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On September 07 2015 22:35 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 22:19 Big J wrote:On September 07 2015 22:12 Cascade wrote:If I could get 5 hours of DKs time I think I'd prefer him to read and post on the lotv subforum 1 hour per week for a month. But yeah, won't happen I think.  He used to. He used the name ZerglingShepard1 and gave insight why zerg was too weak and proposed changes to see how people would like them. He was banned for no reason. Hahaha, classic TL moderation. "The Patch" was a nice little chat between some of the semi-pros that were on there. I always enjoy hearing Morrow's point of view for some reason (maybe because I am a mapmaker at heart). From the vague memory I have of it (I may have been drinking quite a bit earlier that day) they did kind of ramble on about things sometimes. And I thought it was kind of amusing how beastyqt seemed to be afraid of the word algorithm. But I don't think that DK would need to get in on it. I agree that some notes could be taken and presented in a nice concise format. I really wonder about that whole "korean progamers say..." thing, tho. EDIT: Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 22:48 Hider wrote:On September 07 2015 21:22 Clubfan wrote:
I actually really liked "The Patch", especially that every guest gave his insight for the matchups, it helped me understanding LotV dynamics quite a bit. I also wanted to like it, but I just couldn't breathe whenever Theo talked. I understand he has alot on his mind he wants to get out, but I would like him to speak slower. Unfortunately, most progamers aren't exactly known for their ability to speak. It was also frustrating whenever they misunderstood each other, such as the 'mule rally point' thing, where he eventually figured out that his suggestion was indeed similar to what Morrow was saying. For this reason, maybe, it could be better if the participants had some prep-time to consider what they want to say about each subject, so they have a chance to formulate things. Which is again why it would be better for DK to read the notes on such a discussion. That said, DK could of course bring some insights himself in the same way that the community feedback updates provide insight from Blizzard's PoV - IF the show is planned out better in advance and maybe like an hour max.
these semi-pros as you like to call them are as well versed in LOTV as anyone, Theo was rank 1 in LOTV just yesterday, Lambo and I both float around the top 16, Beasty has probably won more online cups so far than anyone, and idk how much MorroW has been playing but I always enjoy listening to his opinions and thought process. This panel wasn't picked lightly, you make it sound like its some tier-2 people discussion when in fact these were some of the best guests you could get period and the discussion we had was of the highest level as far as LOTV is concerned.
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On September 07 2015 22:57 NonY wrote:
No, not productive for the development of the game. The show contains good feedback for the beta and he should be aware of feedback but it's not presented in a time-efficient manner and he doesn't need to answer to it with words. He could maybe listen to an audio rip of the show on 2x during his commute if no one is willing to do the work of converting the show into a feedback-friendly format. But actually go on the show? He needs to be working on the game.
I think Catz wrote the suggestions including numbers down and will give them to blizzard.
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On September 07 2015 23:02 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 22:35 a_flayer wrote:On September 07 2015 22:19 Big J wrote:On September 07 2015 22:12 Cascade wrote:If I could get 5 hours of DKs time I think I'd prefer him to read and post on the lotv subforum 1 hour per week for a month. But yeah, won't happen I think. He used to. He used the name ZerglingShepard1 and gave insight why zerg was too weak and proposed changes to see how people would like them. He was banned for no reason. Hahaha, classic TL moderation. "The Patch" was a nice little chat between some of the semi-pros that were on there. I always enjoy hearing Morrow's point of view for some reason (maybe because I am a mapmaker at heart). From the vague memory I have of it (I may have been drinking quite a bit earlier that day) they did kind of ramble on about things sometimes. And I thought it was kind of amusing how beastyqt seemed to be afraid of the word algorithm. But I don't think that DK would need to get in on it. I agree that some notes could be taken and presented in a nice concise format. I really wonder about that whole "korean progamers say..." thing, tho. EDIT: On September 07 2015 22:48 Hider wrote:On September 07 2015 21:22 Clubfan wrote:
I actually really liked "The Patch", especially that every guest gave his insight for the matchups, it helped me understanding LotV dynamics quite a bit. I also wanted to like it, but I just couldn't breathe whenever Theo talked. I understand he has alot on his mind he wants to get out, but I would like him to speak slower. Unfortunately, most progamers aren't exactly known for their ability to speak. It was also frustrating whenever they misunderstood each other, such as the 'mule rally point' thing, where he eventually figured out that his suggestion was indeed similar to what Morrow was saying. For this reason, maybe, it could be better if the participants had some prep-time to consider what they want to say about each subject, so they have a chance to formulate things. Which is again why it would be better for DK to read the notes on such a discussion. That said, DK could of course bring some insights himself in the same way that the community feedback updates provide insight from Blizzard's PoV - IF the show is planned out better in advance and maybe like an hour max. these semi-pros as you like to call them are as well versed in LOTV as anyone, Theo was rank 1 in LOTV just yesterday, Lambo and I both float around the top 16, Beasty has probably won more online cups so far than anyone, and idk how much MorroW has been playing but I always enjoy listening to his opinions and thought process. This panel wasn't picked lightly, you make it sound like its some tier-2 people discussion when in fact these were some of the best guests you could get period and the discussion we had was of the highest level as far as LOTV is concerned.
