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On April 29 2016 01:26 MiniFotToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 00:51 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2016 00:43 MiniFotToss wrote:Foreign community says protoss can't beat zerg, Korean pros says zerg can't beat protoss so immortals nerf should be needed. One reason why I kinda sympathize for DK, I wouldn't know who to listen to if I was in his shoes For once it would be nice to have the same map pool so the reason can be "foreign protoss are just bad players". Right now there are maps which are in BO5+ inevitable heavily pro Zerg. Which could mean that foreign Zerg players cannot be beaten but at the same time once these maps are removed they cannot win. Meaning the MU could be mostly affected by maps. I always think that with ZvP it's ALWAYS with maps, that's why maps like Deadwing/Cactus Valley can be very protoss favored. In HOTS, Protoss relied on holding ramps and FF or solid defenses till you get the ultra late-game army to combat zerg. in LOTV, Zerg has that role, to get past the time where Adepts/DT's are no longer able to do fatal damage, the nthey can be favored with Tier 3 units. Basically Zerg and Toss have reversed roles in LOTV
Your conclusion makes no sense, because zerg is weak lategame in pvz. Its the same as in hots, just more extreme. Protoss still has to survive until lategame.
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On April 29 2016 02:34 Draddition wrote:
"However, we can't buff colossus now because protoss is not weak now."
This is the kind of attitude that's driving me insane right now. So much focus is going towards how are races doing right now, not which strategies are doing well. Can we please consider the option of putting out MULTIPLE changes in a single patch? Nerf the units that are problematic, buff the ones that aren't.
I hope you read this.
If you make multiple changes, how can you now what caused what? If you make one change, you know that you have to revert that change or make another change. Thats not the case if you do a lot of (especially overlapping) changes.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 29 2016 20:22 xongnox wrote:
A low league fun problem ?
It's like unscouted oracle/dts/etc kicking you early of the game in 2 seconds, very frustrating, particularly in low league when players doesn't know how to scout / respond / etc, so that simply feels "random" for them.
Imho 'fun' is more related to design than to balance. For example the oracle was strong but not 'imbalanced' in HoTS, still, killing all your stuff in 10 sec when u have 4 marines in a standard opening was an horrible design. ( because, contrary to other cheeses like 4g, proxy 2gates etc, if an 2nd pylon proxy oracle was scouted, the protoss was still in a OK position. If unscouted, he simply wins. )
From this perspective mutalisks are a far, far better design. They need a long time to pop out, so you should be aware, they need repeated and risked actions and micro to really hurt eco, there are a choice to make about how to play with them and where you position them on the map, etc.
Still it's not that fun for certain ppl to play against i guess :D
Mutalisk in PvZ requires a hardcounter otherwise you lose. Now, with nerfed chrono, even more.
Which is what is essentially wrong.
An Oracle requires a hardcounter otherwise you lose. Which is the same problem.
A non cloaked banshee can be killed by better control(TvT) or you can kill more marines with godly control. This cannot be said about oracle. You simple have enough marines or don't have, you have a turret or don't have.
I think that's the problem, units which require hard counters are not fun to play against and they are not properly balanced in lower leagues.
And yes, it is a design problem, but Blizzard won't redesign the game, so that is out of the question, thus they need to "balance" the game so the fun > frustration 
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On April 29 2016 06:10 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 05:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 29 2016 05:49 phodacbiet wrote:On April 29 2016 04:45 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I also would like to say that I don't think they should take feedback from lower leagues players. Who cares if lower league players struggle vs mutas ? They're not struggling vs mutas even half as much as they're struggling vs their poor control, bad macro, nonexistent multitask etc. So doing this buff will not truly help them, while it definitely shuts down mutas in high level ZvP and reinforces the "kill him before he gets there" aspect of mothership + tempests/void rays + storm. But where would we draw the line? Because I'm pretty sure GSL players, Korean GMs, and even the majority of our community would consider the entire NA/EU scene "lower league." Even top GMs in EU/NA would get destroyed by mid-tier kespa players at this point. The skill gap is just too high. That's why I understand David Kim's hesitation on balancing. The Korean scene is saying Protoss is imba, but EU/NA scene is saying Zerg is imba, it's just hard to balance around that. I really don't think the best P NA/EU players say Z is imba in PvZ any more. Maybe not everyone, but all it takes is a few vocal streamers. For example, Terran is doing pretty well for the most part. However, a few vocal Terran streamers still think that T is the worst race ever and if it wasn't for them playing T, they would have won 10 GSLs by now as P or Z. But yeah, I really like that Blizzard is taking balancing extremely slow. I would like a faster map rotation, since I feel like that is how the game should be balanced (like BW). If we confuse map imbalances with actual racial imbalance, then we might mistakenly nerf/buff something. Once the maps are swapped out, then we might create even more problems that we're not originally there.
