A look at Co-op Swann

tokinho

United States792 Posts

March 20 2016 07:12 GMT

I didn't find a carbot animation about Swann, so i made this after Carbot Animations, (click on the link to watch the brood war video)

Swann, is a smooth operator mech commander that will make america great again. The top candidate for strongest hero, his co-op play could "Trump" all others. When looking right off, the first thing you'll notice is his gigantic Drakken drill. When asked about it he trumped his interviewers telling them that its huge and effective. That it is and upgrading it is never a bad choice. He is also an entrepreneur of sorts investing a little to get more gas income than any other hero with the vespene harvesters benefitting both you and your teammate. He also has a large variety of ways to reach his end goals meaning he has one of the richest playstyles.

Mech has probably one of the most polarizing opinions in multiplayer at the current point, but Swann doesn't experience many of the challenges that mech players will aviDoge. In contrast to mech on the ladder, you have an abundance of gas, and with the drakken laser you can face down any target, even ultralisks, with ease. The goliath anti-air is great and you even have more freedom to micro and scout with wraiths and cyclones. In addition to those things, losing thors and siege tanks isn't a major issue since you can repair them easily with the Immortality protocol. The only thing that is hard to make work is mass wraithes. With many options, Swann has a way that anyone can play him to fit their style.

Even his acheivements are relatively easy and there is a trick to do the gas one that makes it painless. You can simply clear void launch on a lower difficulty then sit on the score screen. With all 12 gases, you'll produce 14k gas an hour simply sitting on the score screen. After leveling to 15 the extra 45 k can be done just letting the computer sit for 3 hours.

Swann is truly that co-op commander that makes mech great again and feels great to play. Despite having a few weak areas, your allies will be glad you are on their team. Even when you are being fired, you can research suppression systems to put the fires out and continue until the end.
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Opener builds-

Xsyq's super greedy unitless fast expand build into tanks with advanced reconstruction**
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14 depot 0:24
15 factory 0:50
16 2 blaster billy turrets 1:22 Build each with 2 workers
(Send 4 more workers at 1:10 Should have 11 workers on minerals*)
18 cc 2:35
20 lift and place cc @ 2:55 (salvage the two blaster billy's
20 2 refinery 3:00
20 flaming betty @ ramp 3:05
22 Vespene harvester drone 3:20
25 tech lab on factory 3:50
Rush tank production.
*11 workers is the number of workers needed to constantly build scvs and depots.
**Hard to hold any early waves, so its recommended with a teammate that will hold them (I.e. not raynor, Kerrigan, or artanis Teammates)

Infernal Fast Expo into infernal preignitor, Drill Beam level 1 rush
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14 depot 0:24
15 factory 0:50
18 gas 1:30
19 2 blaster billy's to kill natural rocks 1:53
19 hellbat 2:00
22 supply depot 2:18
23 tech lab on factory 2:30
24 Salvage Blaster billies 2:50 (after killing rocks)
25 vespene harvester drone 2:52
25 Command Center 3:00
26 Infernal Preignitor 3:10
27 second gas 3:15
27 supply depot 3:23
28 hellbat 3:41
31 Armory
35 Drill Beam Level 1 Damage ~4:20

6 Goliath opener
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14 supply depot 0:24
15 refinery 0:41
16 factory 1:04
19 Vespene harvester calldown 1:58
20 Tech lab 2:06
20 supply depot 2:08
22 supply depot 3:00
22 3rd gas 3:05
26 2 goliaths 3:06
30 2 goliaths 3:35
34 supply depot 3:45
35 mag lock upgrade 4:05
CC asap

There is no real reason to get a second factory faster or the armory before the tech lab addon. usually i go 2 armories into 2 factories, then a starport Whenever I have a couple hundred minerals I just put it into the vespene harvester drone Calldown.

Also valkaries are basically good to snipe a light units like a baneling or give vision and they die extremely easily. Once i have about 3 sciecne vessels i usually build about 4 to send around the map for vision and using the drill during downtimes.

