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On May 30 2016 16:53 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 16:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I like what they are seeing.
The next step in the balance department should be to look at the Tempest. It's to easy to mass and they become untouchable in larger numbers.
The Siege Tank should perform better against Protoss in general, so they should have a look at that. They had a look at it for ages and a large fraction of the population was voting to keep siege tank drop in its current form instead of increasing damage (because of TvZ?)
I remember most of the votes were positive for nerfing tankvacs and the reason cited for not going ahead with the change was "some Korean pros"
I'm not talking about that though, but of Tanks performing better against Protoss specifically. So maybe some extra dmg to shields could be a solution.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Tanks that can be lifted, dropped and instantly attack without unsieging have to have their damage tuned a lot lower than tanks that don't have that ability in order to have similar balance
I don't want to see the medivac instant-fire version of tank buffed to be better than liberator anti-ground in TvP as both a spectator and a player.. just don't like the gameplay.
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On May 30 2016 18:23 Cyro wrote:
Tanks that can be lifted, dropped and instantly attack without unsieging have to have their damage tuned a lot lower than tanks that don't have that ability in order to have similar balance
I don't want to see the medivac instant-fire version of tank buffed to be better than liberator anti-ground in TvP as both a spectator and a player.. just don't like the gameplay.
Even with lift of they are far from great TvP. There is no question they underperform in the MU and always have been. They need to be buffed if we are to see anything else then bio-liberator till the end of time.
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Blizz were about to remove the tankivac and buff tank damage but korean feedback said they would suck against toss anyway and the ongoing league would have suffered a big balance shake. So they didnt.
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Why is separate mmr important if each player does not have more than 1 rank. Won't this allow players to rise up in ranking by playing worse players than the level at which they are at?
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In my opinion this is the worst map pool I've had to play on in starcraft... there's 1, maybe 2 maps where you can take a comfortable third. they even took Prion out to put in another one where you're just supposed to 2base all in... I just want to play macro games 
I guess it has to do with those "interesting"maps that are all the hype, but if every map is some variation of Ulrena it loses its uniqueness, which was what made it interesting in the first place... As it is I need like 5 vetoes. ._.
Really hope they do something about this next seasons and introduce some macro maps... maybe bring Orbital Station back :x
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On May 30 2016 17:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 16:53 Cyro wrote:On May 30 2016 16:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I like what they are seeing.
The next step in the balance department should be to look at the Tempest. It's to easy to mass and they become untouchable in larger numbers.
The Siege Tank should perform better against Protoss in general, so they should have a look at that. They had a look at it for ages and a large fraction of the population was voting to keep siege tank drop in its current form instead of increasing damage (because of TvZ?) I remember most of the votes were positive for nerfing tankvacs and the reason cited for not going ahead with the change was "some Korean pros"
Opinion on reddit and the b.net forums turned on a dime after that community update as people were quickly convinced that nerfing the tankivac in exchange for a damage boost would be a net nerf to terran and lead to even more restricted and less diverse gameplay.
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I can't post on the US website and this thread doesn't exist on EU ( great community outreach there blizzard ) so I'm posting this here and hoping someone from the US might post it there if you deem it worthy:
On May 28 2016 02:24 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Community request to add army supply/worker supply to the UI
We were seeing a lot of request to add these to the default, player UI. We just wanted to confirm the desire for this add. Let’s get discussions going on this so that we can make a call on if we should add this to the game or not.
If we are already looking into doing UI and Quality of life improvements lets talk about one the most glaring missing features in the UI for zerg: Spawn larva progress display with multiple hatch selected.
Spawn larva is the central mechanic for Zerg macro, and a multi hatch select group is gonna be the Zerg players main tool for macro in every single game. And yet, when multiple hatches are selected, there is no display of spawn larva progress on the different hatches. Contrast this with Protoss gateways that show a circling timer for their cool down. Adding this same display to hatches would help new to medium level players with their injects, give even higher level players more information and would simply make Zerg macro more fun as you will have a clear visual indicator of progress and success of implementing a macro mechanic.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
^That's a pretty good idea, as an experienced zerg player i have a great sense for when injects will finish but i can't count the amount of times that i've come back to a hatchery and realized that i missed a cycle and my queen has 47-48 energy. There's not really an indication for that right now, but being able to see it with your camera anywhere on the map by hitting your hatch hotkey would be nice.