I actually believe that Lotv depends less on maps than hots. For example force fields, one way center for zerg create no problems because zerg has ravagers and reliable nydus and drop play. There are a lot of things that opened map restrictions.
But there might be also new ones such as ravager, siege tank drop, liberator and disruptors. For example a larger place behind mineral lines is needed, so that liberators cant stay out of range.
Also maps are not comparable to what we had in hots. Some lotv maps are extremely different. Imagine ulrena played in hots, protoss would win that map with force fields alone.
But thats just an opinion until time proves it.
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On April 29 2016 20:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 20:22 xongnox wrote:
A low league fun problem ?
It's like unscouted oracle/dts/etc kicking you early of the game in 2 seconds, very frustrating, particularly in low league when players doesn't know how to scout / respond / etc, so that simply feels "random" for them.
Imho 'fun' is more related to design than to balance. For example the oracle was strong but not 'imbalanced' in HoTS, still, killing all your stuff in 10 sec when u have 4 marines in a standard opening was an horrible design. ( because, contrary to other cheeses like 4g, proxy 2gates etc, if an 2nd pylon proxy oracle was scouted, the protoss was still in a OK position. If unscouted, he simply wins. )
From this perspective mutalisks are a far, far better design. They need a long time to pop out, so you should be aware, they need repeated and risked actions and micro to really hurt eco, there are a choice to make about how to play with them and where you position them on the map, etc.
Still it's not that fun for certain ppl to play against i guess :D Mutalisk in PvZ requires a hardcounter otherwise you lose. Now, with nerfed chrono, even more. Which is what is essentially wrong. An Oracle requires a hardcounter otherwise you lose. Which is the same problem. A non cloaked banshee can be killed by better control(TvT) or you can kill more marines with godly control. This cannot be said about oracle. You simple have enough marines or don't have, you have a turret or don't have. I think that's the problem, units which require hard counters are not fun to play against and they are not properly balanced in lower leagues. And yes, it is a design problem, but Blizzard won't redesign the game, so that is out of the question, thus they need to "balance" the game so the fun > frustration
Marins will always lose to banshees until you have stim.
Oracle might kill a lot of worker but it has a simple answer. Put a turret and you are save against many things. It costs you nothing! You need the upgrades anyway.
But hardcounter means that they deal in low numbers with a high number of units, no matter what! Collossus were hardcounters, immortals vs roaches are hardcounters. 3 Immortals + gateway army (130 supply) could stop 200 supply roach army. 3 Liberators kill already 12 mutalisks and 5-6 liberator can decimate 40 mutalisks that makes it a hardcounter.
Hardcounter dont need skill! They just counter it. Thats why phoenix even with range is not a hardcounter. If you have the skill to stay just in range of mutalisks, mutalisks will never catch them and die. But it takes a lot of attention, time and you need a reasonable number of phoenixes. Nontheless they work in low numbers very good as defense because mutas can't chase them. If mutas attack, they will slowly die to phoenixes. Thats not worth it, if you think that one mutalisk costs 100-100.
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" 3 Liberators kill already 12 mutalisks and 5-6 liberator can decimate 40 mutalisks that makes it a hardcounter."
Technically yes, but no, that is not true.
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On April 29 2016 21:23 wjat wrote:
" 3 Liberators kill already 12 mutalisks and 5-6 liberator can decimate 40 mutalisks that makes it a hardcounter."
