the HotS.
BTW, how many GSL seasons they had during WoL era?

18 gsl seasons (if we count the two super tournaments, mvp and polt won those)
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
July 22 2016 23:39 GMT
#99
On July 23 2016 04:42 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2016 16:51 SuperFanBoy wrote:
MVP is the GOAT of eSports.

MVP is greater than Flash, Jaedong, Faker etc.

I hated Terran, but have to respect him for being on his class of his own when the game was super competitive with players like Nestea and MC etc.

Agreed, he retired after all Kespa players transformed to SC2 only because he want to give them a chance, he would easily beat any top player like sOs, Zest, Classic, herO, Maru, Innovation, Life, soO in the HotS.
BTW, how many GSL seasons they had during WoL era?

Mvp retired because his condition was too creepling to play further.

But he also made sure to smack Bogus around that last time.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 23 2016 00:02 GMT
#100
Ok i will try it again, how can we say that Mvp dominated the whole year of 2011 when after his win of gsl january his following results were these:

17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july

Yes he won that world championship tournament in april, but that's hardly dominating the scene overall when he only had 1 good result in 5 tournaments in the span of these 6 months.

In the same time frame Nestea did arguably better than Mvp
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-23 01:54:42
July 23 2016 01:49 GMT
#101
On July 23 2016 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ok i will try it again, how can we say that Mvp dominated the whole year of 2011 when after his win of gsl january his following results were these:

17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july

Yes he won that world championship tournament in april, but that's hardly dominating the scene overall when he only had 1 good result in 5 tournaments in the span of these 6 months.

In the same time frame Nestea did arguably better than Mvp


Wait. I'm hearing stories about the mighty Mvp since I joined this forum. But that's all he did in his dominant period?? Really? O.o

I had suspected that a part of Mvp's greatness was in fact due to the pink tinted glasses of nostalgic fans. But this is more than just a bit of pinkness!

Edit: Wait again. I'm looking at liquipedia and he also won a Code S in August. And was 2nd in October and a semifinalist in November.

Edit 2: hahaha the amount of Terran in those brackets :D
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-23 01:54:23
July 23 2016 01:53 GMT
#102
On July 23 2016 08:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2016 04:42 Alarak89 wrote:
On July 21 2016 16:51 SuperFanBoy wrote:
MVP is the GOAT of eSports.

MVP is greater than Flash, Jaedong, Faker etc.

I hated Terran, but have to respect him for being on his class of his own when the game was super competitive with players like Nestea and MC etc.

Agreed, he retired after all Kespa players transformed to SC2 only because he want to give them a chance, he would easily beat any top player like sOs, Zest, Classic, herO, Maru, Innovation, Life, soO in the HotS.
BTW, how many GSL seasons they had during WoL era?

18 gsl seasons (if we count the two super tournaments, mvp and polt won those)

OK, so that number is still much bigger than GSL seasons in HotS, right? Can I conclude the situation is unfair to those guys I mentioned above?
Because of these large amount of GSL seasons, "champions" like Seed, Roro, Sniper, jjakji arose, also players like Mvp, Nestea, DRG, MC are becoming "legends", but where are they and how they performed after Kespa transformed into SC2 completely? Seems like I have to admit that the competition level must be very high back then.
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-23 02:35:36
July 23 2016 02:27 GMT
#103
On July 23 2016 10:49 Silvana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2016 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ok i will try it again, how can we say that Mvp dominated the whole year of 2011 when after his win of gsl january his following results were these:

17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july

Yes he won that world championship tournament in april, but that's hardly dominating the scene overall when he only had 1 good result in 5 tournaments in the span of these 6 months.

In the same time frame Nestea did arguably better than Mvp


Wait. I'm hearing stories about the mighty Mvp since I joined this forum. But that's all he did in his dominant period?? Really? O.o

I had suspected that a part of Mvp's greatness was in fact due to the pink tinted glasses of nostalgic fans. But this is more than just a bit of pinkness!

Edit: Wait again. I'm looking at liquipedia and he also won a Code S in August. And was 2nd in October and a semifinalist in November.

Edit 2: hahaha the amount of Terran in those brackets :D


Nah i am not saying he didn't win stuff after, etc
I am saying that in the time period from his january win to his august win his results weren't really that great. I bet people wouldn't include such a time period for other players when talking about domination. That's my point.


edit: which means that the "2 years of dominance" is extreme hyperbole because when we also remove february 2011 - august 2011 we essentially come to around 6 months of dominance rather than a year (2011) or even two years as stuchiu claims.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
July 23 2016 02:35 GMT
#104
On July 23 2016 11:27 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2016 10:49 Silvana wrote:
On July 23 2016 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ok i will try it again, how can we say that Mvp dominated the whole year of 2011 when after his win of gsl january his following results were these:

17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july

Yes he won that world championship tournament in april, but that's hardly dominating the scene overall when he only had 1 good result in 5 tournaments in the span of these 6 months.

In the same time frame Nestea did arguably better than Mvp


Wait. I'm hearing stories about the mighty Mvp since I joined this forum. But that's all he did in his dominant period?? Really? O.o

I had suspected that a part of Mvp's greatness was in fact due to the pink tinted glasses of nostalgic fans. But this is more than just a bit of pinkness!

Edit: Wait again. I'm looking at liquipedia and he also won a Code S in August. And was 2nd in October and a semifinalist in November.

Edit 2: hahaha the amount of Terran in those brackets :D


Nah i am not saying he didn't win stuff after, etc
I am saying that in the time period from his january win to his august win his results weren't really that great. I bet people wouldn't include such a time period for other players when talking about domination. That's my point.