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Opinion on reddit and the b.net forums turned on a dime after that community update as people were quickly convinced that nerfing the tankivac in exchange for a damage boost would be a net nerf to terran and lead to even more restricted and less diverse gameplay.
A lot of that was people worrying about ravagers being too strong against terran even with buffed tank damage.
I think the best thing to do design-wise would have been to switch the tank to nomedivac (or a long delay to fire after dropping, to emphasize repositioning) with higher damage and nerf ravager ability if neccesary.
They could also design the siege tank around immobile siege while the liberator is designed around more mobile but weaker sieging, so that they both have a place in the game. Liberator also has its harass and anti-air potential so it should be worse at the siege tank's role as compensation for the increased versatility.
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On May 31 2016 18:00 Cyro wrote:
^That's a pretty good idea, as an experienced zerg player i have a great sense for when injects will finish but i can't count the amount of times that i've come back to a hatchery and realized that i missed a cycle and my queen has 47-48 energy. There's not really an indication for that right now, but being able to see it with your camera anywhere on the map by hitting your hatch hotkey would be nice.
Thanks, If you got a US account I would appreciate you dropping it in the US thread
( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20744834513 )
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On May 31 2016 18:00 Cyro wrote:^That's a pretty good idea, as an experienced zerg player i have a great sense for when injects will finish but i can't count the amount of times that i've come back to a hatchery and realized that i missed a cycle and my queen has 47-48 energy. There's not really an indication for that right now, but being able to see it with your camera anywhere on the map by hitting your hatch hotkey would be nice. ------------------- Show nested quote +Opinion on reddit and the b.net forums turned on a dime after that community update as people were quickly convinced that nerfing the tankivac in exchange for a damage boost would be a net nerf to terran and lead to even more restricted and less diverse gameplay. A lot of that was people worrying about ravagers being too strong against terran even with buffed tank damage. I think the best thing to do design-wise would have been to switch the tank to nomedivac (or a long delay to fire after dropping, to emphasize repositioning) with higher damage and nerf ravager ability if neccesary. They could also design the siege tank around immobile siege while the liberator is designed around more mobile but weaker sieging, so that they both have a place in the game. Liberator also has its harass and anti-air potential so it should be worse at the siege tank's role as compensation for the increased versatility.
Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff.
Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff.
I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about
Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it.
WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably)
Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall
Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly
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On May 31 2016 19:58 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff. I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about Show nested quote +Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it. WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably) Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly
I tested 7 T vs 6 I (similar supply), because that's the number of tanks i usually push out with. In my tests the Tanks actually won, no pick up, all bunched in a ball. Obviously this alone does not mean mech is viable, in a more aggressive play anyway, but it's interesting. In HOTS Immortals would have won by a landslide.
EDIT. It's 7 Tanks vs 5 Immortals (21 supply vs 20)
I wish better players then me would start testing Tank-Hellbat mech and not focus so much on SkyTerran with Liberators.
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On May 31 2016 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2016 19:58 Cyro wrote:Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff. I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it. WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably) Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly I tested 7 T vs 6 I (similar supply), because that's the number of tanks i usually push out with. In my tests the Tanks actually won, no pick up, all bunched in a ball. Obviously this alone does not mean mech is viable, in a more aggressive play anyway, but it's interesting. In HOTS Immortals would have won by a landslide. EDIT. It's 7 Tanks vs 5 Immortals (21 supply vs 20) I wish better players then me would start testing Tank-Hellbat mech and not focus so much on SkyTerran with Liberators.
if I try tank + hellbat mech my opponent just instantly throws down 3 stargates and a fleetbeacon and starts spamming tempests because they know it's a freewin.
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On May 31 2016 20:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2016 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 31 2016 19:58 Cyro wrote:Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff. I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it. WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably) Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly I tested 7 T vs 6 I (similar supply), because that's the number of tanks i usually push out with. In my tests the Tanks actually won, no pick up, all bunched in a ball. Obviously this alone does not mean mech is viable, in a more aggressive play anyway, but it's interesting. In HOTS Immortals would have won by a landslide. EDIT. It's 7 Tanks vs 5 Immortals (21 supply vs 20) I wish better players then me would start testing Tank-Hellbat mech and not focus so much on SkyTerran with Liberators. if I try tank + hellbat mech my opponent just instantly throws down 3 stargates and a fleetbeacon and starts spamming tempests because they know it's a freewin.