There is quite a bit of variety tho, if you want to you can go gas before factory and build only goliaths, or rush out wraiths. Both are quite viable strategies and delay the command center. End game i try to have 3 factories, 1 starport, 3 armories, engineering bay, and all the drakken laser upgrades.

By about 10 minutes I try to start science vessels as they are your only detector for cloaked and burrowed units.
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Leveling-
Swann leveling is pretty easy-
2-Combat Drop- Unlockes the ability to calldown 4 A.R.E.S. war bots with timed life, stunning enemy units in the target area upon arrival. Call down the combat drop from the top panel.
4-Drakken Laser Drill

ulse Cannon- The Drakken Drill can now be upgraded a second time, increasing its attack damage from 30 to 50.
5-Vespene Harvester- Unlocks the ability for command center to call down automated harvesters that gather extra vespene from your or your allies vespene gathering structures.
7-Factory Upgrade Cache- Unlocks the following upgrades at the factory tech lab:
* Allows Goliaths to attack ground and air units simultaneously.
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10-Tech Reactors- Combines tech labs and reactors into a single addon which contains upgrades for units while allowing 2 units to be built simultanously.
12-Immortality protocol- Unlocks the ability for destroyed thors and siege tanks to repair themselves on the battlefield for vespene gas.

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All Levels-
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1-Vehicle Specialist- Swann Builds vehicles and ships 20% faster than other commanders. Building factories does not cost vespene gas.
2-Combat Drop- Unlockes the ability to calldown 4 A.R.E.S. war bots with timed life, stunning enemy units in the target area upon arrival. Call down the combat drop from the top panel.
3-Betty and the Gang-
*Increases The attack range of devastation turrets from 6 to 9. Attacks now slow enemy movement speed by 30%.
*Increases the life of missile turrets from 250 to 325. Attacks now deal area damage.
*Reduces the cost of Perdition Turrets by 50%.
4-Drakken Laser Drill

ulse Cannon- The Drakken Drill can now be upgraded a second time, increasing its attack damage from 30 to 50.
Pulse Cannon ability unlocks, which deals 600 damage to structures and units in the target area. Activate the pulse cannon ability from the top panel.
5-Vespene Harvester- Unlocks the ability for command center to call down automated harvesters that gather extra vespene from your or your allies vespene gathering structures.
6-New unit:Thor- Heavy assault unit built from the factory.
7-Factory Upgrade Cache- Unlocks the following upgrades at the factory tech lab:
* Allows Goliaths to attack ground and air units simultaneously.
* Increases the damage of the cyclones lock-on ability by 50%.
* Unlocks the thor's 330mm barrage cannon ability, which stuns and deals damage to enemy units in a target area.
8-Improved Scv's- Allows multiple scv's to construct a structure in tandem. Repair no longer costs resources.
9-Armory Upgrade Cache- Unlocks the following upgrades at the Armory:
* Increase the attack range of all vehicles and ships by 1.
* Allows vehicles and ships to automatically heal themselves over time
10-Tech Reactors- Combines tech labs and reactors into a single addon which contains upgrades for units while allowing 2 units to be built simultanously.
11-Engineering bay upgrade cache- Unlocks the following upgrades at the engineering bay:
*Fire Supression Systems:Allows strucutres to automatically extinguish fires and repair themselves to 50% of their maximum health.
*KMC Auto-Loaders:Increases the attack speed of all turrets by 25%.
12-Immortality protocol- Unlocks the ability for destroyed thors and siege tanks to repair themselves on the battlefield for vespene gas.
13- Starport Upgrade Cache-
* Upgrades wraiths to evade 20% of incoming damage while cloaked.
* Defense Matrix: Science vessel defense matrix allows a units to absorb 200 damage over 20 seconds.
14-Six for the price of four- Increases the number of A.R.E.S. war bots called down from 4 to 6.
15-Mechanical know-how- Increases the life of all Swann's Vehicle and starship units by 20%.

