The wait is over! After a long and grueling process of judging, we have narrowed down 130 TLMC7 submissions all the way down to 15. As a reminder, this particular TLMC has a few twists, one of the most prominent being that mappers had to submit maps to one of four categories (Macro, Rush, New, Gold). From the pool of submitted maps, we would choose 4 Macro Maps, 4 Rush Maps, 4 "New" Maps and 3 "Gold" Maps in our final 15.
Before we begin, a note on this category submission system. Early on in our judging, it became quite apparent that some categories were clearly weaker than others. Still, we were still fairy happy with the system as it promoted very diversified entries compared to previous contents. While we got our usual high quality standard maps, we also got a lot of cool creative entries that really showcased new concepts and in that way the categories were a success. That being said, we will be working with all mappers in the coming two phases (BasetradeTV Tournament Phase and Iteration Phase) to improve the maps before the final voting stage where you, the Starcraft community, will get to pick who wins the cash prizes.
FINALISTS
Macro Maps
Predictably, Macro was by far the most popular and competitive category. A total of 50 maps were submitted primarily into the Macro category and we had 10 or so maps that were finalist or almost finalist worthy. Though creativity certainly doesn't hurt, this category mostly came down to clean and solid execution.
Annihilation Station | Meavis
Macro map featuring multiple attack paths for flanks and zone control.
Watch the various high ground attack paths carefully when progressing into later stages of the game.
Scored the highest in the layout category in our internal voting.
Apotheosis | NegativeZero
Previously known as Miris Spele.
A map split horizontally by the bridges in the middle, restricting movement.
Features two different third base options: an aggressive gold towards the middle or defensive blue at the rear sides of the map. Choose carefully.
Watch the natural destructible rocks as you progress further into the game.
Frozen Zone | Kycsyhuszar
A 2-in-1 macro map with spawn-dependent expanding patterns. You can only spawn cross from each other.
Top Right/Bottom Left Spawns are reminiscent of Polar Night.
Your third and/or fourth base is protected by backdoor rocks in the Bottom Left versus Top Right spawn locations.
Supports the usage of neighboring spawn locations.
Galactic Process | Newsunshine
Yes, yes, we all know it looks like Cloud Kingdom.
Watch the rear attack paths carefully as you expand and secure yourself an economic advantage.
Utilize the different attack paths stealthily to gain an advantage.
Tasteless secret hallways lie in the northwest and southeast locations.
Rush Maps
The Rush category was one that we struggled with with a total of 26 total submissions. The big problem we had here was that a large portion of the submitted maps generally not "rushy" enough, just below-average size standard maps. In fact, we don't particularly consider some of the finalists in this category true rush maps. In the future, we can work on communicating what exactly constitutes a rush map, but for now, here are four fairly solid maps that were submitted in this category.
Korhal Killzone | SidianTheBard
A relatively standard map layout, but with a focus on promoting aggressive strategies.
The mid-map terrain is isolated and choky at first, but breaking destructible rocks reduces rush distances and opens up new attack paths.
Namaste | Avex
A map with huge emphasis on aggressive playstyles and gold base utilization.
Watch the gold bases carefully in the early stages as they are likely used as part of the enemy strategy.
Use the rock towers to your advantage as you progress towards the mid-game.
The northern part of the map is very narrow as opposed to the open and less aggressive southern part of the map.
Scored the highest in the aesthetics category in our internal voting.
Paladino Terminal | Namrufus
Features a very short attack route with a narrow, middle opening that is 2x2 in size.
A longer rush distance lies around the destructible rocks.
Destroy the rocks to access new paths to attack your opponent.
Shiva | IeZaeL
This map is split into three different lanes.
The bottom lane has a short rush distance and the potential for aggressive expanding.
The middle lane features destructible rocks and gives access to gold bases.
The top area of the map allows for more defensive expanding patterns and strategies.
Each has its own pros/cons, so choose carefully.
New Maps
37 maps were primarily submitted in this category and in general a combination of creative ideas and execution on those ideas dominated this category. Hopefully some of these maps will leave your scratching your head and really turn the game upside down.
Aiur Plateau | th0t
Each natural expansion has very different consequences and purposes. There is an aggressive and defensive normal blue base as well as an unique gold base.
Utilize the rear attack paths and the middle carefully when progressing to the mid-game.
Pay attention to the watch towers as units can harass the gold bases from the low ground.
Scored the highest in the creativity category in our internal voting.
Dasan Station | Enekh
This map features a very aggressive main attack path protected by a narrow ramp with a 2x2 wide destructible rock.
Choose your expansion carefully on this map. One is protected by rocks and isolated in the back but the gold base secures you an economic lead and forward position.
Open up new attack paths by destroying rocks and mining out gold minerals.
We have no idea how this map will play out either.
Eris | Uvantak
The main choke has ramps leading to two separate expansions.
While initially tight, the map does open up after destructible rocks are killed, leading to many different paths.
Expanding patterns vary slightly depending on which gold you wish to expand towards.
New Gettysburg | Jacky
There are four island bases in the middle of the map. Each island has air blockers surrounding it so that air units can only enter through two entrances, making the islands much more easily defendable.
The narrow, shorter attack path a là Ulrena is key throughout the entire game while the northern part becomes more vital the later the game progresses.
Securing the aggressive island bases will provide you with a key positional advantage on the narrow bridge.
Gold Maps
Though this was the smallest category sitting at 17 maps submitted and it had some pretty hard bombs, it produced some fairly strong finalists. The best maps in this category were ones that really well-utilized their Gold bases in creative ways to direct the flow of the game.
Caldeum Plateau | Avex
An aggressive macro map featuring a large variety of expansion choices.
Each gold base features unique defensive and aggresive mechanisms.
The normal bases are safer and more isolated while the gold bases promote more aggressive play.
Flame Juggler | Fatam
An aggressive gold base map with heavy emphasis on natural base choice.
The in-base normal base is safer than the aggressive high-ground gold base.
Watch the area around the watch tower closely as this area is key to positional play on this map in the mid-game.
Gojira Greenhouse | Avex
Macro map featuring gold bases that allows for more mobility as the game progresses to the later stages.
The layout features a more narrow high ground and more open low ground.
Gold bases wall off your natural.
You cannot fit a CC/Hatchery/Nexus between your natural and these Gold bases..
What's Next?
Well first, all the maps are currently available to play on the NA and EU servers. You can find them by searching for the tag [TLMC7].
Next, between May 23rd-May 29th, BaseTradeTV will be hosting their BasetradeTV Map Test Tournament exclusively on these maps. Come watch top notch players play try to abuse these new maps to the best of their abilities. Afterwards, mappers will be given 1 week to balance and touch up their maps for the final judging process where you can vote for your favorite maps. The entire process is detailed here. So what do you think about the finalists? What are your favorite maps? Which maps got snubbed? Leave your thoughts and comments below!
in all seriousness, i'm happy to see a fairly good selection of maps, and a good variety in finalists this time. (kinda helps that i'm on the list :D) there's a couple i wouldn't have put up there, but with 15 it's not that big of a deal.
could you consider watching at my map map again? I can't believe it didn't make it into the Finalist: Demise on the Temple I already tested it with a couple of very good players. It was 3 months of work. It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: could you consider watching at my map map again? I can't believe it didn't make it into the Finalist: Demise on the Temple I already tested it with a couple of very good players. It was 3 months of work. It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Our main judging process ignored the identity of the mapmakers.
On May 20 2016 22:23 SkyBlaze wrote: did anyone else notice that "Newsunshine" looks a lot like "Cloud Kingdom" with some small changes?
GALACTIC PROCESS | Newsunshine
Yes, yes, we all know it looks like Cloud Kingdom.
SMALL CHANGES? Who is this extremely cynical human being?
Apparently to win a TLMC you just need to Re-texture cloud kingdom 6 TLMC's later! trolololol Grats to all finalists! =) I might do a second post today with my initial thoughts/pros/cons on each map. =) Excited for Basetrade tournament, a ton of good & interesting maps.
My mind can't even wrap around how Aiur Plateau would play lol.
the rush/macro categories concept should be reworked for next time, as it seems that "macro" was understood as "turtly" and "rush" as "open third/fourth"
For instance, I have the impression that Khoral killingzone will end up in lot of macro games, while some maps in the macro categories will just lead to very dull pasdive games in the first 10 minutes.
That said, each category has some very good map, with clear favourites in my eyes, but only from the tournament will come the truth...
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: could you consider watching at my map map again? I can't believe it didn't make it into the Finalist: Demise on the Temple I already tested it with a couple of very good players. It was 3 months of work. It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Our main judging process ignored the identity of the mapmakers.
In my personal opinion, the quality of Demise on the Temple is superior to maps that are in the Finalists here. Of course you can blame me that im not subjective. But People who played my map enyojed it and had a lot of fun. Nonetheless there are 3 maps of Avex in the Finalists. Wouldn't it be fair to make it not that one sided. And we all know that Basetrade TV uses Avex's maps, but I'd like to believe that Basetrase TV had no influence in the map election. But the election has a smell of nepotism.
Hope Namaste and Apotheosis make it. Good luck to you guys.
But I think the need for "rush maps" is dumb. A rush, in most cases, takes place in front of another players natural and main base, while the rest of the map is completely irrelevant. What a dumb request by Blizzard.
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: could you consider watching at my map map again? I can't believe it didn't make it into the Finalist: Demise on the Temple I already tested it with a couple of very good players. It was 3 months of work. It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Our main judging process ignored the identity of the mapmakers.
In my personal opinion, the quality of Demise on the Temple is superior to maps that are in the Finalists here. Of course you can blame me that im not subjective. But People who played my map enyojed it and had a lot of fun. Nonetheless there are 3 maps of Avex in the Finalists. Wouldn't it be fair to make it not that one sided. And we all know that Basetrade TV uses Avex's maps, but I'd like to believe that Basetrase TV had no influence in the map election.
Bolded part: I have heard this sort of thing a ton of times from mapmakers, even when it came to maps that actually weren't good at all. Heck, I had a similar experience on one of my (not great) maps.
And you would be correct, BaseTradeTV did not influence the judging. Avex made it in on his own merit.
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: could you consider watching at my map map again? I can't believe it didn't make it into the Finalist: Demise on the Temple I already tested it with a couple of very good players. It was 3 months of work. It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Our main judging process ignored the identity of the mapmakers.
In my personal opinion, the quality of Demise on the Temple is superior to maps that are in the Finalists here. Of course you can blame me that im not subjective. But People who played my map enyojed it and had a lot of fun. Nonetheless there are 3 maps of Avex in the Finalists. Wouldn't it be fair to make it not that one sided. And we all know that Basetrade TV uses Avex's maps, but I'd like to believe that Basetrase TV had no influence in the map election. The election has a smell of nepotism.
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: could you consider watching at my map map again? I can't believe it didn't make it into the Finalist: Demise on the Temple I already tested it with a couple of very good players. It was 3 months of work. It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Sorry but this actually looks like a beginners map. Maybe its the graphics but the aesthetics seem lackluster.
It would be great, if there were a list of some maps that didn't quite make the cut, but the judges liked however. Some of us didn't get any feedback on our maps, so some encouragement would be great.
Finalists look great, though. I like the look of Korhal Killzone. Gojira Greenhouse looks like fun to play. Just my opinions.
Great Job everyone! Blizzard is lucky to have such a skilled community. One would think more maps would be available throughout all expansions of Starcraft. I'm sure these finalist maps took time, effort, and work. This wealth of quality input for 1k$, from a worldwide company like Blizzard, seems like a bit of a steal to me. Can't wait to watch the Tourney!
Don't get salty, boys. Plenty of us wish we had our map in the last remaining 15. Be glad that you had the chance to participate rather than complain that opinions on the quality of a map are subjective. Sportmanship is important
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Okay, I took my time and counted finalists from each country (sorry if I got someone wrong, I used publicly available information for it): USA - 6, South Korea - 2, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Uruguay - 1.
Anyone else keep checking this thread just to see a rant from Meavis? He always has harsh words for the maps the judges pick :p
Don't get salty, boys. Plenty of us wish we had our map in the last remaining 15. Be glad that you had the chance to participate rather than complain that opinions on the quality of a map are subjective. Sportmanship is important
Aye, I'm sure everyone who didn't make (me included) is upset, but its pretty low to go belittling the maps that did make it and trying to claim the judges are biased. There's nothing you can do anyways, just except your defeat and try to make better maps in the future.
Hey the TL home page says "TLMC Winners Announced".
Anyway, I guess one of my maps is a finalist - pretty cool.
I'm surprised that Blizzard allowed the unbuildable blockers at the inbase nat on Caldeum Plateau. (Not that I'm upset about it, I'm glad that this nonstandard use is now "ladder approved")
Anyway, I'm flipping crazy hyped for the BasetradeTV tournament - holy shit!
Annihilation Station: Solid macro map, easy to grab natural & third, lots of movement throughout the entire map, enough bases to take.
Apotheosis: This was one of my favorites, although not sure I'm a huge fan of the gold base (I told -0 this) and also I'm not sure I"m a fan of the rock tower/choke now. I feel like knocking down those rocks and placing a tank or two while you ferry units over is going to be a very deadly push for terran. (Think dash and terminal tanks shelling the natural from behind the rocks)
Frozen Zone: Not really a fan of this one. You either have Polar Night Main/Nat/3rd, which we've already seen, or the whole main/nat/3rd hugging the main. Gold bases will never get used unless you're super far ahead. I also think it gets a little awkward to expand if you're going for late game.
Cloud Kingdom 2.0: Should be a solid map. Great re-texture job! ... Seriously though, the secret hallways are a nice touch although terran/protoss pushing zerg's natural from that hallway makes me a little nervous, not too much of a fan of the gold bases but the initial 4-5 bases are good. Plenty of great movement around the entire map.