And when you see that why don't you take what army you have of Tanks and Hellbats and go kill his expansions? I agree that Tempests are BS, but Carriers were a problem in BW to, and the solution was to just go fucking kill him if he skipped on ground and rushed to air.
EDIT: i'm just throwing ideas, not telling people what works. But the problem for me in WoL and HotS was that a small Protoss army of Immortal/Archon/Whatever could hold it's own against superior supply of Tanks and Hellbats. This is what allowed Protoss to transition to air very safely. IF that can no longer be the case (Immortals no longer hard counter Tanks for supply) then mech should be able to punish such transitions. We'll see, i'm not sure we're there yet, but it seems to be looking a lot better after the Immortal nerf. Time to learn to scout for those stargates and move out in time to crush him.
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On May 31 2016 20:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2016 20:25 Charoisaur wrote:On May 31 2016 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 31 2016 19:58 Cyro wrote:Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff. I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it. WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably) Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly I tested 7 T vs 6 I (similar supply), because that's the number of tanks i usually push out with. In my tests the Tanks actually won, no pick up, all bunched in a ball. Obviously this alone does not mean mech is viable, in a more aggressive play anyway, but it's interesting. In HOTS Immortals would have won by a landslide. EDIT. It's 7 Tanks vs 5 Immortals (21 supply vs 20) I wish better players then me would start testing Tank-Hellbat mech and not focus so much on SkyTerran with Liberators. if I try tank + hellbat mech my opponent just instantly throws down 3 stargates and a fleetbeacon and starts spamming tempests because they know it's a freewin. And when you see that why don't you take what army you have of Tanks and Hellbats and go kill his expansions? I agree that Tempests are BS, but Carriers were a problem in BW to, and the solution was to just go fucking kill him if he skipped on ground and rushed to air. EDIT: i'm just throwing ideas, not telling people what works. But the problem for me in WoL and HotS was that a small Protoss army of Immortal/Archon/Whatever could hold it's own against superior supply of Tanks and Hellbats. This is what allowed Protoss to transition to air very safely. IF that can no longer be the case (Immortals no longer hard counter Tanks for supply) then mech should be able to punish such transitions. We'll see, i'm not sure we're there yet, but it seems to be looking a lot better after the Immortal nerf. Time to learn to scout for those stargates and move out in time to crush him.
maybe it could work but the timing push needs to be extremely well timed because even a small number of air units demolish your army. And unless you scan every few seconds it's not as easy to exactly know when the opponent is transitioning to air..
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On May 31 2016 21:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2016 20:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 31 2016 20:25 Charoisaur wrote:On May 31 2016 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 31 2016 19:58 Cyro wrote:Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff. I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it. WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably) Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly I tested 7 T vs 6 I (similar supply), because that's the number of tanks i usually push out with. In my tests the Tanks actually won, no pick up, all bunched in a ball. Obviously this alone does not mean mech is viable, in a more aggressive play anyway, but it's interesting. In HOTS Immortals would have won by a landslide. EDIT. It's 7 Tanks vs 5 Immortals (21 supply vs 20) I wish better players then me would start testing Tank-Hellbat mech and not focus so much on SkyTerran with Liberators. if I try tank + hellbat mech my opponent just instantly throws down 3 stargates and a fleetbeacon and starts spamming tempests because they know it's a freewin. And when you see that why don't you take what army you have of Tanks and Hellbats and go kill his expansions? I agree that Tempests are BS, but Carriers were a problem in BW to, and the solution was to just go fucking kill him if he skipped on ground and rushed to air. EDIT: i'm just throwing ideas, not telling people what works. But the problem for me in WoL and HotS was that a small Protoss army of Immortal/Archon/Whatever could hold it's own against superior supply of Tanks and Hellbats. This is what allowed Protoss to transition to air very safely. IF that can no longer be the case (Immortals no longer hard counter Tanks for supply) then mech should be able to punish such transitions. We'll see, i'm not sure we're there yet, but it seems to be looking a lot better after the Immortal nerf. Time to learn to scout for those stargates and move out in time to crush him. maybe it could work but the timing push needs to be extremely well timed because even a small number of air units demolish your army. And unless you scan every few seconds it's not as easy to exactly know when the opponent is transitioning to air..
