EPTThere are only two things we need to know:
Do a majority of pro/casual players like playing Phoenix vs Phoenix PvP?
Do viewers like watching those matchups?
I don't think it's very interesting to watch, but that's just me.
A Change to the Oracle - Page 4
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
There are only two things we need to know: Do a majority of pro/casual players like playing Phoenix vs Phoenix PvP? Do viewers like watching those matchups? I don't think it's very interesting to watch, but that's just me. | ||
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Elentos
55573 Posts
On March 14 2016 04:18 stuchiu wrote: Do Protoss players like playing phoenix wars? One of the concepts behind the deisgn/balance that Blizzard have stated is making the game more fun to play on all levels. I'm sure there are enough Protoss players who like them (if only because it spares them of an explosive disruptor death). I wonder how many Protoss players will still go phoenix just to practice their control, after all they need them in PvZ anyway  | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On March 14 2016 04:15 Musicus wrote: Seriously, Snute thinks so different, he always suggests crazy changes that seem really fun. Would love him on the design team. Was that not a joke? I mean its difficult enough to harass a protoss player that would be horrible for other races. Protoss has already the best defense. Pylon overcharge is mobile (compared to other defense), costs only energy and is strong. | ||
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Elentos
55573 Posts
On March 14 2016 04:25 stuchiu wrote: Do viewers like watching those matchups? I don't think it's very interesting to watch, but that's just me. Depends on who's playing and how it plays out. Not every phoenix vs phoenix game ends up being the same. Just like not every muta vs muta game plays out the same. For the record, how common is phoenix vs phoenix on ladder? I don't feel like it happens extraordinairily often in Korean leagues atm. And also, isn't it just as much a consequence of the strength of the phoenix? | ||
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Hurricaned
France126 Posts
The other match-ups are not affected How is this a good thing. Oracle is such a ridiculous unit I wouldn't mind it being completely changed... Not only its a super fast air caster with almost infinite spells but it 2 shots workers and is incredibly annoying to deal with. | ||
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RedGD
Germany22 Posts
Pulsar Beam - Damage decreased from 15 (+10 vs light) to 14 (+4 vs light). Stalkers would live longer instead of deal more damage against Oracles. | ||
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
On March 14 2016 04:08 Nathanias wrote: Personally I don't see any negatives to this except sniping oracles with vikings in tvP lategame would be easier. If it prevents phoenix wars (which remind me of muta vs muta which was also terrible) then I think Protoss players who are already having a hard enough time getting penetrated by zergs around the world then it's a good change. Morrow and I decided to include the fact that Oracle has had revelation range buffed to 12, and since the Oracle mostly will be threatened in the lategame in this case, there are many options in order to make sure the Oracle does not die. On March 14 2016 04:12 Liquid`Snute wrote: Another fun fix would be if Guardian Shield made Probes immune to damage :D This change is great and I hope the design team agrees with the players on this one. Hoping for input from KR players and ShoWTimE/Lilbow next time We did what we could to reach out to as many players as possible, and Lilbow was aware of the suggestion as he lives together with Ptitdrogo, and I would believe they would speak similarily on the issue. Getting koreans to comments a community-made suggestion is harder unlike if it was like actual balance test notes. And thanks, Snute :-) On March 14 2016 02:42 NonY wrote: Any vods or replays of the phoenix vs phoenix games that are luck-based? I've played many of them myself recently despite playing NA -> KR latency which is a real challenge for the micro and I never have felt like the game was decided by luck. I'd like to analyze some of the games that these pros felt came down to luck in order to see if I can find a mistake that changed the result of the game. I understand your concerns here, and for the most part phoenix wars would be identical to what it is currently - though likely in much less frequent numbers. So while there can be mixed opinions on the phoenix wars, I think it is objectively true that phoenix wars should not be a prefered strategy due to the potential it has with countering oracles. Protoss players can still play phoenix as much as we like. This was one of the main things I still was not sure about before suggesting writing the article to Morrow, but it occured to me that this does not actually improve Phoenix-vs-Phoenix explicity, assuming there are problems, but it reduces the frequency that it is played, and for players who dislike the style will have more means to play ground. | ||
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
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Elentos
55573 Posts
On March 14 2016 04:52 RedGD wrote: You could simply nerf the IMBA Oracle damage. Pulsar Beam - Damage decreased from 15 (+10 vs light) to 14 (+4 vs light). Stalkers would live longer instead of deal more damage against Oracles. That's a pretty big nerf in all matchups (not what the authors had in mind) and I don't think the problem in PvP is oracles killing stalkers. | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