Korhal Killzone: My map, won't comment on because it's the perfect map (lol)
Namaste: Okay, besides the aesthetics I do not like this map one bit. The top half is EXTREMELY choked. The bottom half will never get used. Even zerg, the only race that would like to expand towards the bottom would have to expand a loooong as hell way away to get to that base. It's been awhile since we played Ohana but I really don't want to see wonwonwon 24/7 again. Seriously the entire top half has like single wide forcefield chokes, no places for surrounds and you can even knock down a rock tower to completely block off any chance of the zerg flanking you.
Paladino Terminal: It's a decent rush map, but pathing seems a little boring, but since it's super small there isn't a whole lot you can do with pathing. The middle choke is neat (I believe it blocks the bigger units?) This map should never get past 4 base vs 4 base as it'll just be too aggressive (nothing wrong with that though)
Shiva: It could play for very interesting games, I like the "moonlight madness" rock tower that the enemy can break down on the offensive to lock out the natural from the third. Not sure I'm a huge fan of the northeast section of the map, seems everything is always going to gravitate towards the southwest/middle. Terran taking the gold as their third and parade pushing in might be a little too strong, especially if you set up a tank or two by the other gold and shell over into the natural.
Aiur Plateau: Perfect example of a new map. Unfortunately with all new maps, if it got ladder it'd probably be veto'd more then Korhal Carnage (I can make this joke because that was my map...) I can't even wrap my head around how this would play to be honest. It's very neat and well thought out. Would 12 pool be too strong since there are two (technically three) entrances into the main? Would any speedling opener be too strong? Tough to say without playing it a ton.
Dasan Station: The main/aggressive gold seem to be the only interesting things on this map. I'll love to see how that is going to play out but the rest of the map is just boring to me and I don't know if it'll ever get used. The 2oclock & 8oclock part of the map is soooo far away by ground that expanding there (and defending) is going to be tough so you're always going to see people expanding behind their gold minerals but then you have to worry about the super aggressive path in the middle all the while looping alllll the way back around to defend your natural/3rd.
Eris: Not too much of a fan of this map either, I prefered other Uvantak maps over this one. I do like the main/nat/3rd setup but after that I think it gets a little boring. All bases hugging the edges, a ton of rocks to prevent any early game movement. The gold bases just seem & feel awkward and I don't think will ever get used. Uvantak has a million great maps and at least for me, this isn't one of them.
New Gettysburg: Hi, welcome to sc2 I would like to build 1 barracks here. Okay, time to build a factory...hmm...guess I'll build that factory on the low ground by the Ulrena type bridge because there is no god damn room in the main, natural, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc etc etc etc. It's an interesting map although air blockers tend to be very buggy. I also dont think they serve much of a point because libs, banshees, voids, oracles, mutas(?) seem like they should all be able to still harass & deny minerals/gas from behind the walls. It's also a very boring movement wise map, you go across the long ass choked bridge or you go north and fight in the wide open area.
Caldeum Plateau: I like this map a lot, especially mid/late game. Although I would like it better if the inbase natural didn't have the debris on it, otherwise the other natural you can take just feels so far away with a lot of chokes you have to defend. The early game scares me on this map so I feel you'll see a lot of non-sense right away. If it gets to mid/late game I like this map a ton. Either remove the debris or block off the ramp by the natural that goes toward the gold, then the attack has to commit to either attacking from the gold base into that tight choke or they'll have to commit the entire other way up the ramp and into your natural.
Flame Juggler: Best gold map, I liked it a ton when Fatam originally posted it. Easy natural, aggressive gold that forces movement on the northeast side of the map or else your gold will get denied. Bottom half open but more base dense for the zerg, top half less base dense but chokier for the others. Close 3rd if you choose not to gold it. A+
Gojira Greenhouse: Some of the movement on this map will feel a little awkward especially with the gold base mineral walls. I think I would try to open the map up a little more in certain areas because some of it seems a little too choked off. I like the main/downramp natural/gold base mineral wall, but I dislike the other "natural" choice. It's very fair away and the path to get to it (with those 4 high ground overlord pods) seems unneccassary. I think if we could open the map up a little more and change up that 2oclock/8oclock "natural/3rd" regular base a bit it'd be a solid map.
___
Either way, take this feedback as you will, congrats to all finalists! Excited to see these maps played!
On May 20 2016 23:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Paladino Terminal: It's a decent rush map, but pathing seems a little boring, but since it's super small there isn't a whole lot you can do with pathing. The middle choke is neat (I believe it blocks the bigger units?) This map should never get past 4 base vs 4 base as it'll just be too aggressive (nothing wrong with that though) ___
Either way, take this feedback as you will, congrats to all finalists! Excited to see these maps played!
All units can go through the center of paladino, the choke size is the same as ulrena's tiny pathway.
My favourites; 1. Dasan Station 2. Aiur Plateau (both of those maps are incredible) 3. Annihilation Station, Apotheosis (standard yet do enough to be interesting) 5. Caldeum, Paladino, Galatic Process. (comparable qualitiy, different categories, hard to differentiate)
Some of these categories seem kinda forced. Gojira Greenhouse is a cool map, but the fact that the mineral walls are gold instead of blue has very little to do with it...
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Okay, I took my time and counted finalists from each country (sorry if I got someone wrong, I used publicly available information for it): USA - 6, South Korea - 2, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Uruguay - 1.
Are you implying there is US bias in TLMC?
If we go by number of active users, i think it's clear that i'm obviously biasing the judging process towards italians (im joking btw)
Every map looks fantastic except for Apotheosis, that map looks like it would be hopelessly imbalanced against Zerg with tanks/Liberators and force fields doing some serious work.
On May 21 2016 00:26 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Some of these categories seem kinda forced. Gojira Greenhouse is a cool map, but the fact that the mineral walls are gold instead of blue has very little to do with it...
Gojira was submitted as a Macro map without a gold subcategory, I was surprised too.
On May 21 2016 00:26 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Some of these categories seem kinda forced. Gojira Greenhouse is a cool map, but the fact that the mineral walls are gold instead of blue has very little to do with it...
Gojira was submitted as a Macro map without a gold subcategory, I was surprised too.
I still like my piece of feedback for that map D: (allowing a town hall to be placed behind the gold minerals in exchange for reduced access to gas)
On May 21 2016 00:26 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Some of these categories seem kinda forced. Gojira Greenhouse is a cool map, but the fact that the mineral walls are gold instead of blue has very little to do with it...
Gojira was submitted as a Macro map without a gold subcategory, I was surprised too.
I still like my piece of feedback for that map D: (allowing a town hall to be placed behind the gold minerals in exchange for reduced access to gas)
I have a rendition with that change saved on my harddrive - I personally felt it was really awkward unless I made the change I posted where the natural was highground. I would've made the gold minerals placed along the ramp with that change, but I dunno.
It could still happen, changes are bound to be created next week.
On May 20 2016 23:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Annihilation Station: Solid macro map, easy to grab natural & third, lots of movement throughout the entire map, enough bases to take.
Apotheosis: This was one of my favorites, although not sure I'm a huge fan of the gold base (I told -0 this) and also I'm not sure I"m a fan of the rock tower/choke now. I feel like knocking down those rocks and placing a tank or two while you ferry units over is going to be a very deadly push for terran. (Think dash and terminal tanks shelling the natural from behind the rocks)
Frozen Zone: Not really a fan of this one. You either have Polar Night Main/Nat/3rd, which we've already seen, or the whole main/nat/3rd hugging the main. Gold bases will never get used unless you're super far ahead. I also think it gets a little awkward to expand if you're going for late game.
Cloud Kingdom 2.0: Should be a solid map. Great re-texture job! ... Seriously though, the secret hallways are a nice touch although terran/protoss pushing zerg's natural from that hallway makes me a little nervous, not too much of a fan of the gold bases but the initial 4-5 bases are good. Plenty of great movement around the entire map.
Korhal Killzone: My map, won't comment on because it's the perfect map (lol)
Namaste: Okay, besides the aesthetics I do not like this map one bit. The top half is EXTREMELY choked. The bottom half will never get used. Even zerg, the only race that would like to expand towards the bottom would have to expand a loooong as hell way away to get to that base. It's been awhile since we played Ohana but I really don't want to see wonwonwon 24/7 again. Seriously the entire top half has like single wide forcefield chokes, no places for surrounds and you can even knock down a rock tower to completely block off any chance of the zerg flanking you.
Paladino Terminal: It's a decent rush map, but pathing seems a little boring, but since it's super small there isn't a whole lot you can do with pathing. The middle choke is neat (I believe it blocks the bigger units?) This map should never get past 4 base vs 4 base as it'll just be too aggressive (nothing wrong with that though)
Shiva: It could play for very interesting games, I like the "moonlight madness" rock tower that the enemy can break down on the offensive to lock out the natural from the third. Not sure I'm a huge fan of the northeast section of the map, seems everything is always going to gravitate towards the southwest/middle. Terran taking the gold as their third and parade pushing in might be a little too strong, especially if you set up a tank or two by the other gold and shell over into the natural.
Aiur Plateau: Perfect example of a new map. Unfortunately with all new maps, if it got ladder it'd probably be veto'd more then Korhal Carnage (I can make this joke because that was my map...) I can't even wrap my head around how this would play to be honest. It's very neat and well thought out. Would 12 pool be too strong since there are two (technically three) entrances into the main? Would any speedling opener be too strong? Tough to say without playing it a ton.
Dasan Station: The main/aggressive gold seem to be the only interesting things on this map. I'll love to see how that is going to play out but the rest of the map is just boring to me and I don't know if it'll ever get used. The 2oclock & 8oclock part of the map is soooo far away by ground that expanding there (and defending) is going to be tough so you're always going to see people expanding behind their gold minerals but then you have to worry about the super aggressive path in the middle all the while looping alllll the way back around to defend your natural/3rd.
Eris: Not too much of a fan of this map either, I prefered other Uvantak maps over this one. I do like the main/nat/3rd setup but after that I think it gets a little boring. All bases hugging the edges, a ton of rocks to prevent any early game movement. The gold bases just seem & feel awkward and I don't think will ever get used. Uvantak has a million great maps and at least for me, this isn't one of them.
New Gettysburg: Hi, welcome to sc2 I would like to build 1 barracks here. Okay, time to build a factory...hmm...guess I'll build that factory on the low ground by the Ulrena type bridge because there is no god damn room in the main, natural, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc etc etc etc. It's an interesting map although air blockers tend to be very buggy. I also dont think they serve much of a point because libs, banshees, voids, oracles, mutas(?) seem like they should all be able to still harass & deny minerals/gas from behind the walls. It's also a very boring movement wise map, you go across the long ass choked bridge or you go north and fight in the wide open area.
Caldeum Plateau: I like this map a lot, especially mid/late game. Although I would like it better if the inbase natural didn't have the debris on it, otherwise the other natural you can take just feels so far away with a lot of chokes you have to defend. The early game scares me on this map so I feel you'll see a lot of non-sense right away. If it gets to mid/late game I like this map a ton. Either remove the debris or block off the ramp by the natural that goes toward the gold, then the attack has to commit to either attacking from the gold base into that tight choke or they'll have to commit the entire other way up the ramp and into your natural.
Flame Juggler: Best gold map, I liked it a ton when Fatam originally posted it. Easy natural, aggressive gold that forces movement on the northeast side of the map or else your gold will get denied. Bottom half open but more base dense for the zerg, top half less base dense but chokier for the others. Close 3rd if you choose not to gold it. A+
Gojira Greenhouse: Some of the movement on this map will feel a little awkward especially with the gold base mineral walls. I think I would try to open the map up a little more in certain areas because some of it seems a little too choked off. I like the main/downramp natural/gold base mineral wall, but I dislike the other "natural" choice. It's very fair away and the path to get to it (with those 4 high ground overlord pods) seems unneccassary. I think if we could open the map up a little more and change up that 2oclock/8oclock "natural/3rd" regular base a bit it'd be a solid map.
___
Either way, take this feedback as you will, congrats to all finalists! Excited to see these maps played!
I agree with basically all of this. In general I think the finalists are a better pool than they have been before, but there are still quite a few underwhelming, safely average choices that were picked over highly interesting ones, even in the gold base and new-map categories.
Random thoughts that are probably not relevant, but here they are nonetheless :
- Apotheosis and Frozen Zone really makes me want to play the game immediatly, I think it's a good sign of high quality maps. Frozen Zone is maybe my favorite map from the 15, but that's just a first impression.
- Galactic Process : I think it's good to revamp old maps and adapt them to today's game, but this one is too turtly, any chance the rocks near the 3rd can be removed? (even if that means removing the behind the rocks 4th at the same time?)
-khoral killzone : I'm probably weird but I would love this map if it was in macro category...
-paladino : the best rush map in the sense that it's really "rushy" : fast, violent and bloddy. Nevertheless, the center is one narrow way in the middle of two wide ways blocked by rocks, wouldn't it be better if it was one wide way blocked by rocks with to narrow ways on the sides?
-dasan station : one of the best map overall and the best "new map" imho but I gotta admit I don't understand aiur plateau so it's a possibility this one is the best New gettysburg is kinda cool too, if players manage to actually use these islands in the center it could be a very good "new" map
- I really have hard time figuring out the gold map category, but I have the impression Caldeum plateau would be better if it was a tad more open...
Anyway good job guys, and good luck for the next stages of the competition.
Annihilation Station: Solid macro map, easy to grab natural & third, lots of movement throughout the entire map, enough bases to take.
Apotheosis: This was one of my favorites, although not sure I'm a huge fan of the gold base (I told -0 this) and also I'm not sure I"m a fan of the rock tower/choke now. I feel like knocking down those rocks and placing a tank or two while you ferry units over is going to be a very deadly push for terran. (Think dash and terminal tanks shelling the natural from behind the rocks)
Frozen Zone: Not really a fan of this one. You either have Polar Night Main/Nat/3rd, which we've already seen, or the whole main/nat/3rd hugging the main. Gold bases will never get used unless you're super far ahead. I also think it gets a little awkward to expand if you're going for late game.