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Choosing transitions and upgrades-

There is a rich diversity of tech upgrades possible. There are a few that i tend to go for early. Often i like to rush infernal preignitor, Infernal plating, and multilock weapons systems. They make the early game hellbat, hellion, goliath composition tanky as well has have high dps. I usually only build cyclones in 2-3 numbers playing against phoenixes. They cost a lot of gas, require a lot of micro and have no tanking potential. similarly i don't build a lot of wraiths, low dps, high gas, high risk of losing them. I like the pairing of wraith vision to catch certain priority targets with the drakken drill. This is usefull for opening up an area.

Because its different from the campaign I'll go over this in more depth here similar to my Karax guide.
Tl dr; Upgrade the drill to max, get all upgrades for goliaths,science vessels, and hellbats. Use the extra minerals to get vespene
Drakken drill and calldowns
I like to upgrade the drill after i have about 6-8 units. Then do the second upgrade after i have 2 armories, a 2 factories, a starport and 6 vespene harvester calldowns.
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Other units and building upgrades-
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Hellbats-
Infernal preignitor and Infernal plating- Both of these are extremely useful particularly against zerglings and terran bio.
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Goliaths-
These units are sooo good in soo many situations. They are strong at air and ground dps, not that many hit points so try to keep them safe.
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Other Factory tech lab upgrades
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Armory upgrades
Advanced optics is one of the best upgrades in co-op. The regenerative biosteel is so slow it might not ever fully repair a unit.
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Science vessels.
Both of these upgrades are great and i often get them realitvely early since they both offer options.
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Wraiths
The aditional evasion is almost useless and additional damage is good for sniping a very small number of units. I don't think they are as important as upgrading the drill or focusing on increasing your army in other ways.
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Turrets and ebay upgrades
You can go mass static defense as a mineral sync. It works particularly well if you don't need to be tanky with a zagara or raynor teammate. The extra buiding armor is great. I put the Flaming Betty's in front with the Blaster billy turrets and anti-air turrets behind them.
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Ideal Late game composition-
The strongest army is centered around high goliath counts with thor/tank splash damage and tankyness from the hellbats.
Usually I shoot for about 6-8 hellbats, 5-6 thors, 6 siege tanks, 4 science vessels, 2-3 wraiths for vision, and about 15-25 goliaths.

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Full Image Album on IMGUR With all Swann's Upgrades and Abilities

Here's gameplay I did playing him just so you can see what it looks like.
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Goliath opener for anti-air on Void Launch

Swann is relatively user friendly and Trumps the other heroes with diversity. Just like Trump's bombastic nature, you'll find your reputation will sit well with your allies. The only weakness really is air to air or soft defensive structures which is made of up for with all the other redeaming qualities. Your allies will appreciate the freedom they get from reinforcing your heavy army framework. Despite a tedious gas achivement which is usually solved by leaving the computer on for a few hours. He's probably the most well rounded of all the candidates for the current pool and you'll likely be choosing him as a top candidate for play.

Purind

Canada3562 Posts

March 20 2016 15:38 GMT

I always find it interesting how diverse your ideal compositions always are. In all of your guides, you have these compositions that bring in just about every single tech. I typically go 8 tanks, 1 hercules transport, several science vessels and the rest goliaths. On the train map and the temple defense map I tend to go heavier on tanks, sometimes getting 16+ tanks.

Goliaths are sooo good, they can take on just about everything. With all their range upgrades, they can rip through ground. Their anti air is obviously crazy good. Adding 1 hercules transport worth of tanks rounds out the army. I never really liked thors or wraiths. Thors are clunky and wraiths require a lot of attention to keep alive. Hell bats are good but I find tank/goliath takes care of ground just fine. Herc/Goliath/Vessel have a nice not-too-slow not-too-fast feel and stay together pretty well without requiring too much attention

tokinho

United States792 Posts

March 20 2016 20:46 GMT

On March 21 2016 00:38 Purind wrote:
I always find it interesting how diverse your ideal compositions always are. In all of your guides, you have these compositions that bring in just about every single tech. I typically go 8 tanks, 1 hercules transport, several science vessels and the rest goliaths. On the train map and the temple defense map I tend to go heavier on tanks, sometimes getting 16+ tanks.