Oh I'm sorry, I'm just nostalgic for the Broodwar days (you silly foreigner!). I really didn't mean it personal and I certainly valued the insights of all players on the panel.
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Dear David,
Please hire Morrow for your balance team.
Thank you.
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This is a wonderful idea, I would love to get David Kim on the show with CatZ.
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i'd rather have DK communicate in the manner he is now and focus his time on refining and fine tuning LotV. I don't want to see him on this show. When LotV is released and he has more free time then he can run around kissing babies and hugging old ladies. right now at the stage of development LotV is in his time is too valuable.
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Hm, I don't know if time is too valueable.
To me it sounds like the actual patch-creation only takes a few hours at most for a team. You get someone experienced like decemberscalm on the editor with instructions and he can probably implement the changes on his own in less than a day.
And the implementation on the server is not being done by someone like DK.
So basically, of the 2weeks in between patches the "actual work" on changing the features is pretty short and probably not being done by David Kim to begin with. The real deal is the testing, discussing and smoothing behind the curtains and other occupations like refining Allied Commanders and stuff like that. And I personally wouldn't mind if DK or someone else would do less of those for one day and sit down in some relaxed atmosphere and just talk freely about the game. Not that this is realistic because people would just crucify blizzard after it either way, but I would really like to hear a discussion with professionals (or even better, participate myself), TT
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i think its more efficient via the weekly updates as he is doing now. people can comment during those updates. its clear he is reading the feedback. if he wants to speak personally with people whose opinions he deems valuable he can easily contact them.
Anything said that is publicly available immediately becomes a political hot potato and slows down the development process.
At this stage of development for LotV the less politics the better. Private communications are better at this stage. Public/political stuff is better suited before and/or after the development crunch stage that is currently going on within Blizzard for LotV.
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On September 08 2015 00:30 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i think its more efficient via the weekly updates as he is doing now. people can comment during those updates. its clear he is reading the feedback. if he wants to speak personally with people whose opinions he deems valuable he can easily contact them.
Anything said that is publicly available immediately becomes a political hot potato and slows down the development process.
At this stage of development for LotV the less politics the better. Private communications are better at this stage. Public/political stuff is better suited before and/or after the development crunch stage that is currently going on within Blizzard for LotV.
Yeah, you are of course right. Sadly. 
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haha dat troll...Sure DK is going to come without preapprouved questions :p
@Big J
if DK or someone else would do less of those for one day and sit down in some relaxed atmosphere and just talk freely about the game ahaha, are you high ? Free in your mind ?