Should just remove the MULE so terrans don't feel bad when scanning the enemy base 
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On May 31 2016 08:46 dNa wrote:In my opinion this is the worst map pool I've had to play on in starcraft... there's 1, maybe 2 maps where you can take a comfortable third. they even took Prion out to put in another one where you're just supposed to 2base all in... I just want to play macro games I guess it has to do with those "interesting"maps that are all the hype, but if every map is some variation of Ulrena it loses its uniqueness, which was what made it interesting in the first place... As it is I need like 5 vetoes. ._. Really hope they do something about this next seasons and introduce some macro maps... maybe bring Orbital Station back :x
In what league are you and what are your difficulties exactly? cause there are a lot of maps where macro is totally possible these days, and the "old-new" maps that were added (frost and KSS) are not particularily hard for macro games, at least not harder than Prion that you seem to miss...
Maybe it's your builds that need adaptation?
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On May 31 2016 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2016 19:58 Cyro wrote:Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff. I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it. WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably) Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly I tested 7 T vs 6 I (similar supply), because that's the number of tanks i usually push out with. In my tests the Tanks actually won, no pick up, all bunched in a ball. Obviously this alone does not mean mech is viable, in a more aggressive play anyway, but it's interesting. In HOTS Immortals would have won by a landslide. EDIT. It's 7 Tanks vs 5 Immortals (21 supply vs 20) I wish better players then me would start testing Tank-Hellbat mech and not focus so much on SkyTerran with Liberators.
That's interesting, in HotS tank hellbat and banshee was very efficient against Protoss going immortal heavy (which they often did when they were seeing mech).
My question is more why you seem to go tank hellbats only, don't you think banshee would be a nice addition - or did I misunderstand?
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On May 31 2016 21:30 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2016 20:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 31 2016 19:58 Cyro wrote:Yeah, something like that. I honestly think they went overboard with testing the complete removal of tankvac and should have instead tested something like they get un-sieged when dropped, or higher delay, etc coupled with a dmg buff. I think that was even the direction that stuff was going before it stopped getting talked about Anyway, i noticed equal supply of Tanks now beat Immortals in direct fights after the Immo nerf. Not sure what to think of it. WOL+HOTS immortal was one of the hardcounter units, very good against some units and very bad against others. Legacy made it better against the units that countered it before (didn't used to get damage reduced by shield but now do) and worse against many of the units that it countered (used to take more damage from them more reliably) Halving the shield leaves the Legacy immortal still better than it used to be vs some units like lings, hydras but generally nerfed overall Immortal V Tank should favor immortals with low numbers on both sides, right? I don't think losing in a 33 vs 25 fight is that bad vs sieged tanks w/ splash. In small numbers the splash and range advantage of the tanks matter a lot less, in large you'll have half of your immortals not able to attack for a while and you also won't be able to micromanage the shield so the tank shots will trigger most of them very quickly I tested 7 T vs 6 I (similar supply), because that's the number of tanks i usually push out with. In my tests the Tanks actually won, no pick up, all bunched in a ball. Obviously this alone does not mean mech is viable, in a more aggressive play anyway, but it's interesting. In HOTS Immortals would have won by a landslide. EDIT. It's 7 Tanks vs 5 Immortals (21 supply vs 20) I wish better players then me would start testing Tank-Hellbat mech and not focus so much on SkyTerran with Liberators. That's interesting, in HotS tank hellbat and banshee was very efficient against Protoss going immortal heavy (which they often did when they were seeing mech). My question is more why you seem to go tank hellbats only, don't you think banshee would be a nice addition - or did I misunderstand?
I guess i'm old fashioned :p .
I view the army not just in terms of fire power but also HP. Banshees, like all air units, will not add to the HP of the army against say Zealots/ Immortals/ Adepts/Colossus, and what i found that happens is that my ground would get crushed and the air units survive. I'm not sure that with a few surviving Banshees you can then continue to push, if there are Cannons, the odd Storm and whatnot can nullify my advantage after wining the fight. If you go more Skyterran, like Avilo, then sure, you have a lot of air and that's different.
For more traditional mech, i want to have as many Tanks as possible because after wining a fight i can continue to push and kill any static def, and Hellions reinforce fast thanks to their speed. It's also good because of their range i can form a line of defense and siege one or even 2 expansions at the same time.
I also like to have as few types of units as possible, and for the units to be as reliable as possible. I find it hard enough to take good positions, protect the Tanks from Zealots/ Adepts, keep the Immortals at bay, that i can't be bothered to baby sit banshees against storm, FG, NP, etc. I would try to minimize the potential for the engagement to be decided on one hit wonder spells.
So ironically enough, i think the more Tanks you have the more you can move on the map and sustain the attack.
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EPT