Goliaths are sooo good, they can take on just about everything. With all their range upgrades, they can rip through ground. Their anti air is obviously crazy good. Adding 1 hercules transport worth of tanks rounds out the army. I never really liked thors or wraiths. Thors are clunky and wraiths require a lot of attention to keep alive. Hell bats are good but I find tank/goliath takes care of ground just fine. Herc/Goliath/Vessel have a nice not-too-slow not-too-fast feel and stay together pretty well without requiring too much attention

Good point. I guess I have a lot of say about starcraft theory that isn't explained in my guides. The guides are more meant to be fun and written around the idea that the core easiest composition, highest scoring late game composition, and the key upgrades are all visible when opening the guide initially. They are meant to be more detailed than fezvez's guides and aimed at a different type of audience. (not some looking to just try something, but someone more interested in understanding the whys and hows.) For organization, an optimal opener or two which leads into the easiest composition soonest is shown. All of the tech trees and choices with relative power and mention of any hard achievements are addressed and any specific compositional changes that MUST be done are also placed in them. This means a person of all levels looking at the guide would get something from a fast glance, while somebody who grinds for kills,ending a map fastest, or achievements will come back later for a detail in the guide. This does not explain my thoughts on starcraft theory or optimization, but more my choice of presentation.

I'll try to explain my stracraft theory here. In terms of playing starcraft for most powerful mid-game timings, you just mass 1-3 units and focus on the elements that makes those attacks stronger. For many players you will have more success just focusing on this principle. (I.e. Kerrigan mostly just build frenzied hydras and lings, Vorazun just build dts and void rays, Swann just build tanks and goliaths, any zagara game(she doesn't have tools to stack army), raynor Mass Marine vulture) In the end though you won't have a 1400 kill Swann game doing this. (I have a hard time recording these games because my pc lags so much when i play them.) Most players will say that they don't feel that you need to go past this midgame point in terms of co-op. The truth is when i play I'm actually often part of this player base, taking fewer risks, and building for powerful mid-game timings.

But if the game comes to the point where you can actually build any unit. (I.e. your teammate is not just dead weight.) You can actually try an optimized build. Player vs Player (PP, chosen to not be confusing) is exactly this process of optimizing builds. Thus, I stick to the same framework of multiplayer, PP. Usually you have an opener based around minimal units, getting your economy up faster, or having a little stronger early army and doing more with them. (I.e. harass, clearing a portion of the map, rushing a tech to get a better engagement) After this opener, there are two types of transitions. One which favors a mid game timing and one that sets up for a better late game composition. In my guides I usually write for these two styles highlighting the abilities that are best for mid-game timings and showing what I was able to get the most kills with, clear the map fastest, or end the game the quickest.(late game composition).

Now once you have done the leg work on these styles. (a few main openers, a small number of transitions for each, and the timings that things come on the map) you can work on execution and start to keep track of what yields the highest possible result for each one. Because you are taking more risks, you will lose more. You will perform more poorly, but also you will start to hit much higher kill rates. For example for each hero, I've pulled 1400 kill game as Swann, 1150 game as Kerrigan, 1020 kill game as Karax, and 1300 kill game as Zagara, 1280 as Raynor, 980 as Artanis, and 1100 as Vorazun. (Its harder to describe a good metric for success against mech and robo compositions here)