Cloud Kingdom 2.0: Should be a solid map. Great re-texture job! ... Seriously though, the secret hallways are a nice touch although terran/protoss pushing zerg's natural from that hallway makes me a little nervous, not too much of a fan of the gold bases but the initial 4-5 bases are good. Plenty of great movement around the entire map.
Korhal Killzone: My map, won't comment on because it's the perfect map (lol)
Namaste: Okay, besides the aesthetics I do not like this map one bit. The top half is EXTREMELY choked. The bottom half will never get used. Even zerg, the only race that would like to expand towards the bottom would have to expand a loooong as hell way away to get to that base. It's been awhile since we played Ohana but I really don't want to see wonwonwon 24/7 again. Seriously the entire top half has like single wide forcefield chokes, no places for surrounds and you can even knock down a rock tower to completely block off any chance of the zerg flanking you.
Paladino Terminal: It's a decent rush map, but pathing seems a little boring, but since it's super small there isn't a whole lot you can do with pathing. The middle choke is neat (I believe it blocks the bigger units?) This map should never get past 4 base vs 4 base as it'll just be too aggressive (nothing wrong with that though)
Shiva: It could play for very interesting games, I like the "moonlight madness" rock tower that the enemy can break down on the offensive to lock out the natural from the third. Not sure I'm a huge fan of the northeast section of the map, seems everything is always going to gravitate towards the southwest/middle. Terran taking the gold as their third and parade pushing in might be a little too strong, especially if you set up a tank or two by the other gold and shell over into the natural.
Aiur Plateau: Perfect example of a new map. Unfortunately with all new maps, if it got ladder it'd probably be veto'd more then Korhal Carnage (I can make this joke because that was my map...) I can't even wrap my head around how this would play to be honest. It's very neat and well thought out. Would 12 pool be too strong since there are two (technically three) entrances into the main? Would any speedling opener be too strong? Tough to say without playing it a ton.
Dasan Station: The main/aggressive gold seem to be the only interesting things on this map. I'll love to see how that is going to play out but the rest of the map is just boring to me and I don't know if it'll ever get used. The 2oclock & 8oclock part of the map is soooo far away by ground that expanding there (and defending) is going to be tough so you're always going to see people expanding behind their gold minerals but then you have to worry about the super aggressive path in the middle all the while looping alllll the way back around to defend your natural/3rd.
Eris: Not too much of a fan of this map either, I prefered other Uvantak maps over this one. I do like the main/nat/3rd setup but after that I think it gets a little boring. All bases hugging the edges, a ton of rocks to prevent any early game movement. The gold bases just seem & feel awkward and I don't think will ever get used. Uvantak has a million great maps and at least for me, this isn't one of them.
New Gettysburg: Hi, welcome to sc2 I would like to build 1 barracks here. Okay, time to build a factory...hmm...guess I'll build that factory on the low ground by the Ulrena type bridge because there is no god damn room in the main, natural, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc etc etc etc. It's an interesting map although air blockers tend to be very buggy. I also dont think they serve much of a point because libs, banshees, voids, oracles, mutas(?) seem like they should all be able to still harass & deny minerals/gas from behind the walls. It's also a very boring movement wise map, you go across the long ass choked bridge or you go north and fight in the wide open area.
Caldeum Plateau: I like this map a lot, especially mid/late game. Although I would like it better if the inbase natural didn't have the debris on it, otherwise the other natural you can take just feels so far away with a lot of chokes you have to defend. The early game scares me on this map so I feel you'll see a lot of non-sense right away. If it gets to mid/late game I like this map a ton. Either remove the debris or block off the ramp by the natural that goes toward the gold, then the attack has to commit to either attacking from the gold base into that tight choke or they'll have to commit the entire other way up the ramp and into your natural.
Flame Juggler: Best gold map, I liked it a ton when Fatam originally posted it. Easy natural, aggressive gold that forces movement on the northeast side of the map or else your gold will get denied. Bottom half open but more base dense for the zerg, top half less base dense but chokier for the others. Close 3rd if you choose not to gold it. A+
Gojira Greenhouse: Some of the movement on this map will feel a little awkward especially with the gold base mineral walls. I think I would try to open the map up a little more in certain areas because some of it seems a little too choked off. I like the main/downramp natural/gold base mineral wall, but I dislike the other "natural" choice. It's very fair away and the path to get to it (with those 4 high ground overlord pods) seems unneccassary. I think if we could open the map up a little more and change up that 2oclock/8oclock "natural/3rd" regular base a bit it'd be a solid map.
___
Either way, take this feedback as you will, congrats to all finalists! Excited to see these maps played!
Interesting thoughts, agreed on a lot of the maps. I never even noticed the golds on Eris somehow, they are definitely questionable. I had a couple issues with 2 of the maps here primarily.
I'm a fan of many Avex maps (Caldeum's final iteration turned out fantastic, I'm really interested to see how a lot of the features work out there. It's surprising but the simple unbuildable rocks on the in-base nat has almost never been seen before. Maybe because it favors terran? idk) but I'm actually not big on Gojira. It's 3 base behind 1 small choke? 4 if you count the mineral wall gold base. Yes drops and blink and air units are a thing, but doesn't zerg just lose auto-lose here? Protoss opens stargates into 3 base and zerg literally can't pressure him at all at any point barring desperation nydus, which will probably be shut down if the protoss is expecting it (and he should be). GG. Also terran probably shits on zerg here as well. Just my 2 cents. Don't get me wrong I think the map has plenty of potential if you open up another way for ground armies to get stuff done; the main-nat is inventive. But get ready for nydus all-ins all day err' day on this map.
More brutal honesty: I don't think the "new" in New Gettysburg is going to work at all, I think people will only take the ground bases most of the time and it will just be Ulrena with more open bases. Ulrena is cool but I think this map was chosen because of the islands. The main issue I see here is that either you a) go for a fairly standard army that is mostly ground-based and you can't take the islands because you're on the ground, or b) you go for a more air-centered style but then you die to ground armies because the ground bases and surrounding areas are too open and the rush distance isn't that long even if you go around so you can't hold pushes that try to punish you. Terran can probably take the closer island base some of the time because they don't have to sacrifice as much to pull it off but it's kind of BS if terran is the only race able to take an island. Maybe some of the god Korean protosses can make it work, idk. Also as has been mentioned before, air blockers are super buggy, so there's that.
And for the positive: I'm excited that maps like Annihilation Station and Korhal Killzone are finally getting their time. They've both been good maps for a long time. Lots of other insanely good maps as well. Tourney should be beyond good.
Wednesday, May 25 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)Theo vs Lillekanin & MaSa vs Neeb *Note: should match 1 finish early, Neeb cannot begin to play until at least 2 hours after the designated start due to school
I tried to make a list with the maps I wish to see on ladder but it's impossible to decide as nearly all of those maps are so damn good. I just hope korhal killzone and eris will end up on the ladder. kinda wish all 7 ladder maps would be from this contest.
Macro map: Apotheosis (annihilation station and galactic process are fantastic too but I really want to see how Apotheosis plays out) Rush map: Korhal Killzone (Namaste and shiva are great too) Gold map: Flame Juggler (Caldeum plateau looks interesting too) New map: Eris
As happy as I was when it was announced that KSS and Frost return to the mappool now I'd prefer it if they scrapped them and instead let us play on more new maps from this contest.
I don't think galactic process is a complete copy from CK as some people mentioned. With the gold bases, the destructible rocks and the slightly different base layout in the middle it has enough features to differentiate it from CK. Would love to play on it.
only just registered, but just gonna say, if I wanted to daybreak, I would play daybreak, not annihilation station, if I wanted to play belshir vestige, I would play belshir vestige, not apohtheosis, if I wanted to play polar night, I would play polar night, not frozen zone, and lastly, if I wanted to play cloud kingdom, I would play cloud kingdom, not galactic process. in other words I would play heart of the swarm.
On May 21 2016 05:55 Supernova1 wrote: only just registered, but just gonna say, if I wanted to daybreak, I would play daybreak, not annihilation station, if I wanted to play belshir vestige, I would play belshir vestige, not apohtheosis, if I wanted to play polar night, I would play polar night, not frozen zone, and lastly, if I wanted to play cloud kingdom, I would play cloud kingdom, not galactic process. in other words I would play heart of the swarm.
There's an expansion for that, it's called heart of the swarm
On May 21 2016 05:55 Supernova1 wrote: only just registered, but just gonna say, if I wanted to daybreak, I would play daybreak, not annihilation station, if I wanted to play belshir vestige, I would play belshir vestige, not apohtheosis, if I wanted to play polar night, I would play polar night, not frozen zone, and lastly, if I wanted to play cloud kingdom, I would play cloud kingdom, not galactic process. in other words I would play heart of the swarm.
On May 20 2016 22:53 Superouman wrote: Yes! i am a finalist again! Why is this contest so easy?
? No you're not.
NewSunshine is one my smurf accounts in the map making community. It was hard to wake up in the middle of the night to pretend to be american on that account Now the secret is out but now i can have a free money shower from that tlmc with that map
On May 21 2016 05:55 Supernova1 wrote: only just registered, but just gonna say, if I wanted to daybreak, I would play daybreak, not annihilation station, if I wanted to play belshir vestige, I would play belshir vestige, not apohtheosis, if I wanted to play polar night, I would play polar night, not frozen zone, and lastly, if I wanted to play cloud kingdom, I would play cloud kingdom, not galactic process. in other words I would play heart of the swarm.
On May 20 2016 23:38 TheSkunk wrote: Anyone else keep checking this thread just to see a rant from Meavis? He always has harsh words for the maps the judges pick :p
Annihilation Station: I don't know why this map is special, even as a macro map. For me it looks ugly because it's just squarey and there seems to be not much flow so yeah.
Apotheosis: Pretty nice map, I like how it made the really long map idea work. Also I love bridges so yeah.
Frozen Zone: Uhh okay... The surface area for mains is way too big, and there are no rewards for that. You're forced to take down the rocks to take the back expo which I think isn't good. It's also quite ugly so I think it'll need ugly in the cliff aesthetics etc.
Galactic Process: I wonder if the back rocks near the 11 o clock and 5 o clock are needed, seems a bit redundant to me. Natural might be a bit too hard.
Rush Maps:
Korhal Killzone: I don't really have an opinion on this map, but I hate square cliffs (my pet peeve). Seems ok.
Namaste: What the hell is going on at the bottom of the map? Just seems rather shit... everything is far apart and there are so many redundant features. If it's supposed to be rush map, why are there random shit going on the map that doesn't add to it? Also, please no square cliffs.. The contrast of colors is nice though.
Palandino Terminal: Pretty cool map, feels like a throwback to WoL. I hope it works. I feel like it might not work though. Would've liked narrower ramps at the rocked ramps, though.
Shiva: I like the look of this map. It's an attempt at 45 degree mirror that works like a rota symmetric, so I hope it works.
New Maps:
Air Plateau: The top and the bottom of the map should have been more elaborate I think, just a thin path for so long seems a bit dull. Fun idea though.
Dasan Station: Fun map, I wish the outskirts of the map would have been better used though.
Eris: The rock positioning kinda discourages the use of the whole map, I wish that aspect was fixed. the top left and bottom right corners are not well done though imo.
New Gettysburg: I feel like there too many islands perhaps. It might encourage air play, but I feel that it might become a win more feature. The rest of the map is well done, good flow and all.
Gold Maps:
Caldeum Plateau: Only two golds are placed well, the 3 o clock and 9 o clock ones. Others are pretty badly placed... Front natural is just weirdly shaped and doesn't increase the quality of the map at all, just gimmicky honestly. However, bridge+.
Flame Juggler: Hearthstone okay. Looks like that changed Blizzard map changed again. I don't know if this map will work? Probably not... But It should have been rush map, not a gold map. Might work.
Gojira GreenHouse: Adjective Noun. The idea of gold minerals blocking paths is a good one, but it'd be better suited for more closed off map. Except for the backdoor, the other one at the middle of the map are kinda meh... Center cliffs are just weird and II don't like it. Square Cliffs-.
Also, shame on you for having no 4p maps. Those are way cooler if done right.
On May 20 2016 23:53 SidianTheBard wrote: New Gettysburg: Hi, welcome to sc2 I would like to build 1 barracks here. Okay, time to build a factory...hmm...guess I'll build that factory on the low ground by the Ulrena type bridge because there is no god damn room in the main, natural, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc etc etc etc. It's an interesting map although air blockers tend to be very buggy. I also dont think they serve much of a point because libs, banshees, voids, oracles, mutas(?) seem like they should all be able to still harass & deny minerals/gas from behind the walls. It's also a very boring movement wise map, you go across the long ass choked bridge or you go north and fight in the wide open area.
On May 21 2016 03:44 Fatam wrote: More brutal honesty: I don't think the "new" in New Gettysburg is going to work at all, I think people will only take the ground bases most of the time and it will just be Ulrena with more open bases. Ulrena is cool but I think this map was chosen because of the islands. The main issue I see here is that either you a) go for a fairly standard army that is mostly ground-based and you can't take the islands because you're on the ground, or b) you go for a more air-centered style but then you die to ground armies because the ground bases and surrounding areas are too open and the rush distance isn't that long even if you go around so you can't hold pushes that try to punish you. Terran can probably take the closer island base some of the time because they don't have to sacrifice as much to pull it off but it's kind of BS if terran is the only race able to take an island. Maybe some of the god Korean protosses can make it work, idk. Also as has been mentioned before, air blockers are super buggy, so there's that.
Funny and great feedback. I just noticed, the main is very small now.
Next, denying minerals/gas from behind the wall is planned. Air blocker is designed to drop with difficulty. If player want to deny minerals/gas in island expansion, need to infiltrate enemy position because resource's position is outside. And it is possible to deny minerals/gas. That's why players use air-units and take advantage in game.
Monotonous map design is intended for players. I realize recently, complex design causes chaos for players. Novel(or complex) map design get praise by mapmakers, but general players hard to understand Novel(or complex) map design. I think we need to design maps easily. Every players are not Diamond, Master, Grand Master ranker.