So if i understood correctly, Thepatch is going on the air when there is a new patch ? So Catz, you have work till 2020 XD
My first impression was "it's a bit messy" because with 5.47.54secondes well postproduction will be your friend ^^
I think it may also be a good idea to bring pple from different level (casu, amateurs like in this first episode , semipro and pro)
edit: i scroll a bit on the vod...Catz...NEVER NEVER smoke on tv
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21248113
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12205251
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On September 07 2015 19:50 ROOTCatZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Naturally, I would LOVE to have David Kim on if he was down for it, would love for him to join the discussion, agree and disagree with us and be open to take feedback, that'd be great. On September 07 2015 19:40 Frankenberry wrote:So I think the idea behind the show is good but it needs some fine tuning. Maybe you don't have to over each single change in such detail but try to have a broader discussion on balance changes and how they relate to each other, so the discussion about "chronoboost" isn't separated from other macro mechanics and their impact on the game. Also a bit more structure on the show would be nice, so its maybe 2-3 hours long and not 5  other than that I actually listened to the whole thing (While playing path of exile) and I enjoyed it =) Hi, I try to read most feedback, the thing is we didn't plan on how long each topic took, the cool thing is we 'skipped' a lot of topics and elaborated as much as we felt was necessary to get all of our points across on other topics, I actually loved that dynamic and putting a time constrain in it would fuck with the "magical" aspect of the show, even tho last episode was 6 hours of discussion I was interested the whole way through and I think we had really interesting discussions (and since its the first show, intro was a bit longer, and we went over the latest 2 updates, where it'll normally just be 1 (so possibly about 1/2 the time ) Glad you enjoyed otherwise Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 19:11 tokinho wrote:
Well the patch took 5 hours and there was no summary, i don't think it a very effective use of his time. Sorry you didn't enjoy, I literally thought of the show yesterday and launched it today, I think it's the kind of thing that's urgent and has been missing from sc2, an actual reliable source of discussion about sc2, most specifically LOTV recent patches and updates, I want for Blizzard to look at the show as a focus group and take feedback from, lenght is the least of my concerns, I enjoy a good discussion and its not like we were just jerking around the same things for no reason, we kept talking because we kept having a point to get across, something to agree or disagree with, if that's not your cup of tea that's cool, but I personally was happy it took almost 6 hours. Summary as in Summary of the show? you or any member of the community could do that just as easily as I could, and as much as we might consider doing more things like that and putting it up on youtube and what not, more editing, more production - that means more of a time investment on our end doing something that isn't really our 'responsibility', this was the pilot episode of a show I thought of yesterday, but the focus of this show isn't entertainment, or even viewership, so discussions will continue to take as long as they must.
In regards to- "sorry you didn't enjoy", its not that I didn't enjoy, its going to take me 2 weeks to watch the whole thing. I saw only about half an hour near then beginning and about 20 minutes 4 hours in. A lot of the information i saw was I like this, this or that thing. I didn't see any actionable points of change in the game from the show, so a summary helps. I had a lot more time before to do this sort of thing, but lack time right now. I think its better to maybe have David Kim on for a very small portion of actionable points and a brief summary. I'll try and do a summary of the pilot when i have more time.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
I had no idea that this was a thing and seem to have missed it, where can i watch the VOD?
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Come David Kim, grace us with your insight
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Hello David
Please come to Catz's awesome show
Also please join TL and post every now and then
Ty
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I think it would be worthwhile if you guys did up a summary of the discussion after each episode, had each changes ratings by each panelist and a paragraph description explaining why they gave that rating, and then took that to DKim. 6 hours is way too long-winded for bringing him on, but a 45-minute summary of discussion topics, ratings, and explanations could actually be well worth his time.
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Never going to happen guys. Or it would be completely fluff answers with zero real information.
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David Kim,
Just because the win rates are even for every race, doesnt mean the game is "balanced". please make a change to your team's objective and take out the end goal from being equal in percentages to making the game design more fair and balanced.
oh and plz come on the show.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On September 08 2015 07:56 sc2chronic wrote:
David Kim,
Just because the win rates are even for every race, doesnt mean the game is "balanced". please make a change to your team's objective and take out the end goal from being equal in percentages to making the game design more fair and balanced.
oh and plz come on the show.
That being said, win rates being roughly even is a prerequisite to making that work well.
55/45 for a reasonably short period of time is fine with a bit of caution but fair, reasonable competition doesn't exist any more at 60/40 - 65/35, the statistics are awful when you look at best of 5 to best of 7 games (which exist largely to increase the chances of the better player winning).
In practice they amplify any imbalance or skill difference between the players.
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I quite enjoyed what I watched, but I naturally tuned out after about 2 hours. Like said in this thread, you don't have to go into every small detail, maybe hit the main big points of each section (which naturally would make the scores more volatile to change, since the minor things may make a point or two difference).
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EPT