Most people don't even know the openers, transitions, and never test compositions past the easiest builds. They don't focus on execution with the newest units and trying to maximize builds, keep track of kills, how quickly they can finish maps, nor map specific details. They never get to the "late game" gameplay in starcraft, either because they don't find it interesting, care to improve more, or get bored. This limitation means that a very large portion of the starcraft community will not want to aim for these goals nor understand why i'm doing what i'm doing in my guides. I do try to add some nice art and have a stylistic writing so that these "boring" high level details aren't boring to the average player, while someone who is trying to improve will come back for the other content.
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The process of optimization
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Starcraft has a set of concrete elements. Usually they are builds, maps, players you are playing with, etc. Your goal then as a player is to use the tools that you have in order to fine a way to achieve something. (In multiplayer, its a bit different because there is an element of harass which is not in Co-op. Thus you have a bit more freedom in co-op)

Optimization (multi-modal) concepts-
Define your goal (I.e. Maximize the total kills on Map (x) with Ally (Y) against composition (Z)
Define the limiting factors to getting to your goal and focus on these. (modes, I.e. attack wave timings, upgrades, production)
Define the resultant Cost (function) of taking an engagement at a set of positions.
Analyze feasibility and sensitivity of reaching this optimum (i.e. unit control, mechanics)

This is basically what a person is doing in terms of playing starcraft. (Hence why my work on build optimization, AI development, and writing guides like these overlap so much.) The trick then becomes how to create the correct decision tree with all know factors and refine this tree with experience which is what make computational power often a limiting factor and why computers probably won't beat top sc2 players for another few years in real time rts.

I have much more complicated decision trees than what i post in these guides, because that is what i actually think starcraft is. Everything else is just noise until you hit that point. So I might say I have x hero, y teammate, z enemy composition, on map m. Then keep track of each individual one. (Since there are 6 maps and 6 enemy compositions 6 teammate and 7 heroes (6*6*6*7~1500) possible game combinations 42 player combinations, 36 possible map styles.

When you what pro players do coaching they usually like to have students that are working on the optimization, not people who don't even know the openers, transitions, and never test compositions past the easiest builds. This is often what happens when i do my coaching. I go over these laborious parts in extensive detail- builds, transitions, timings, map specifics, mechanics, and how to best deal with pro level players. After a while the hardcore community will player other servers, because they don't find NA that good because NA players in general do not work on grinding out their play. All my tournament notes that I used to do on individual players are based around these principles. It is much more difficult and requires much more effort and losing with riskier styles to improve.

Many players will say, it all feels the same. Its true doing one build, ignoring map details, doing one composition, without a goal, I could see why they say that. On the other hand, with 1500 permutations and lot of optimization, I do not share that viewpoint. While you may not want to test your optimization and focus on mid game timings and builds with simpler execution, I hope that you can appreciate my effort to make these guides fun. I have spent over 20 hours to make each one after significant testing, to try and get players to a much higher level of play, while at the same time providing the most important information at first glance for a new player, someone with some experience, and someone who is grinding. Thanks for reading them and commenting

The Bottle

242 Posts

March 21 2016 04:18 GMT

Nice guide, but in your opening post you pretty much (in my opinion) skipped over the thing that makes Swann the best. Tanks in Hercules. For just about every game, even in the shuttle map, I aim to have 2-3 full hercules' worth of siege tanks (that's about 16-24 since 8 can fit while sieged). (Obviously I go for way less if the AI does a heavy air composition.) The ability to drop them and pick them up immediately while sieged pretty much makes herc-tanks the best anti-ground in all of co-op, IMO. Better than mass Vorazun DTs. And the fact that you can teleport them is godlike. The most satisfying feeling with Swann is to drop 2-3 hercs worth of sieged tanks and watch a gigantic ground army just melt. I don't know if it's optimal, but damn nothing feels more satisfying than dropping all those tanks and watching them fire away. It's the reason I play him so often.

Of course, I back them up with goliaths and science vessels too. But I build those up into critical mass a little later; I usually start focusing on tanks with hercs first (except in the shuttle map, or against AI that goes heavily in air). Almost every game my composition is tanks in hercs, goliaths, and science vessels. The SVs are great for using defense matrix on the hercs, since those can sometimes be prime targets for things like yamato cannon.