The Galactic Process hate is dumb, the map really isn't that similar to CK if you actually study it for a minute. It's just vaguely similar because it has the same 1/2/3 base positions and the S shape. A spiritual successor but not nearly close enough to be called a ripoff. The relationship between the nat and the 3/9 o'clock bases is completely different here (you can even take it as a 3rd), the 4ths are completely different, those gold bases don't have a parallel on CK, and neither does the backdoor highground thing.
At least it doesn't have any square cliffs or it would be complete garbage :-P
None of these maps are anything like a previous ladder map. Although I could see how that could be confusing with Flame Juggler on the list. Oh that's right, I forgot. Any map with snow is automatically Polar Night, and map with an S-shaped high ground is automatically Cloud Kingdom.
Annihilation Station: Solid macro map, easy to grab natural & third, lots of movement throughout the entire map, enough bases to take.
Apotheosis: This was one of my favorites, although not sure I'm a huge fan of the gold base (I told -0 this) and also I'm not sure I"m a fan of the rock tower/choke now. I feel like knocking down those rocks and placing a tank or two while you ferry units over is going to be a very deadly push for terran. (Think dash and terminal tanks shelling the natural from behind the rocks)
Frozen Zone: Not really a fan of this one. You either have Polar Night Main/Nat/3rd, which we've already seen, or the whole main/nat/3rd hugging the main. Gold bases will never get used unless you're super far ahead. I also think it gets a little awkward to expand if you're going for late game.
Cloud Kingdom 2.0: Should be a solid map. Great re-texture job! ... Seriously though, the secret hallways are a nice touch although terran/protoss pushing zerg's natural from that hallway makes me a little nervous, not too much of a fan of the gold bases but the initial 4-5 bases are good. Plenty of great movement around the entire map.
Korhal Killzone: My map, won't comment on because it's the perfect map (lol)
Namaste: Okay, besides the aesthetics I do not like this map one bit. The top half is EXTREMELY choked. The bottom half will never get used. Even zerg, the only race that would like to expand towards the bottom would have to expand a loooong as hell way away to get to that base. It's been awhile since we played Ohana but I really don't want to see wonwonwon 24/7 again. Seriously the entire top half has like single wide forcefield chokes, no places for surrounds and you can even knock down a rock tower to completely block off any chance of the zerg flanking you.
Paladino Terminal: It's a decent rush map, but pathing seems a little boring, but since it's super small there isn't a whole lot you can do with pathing. The middle choke is neat (I believe it blocks the bigger units?) This map should never get past 4 base vs 4 base as it'll just be too aggressive (nothing wrong with that though)
Shiva: It could play for very interesting games, I like the "moonlight madness" rock tower that the enemy can break down on the offensive to lock out the natural from the third. Not sure I'm a huge fan of the northeast section of the map, seems everything is always going to gravitate towards the southwest/middle. Terran taking the gold as their third and parade pushing in might be a little too strong, especially if you set up a tank or two by the other gold and shell over into the natural.
Aiur Plateau: Perfect example of a new map. Unfortunately with all new maps, if it got ladder it'd probably be veto'd more then Korhal Carnage (I can make this joke because that was my map...) I can't even wrap my head around how this would play to be honest. It's very neat and well thought out. Would 12 pool be too strong since there are two (technically three) entrances into the main? Would any speedling opener be too strong? Tough to say without playing it a ton.
Dasan Station: The main/aggressive gold seem to be the only interesting things on this map. I'll love to see how that is going to play out but the rest of the map is just boring to me and I don't know if it'll ever get used. The 2oclock & 8oclock part of the map is soooo far away by ground that expanding there (and defending) is going to be tough so you're always going to see people expanding behind their gold minerals but then you have to worry about the super aggressive path in the middle all the while looping alllll the way back around to defend your natural/3rd.
Eris: Not too much of a fan of this map either, I prefered other Uvantak maps over this one. I do like the main/nat/3rd setup but after that I think it gets a little boring. All bases hugging the edges, a ton of rocks to prevent any early game movement. The gold bases just seem & feel awkward and I don't think will ever get used. Uvantak has a million great maps and at least for me, this isn't one of them.
New Gettysburg: Hi, welcome to sc2 I would like to build 1 barracks here. Okay, time to build a factory...hmm...guess I'll build that factory on the low ground by the Ulrena type bridge because there is no god damn room in the main, natural, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc etc etc etc. It's an interesting map although air blockers tend to be very buggy. I also dont think they serve much of a point because libs, banshees, voids, oracles, mutas(?) seem like they should all be able to still harass & deny minerals/gas from behind the walls. It's also a very boring movement wise map, you go across the long ass choked bridge or you go north and fight in the wide open area.
Caldeum Plateau: I like this map a lot, especially mid/late game. Although I would like it better if the inbase natural didn't have the debris on it, otherwise the other natural you can take just feels so far away with a lot of chokes you have to defend. The early game scares me on this map so I feel you'll see a lot of non-sense right away. If it gets to mid/late game I like this map a ton. Either remove the debris or block off the ramp by the natural that goes toward the gold, then the attack has to commit to either attacking from the gold base into that tight choke or they'll have to commit the entire other way up the ramp and into your natural.
Flame Juggler: Best gold map, I liked it a ton when Fatam originally posted it. Easy natural, aggressive gold that forces movement on the northeast side of the map or else your gold will get denied. Bottom half open but more base dense for the zerg, top half less base dense but chokier for the others. Close 3rd if you choose not to gold it. A+
Gojira Greenhouse: Some of the movement on this map will feel a little awkward especially with the gold base mineral walls. I think I would try to open the map up a little more in certain areas because some of it seems a little too choked off. I like the main/downramp natural/gold base mineral wall, but I dislike the other "natural" choice. It's very fair away and the path to get to it (with those 4 high ground overlord pods) seems unneccassary. I think if we could open the map up a little more and change up that 2oclock/8oclock "natural/3rd" regular base a bit it'd be a solid map.
___
Either way, take this feedback as you will, congrats to all finalists! Excited to see these maps played!
Annihilation Station: I don't know why this map is special, even as a macro map. For me it looks ugly because it's just squarey and there seems to be not much flow so yeah.
Apotheosis: Pretty nice map, I like how it made the really long map idea work. Also I love bridges so yeah.
Frozen Zone: Uhh okay... The surface area for mains is way too big, and there are no rewards for that. You're forced to take down the rocks to take the back expo which I think isn't good. It's also quite ugly so I think it'll need ugly in the cliff aesthetics etc.
Galactic Process: I wonder if the back rocks near the 11 o clock and 5 o clock are needed, seems a bit redundant to me. Natural might be a bit too hard.
Rush Maps:
Korhal Killzone: I don't really have an opinion on this map, but I hate square cliffs (my pet peeve). Seems ok.
Namaste: What the hell is going on at the bottom of the map? Just seems rather shit... everything is far apart and there are so many redundant features. If it's supposed to be rush map, why are there random shit going on the map that doesn't add to it? Also, please no square cliffs.. The contrast of colors is nice though.
Palandino Terminal: Pretty cool map, feels like a throwback to WoL. I hope it works. I feel like it might not work though. Would've liked narrower ramps at the rocked ramps, though.
Shiva: I like the look of this map. It's an attempt at 45 degree mirror that works like a rota symmetric, so I hope it works.
New Maps:
Air Plateau: The top and the bottom of the map should have been more elaborate I think, just a thin path for so long seems a bit dull. Fun idea though.
Dasan Station: Fun map, I wish the outskirts of the map would have been better used though.
Eris: The rock positioning kinda discourages the use of the whole map, I wish that aspect was fixed. the top left and bottom right corners are not well done though imo.
New Gettysburg: I feel like there too many islands perhaps. It might encourage air play, but I feel that it might become a win more feature. The rest of the map is well done, good flow and all.
Gold Maps:
Caldeum Plateau: Only two golds are placed well, the 3 o clock and 9 o clock ones. Others are pretty badly placed... Front natural is just weirdly shaped and doesn't increase the quality of the map at all, just gimmicky honestly. However, bridge+.
Flame Juggler: Hearthstone okay. Looks like that changed Blizzard map changed again. I don't know if this map will work? Probably not... But It should have been rush map, not a gold map. Might work.
Gojira GreenHouse: Adjective Noun. The idea of gold minerals blocking paths is a good one, but it'd be better suited for more closed off map. Except for the backdoor, the other one at the middle of the map are kinda meh... Center cliffs are just weird and II don't like it. Square Cliffs-.
Also, shame on you for having no 4p maps. Those are way cooler if done right.
I can get behind almost all of these comments and they very well reflected the judges' way of thinking. The only thing I might have some trouble getting behind is Semmo's criticism of Caldeum Plateau. I think he has to explain it better.
Apotheosis, cool shit, finaly a good pick between TLMC finalists
Frozen zone, okay, but not really spectacular, why this is deserving of a finalist spot is beyond my comprehension.
Galagtic process, Solid adaption of Cloud kingdom with plenty of it's own additions, my only problem with this map is that it will probably get overrated far to hard based of it in some way representing cloud kingdom.
Rush.
Kohral Killzone, map confuses me a bit, the rush distance says rush map, the chokepoints say turtlefest with 0 room for error given the rush distance.
Namaste, Map feels awkward in some areas, it has a short rush distance and hard 3rds, which I gues make for good rush maps, but the chokepoints just completely disincentivize aggression beyond killing your opponents attempt at taking a 3rd, predicting any early-midgame balance issues in the game to be most visible on this map.The best use of the bottom side of the map will probably be the occasional game where someone hides a base there, not expecting much use of that space. not sure if it's a wasted finalist spot, or just a rather meager one.
Paladino terminal, Proportions are off along the center, I suggest moving the ramps to the center back a bit into the high grounds and expanding the center low ground paths. Meh choice, also feels rather poorly executed,.
Shiva, not gonna comment much on this, my only grudge is that it took so long to get picked up. It's not really the style of maps I like, but it's still pretty good.
New maps
Aiur plateau, looks interesting at first glance, but the more I look at it, I get a feeling that it's just stacking tons of features that make no sense to have put in, in the hopes of being 3complicated5u. at least aesthetics are on point.
Dasan, theres good reasons why this is so unique, it's general design breaks some core design issues, I won't go into full length on that because that would include writing something 3 times the size of this entire rant.
Eris, I'm not really feeling the rocks here, it just screams turtly early game with a weird mid-lategame.
Gettysburg, Ulrena done right, outside of that not sure if I like how hard it is to avoid our enemy in a direct confrontation, probably lots of deathballing on this one.
Gold
Caldeum plateau, So many expos behind so few points, not feeling it for this one.
Flame Juggler, another map where you'll probably see the corners go to waste.
Gojira, the chokes, this map feels like poor spatial design.
Overal
Picks range from meh to good, there are no real design nightmares plagueing this one unlike previous TLMCs, surprising since theres so many finalists spots now even.
The contest itself I still have major issues with the organization and design of the contest, but before I get to that, some areas that I like:
finalists expanded to 15: pretty nice since finalists was always the only thing that mattered, with more finalists in this once an aeon contest at least theres more potential for maps to break through.
categories: avoiding the catastrophe of TLMC6 where almost every map was a backdoor map is nice.
Now, back to the remaining issues. Judges & Judging. arguably the biggest problem with this contest still, and this one has several sub issues even. One of those is judge demographics and bias, there is a noticeable difference in the style of maps getting through based on the judges, the judging panel for a large part still dictates what style of maps even get through to being properly tested.
Which brings me to another problem with judging, a complete lack of understanding on map design. there are very few people that excell in all areas a judge would ideally have good understanding off, with pro players there's no lack of gameplay and balance, but it ends there, their assumptions are not always as strong fundamentaly unless given plenty of time to really understand a map.
Even if you get someone that is knowledgable on both these areas, you still get the highly complicated aspect of "what is good design"
I'm not sure if this is a problem that will be solved anytime soon, so my hopes go out to a more refinded judging process.
Moving on to comments.
On May 20 2016 22:00 ivancype wrote: So.... Daybreak, Bel'Shir Vestige, Polar Night and Clould Kingdom, Did Proleague help select the maps?
Classic example of complete lack of understanding on map design.
On May 20 2016 22:34 SidianTheBard wrote: Apparently to win a TLMC you just need to Re-texture cloud kingdom 6 TLMC's later! trolololol
It's a good map on it's own, but I just feel theres some underlying truth to this.
On May 20 2016 22:17 IIEclipseII wrote: could you consider watching at my map map again? I can't believe it didn't make it into the Finalist: Demise on the Temple I already tested it with a couple of very good players. It was 3 months of work. It seems like you are favouring certain Mapmakers or nationality
Our main judging process ignored the identity of the mapmakers.
In my personal opinion, the quality of Demise on the Temple is superior to maps that are in the Finalists here. Of course you can blame me that im not subjective. But People who played my map enyojed it and had a lot of fun. Nonetheless there are 3 maps of Avex in the Finalists. Wouldn't it be fair to make it not that one sided. And we all know that Basetrade TV uses Avex's maps, but I'd like to believe that Basetrase TV had no influence in the map election. But the election has a smell of nepotism.
You'll come to understand your own lack of understanding later.
On May 20 2016 23:00 Aunvilgodess wrote: Hope Namaste and Apotheosis make it. Good luck to you guys.
But I think the need for "rush maps" is dumb. A rush, in most cases, takes place in front of another players natural and main base, while the rest of the map is completely irrelevant. What a dumb request by Blizzard.
somewhat agree and disagree, I don't think rush is a proper category, it should've been named micro as opposed to the macro category imo.
On May 20 2016 23:15 MrMcScribbles wrote: Great Job everyone! Blizzard is lucky to have such a skilled community. One would think more maps would be available throughout all expansions of Starcraft. I'm sure these finalist maps took time, effort, and work. This wealth of quality input for 1k$, from a worldwide company like Blizzard, seems like a bit of a steal to me. Can't wait to watch the Tourney!