Technically yes, but no, that is not true.
You can fight liberators with both those ratios, just split.
This is kind of like saying 12 marines can't fight 4 banelings. Or 100 lings can't fight 1 baneling.
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"TvT is only marine tankivacs vs marine tankivacs but it's fine because players like it".
There is no word in mortal tongues to qualify how vile, dishonnest, unfaithfull, ridiculously pathetically PR orientated and corporate talking this statement is.
Every time i seen a tvt on stream i leave and just watch the results. Because i know how it's gonna be played. There is absolutely no surprise whatsoever. No variation. One of the players will win, but the match on itself is predictable, boring, and actually quite random.
Shame on you DK for not taking care of your game, giving bullshit excuses for your laziness (there is NO EXCUSE for a game in the state of LOTV not to be patched in 5 months). You're just afraid to loose the last bastion of unconditional love for the game (esports), the one that generates money, while shitting on the face of casuals.
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On April 29 2016 21:35 JackONeill wrote:
"TvT is only marine tankivacs vs marine tankivacs but it's fine because players like it".
There is no word in mortal tongues to qualify how vile, dishonnest, unfaithfull, ridiculously pathetically PR orientated and corporate talking this statement is.
Every time i seen a tvt on stream i leave and just watch the results. Because i know how it's gonna be played. There is absolutely no surprise whatsoever. No variation. One of the players will win, but the match on itself is predictable, boring, and actually quite random.
Shame on you DK for not taking care of your game, giving bullshit excuses for your laziness (there is NO EXCUSE for a game in the state of LOTV not to be patched in 5 months). You're just afraid to loose the last bastion of unconditional love for the game (esports), the one that generates money, while shitting on the face of casuals.
I'd argue casuals aren't shoehorned into marine tankivac. There's enough mistakes on both sides to open up more viable strategies.
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On April 29 2016 21:38 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 21:35 JackONeill wrote:
"TvT is only marine tankivacs vs marine tankivacs but it's fine because players like it".
There is no word in mortal tongues to qualify how vile, dishonnest, unfaithfull, ridiculously pathetically PR orientated and corporate talking this statement is.
Every time i seen a tvt on stream i leave and just watch the results. Because i know how it's gonna be played. There is absolutely no surprise whatsoever. No variation. One of the players will win, but the match on itself is predictable, boring, and actually quite random.
Shame on you DK for not taking care of your game, giving bullshit excuses for your laziness (there is NO EXCUSE for a game in the state of LOTV not to be patched in 5 months). You're just afraid to loose the last bastion of unconditional love for the game (esports), the one that generates money, while shitting on the face of casuals. I'd argue casuals aren't shoehorned into marine tankivac. There's enough mistakes on both sides to open up more viable strategies.
Totally agree.
By the way: In more than 75% of situations I face (diamond level), players run into the dark (no scouting marines) and loose their units to siege tank lines. In these scenarios it often does not matter whether I fly the tanks into position or just roll them there and siege them all at once. So the error here is not the medivac+tank combination but the lacking vision of the opponent.
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On April 29 2016 21:38 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 21:35 JackONeill wrote:
"TvT is only marine tankivacs vs marine tankivacs but it's fine because players like it".
There is no word in mortal tongues to qualify how vile, dishonnest, unfaithfull, ridiculously pathetically PR orientated and corporate talking this statement is.
Every time i seen a tvt on stream i leave and just watch the results. Because i know how it's gonna be played. There is absolutely no surprise whatsoever. No variation. One of the players will win, but the match on itself is predictable, boring, and actually quite random.
Shame on you DK for not taking care of your game, giving bullshit excuses for your laziness (there is NO EXCUSE for a game in the state of LOTV not to be patched in 5 months). You're just afraid to loose the last bastion of unconditional love for the game (esports), the one that generates money, while shitting on the face of casuals. I'd argue casuals aren't shoehorned into marine tankivac. There's enough mistakes on both sides to open up more viable strategies.
Oh yeah of course for bronze to diam's you can play pretty much any style and win. But once you get into high masters there is no other way. By casual i include masters and GM as long as they don't play professionally.
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EPT