The reason I think wraiths are so hard to pull off is because of their gas cost. They cost 100 (iirc, I haven't made them in so long), and their anti-air isn't really better than goliaths'. Certainly not their anti-ground. All you're paying for with that extra 50 gas is the mobility, which I find isn't worth it, especially when you need to counter gigantic attack waves, and you're more concerned about packing a huge punch than mobility. Also, like Purind, I never really use thors. I think they're too clunky slow and clunky, and don't really serve any purpose better than the other units I use. They certainly don't have the mobility nor anti-ground capability of herc-tanks, and their anti air is outclassed by goliaths.

tokinho

United States792 Posts

March 21 2016 21:13 GMT

On March 21 2016 13:18 The Bottle wrote:
Nice guide, but in your opening post you pretty much (in my opinion) skipped over the thing that makes Swann the best. Tanks in Hercules. For just about every game, even in the shuttle map, I aim to have 2-3 full hercules' worth of siege tanks (that's about 16-24 since 8 can fit while sieged). (Obviously I go for way less if the AI does a heavy air composition.) The ability to drop them and pick them up immediately while sieged pretty much makes herc-tanks the best anti-ground in all of co-op, IMO. Better than mass Vorazun DTs. And the fact that you can teleport them is godlike. The most satisfying feeling with Swann is to drop 2-3 hercs worth of sieged tanks and watch a gigantic ground army just melt. I don't know if it's optimal, but damn nothing feels more satisfying than dropping all those tanks and watching them fire away. It's the reason I play him so often.

Of course, I back them up with goliaths and science vessels too. But I build those up into critical mass a little later; I usually start focusing on tanks with hercs first (except in the shuttle map, or against AI that goes heavily in air). Almost every game my composition is tanks in hercs, goliaths, and science vessels. The SVs are great for using defense matrix on the hercs, since those can sometimes be prime targets for things like yamato cannon.

The reason I think wraiths are so hard to pull off is because of their gas cost. They cost 100 (iirc, I haven't made them in so long), and their anti-air isn't really better than goliaths'. Certainly not their anti-ground. All you're paying for with that extra 50 gas is the mobility, which I find isn't worth it, especially when you need to counter gigantic attack waves, and you're more concerned about packing a huge punch than mobility. Also, like Purind, I never really use thors. I think they're too clunky slow and clunky, and don't really serve any purpose better than the other units I use. They certainly don't have the mobility nor anti-ground capability of herc-tanks, and their anti air is outclassed by goliaths.

Very good point. I usually don't go too high of a tank count because i like to split my army up a lot to get high kill counts. I haven't tried to build a stable midgame of lifting and moving mass tank armies with the hercules. I practiced doing a few more hellions early and push upgrades and trying to figure out how to transition on the maps before rather than tank counts. I'll see what i can do to add that. I haven't really practiced tank drops much in the regular game nor co-op so it may take a while to get it down to a publishable level.

I feel the same as you about the thors. Most games i may only build 1, if any. The reason why i use 5-6 is because i'm usually using 1 early to push, then 3 later on for my pushing group. then fill in with 2-3 more with the second pushing group. they do not stack well, but 1 with a defensive matrix on it initiating is 200+ dm shield, 400 health,+science vessel heealing, 400 rehealth. a wopping 1k to 1.k health for tanking the initial shots and dropping the 33mm stuns. Thus, its extremely cost efficient and its purpose is more like a spell caster/tank than dps. To clear the whole map with 2 pushing groups of units and 2 defensive groups. in reality I only have 3 keybinds for army control. The thors help draw out the fight so I can adjust the army at home with less risk that I lose a portion of the units. That's the only reason i'm using them. If you don't ever build them that is fine as well.

tokinho

United States792 Posts

March 21 2016 23:29 GMT

Ok so i tried it a bit. It feels like it has the same challenges that tank drop play in the normal game. Where it takes a long time to load them up. Like lets say i have 10 tanks and 2 hercules, to load them i can click on the tanks then click on the hercules but i have to wait a while for it to load. Is there a faster way?