Money in mapping is a weird thing, it's not really something we do for money, but it takes up a fuckload of time for us, to the point where some form of compensation seems appropriate, I don't have a clue where the grey area for that would lie.
To give some perspective, If I spent every hour working on Annihilation Station, working a minimum wage job instead, it would end up just a bit below the ammount of money as the first place awards.
On May 20 2016 23:25 algue wrote: Don't get salty, boys. Plenty of us wish we had our map in the last remaining 15. Be glad that you had the chance to participate rather than complain that opinions on the quality of a map are subjective. Sportmanship is important
I still have plenty of salt cans from the past few years
On May 20 2016 23:49 Namrufus wrote: Hey the TL home page says "TLMC Winners Announced".
Anyway, I guess one of my maps is a finalist - pretty cool.
I'm surprised that Blizzard allowed the unbuildable blockers at the inbase nat on Caldeum Plateau. (Not that I'm upset about it, I'm glad that this nonstandard use is now "ladder approved")
Anyway, I'm flipping crazy hyped for the BasetradeTV tournament - holy shit!
In some form, these are winners, all the other maps didn't even see the light of day, that to me is still a huge issue with TLMC.
I can't speak to the judges' abilities to judge maps effectively, but you have described a structural problem with the judging process, and that's the point system.
It sounds like there were three or more ratings given on a 1-10 scale by each judge to each map that made it to a certain point. Creativity, aesthetics, layout, ...? These were then averaged, and the highest maps for each category / highest 15 overall were the finalists. Am I close?
If this is generally the idea, you create a problem where many of the finalists are maps whose best quality is being inoffensive - a map that gets 10 10 10 from one judge but 5 5 5 from another scores lower than a map that gets 8's across the board. So maybe the first map is genius and the second judge didn't see it, or maybe it's shite and the first judge is overrating it - but we'll never know, because the comparatively inoffensive, probably mediocre second map gets through.
You need to use a system that's less prone to Average, because you don't want Average maps as finalists, you want Great maps. So maybe it's a round robin head to head comparison, and the top X are finalists, or maybe it's that every judge ranks maps 1-23 independently of each other and the top 15 are finalists, or something along those lines. But points are definitely not the way to go...
If you're interested in something that's objective, or in other words Unbiased, you're not going to find it, because it doesn't exist. Just acknowledge whatever bias the judges do have, and work with it, and make the best selection you can instead of accepting that a bunch of the finalists aren't even appealing to most of the judges.
Here's to TLMC8 having a better process and better maps
On May 21 2016 11:35 Jacky_ wrote: Monotonous map design is intended for players. I realize recently, complex design causes chaos for players. Novel(or complex) map design get praise by mapmakers, but general players hard to understand Novel(or complex) map design. I think we need to design maps easily. Every players are not Diamond, Master, Grand Master ranker.
Well I'm not sure there are any "perfect" judges of maps out there. Of course we as mappers sometimes think we know it all, but that's dubious because everyone has slight unconscious biases, and maps can be rather hard to judge correctly 100% of the time (I'm pretty sure we've all denounced a map before and it turned out great).
I think a menagerie of people who know the game well and have a lot of experience with maps is all you can ask for, assuming that those people are willing to put the time in and take it seriously. I like throwing a couple pro players in there, they may not be able to judge maps as well but they can point out shit that someone that is just masters or w/e might not catch. Rating system seems fine, maybe next time reconsider the categories a tiny bit but they were mostly a good idea.
On May 21 2016 20:04 Xenotolerance wrote: I can't speak to the judges' abilities to judge maps effectively, but you have described a structural problem with the judging process, and that's the point system.
It sounds like there were three or more ratings given on a 1-10 scale by each judge to each map that made it to a certain point. Creativity, aesthetics, layout, ...? These were then averaged, and the highest maps for each category / highest 15 overall were the finalists. Am I close?
I agree the wording is confusing, but this is what it means:
There were four ratings given on a 1-10 scale (1) overall (2) layout (3) creativity (4) aesthetics
(1) is not an average of (2), (3), and (4), but rather its own fully independent score. Only (1) was used for deciding the top 15.
maybe it's that every judge ranks maps 1-23 independently of each other and the top 15 are finalists, or something along those lines.
So basically this is what was done.
Not really, there's a salient difference between giving each map a 10 point rating then take the average from all judges, and having to decide on rankings 1-23 and filter the outcome, especially in how you can weigh the rankings. I'd want to see something like, Every judge's first choice is a finalist, every judge's second choice is a finalist unless two other judges veto, every judge's third choice is a finalist unless one other judge vetos. Fill in what's left by aggregate rankings. This way the judges can exercise their judgment more directly, and you'd get fewer Indifferent results.
Thank you for clearing up the ratings btw, I appreciate it
and let me be clear, I don't think the judges did anything wrong, so it's not a criticism of you as people or judges or anything like that. I just think if the same judges made the same evaluations in a different process, they'd end up with a stronger pool of finalists
Sick map picks, there's a couple I'm not a huge fan of, but still I'm sure the picks are pretty much perfect lol, TL judges just have the best taste :D
Air blocker in Ghettysburg means Terran can't float to the islands right? Makes it more fair and really awesome heh, I already liked it before knowing those were air blockers.
Big fan of Frozen Zone and mad props to Avex for having 3 maps in the finalists. Basetradetv tourney hype!
edit: The maps in the new map type are so bonkers, gotta love them too.
On May 22 2016 04:42 Xenotolerance wrote: Not really, there's a salient difference between giving each map a 10 point rating then take the average from all judges, and having to decide on rankings 1-23 and filter the outcome, especially in how you can weigh the rankings.
This is something we considered/are considering for future TLMCs, but it honestly makes very little difference. For this contest, it would have literally changed only one result.
I'd want to see something like, Every judge's first choice is a finalist, every judge's second choice is a finalist unless two other judges veto, every judge's third choice is a finalist unless one other judge vetos. Fill in what's left by aggregate rankings. This way the judges can exercise their judgment more directly, and you'd get fewer Indifferent results.
No, I'm confident this would give much worse results.
On May 22 2016 04:42 Xenotolerance wrote: Not really, there's a salient difference between giving each map a 10 point rating then take the average from all judges, and having to decide on rankings 1-23 and filter the outcome, especially in how you can weigh the rankings.
This is something we considered/are considering for future TLMCs, but it honestly makes very little difference. For this contest, it would have literally changed only one result.
How can you know that without actually having those rankings?
No, I'm confident this would give much worse results.
Worse how? Please explain
What TLMC has been doing so far has consistently produced underwhelming sets of finalists, with great but apparently unworthy maps totally overlooked in favor of mediocre maps that get ignored entirely after they place, so get a new system. Get rid of averaged point ratings, do anything else
No, I'm confident this would give much worse results.
Worse how? Please explain
If 1 judge had an abberant opinion, and really liked a map that nobody else liked, that system would allow what most people consider a bad map to instantly make finals. I don't need to go further, because that's already enough reason to abandon such a system. It would elect maps in a way that ignores discussion, where the current system more or less averages out how the judges feel. Just because the judges picked a few maps you didn't like so much doesn't invalidate their process.
Well I'm suggesting this process for the shortlist, so hopefully they've already filtered out the bad maps.
In the model I described, there would be five finalists insta-picked. They'd already have been vetted by three or more rounds of cuts and discussion, so it definitely doesn't ignore discussion. And in any event, the model can easily adapt, and move the vetoes up a step, such that the first choice can be stopped if two or three or w/e of the other judges say No. That way it can avoid the pitfall outlined in your first counterargument. You can also trust the judges to choose wisely, which they did for the most part here it seems, but when averaged, the judge's choices get muddled, and the cream fails to rise to the top.
Plus, even if weak finalists don't invalidate the process, they definitely make obvious a need to reform it.
Also...
This whole discussion gets 100% better if the judges release their data.
publish the list, the ratings, the whole nine yards
On May 22 2016 08:48 Xenotolerance wrote: Well I'm suggesting this process for the shortlist, so hopefully they've already filtered out the bad maps.
In the model I described, there would be five finalists insta-picked. They'd already have been vetted by three or more rounds of cuts and discussion, so it definitely doesn't ignore discussion. And in any event, the model can easily adapt, and move the vetoes up a step, such that the first choice can be stopped if two or three or w/e of the other judges say No. That way it can avoid the pitfall outlined in your first counterargument. You can also trust the judges to choose wisely, which they did for the most part here it seems, but when averaged, the judge's choices get muddled, and the cream fails to rise to the top.
Plus, even if weak finalists don't invalidate the process, they definitely make obvious a need to reform it.
Also...
This whole discussion gets 100% better if the judges release their data.
publish the list, the ratings, the whole nine yards
please
really though why haven't you already?
The only thing your system does is promote maps that one judge thinks is "excellent" and the other judges think is "fair", over maps that the judges overall think are "good". I'm not sure why you would want that. It adds even more variance to the final results than the current system. Most systems try to control for outlying judges, and your system empowers them.
On May 22 2016 08:48 Xenotolerance wrote: You can also trust the judges to choose wisely, which they did for the most part here it seems, but when averaged, the judge's choices get muddled, and the cream fails to rise to the top.
Ok, then what maps do you consider 'cream that failed to rise to the top'? Something to keep in mind is that categories were at play here, and while the Macro category was pretty stacked, the others were less so, Gold in particular was a weak one, that had not-so-great entries.
On May 22 2016 08:48 Xenotolerance wrote: Plus, even if weak finalists don't invalidate the process, they definitely make obvious a need to reform it.
Just because it's a map you don't like doesn't make it a weak finalist. I'm not in love with every map on the list, but I recognize that the judges only had so much to choose from, and they picked the best of what was in front of them.
Besides, I thought they picked much better maps overall this time. I don't seem to be alone in this thinking either. What exactly is your problem? That your map's not on the list?
On May 22 2016 08:48 Xenotolerance wrote: This whole discussion gets 100% better if the judges release their data.
It really doesn't. There's not this magical wealth of data that will somehow break things wide-open and allow you to prove people wrong. In fact, there should never be anything in the background data that comes as a surprise, because the published results are merely a natural conclusion drawn from this data. Seeing it never helps as much as you want it to.
the data will show whether my criticism is accurate or not. right now it's speculation, and numbers will confirm or deny to at least some concrete extent. I'm not interested in proving anybody wrong, I'm interested in getting TLMC right
You're certainly not alone in thinking the pool is generally better, as I also think it is generally better. At the same time it still has its weaknesses, and I'm not alone in that idea either. good but needs improvement is an accurate way to put it imo
anyway yeah I'm salty about my map not being a finalist, I made that clear in the other thread. it doesn't make me wrong
On May 22 2016 08:48 Xenotolerance wrote: Well I'm suggesting this process for the shortlist, so hopefully they've already filtered out the bad maps.
In the model I described, there would be five finalists insta-picked. They'd already have been vetted by three or more rounds of cuts and discussion, so it definitely doesn't ignore discussion. And in any event, the model can easily adapt, and move the vetoes up a step, such that the first choice can be stopped if two or three or w/e of the other judges say No. That way it can avoid the pitfall outlined in your first counterargument. You can also trust the judges to choose wisely, which they did for the most part here it seems, but when averaged, the judge's choices get muddled, and the cream fails to rise to the top.
Plus, even if weak finalists don't invalidate the process, they definitely make obvious a need to reform it.
Also...
This whole discussion gets 100% better if the judges release their data.
publish the list, the ratings, the whole nine yards
please
really though why haven't you already?
The only thing your system does is promote maps that one judge thinks is "excellent" and the other judges think is "fair", over maps that the judges overall think are "good". I'm not sure why you would want that. It adds even more variance to the final results than the current system. Most systems try to control for outlying judges, and your system empowers them.
Right, that's the idea
it should be less like committee democracy which tends toward compromise
and more like curating an art gallery which tends toward bold statements
Any map that a single judge thinks is the #1 best in the pool should be a finalist. This should be the overall tendency at the final stage
compromise and averaging make for less-good maps passing in front of more-good maps, and I really can't believe any one of you out there actually prefers it that way. like, I get thinking my proposal wouldn't work, but thinking like 'ya it's worth the moderation if 5/15 finalists don't deserve to be there' I can't abide. I can't even
On May 22 2016 08:48 Xenotolerance wrote: Well I'm suggesting this process for the shortlist, so hopefully they've already filtered out the bad maps.
In the model I described, there would be five finalists insta-picked. They'd already have been vetted by three or more rounds of cuts and discussion, so it definitely doesn't ignore discussion. And in any event, the model can easily adapt, and move the vetoes up a step, such that the first choice can be stopped if two or three or w/e of the other judges say No. That way it can avoid the pitfall outlined in your first counterargument. You can also trust the judges to choose wisely, which they did for the most part here it seems, but when averaged, the judge's choices get muddled, and the cream fails to rise to the top.
Plus, even if weak finalists don't invalidate the process, they definitely make obvious a need to reform it.
Also...
This whole discussion gets 100% better if the judges release their data.
publish the list, the ratings, the whole nine yards
please
really though why haven't you already?
The only thing your system does is promote maps that one judge thinks is "excellent" and the other judges think is "fair", over maps that the judges overall think are "good". I'm not sure why you would want that. It adds even more variance to the final results than the current system. Most systems try to control for outlying judges, and your system empowers them.
Right, that's the idea
it should be less like committee democracy which tends toward compromise
and more like curating an art gallery which tends toward bold statements
Any map that a single judge thinks is the #1 best in the pool should be a finalist. This should be the overall tendency at the final stage
compromise and averaging make for less-good maps passing in front of more-good maps, and I really can't believe any one of you out there actually prefers it that way. like, I get thinking my proposal wouldn't work, but thinking like 'ya it's worth the moderation if 5/15 finalists don't deserve to be there' I can't abide. I can't even
The likelihood of a single judge spotting a gem that the others didn't, is much less than that of any single judge mis-evaluating a map. Maybe moderation will result in 5/15 unworthy finalist, but your strategy of leaning towards the whims of any single judge will result in 10/15 unworthy ones.