On March 14 2016 04:32 todespolka wrote: Was that not a joke? I mean its difficult enough to harass a protoss player that would be horrible for other races. Protoss has already the best defense. Pylon overcharge is mobile (compared to other defense), costs only energy and is strong. It wasn't exactly a joke, even if it seems radical. Sentries aren't really used much in openings anymore. Adding this type of buff to the sentry would it gain at least some value in build orders and it could be a step in the right direction in making units besides the MSC more useful. Don't forget that blizz is considering moving evolution chamber tech drops into the later stages of the game (and send Zergs back to the same passive openings over and over) because Protoss are having trouble defending early lings. With a change like this, a sentry positioned in the mineral line would be able to protect against Zerglings for 11 seconds (22 if energy is sufficient) unless killed (surrounding it with probes would make this impossible, marines can still kill it though.). So many people wish the mothership core removed and gateway units buffed: giving the sentry this type of shield would in my (totally amateur) design perspective help with that, add some versatility to Protoss openings and nerf lingdrops, without removing early ling drops from the game. But didn't mean to derail the thread too much with an idea, although it is slightly relevant :D On a similar note, if this change to the Oracle were to go through, it's a step in a good direction: taking responsibility away from the MSC and adding defensive value to well positioned UNITS.  | ||
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
On March 14 2016 05:03 Liquid`Snute wrote: It wasn't exactly a joke, even if it seems radical. Sentries aren't really used much in openings anymore. Adding this type of buff to the sentry would it gain at least some value in build orders and it could be a step in the right direction in making units besides the MSC more useful. Don't forget that blizz is considering moving evolution chamber tech drops into the later stages of the game (and send Zergs back to the same passive openings over and over) because Protoss are having trouble defending early lings. With a change like this, a sentry positioned in the mineral line would be able to protect against Zerglings for 11 seconds (22 if energy is sufficient) unless killed (surrounding it with probes would make this impossible, marines can still kill it though.). So many people wish the mothership core removed and gateway units buffed: giving the sentry this type of shield would in my (totally amateur) design perspective help with that, add some versatility to Protoss openings and nerf lingdrops, without removing early ling drops from the game. But didn't mean to derail the thread too much with an idea, although it is slightly relevant :D On a similar note, if this change to the Oracle were to go through, it's a step in a good direction: taking responsibility away from the MSC and adding defensive value to well positioned UNITS. Perhaps make sentries provide units with +2 or +3 shield armor? That makes aesthetic sense and would make zerglings do -2 damage to probes as long as they have shields. I would find that to be interesting, actually. Another thing was the possibility of nerfing queen cargo size on overlords before doing what blizzard proposes as mostly I think the queen drops are problematic due to the queen countering air units. | ||
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joshie0808
Canada1024 Posts
On March 14 2016 05:03 Liquid`Snute wrote: It wasn't exactly a joke, even if it seems radical. Sentries aren't really used much in openings anymore. Adding this type of buff to the sentry would it gain at least some value in build orders and it could be a step in the right direction in making units besides the MSC more useful. Don't forget that blizz is considering moving evolution chamber tech drops into the later stages of the game (and send Zergs back to the same passive openings over and over) because Protoss are having trouble defending early lings. With a change like this, a sentry positioned in the mineral line would be able to protect against Zerglings for 11 seconds (22 if energy is sufficient) unless killed (surrounding it with probes would make this impossible, marines can still kill it though.). So many people wish the mothership core removed and gateway units buffed: giving the sentry this type of shield would in my (totally amateur) design perspective help with that, add some versatility to Protoss openings and nerf lingdrops, without removing early ling drops from the game. But didn't mean to derail the thread too much with an idea, although it is slightly relevant :D On a similar note, if this change to the Oracle were to go through, it's a step in a good direction: taking responsibility away from the MSC and adding defensive value to well positioned UNITS. LiquidSnute = LiquidSmart | ||
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Limniscate
United States84 Posts
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Elentos
55573 Posts
Why is the damn thing so fast again? | ||
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masterhots
1 Post
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Elentos
55573 Posts
On March 14 2016 05:57 masterhots wrote: Protoss could go mass oracle vs thor in this situation Well thank god nobody makes thors in TvP then. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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MrSunny
Australia73 Posts
I've already toyed with mass oracle into carrier PvT and PvZ. It's actually decent if you open mass oracle due to the constant use of utility spells. I can see this becoming too strong forcing vikings / corruptors. | ||
Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
On March 14 2016 06:10 MrSunny wrote: I play only protoss. seems good for pvp, but im afraid mass oracle will become even stronger vs marines and hydras. I've already toyed with mass oracle into carrier PvT and PvZ. It's actually decent if you open mass oracle due to the constant use of utility spells. I can see this becoming too strong forcing vikings / corruptors. how does this change the interaction against marines and hydras? | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
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