Purind

Canada3562 Posts

March 22 2016 00:04 GMT

That's the way I do it, but I'm lazy and tend to clump my tanks. I don't seem to have speed issues. I use 1 Herc and 8 tanks

The Bottle

242 Posts

March 22 2016 02:14 GMT

On March 22 2016 08:29 tokinho wrote:

Ok so i tried it a bit. It feels like it has the same challenges that tank drop play in the normal game. Where it takes a long time to load them up. Like lets say i have 10 tanks and 2 hercules, to load them i can click on the tanks then click on the hercules but i have to wait a while for it to load. Is there a faster way?

Once you commanded the tanks to enter the hercs, you can just move your hercs close to the tanks that haven't loaded yet, and they'll load automatically. If you gave the load command to the tanks, they will be trying to load up the entire time while your hercs are just free to do what they want. (i.e. hovering near them). Moving the hercs won't cancel the load command, because that command was given to your tanks, not your hercs.

Xsyq

143 Posts

March 27 2016 07:31 GMT

There's a much better opener for Swann once you hit level 7 with Advanced Construction.
14 depot - send 3 more SCVs to finish before 15th SCV pops
15 factory - use all 4 SCVs from depot
16 2 blaster turrets at expo w/4 SCVs and attack rocks, you'll need to cut one worker
18 Send 4 more SCVs to expo, salvage turrets and build CC with 8 workers
You'll have 2 bases up and mining by 2:50, with no need to transfer any more workers, and enough money to build 2 perditions at the main entrance, enough for almost any wave (iirc roaches is the only one that can break through, in which case you pull SCVs and rush build a blaster turret/repair).
Immediately proceed to get refineries (you can rush build them with 3 SCVs each and they will auto-mine), then a tech lab and a couple siege tanks (or goliaths vs air) for the next waves.

I generally go very tank-heavy on most maps unless it's vs air waves, in which case I'll still get at least 8. Tanks with maelstrom rounds and the ability to micro with hercules drops are just ridiculously good vs ground. You won't need much of a meatshield because they simply kill everything before it can get into range. My general endgame army composition is 3-5 hercules, 16-20 tanks, a couple thors, 4-5 science vessels, and the rest goliaths. I agree with everyone who's stated the importance of hercules; they are a HUGE force multiplier. They change the slowest and least mobile army in the game into one of the fastest, without compromising any of its power. Their 3 supply cost is easily compensated by the ability to pick up damaged units and move them to the back to keep fighting. I think most people fall into the trap of just massing goliaths and miss out on one of the most enjoyable combos in the game.

Edit: I also have to put in a good word for Regenerative Bio-Steel, it's a great upgrade that can stand in for science vessels with good hercules micro. If I don't need detection I'll generally wait to make vessels with my last 6-8 supply because everything will heal itself up automatically.

tokinho

United States792 Posts

March 28 2016 02:40 GMT

#10

On March 27 2016 16:31 Xsyq wrote:
There's a much better opener for Swann once you hit level 7 with Advanced Construction.
14 depot - send 3 more SCVs to finish before 15th SCV pops
15 factory - use all 4 SCVs from depot
16 2 blaster turrets at expo w/4 SCVs and attack rocks, you'll need to cut one worker
18 Send 4 more SCVs to expo, salvage turrets and build CC with 8 workers
You'll have 2 bases up and mining by 2:50, with no need to transfer any more workers, and enough money to build 2 perditions at the main entrance, enough for almost any wave (iirc roaches is the only one that can break through, in which case you pull SCVs and rush build a blaster turret/repair).
Immediately proceed to get refineries (you can rush build them with 3 SCVs each and they will auto-mine), then a tech lab and a couple siege tanks (or goliaths vs air) for the next waves.