Consider the judging system of competitions. They usually have a panel of 5 judges, and they average the scores of the three with the middling scores.
On May 22 2016 09:27 Xenotolerance wrote: this ain't gymnastics
And what about judging SC2 maps is inherently different from judging in another context?
And let me ask you again, in this contest, what do you think is an example of a mediocre map being chosen over a great one? This is more or less the entire basis of your... let's call it an argument.
Frozen Zone got picked over those same maps, plus say, Frostbite
Gojira got picked for a category it wasn't submitted into (which, btw, makes me question WTH is up with that), over Dead Winter Reigns, and over any number of other maps in the other categories whose gold bases are used in a cool fashion
Namaste got picked... at all. sorry avex I love you but it's not your best work
New Gettysburg got picked in spite of glaring issues that I'm surprised Jacky put in the map. maybe the judges are banking on the iteration phase, but if that's the case, why wasn't a similar consideration made for other maps?
so that's my personal take on it. what I want the data for is to parse whether these results are because of averaging or if the judges just picked them. it's the difference between just disagreeing with the finalists and seeing a reduction in quality due to process. one of them is worth fighting over, one of them isn't
oh damn sunshine I didn't see your last comment before I wrote that.
That's pretty low. don't go there. it's downright petty and mean, and we're above that, or we should be
There's a pretty immense gulf between judging something like The Academy Awards, judging American Idol, judging Olympic trampoline, judging a supreme court case, and judging TLMC. You can't just slap a rating on something and call it a day if you're an art critic, and that's a core idea here. This isn't science, it's art*. It's not technical execution of specific concepts, it's creativity. It must be judged accordingly, and points will not satisfy
but again to be clear, I'm thinking about reducing the shortlist. I do of course understand the technical elements and the importance thereof. I think that should be used for the first couple rounds, and deemphasized at the end
Ziggurat - of course it's subjective. We shouldn't control for subjectivity, we should harness it.
* I guess more accurately it's design, argument still holds
On May 22 2016 09:41 Xenotolerance wrote: oh damn sunshine I didn't see your last comment before I wrote that.
That's pretty low. don't go there. it's downright petty and mean, and we're above that, or we should be
There's a pretty immense gulf between judging something like The Academy Awards, judging American Idol, judging Olympic trampoline, judging a supreme court case, and judging TLMC. You can't just slap a rating on something and call it a day if you're an art critic, and that's a core idea here. This isn't science, it's art*. It's not technical execution of specific concepts, it's creativity. It must be judged accordingly, and points will not satisfy
but again to be clear, I'm thinking about reducing the shortlist. I do of course understand the technical elements and the importance thereof. I think that should be used for the first couple rounds, and deemphasized at the end
Ziggurat - of course it's subjective. We shouldn't control for subjectivity, we should harness it.
* I guess more accurately it's design, argument still holds
Actually, the only thing that's any different would be a supreme court case, since proceedings are steeped in established laws and precedents, even then it's open to the judge's discretion where there is no precedent. There's a layer of subjectivity in all manner of judgement, that's why you have judges in the first place.
Fans of the Academy Awards, figure skating, or gymnastic would certainly argue that it's an art too. Much like TLMC there's both creativity and technical execution necessary. For example in gymnastic they are scored for difficulty, execution, composition and artistry. So I fail to see the difference there.
As for your concerns about the maps, that's a difference in opinion between you and the judges, not a concern with the system.
On May 22 2016 09:54 ZigguratOfUr wrote: For example in gymnastic they are scored for difficulty, execution, composition and artistry. So I fail to see the difference there.
That's why I cited trampoline specifically, which doesn't have composition nor artistry in its judging system. it's basically just technical
difficulty, execution, flight time
anyway boys you're getting me on tilt, time to quit. hope the bystanders learned something
On May 22 2016 09:54 Xenotolerance wrote: I don't see how that's a counterargument
I meant that for sunshine, but it applies to both of you
Because if you're subjectively upset with the subjective decision of a group of judges, that does not necessarily call for reform in the judging process. Basic public policy, the thing that pleases the largest group to the largest extent invariably still displeases someone. That doesn't mean you pick something that displeases a larger group, just to placate that small group of people.
Xeno I get it, you're mad your map didn't make it. Let's leave that in the other thread. I'm confident that the top maps submitted are in the top 15 (subject to category limits, of course).
With regard to the process, the only issue I have with it is that we were tied to 15 maps (my rankings only had a clear top 11, or 12 with a change; one of which wasn't in the top 15 which is understandable due to concept overlap).
On May 22 2016 09:39 Xenotolerance wrote: and about cream of the crop
Eris got picked over Uvantak's three other maps
None of his other maps made the short list. A reformed method of judging wouldn't change anything here.
Frozen Zone got picked over those same maps, plus say, Frostbite
Frozen Zone scored way better than Frostbite in the macro category. Not even close
Gojira got picked for a category it wasn't submitted into (which, btw, makes me question WTH is up with that), over Dead Winter Reigns, and over any number of other maps in the other categories whose gold bases are used in a cool fashion
I already explained why Gojira was picked for a different category... Incidentally Gojira was the highest scoring map not only among Gold maps and Macro maps, but among ALL finalists. It was also many judges' favorite map. DWR scored one of the worst.
Namaste got picked... at all. sorry avex I love you but it's not your best work
Yes, it was a weaker map in an extremely weak category as I've mentioned many times. DWR was weaker as determined b the judges.
New Gettysburg got picked in spite of glaring issues that I'm surprised Jacky put in the map. maybe the judges are banking on the iteration phase, but if that's the case, why wasn't a similar consideration made for other maps?
People really liked New Gettysburg. All maps were picked with the idea that there might be changes.
On May 22 2016 09:54 Xenotolerance wrote: I don't see how that's a counterargument
I meant that for sunshine, but it applies to both of you
Because if you're subjectively upset with the subjective decision of a group of judges, that does not necessarily call for reform in the judging process. Basic public policy, the thing that pleases the largest group to the largest extent invariably still displeases someone. That doesn't mean you pick something that displeases a larger group, just to placate that small group of people.
I think one part of Xeno's original argument is mostly reasonable: that the top maps as given by the average of the judge's scores will be less "bold" than the top picks of any individual judge. I think that this is important because a part of all mapmaking (in general) and TLMC Judging (in particular) is cultivating a vision for the future of the game and for the future of the map pool - especially now, I think, as Blizzard seems to have acquired the (extremely laudable) goal of widening the range of what an "acceptable ladder map" looks like (what with their recent focus on "experimental" maps). An individual judge might have a strong vision that becomes diluted when everyone's opinions are "averaged out".
A lot of this is corrected for, of course, by healthy communication, debate and discussion among the judges - which, judging from Monk's description of the process, seems to have happened. I'm happy with how this TLMC went (though, duh, I am biased because one of my maps is a finalist). There were a ton of great maps submitted (just like every TLMC) and it sure seems like they had to make some hard choices.
One of the things I really liked about this TLMC is that the submissions asked for a short description of the map and for a justification for the categorization of the map - allowing us to communicate important information about the map.
On May 22 2016 11:04 Plexa wrote: Xeno I get it, you're mad your map didn't make it. Let's leave that in the other thread.
With regard to the process, the only issue I have with it is that we were tied to 15 maps (my rankings only had a clear top 11, or 12 with a change; one of which wasn't in the top 15 which is understandable due to concept overlap).
On May 22 2016 11:13 Namrufus wrote: I think one part of Xeno's original argument is mostly reasonable: that the top maps as given by the average of the judge's scores will be less "bold" than the top picks of any individual judge.
This isn't part of it, it's my entire argument. The salt and the rest just came up from arguing with peeps who wanted to tear me down because they thought I was just mad, or some other reason maybe
Like I said, if it's only that I disagree with the judges, it's not worth fighting about.
If it's that the point system distorts the results, it is worth fighting about. The judges should consider fairly if it does, and move forward according to their discretion. That's all I'm pushing for.
You've all got me wrong, thinking this is just because I'm mad about not placing, making sure to point out that my map scored super bad like that's related to the argument, less than cordial I think.
Obviously I disagree with some of the choices and process, but I've been shouted way way down, and it's turning vile, so I'm done with the subject, you can stop slinging shit now.
On May 22 2016 11:13 Namrufus wrote: I think one part of Xeno's original argument is mostly reasonable: that the top maps as given by the average of the judge's scores will be less "bold" than the top picks of any individual judge.
I just re-read the thread, and I'd like to retract the accusation of shit-slinging. Pretty sure the worst thing that anyone suggested was that I'm arguing because I'm mad, which is false, but isn't even that harsh of a thing to say. So I'm retracting that, you're all cool to me
Also I just want to make sure this gets seen at this stage, I wrote this a few pages ago:
and let me be clear, I don't think the judges did anything wrong, so it's not a criticism of you as people or judges or anything like that. I just think if the same judges made the same evaluations in a different process, they'd end up with a stronger pool of finalists
On May 22 2016 12:31 Youngrustler wrote: Hey just wondering if it is possible for the people that didn't make the cut could see what the feedback from the judges was on the map?
There is a thread on that in the sc2map forum on TL. Post your map and ask there.
The one thing I agree with Xeno is I'd love to see the Google doc with the judge information. Hell, go ahead and blur out / delete all the judges name, I'd just love to see who voted what score for what map and how far along different maps got.
On May 23 2016 01:02 RCCar wrote: What a shame non of the maps I liked actually made it I really liked Zerus, Erebus, and Frostbite. Is there anyone who knows why they didn't?
On May 23 2016 01:02 RCCar wrote: What a shame non of the maps I liked actually made it I really liked Zerus, Erebus, and Frostbite. Is there anyone who knows why they didn't?
The latter were really close, but yeah you need to check out the thread linked in the above post.
On May 22 2016 22:55 Barrin wrote: The risk of a visionary judge being diluted does not outweigh the risk of a poor judge having too much say. That's some serious self-serving bias.
it's not self-serving, it's obvious by now my self wouldn't be served by any judging process. at this point I'm disagreeing with the principle of averaging being better than not, rather than disagreeing with the judging process. I think this is off topic so I'll keep it chill
the wisdom of crowds is a great thing. the judge team may or may not meet the listed four requirements for a wise crowd. I lean toward not, and from the outside it looks like they leaned into one of the failures of crowd decision making, that being too much communication. in other words I just don't think wise crowd theory applies here. it still seems apparent to me that strong individual choices would produce good results.
interesting bit from the article:
In the online article Digital Maoism, Lanier argues that the collective is more likely to be smart only when
1. it isn't defining its own questions
2. the goodness of an answer can be evaluated by a simple result (such as a single numeric value), and
3. the information system which informs the collective is filtered by a quality control mechanism that relies on individuals to a high degree.
Lanier argues that only under those circumstances can a collective be smarter than a person. If any of these conditions are broken, the collective becomes unreliable or worse.
interpretations will vary but I think only #3 applied to this judging process. hence, if it's crowd theory, the judge collective was 'unreliable or worse.' I don't think that was the case, so the theory doesn't fit the situation here. it seems like the judging process was more like the Delphi method with rounds of refined answers, but without anonymity, nor repeated revisions at each stage, and with too much communication to really fit the model. good read though, as you said, and I thank you for it
After reading through a bunch of the judging process discussion here, as someone who never created and submitted a map to the TLMC (until this one) primarily because the judging process was so unclear/controversial, I must say that it is extremely disappointing to see that a map scored very high and made it to this stage of judging despite the fact that it doesn't fit into its submitted category and another map clearly made it to this point based on aesthetics alone, not design.
It would also be incredibly useful, as many others have been asking, if every mapmaker could get messaged with, at the very least, the scores of our own maps once that process is finished. Seeing maps that scream out as being in the completely wrong category, nearly the exact same first three bases being copied from another map, or the same mapmaker's names showing up over and over in the finals doesn't really help the community imo. Getting scores for the maps we submitted or some other quick and simple feedback would absolutely encourage everyone who participated to continue to do so in the future.
That being said, I love seeing new map designs come to the ladder and high profile tournaments and also ways for people who have never touched the SC2 Editor to get turned on to mapmaking. The TLMCs and the BTTV tournament are pretty fantastic for all of that and some of the maps here really look great.
On May 23 2016 07:26 blunderfulguy wrote: After reading through a bunch of the judging process discussion here, as someone who never created and submitted a map to the TLMC (until this one) primarily because the judging process was so unclear/controversial, I must say that it is extremely disappointing to see that a map scored very high and made it to this stage of judging despite the fact that it doesn't fit into its submitted category and another map clearly made it to this point based on aesthetics alone, not design.
It would also be incredibly useful, as many others have been asking, if every mapmaker could get messaged with, at the very least, the scores of our own maps once that process is finished. Seeing maps that scream out as being in the completely wrong category, nearly the exact same first three bases being copied from another map, or the same mapmaker's names showing up over and over in the finals doesn't really help the community imo. Getting scores for the maps we submitted or some other quick and simple feedback would absolutely encourage everyone who participated to continue to do so in the future.
That being said, I love seeing new map designs come to the ladder and high profile tournaments and also ways for people who have never touched the SC2 Editor to get turned on to mapmaking. The TLMCs and the BTTV tournament are pretty fantastic for all of that and some of the maps here really look great.
The judging process is fully explained here. You can also request feedback on your map in the same thread. We simply do not have the time to give all 130 maps feedback.
The judging process as a whole is not actually very controversial; there are just is just a vocal minority arguing against the current system.
No map "scored very high and made it to this stage of judging despite the fact that it doesn't fit into its submitted category". No map made it purely based on aesthetics. Only one mapmaker had more than one finalist submission this TLMC. The reason the same mappers show up again and again over multiple TLMCs is that they're the most skilled and experienced mappers.