Oh I get it now. Yeah looking at the liquipedia page he doesn't seem to have done anything relevant. But that's where the intangibles enter the equation like changing the meta, innovating builds, fight like Rambo with all his injuries, etc.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 23 2016 02:40 GMT
#105
I don't see how this affects the situation too much though. If you cannot win with your "innovations" then what's the point?
Maybe my "only results matter" pov is flawed somewhat, but at the end of the day i think it's closer to 'the truth' (if there is such a thing) then adding intangible achievements to the list to get to the point you want to end

So yeah i still think Mvp is overhyped in the context of sc2. Even though he clearly was a beast at one point.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-23 04:27:16
July 23 2016 04:25 GMT
#106
On July 23 2016 10:49 Silvana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2016 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ok i will try it again, how can we say that Mvp dominated the whole year of 2011 when after his win of gsl january his following results were these:

17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july

Yes he won that world championship tournament in april, but that's hardly dominating the scene overall when he only had 1 good result in 5 tournaments in the span of these 6 months.

In the same time frame Nestea did arguably better than Mvp


Wait. I'm hearing stories about the mighty Mvp since I joined this forum. But that's all he did in his dominant period?? Really? O.o

I had suspected that a part of Mvp's greatness was in fact due to the pink tinted glasses of nostalgic fans. But this is more than just a bit of pinkness!

Edit: Wait again. I'm looking at liquipedia and he also won a Code S in August. And was 2nd in October and a semifinalist in November.

Edit 2: hahaha the amount of Terran in those brackets :D


Oh make no mistake, Mvp was still a monster that year. Thing is, in 2011 we were just ridiculously spoiled with the amount of starcraft going on. We had 8 GSLs in 2011 alone, not to mention several MLGs, WCG, Blizzcon, GSTL, DH, IPL, Blizzard Cup, the GSL WC, and miscellaneous major tournaments sprinkled all over the place.

So you can look at it as having many more opportunities for success, but it's also more room to slip up and be criticized as Red_Viper is pointing out. The amount of time for his shortcomings listed here:


17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july


is about equivalent to being off his game for a WCS Season (2013-2015, 3 per year system). Even then though, he won his WC and only lost to Bomber in his code A exile (top 3 Terran during that period).So it wasn't the biggest blemish.

No he didn't dominate like a bonjwa with wave after wave of godlike results for the entirety of 2011, but he was by far the most dominant player of 2011 overall and had probably the greatest peak aside from Life's second. To be precise, Mvp's god form was activated as soon as he won MLG Anaheim. That's when he really went on an almost unbeatable streak. Would've very likely won 3 consecutive GSLs if it weren't for MMA and Leenock.

His Stats from MLG Anaheim onward
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
necrosexy
Profile Joined March 2011
451 Posts
July 23 2016 05:47 GMT
#107
the great steward of sc2
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 23 2016 16:01 GMT
#108
On July 23 2016 13:25 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2016 10:49 Silvana wrote:
On July 23 2016 09:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ok i will try it again, how can we say that Mvp dominated the whole year of 2011 when after his win of gsl january his following results were these:

17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july

Yes he won that world championship tournament in april, but that's hardly dominating the scene overall when he only had 1 good result in 5 tournaments in the span of these 6 months.

In the same time frame Nestea did arguably better than Mvp


Wait. I'm hearing stories about the mighty Mvp since I joined this forum. But that's all he did in his dominant period?? Really? O.o

I had suspected that a part of Mvp's greatness was in fact due to the pink tinted glasses of nostalgic fans. But this is more than just a bit of pinkness!

Edit: Wait again. I'm looking at liquipedia and he also won a Code S in August. And was 2nd in October and a semifinalist in November.

Edit 2: hahaha the amount of Terran in those brackets :D


Oh make no mistake, Mvp was still a monster that year. Thing is, in 2011 we were just ridiculously spoiled with the amount of starcraft going on. We had 8 GSLs in 2011 alone, not to mention several MLGs, WCG, Blizzcon, GSTL, DH, IPL, Blizzard Cup, the GSL WC, and miscellaneous major tournaments sprinkled all over the place.

So you can look at it as having many more opportunities for success, but it's also more room to slip up and be criticized as Red_Viper is pointing out. The amount of time for his shortcomings listed here:


Show nested quote +
17-24 gsl march
code a 2nd gsl may
17-32 gsl super tournament
17-24 gsl july


is about equivalent to being off his game for a WCS Season (2013-2015, 3 per year system). Even then though, he won his WC and only lost to Bomber in his code A exile (top 3 Terran during that period).So it wasn't the biggest blemish.

No he didn't dominate like a bonjwa with wave after wave of godlike results for the entirety of 2011, but he was by far the most dominant player of 2011 overall and had probably the greatest peak aside from Life's second. To be precise, Mvp's god form was activated as soon as he won MLG Anaheim. That's when he really went on an almost unbeatable streak. Would've very likely won 3 consecutive GSLs if it weren't for MMA and Leenock.

His Stats from MLG Anaheim onward



But wouldn't you agree that from February till August his results were rather weak for "dominating" the scene?
Shouldn't we therefore exclude this time period from his "reign" because it doesn't really make sense to include it?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Carminedust
Profile Joined October 2014
487 Posts
July 29 2016 20:57 GMT
#109
Nestea article when ?
Maybe was Zoun only Fan before he retired idk
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
August 02 2016 09:59 GMT
#110
Great article, I wish we could see a MVP return in LOTV, would be interesting to see how he'd go if he could recapture his best form in the new meta
ZandeSC2
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden23 Posts
September 08 2016 23:24 GMT
#111
Great read, ty!
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