I generally go very tank-heavy on most maps unless it's vs air waves, in which case I'll still get at least 8. Tanks with maelstrom rounds and the ability to micro with hercules drops are just ridiculously good vs ground. You won't need much of a meatshield because they simply kill everything before it can get into range. My general endgame army composition is 3-5 hercules, 16-20 tanks, a couple thors, 4-5 science vessels, and the rest goliaths. I agree with everyone who's stated the importance of hercules; they are a HUGE force multiplier. They change the slowest and least mobile army in the game into one of the fastest, without compromising any of its power. Their 3 supply cost is easily compensated by the ability to pick up damaged units and move them to the back to keep fighting. I think most people fall into the trap of just massing goliaths and miss out on one of the most enjoyable combos in the game.

Edit: I also have to put in a good word for Regenerative Bio-Steel, it's a great upgrade that can stand in for science vessels with good hercules micro. If I don't need detection I'll generally wait to make vessels with my last 6-8 supply because everything will heal itself up automatically.

Cool, added your build. Still having a hard time getting 1k + kills with the tank combo, but it is easier to hold positions. Not completely sure what is the ideal composition any more as it seems that there is definitely a place for both.

Xsyq

143 Posts

March 28 2016 05:34 GMT

#11

I really should write down all the timings for my build so I can explain it better, going from memory just doesn't do it. I suppose the one you have can work, but mine doesn't need to lift the CC and it holds off any AI wave. Let me elaborate a bit:
14 depot - send 3 more SCVs to finish before 15th SCV pops
15 factory - use all 4 SCVs from depot
16 1 blaster turret at expo w/same 4 SCVs
16 Another blaster turret with 4 SCVs, attack rocks with SCVs once finished
Continue SCV production once the second turret is finished, you will be able to continually produce from now on.
At 300 health on rocks send 4 more SCVs to expo, rocks should die and turrets finish salvaging almost exactly the time the extra SCVs arrive. Build CC with all 8 SCVs in place next to minerals, you should not need to lift since the rocks are dead.
Send two SCVs to main entrance to build two perdition turrets, this will hold off any AI wave except roaches with proper micro and repair. As mentioned above, roaches will require more SCVs pulled and a rushed blaster turret. Do not worry if you take severe losses (though you shouldn't), as roach/hydra dies very easily to tanks so you can still win.
Once the wave is dead add on refineries as your minerals allow, I generally get one at each base to keep worker saturation as even as possible, then add on as many gas drones as possible with extra minerals before taking the last geysers. I'm not too sure about when to take refineries vs gas drones, as gas drones cost more up-front and only produce half as much but refineries take 3 SCVs off mining minerals leading to fewer minerals in the long run. The 2 refinery - gas drones - 2 refineries seems to have the best mineral/gas balance for this build.
Anything except early pheonix from the AI means you should get a tech reactor (or tech lab if you haven't gotten to level ten), a tank, and Maelstrom Rounds. The tank should pop out just in time for the second wave. Against pheonix you should reactor out a couple goliaths. After holding off the second wave, drop a starport so you can start to micro your tanks with hercules, then build an armory for Regenerative Bio-steel and the first beam upgrade. This is where things start to split.
The main factor in your unit composition is how much of the AI waves are grounded. Maelstrom hercules tanks are ridiculously good against ground units, so your only limiting factor will be dealing with enemy air. More enemy air, more goliaths, thors, and science vessels. More enemy ground, more tanks. You will be able to afford all the tanks because science vessels aren't needed when your enemies die before they can fire a shot, and RBS takes care of any scratches your tanks might receive.
Whatever the specific unit composition, you'll generally end up with two armories, two factories and one starport with tech reactors. Unless you're going wraiths, which is just three reactored starports.

I think kills are a very fuzzy way of describing a build's effectiveness. You can barely reach a hundred on Void Thrashing against Protoss but hit over a thousand on Oblivion Express vs ling-bane-muta without trying too hard. Percentage-wise this build usually gets 66-75% of the kills with random partners without too much effort on my part, so it seems pretty good to me. I usually just play Void Launch, take a third on the right side, and camp three of the enemy spawns.

Highways

Australia6103 Posts

March 29 2016 11:40 GMT

#12

I just mass goliaths and a few science vessels