On May 23 2016 07:26 blunderfulguy wrote: After reading through a bunch of the judging process discussion here, as someone who never created and submitted a map to the TLMC (until this one) primarily because the judging process was so unclear/controversial, I must say that it is extremely disappointing to see that a map scored very high and made it to this stage of judging despite the fact that it doesn't fit into its submitted category and another map clearly made it to this point based on aesthetics alone, not design.
It would also be incredibly useful, as many others have been asking, if every mapmaker could get messaged with, at the very least, the scores of our own maps once that process is finished. Seeing maps that scream out as being in the completely wrong category, nearly the exact same first three bases being copied from another map, or the same mapmaker's names showing up over and over in the finals doesn't really help the community imo. Getting scores for the maps we submitted or some other quick and simple feedback would absolutely encourage everyone who participated to continue to do so in the future.
That being said, I love seeing new map designs come to the ladder and high profile tournaments and also ways for people who have never touched the SC2 Editor to get turned on to mapmaking. The TLMCs and the BTTV tournament are pretty fantastic for all of that and some of the maps here really look great.
The judging process is fully explained here. You can also request feedback on your map in the same thread. We simply do not have the time to give all 130 maps feedback.
Telling us we can ask on the forums about any specifics disregards those who are too busy to have long discussions on the forums due to work and so on, but of course I understand that there is a small team on your end providing feedback, etc. It would be fantastic to get more info throughout the judging process in the future, fingers crossed.
On May 23 2016 07:51 monk wrote:The judging process as a whole is not actually very controversial; there are just is just a vocal minority arguing against the current system.
"The judging process is not actually very controversial" to you perhaps. However, to others, it has previously been or is currently a bit hazy. "Using this slightly different system would only change one of the final maps" to me is "someone may have gotten screwed out of hundreds of dollars", which is unsettling. Without the vocal minority this discussion would never happen and the vocal minority here is a part of the "wisdom of crowds" mentioned above. Imo the judging system is fine but not perfect, and this talk keeps us assured of you thinking about everyone in the whole process and that we can trust the judges decisions. "Just a vocal minority" is just pretty darn important in any community.
On May 23 2016 07:51 monk wrote:No map "scored very high and made it to this stage of judging despite the fact that it doesn't fit into its submitted category". No map made it purely based on aesthetics.
What I've read around here is "I don't see why X map made it in Y category" or "X map should be in Y cat." and the entire rush map cat. clearly meant something different to the judges than the creators and it isn't a great thing. I also see "X map which scored high in part because it looks pretty doesn't feel as good from a gameplay design p.o.v. as other maps" and it feels wrong to me. I look forward to seeing the map categories and better examples in the next contest, having a better description of the judging/scoring shown with the next contest could help with a lot.
On May 23 2016 07:51 monk wrote:Only one mapmaker had more than one finalist submission this TLMC. The reason the same mappers show up again and again over multiple TLMCs is that they're the most skilled and experienced mappers.
Again, not providing a small bit of useful info like the scores indirectly prevents some people from better understanding the map design TL and Blizzard are looking for and, to keep it simple, indirectly makes the rich get richer. We should want more people reaching that level of map design instead of being careless and potentially only seeing the same people/groups win repeatedly. I think I can say for a lot of people we want the judges and community to care about the contest, all contestants, and the map pool being as great as possible
Designing for this contest was great, but after the finalists were announced there were some deep sighs. I'm glad I decided to stop sweating over finishing my "rush" map to focus on my "macro" map, but if I knew about the importance of a good color scheme I would have worked in a very different way for this. It would be nice to not feel that way next time and I feel like I have to point that out as a newcomer since there aren't already hundreds of people talking about it.
Even with all that nitty gritty gunk said, I am stoked for the Map Test Tournament!!! I'm out, enough walls of text to last me (and probably everyone else, my bad) quite a while. Glhf everyone!
On May 23 2016 07:26 blunderfulguy wrote: After reading through a bunch of the judging process discussion here, as someone who never created and submitted a map to the TLMC (until this one) primarily because the judging process was so unclear/controversial, I must say that it is extremely disappointing to see that a map scored very high and made it to this stage of judging despite the fact that it doesn't fit into its submitted category and another map clearly made it to this point based on aesthetics alone, not design.
It would also be incredibly useful, as many others have been asking, if every mapmaker could get messaged with, at the very least, the scores of our own maps once that process is finished. Seeing maps that scream out as being in the completely wrong category, nearly the exact same first three bases being copied from another map, or the same mapmaker's names showing up over and over in the finals doesn't really help the community imo. Getting scores for the maps we submitted or some other quick and simple feedback would absolutely encourage everyone who participated to continue to do so in the future.
That being said, I love seeing new map designs come to the ladder and high profile tournaments and also ways for people who have never touched the SC2 Editor to get turned on to mapmaking. The TLMCs and the BTTV tournament are pretty fantastic for all of that and some of the maps here really look great.
The judging process is fully explained here. You can also request feedback on your map in the same thread. We simply do not have the time to give all 130 maps feedback.
Telling us we can ask on the forums about any specifics disregards those who are too busy to have long discussions on the forums due to work and so on, but of course I understand that there is a small team on your end providing feedback, etc. It would be fantastic to get more info throughout the judging process in the future, fingers crossed.
It takes 30s at most to ask for feedback on your map. If you had the time to enter the contest, you definitely have enough time to ask a question on the forum and have monk respond to it. You might not like what the judges thought, but at least you'll get an idea of what they're thinking.
On May 23 2016 07:51 monk wrote:The judging process as a whole is not actually very controversial; there are just is just a vocal minority arguing against the current system.
"The judging process is not actually very controversial" to you perhaps. However, to others, it has previously been or is currently a bit hazy. "Using this slightly different system would only change one of the final maps" to me is "someone may have gotten screwed out of hundreds of dollars", which is unsettling. Without the vocal minority this discussion would never happen and the vocal minority here is a part of the "wisdom of crowds" mentioned above. Imo the judging system is fine but not perfect, and this talk keeps us assured of you thinking about everyone in the whole process and that we can trust the judges decisions. "Just a vocal minority" is just pretty darn important in any community.
On May 23 2016 07:51 monk wrote:No map "scored very high and made it to this stage of judging despite the fact that it doesn't fit into its submitted category". No map made it purely based on aesthetics.
What I've read around here is "I don't see why X map made it in Y category" or "X map should be in Y cat." and the entire rush map cat. clearly meant something different to the judges than the creators and it isn't a great thing. I also see "X map which scored high in part because it looks pretty doesn't feel as good from a gameplay design p.o.v. as other maps" and it feels wrong to me. I look forward to seeing the map categories and better examples in the next contest, having a better description of the judging/scoring shown with the next contest could help with a lot.
So three things (a) This was the first time doing cateogories, there will be bumps along the way in comprehension from all parties. Some would argue that its better than previous seasons where no direction at all was given. (b) The vast majority of maps were submitted into the correct category or categories. But even then, if we felt a map was better placed elsewhere it got fair consideration in that cateogry. (e.g. Gojira was scored as a macro map and separately as gold map and it did much better in the gold category than macro). (c) Aesthetics are a part of map making, like it or hate it. The role it plays in judging is more of a tiebreaker than anything else. No map is selected on aesthetics alone.
On May 23 2016 07:51 monk wrote:Only one mapmaker had more than one finalist submission this TLMC. The reason the same mappers show up again and again over multiple TLMCs is that they're the most skilled and experienced mappers.
Again, not providing a small bit of useful info like the scores indirectly prevents some people from better understanding the map design TL and Blizzard are looking for and, to keep it simple, indirectly makes the rich get richer. We should want more people reaching that level of map design instead of being careless and potentially only seeing the same people/groups win repeatedly. I think I can say for a lot of people we want the judges and community to care about the contest, all contestants, and the map pool being as great as possible
Maps don't get a numerical score until the last round of judging. Up until that points it's a yes or a no (with discussion). These discussions take place mostly on skype (or equivalent) and it would be inappropriate to copy and paste a skype chat. There were over 100 maps submitted to this contest, it would be impractical for us to write a paragraph explaining why each of these 100+ maps didn't make it. Like even with conservative estimates of 50 words/map thats 5000 words. That's why we elect for people to opt into feedback; we get maybe 20 maps that people want feedback on and thats much more manageable (and still a crapload better than many real world contests that are similar).
It's also worth pointing out that the following are first time finalists; Meavis, Kycsyhuszar, Newsunshine (at least in 1v1), Avex, Namrufus, th0t. Fatam. Thats a pretty significant proportion of first time finalists; it's definitely not the case that its just one group of mappers with a monopoly over TLMC.
Nice resource that established some geyser rules that isn't well enough known it seems. Watching some of the tourney, I noticed some of the maps have some geysers that are obviously inefficient. If one of your finalist maps has diagonal geysers you should probably fix that up.
I haven’t watched all the games of the map test tournament yet (I haven’t seen all of the Ro8 games or any of the semis), so I might add to this later on once I’ve watched the VODs.
ANNIHILATION STATION- The most standard of the maps. In the tournament runbys performed strongly on this map, which made trying to secure 4 bases slightly more difficult than the average LotV map. I think this is closer to a middle-of-the-road map than a macro map. There’s no large weaknesses to it except that it doesn’t really stand out.
APOTHEOSIS- I liked the map when I first saw it and after seeing games on it I still like it. Three base pushes where you use the gold base and the choke near the rocks as staging point to assault the other bases proved to be very strong in the tournament especially from terran (for example uThermal vs Nerchio). Zergs might not like the map as much because of this.
FROZEN ZONE- I initially though the map was too big, and too “messy” and the games have reinforced that belief. The play around the middle and watchtower proved to be pretty good, but not good enough to compensate for the problems inherent to its size. Maybe I’m biased due to the games in the tournament mostly being in the longer spawn positions, but still not a fan at all.
GALACTIC PROCESS- This is the map that overperformed the most for me. I initially didn’t like the aesthetics, or the natural, and everything else was just okay. After seeing the games however everything turned out to be much better than I thought before (even the aesthetics). Sure the side passages proved mostly useless, but the middle of the map was impressively dynamic. I’m extremely impressed with the positioning of the ramps, rocks, watchtowers, and LOS blocker. It might not be especially creative or ground-breaking map but it plays extremely well which is the most important thing. Proxy reaper builds were really strong on it, which is kinda unfortunate, but not to a map-breaking extent. Also the constant comments about Cloud Kingdom from everyone are annoying.
KORHAL KILLZONE- Taking a third is really difficult on this map, which I guess was more or less expected from a map in the “Rush” category. Additionally two base pushes that abuse how close the natural minerals are to the edge of the base (like MaSa did against Neeb) seem pretty strong. The extremely open third and even more open fourth probably has some balance-concerns associated with it. Overall only an okay-ish map, but the other “Rush” maps have disappointed me even more, so idk maybe this category just isn’t that great.
NAMASTE- All the chokes around the top of the map are massively abusable by siege tank and pushes and the like. From the first game seen on this map (where beastyqt abused tanks to siege Lambo’s gold) to the last (where uThermal abused the narrow choke between the main/natural/top centre base) it’s shown itself problematic balance-wise. The bottom of the map is bad too, overly spacious, but since nothing ever happened in the bottom of the map (which is pretty common from horizontally symmetric maps. Even Habitation Station had that problem) I can’t tell for sure how it would play out. I really dislike this map (though it’s pretty). Also the tileset is problematic since it makes liberator circles harder to see, and the way the tiles are visible through the creep isn’t great visibility-wise either.
PALADINO TERMINAL- The double opening to the natural proved to be as awkward as everyone expected it to be. Lots of runbys as a result. Also the third-base gas is harassable by marines standing on the high ground which isn’t ideal. I dislike the third and fourth which just have one opening at the front, and think the version Namrufus posted in his thread is marginally better. All the features on the map just weren’t really used (in the games I saw no one broke down any of the rocks, or tried to block the middle path, and use of the main base LOS blockers was minimal) by the pros, which isn’t good. The games themselves on this map turned out to be surprisingly decent though despite all of its flaws.
SHIVA- The thirds on this map are really really close, and have no terrain but ramps separating them. Also they happen to be very vulnerable due to the double-edge collapsible rocks which seem to be FotM right now. As such the games that didn’t end due to weird rushes (which was very common on this map, though I think that was more bad luck rather than any characteristic of the map itself) end with a push-or-counterpush between the thirds. Basically pushes towards the third are so strong that someone will go for it, and if the push fails the distances are so short the other player is almost obligated to counterpush until the games end. I’m not completely against that, but it might make the games really one-dimensional in the long run. Maybe it would be better if the thirds were slightly more defensible.
AIUR PLATEAU- This map is a personal favourite of mine due to how novel and brilliant the design is, and how mind-bending the gameplay on it. It’s sad that we only got to see a few games on it, but the games that we did see were mostly really good. Additionally they were all mirrors (except for the Nerchio vs uThermal game which ended abruptly due to Nerchio misplacing his lings) which gives very little inkling as to the balance of this map even if the players knew how to play on it. The reasons this map won’t reach ladder are all the reasons I like it for.
DASAN STATION- This map too is very novel, but also happens to be very broken. We had maybe two reasonable games on this map. You can siege the main ramp from across the doodads, and can siege the main gas geyser from the gold natural. The play around the back of the gold base was kinda cool, but overall this map is clearly a failure.
ERIS- I’m interested in knowing why the pros were so reluctant to play on this map. The games seen on this map weren’t bad (the ZvZ between Bly and Scarlett was especially good). I don’t have much to say about this map except that the 3 bases in the top right and bottom left seem like an afterthought to the map.
NEW GETTYSBURG- Another map that overperformed compared to my expectations (which were admittedly really pessimistic about it). There were many good games on this map, and most of them had nothing to do with the island bases. The ramp and the top of the map were both very creatively used by the players. The air blockers didn’t do much in the matches I saw except repeatedly trap stray air units—the map is better off without them. I’m not convinced the map is completely balanced, but that’s something that we’ll have to see if the map makes.
CALDEUM PLATEAU- This map felt pretty gimmicky. The collapsible rocks and the passageway leading to the natural felt a bit weird. Shiva and Apotheosis implemented the double-edged collapsible rocks better. The pocket vulnerable was very vulnerable to harass or pushing, and the golds didn’t have a core role on this map (though Nerchio and Snute did take it early on occasion). The fact that you can see the top of the ramp from across the passageway is problematic (though it might have been fixed).
FLAME JUGGLER- I haven’t seen most of the games on this map and will reserve my opinion until I’ve seen more of them. The games I did see didn’t leave a very strong impression either way. Much like the other nominees in the gold base category it’s “interesting high yield use” is suspect. I saw Nerchio take the gold once on it I guess.
GOJIRA GREENHOUSE- It’s kinda odd that this map is in the gold base category, but whatever suits Blizzard I guess. I don’t think the mineral wall feature is particularly well implemented on this map though. There would not have been the slightest difference in any of the games if the mineral wall at the pocket natural was replaced with an actual wall. The ones on the right and left actually turned out to be relevant once or twice with harassment from the other side of the minerals. Mineral walls should only be used if it’s a base that you want open to harass from behind. I wouldn’t mind the mineral wall at the natural if you could actually place a town hall next to them. The sight blockers behind the pocket natural were kinda buggy, and I think the map would be better without them entirely. Overall however the map turned out to be a pretty good macro map. Also Nerchio mentioned one of the gases (at the fourth I think) was broken during the final series, so I hope Avex is aware of it.
If I had to rank the maps as they currently are (with no regard for category) I’d rank them:
1. Aiur Plateau 2. Apotheosis 3. Galactic Process 4. New Gettysburg 5. Gojira Greenhouse 6. Annihilation Station 7. Korhal Killzone 8. Flame Juggler?? 9. Shiva 10. Eris?? 11. Paladino Terminal 12. Caldeum Plateau 13. Frozen Zone 14. Namaste 15. Dasan Station
I’m really uncertain as to the internal ordering of ranks 6-12, and placing Aiur Plateau as number 1 is just me being extremely biased towards how beautiful its design is (if I was being more objective it’s probably rank 6 or something)
I think I am the only person who absolutely hates Gojira Greenhouse. + Show Spoiler +
As someone said the mineral wall near the nat could literally be a normal wall of doodads or w/e and accomplish the same thing. I strongly feel that Zerg is in a terrible spot on this map. For a short while they will nydus or ovie drop with some success but once people figure out to look for that stuff I think Z winrate will be terrible.
But I seem to like Caldeum a lot more than other people, so I guess the universe balances out :-P I think there's a lot of strategic possibility in Caldeum. There are 1 or 2 possibly iffy abusable tank spots and maybe the in-base nat should only be 1 unbuildable rock instead of 2 (or some other variation on the idea), but overall I really like the map. I think a medium ramp added to the 3/9 bases (and deleting the 2/8 gold bases beneath to make room, as they will very very rarely be taken) could really alleviate the potential turtle problems the map has without changing the map very much. Why is that base so easy anyway?
I really wanted to continue to hate New Gettysburg for the use of buggy No Fly Zones (NFZs) (+ Show Spoiler +
we've known they're broken for years, we've tried to make them work but they don't. Yet someone uses them and everyone acts like NFZs are something new that no one has thought of before. Believe me, if the SC2 engine supported NFZs properly, mapmakers would have been having a field day with them for years now
), and the fact that the layout at a glance is not terribly inspiring, but take out the NFZs and I think the map is pretty good. It's a really nice, simple variation / mix on the Ulrena / Scrap Station concept and it seems to produce good games. I'll admit to being wrong on this one (although I was right about the NFZs from the beginning :-P).
I rather liked Korhal Killzone too. That neeb vs. nerchio game was siiiick. Nerchio was just about to pincher neeb's forward third from both sides with an incredibly epic flank when neeb sent a small attack to nerchio's third? which meant nerchio had to send one of the pinching armies home. Lots of back and forth; both players were on a knife's edge at various points. Very fun game I thought.
I wish we saw more of Eris, hard to know anything substantial about that map still.
Just random comments spurred by what people have been saying on this page, those aren't necessarily my favorite maps. Lots of good maps overall, lots to like. Most of the maps in the macro category seemed to work well. You could probably pick randomly from the list and come out with a good pool.
Strongly agree with most of ZigguratOfUr's oppinions on maps, good stuff!
Paladino Terminal: Just add destructible rocks in one of the entrances to the nat and place some doodad so the gas at the third can't be killed by marines in the high ground?
The rush maps feel really weak in general, it was just a difficult category. At least Paladino Terminal might work better with these minimal changes I guess.
Shiva: Could just make the whole center part of the map symmetrical so you can also move one of the naturals to the other side (diagonal symmetry?). That way the thirds would not face each other, which is the big issue. Big changes I know.
Caldeum Plateau: Move/protect somehow the pocket natural so it's not so easy to harass? I actually like this map.
New Gettysburg: Lose the air blockers please? They looked cool but after watching the games they are just awkward. Love this map.
Gojira Greenhouse: Again, could lose the sight blockers behind the pocket nat.
My ranking atm:
1. Galactic Process 2. Apotheosis 3. Aiur Plateau 4. New Gettysburg 5. Annihilation Station 6. Gojira Greenhouse 7. Caldeum Plateau 8. Paladino Terminal 9. Flame Juggler 10. Shiva 11. Eris 12. Korhal Killzone 13. Frozen Zone 14. Namaste 15. Dasan Station
I took some time to rewatch some maps to get better impressions. Shoutout to Reddit user Utilael for sorting them out in a convenient way: + Show Spoiler +
Macro maps – this category is filled with strong maps and I like all of them, so any criticism here is a bit of nitpicking.
Annihilation Station – I like the vanilla feel of it, no gold mines, no watchtowers, no backdoors. I want to have one such map in a ladder pool where you can just play without gimmicks to the best of your abilities. Layout is really solid. Centre is the weak part of the map. Maybe making ramps smaller and pathway with sight blockers bigger could promote a more interesting dynamic of contention. And there was a bug when some doodads would cover air units partially. Apotheosis – unusual proportions do promote macro play. I love how the gold is positioned. Concerns that bridges would result in splitting the map seem unfounded. This map captured the idea of “macroness” the best from all contestants. Frozen Zone – maybe it’s 2-in-1 or really huge size but I can’t put a finger of how this map plays out, what are its main ideas, what are the main features of layout. It do seem to promote multipronged attacks and scrappy fights, which is a good thing. Galactic Process – the 3 base layout is really good on this map. However, besides that something seems wrong. The ideas (like border passage) are cool in theory but don’t glue into a solid map. Maybe some rework of corners could help.
Rush maps – I dislike the idea of a “rush map” in general: generally a map shouldn’t force you into a certain playstyle. Perhaps I’m biased to these maps because of it.
Korhal Killzone – this is probably my second least liked map. All options of third are just begging to be harassed in one way or another. It feels crowded – you are always near your opponent, a huge part of map is taken by unpathable elements. After breaking the rocks rush distance becomes intolerable. Namaste – this map suffers from “Ulrena layout”: close spawns + short rush distance makes half of a map useless. I’m not sure it’s salvageable. There are some nice features such as positions of golds but they can’t overcome initial problems. Paladino Terminal – this map has a weird base layout but it works in a good way enhancing gameplay. This is probably my favorite in this category. Why is it so dark though when you’re at least trying to make a contrast? Shiva – the preferable 3rds are too close and losing this base is losing the game. The alternative 3rds are too far away. Golds are useless. If you expand in different directions, it promotes circle syndrome. You can see I’m not a fan but pros liked it for whatever reason.
New maps – these category is a huge success. All the maps here are pushing the usual limits in a good way. I can see that none of them make the pool but making such maps is necessary and I would like to thank all mapmakers for trying.
Aiur Plateau – this map has a sick layout – it’s crazy but enjoyable. My main gripe is after you break all the rocks, the centre feels really bland. I’m afraid it’s closer to Korhal Carnage Knockout on the KCK to Moonlight Madness scale – meaning very few would play it both on ladder and in tournaments. Dasan Station – this map is a huge success. It gives that early WoL gameplay in LotV. If you’re set on making a rush map, it should be like this, where rush is not a choice but a necessity for BOTH sides. I’m not sure if it’s balanced but it is fun. Eris – this map wins “unusual layout” contest. I loved uThermal’s greed build, I loved how Scralett vs Bly played out due to expansion pattern. Corners may need some rework but I’m not sure what can make it better. Pros seemed to avoid it though which is a matter of concern. New Gettysburg – this map has achieved a great balance of everything. I would call it my favorite map in this contest BUT until Blizzard introduces air pathing, it’s a no-go. I hope this tournament would finally show them that air blockers are great and that coding air pathing is worth it. Come on, you already have everything for it; it can’t be that hard.
Gold maps – I feel this is a weak category because the initial conditions for it were poor. I hope there isn’t a requirement to take one of the maps from each category the pool – but I think there are arguments for considering to taking the maps on their merit. Let’s see how it plays out.
Caldeum Plateau – I’m afraid this map would favor Zerg taking gold as a natural. I’m also not sure about layout after the initial 4 bases. I think it captures the idea of “goldness” the best though and I would like to commend the author for trying to push the boundaries of standards. Flame Juggler – this is probably my favorite map in this category. I like the double main and I like gold placement. Top right corner seems like an afterthought though. Gojira Greenhouse – this is my least liked map in the whole contest. Gold walls are useless. Layout is unreasonably choky and less interesting than in any of macro maps. The only interesting thing is that gold mineral lines can be harassed through mineral wall but it’s not enough.
Decades ago, Valoril, a suburb of Augustgrad, the Capital City of Korhal was known as the one of the most peaceful places to visit. Terran all over the galaxy would vacation in this small city for relaxation, peace & tranquility. Wars waged on but the people of Valoril carried on life without any fear. All your problems, your anger, your worries, they seemed to fade away into non existence.
__________
Soon though, Augustgrad fell to the zerg, and with that, so did Valoril. The care-free lifestyle of those who lived and visited Valoril took a turn for the worse. Chaos took to the streets, no longer was there peace, but fear and destruction.
__________
Nobody saw it coming. How quickly a city of such peace can turn against each other. The loot, the torture, the killing. The city was abandoned. It was now just another afterthought to the wars waging through out the galaxy...
__________
Looking back at it all...It's crazy. How beautiful the city was. How peaceful it was. How it made all your problems go away.
__________
Now, take a deep breath and erase those memories you had in your head. That peace, that happiness, that tranquility...ignore it...
__________
Today we not only fight for glory, for honor, for fame, but we fight to reclaim that state of tranquility. Valoril will once again become the city where all our fears can fade away! Our problems disappear! Our dreams come true! Hold your arms up high my brethren, because today, the dominion takes back what was stolen from us!
__________
Today, blood will be shed!
Today, lives will be lost!
But most importantly...
Today, VALORIL REVIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________
__________
And so the story is told...will the zerg keep control of their conquered lands? Will a new player, in the protoss replace the zerg and rule these tranquil lands? Or will the Dominion, finally reclaim their Valoril? Whatever happens next...could be the final battle...in this...
Thanks to Basetrade TV for casting... Utilael for his awesome reddit post & youtube links... Neeb, MaSa, MaNa, Bunny, uThermal, Beastyqt, Nerchio & Lillekanin for playing my map... and all you die hard starcraft 2 fans for supporting us all!
Decades ago, Valoril, a suburb of Augustgrad, the Capital City of Korhal was known as the one of the most peaceful places to visit. Terran all over the galaxy would vacation in this small city for relaxation, peace & tranquility. Wars waged on but the people of Valoril carried on life without any fear. All your problems, your anger, your worries, they seemed to fade away into non existence.
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Soon though, Augustgrad fell to the zerg, and with that, so did Valoril. The care-free lifestyle of those who lived and visited Valoril took a turn for the worse. Chaos took to the streets, no longer was there peace, but fear and destruction.
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Nobody saw it coming. How quickly a city of such peace can turn against each other. The loot, the torture, the killing. The city was abandoned. It was now just another afterthought to the wars waging through out the galaxy...
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Looking back at it all...It's crazy. How beautiful the city was. How peaceful it was. How it made all your problems go away.
__________
Now, take a deep breath and erase those memories you had in your head. That peace, that happiness, that tranquility...ignore it...
__________
Today we not only fight for glory, for honor, for fame, but we fight to reclaim that state of tranquility. Valoril will once again become the city where all our fears can fade away! Our problems disappear! Our dreams come true! Hold your arms up high my brethren, because today, the dominion takes back what was stolen from us!
__________
Today, blood will be shed!
Today, lives will be lost!
But most importantly...
Today, VALORIL REVIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________
__________
And so the story is told...will the zerg keep control of their conquered lands? Will a new player, in the protoss replace the zerg and rule these tranquil lands? Or will the Dominion, finally reclaim their Valoril? Whatever happens next...could be the final battle...in this...
Thanks to Basetrade TV for casting... Utilael for his awesome reddit post & youtube links... Neeb, MaSa, MaNa, Bunny, uThermal, Beastyqt, Nerchio & Lillekanin for playing my map... and all you die hard starcraft 2 fans for supporting us all!
Please Vote for Korhal Killzone.
Thank You! SidianTheBard
Nice! Nerchio vs. Neeb is the game to watch if you watch just one.
Oh nice. You can put a townhall in the in-base near the gold now. I can see terran putting a CC there for the mineral income quite often. Also what's the deal with the path between the two top left bases. Is that pathable? Why aren't the bottom right two bases connected?
On June 05 2016 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Also what's the deal with the path between the two top left bases. Is that pathable? Why aren't the bottom right two bases connected?
Oh, symmetry error. And no, they'll be covered in decoration before release.
Chose 4 pretty easily, 5th was a bit of a blind choice from macro maps. Think 5 was a bit too many to get people to think of, more potential for troll picks, but hey ho.
EPT
I really liked Zerus, Erebus, and Frostbite. Is there anyone who knows why they didn't? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lbg3pul.jpg)
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