Making a list like this was always problematic. With nearly 5 years of gameplay there is a huge amount of information to parse. First, there is prestige of a tournament, measuring and making judgements on the GSL as compared to international LANS, tournament formats, and paths taken to the Championships. Next, the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats: the increased talent pool in modern times, the mass migration of KeSPA pros, and then the mass retirement of former KeSPA players and ESF players. Consistency over a long period of time as compared to peak/clutch has often been considered one of the most important measures, but their effect on the game itself is equally important. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments. Blizzcon is at the highest because after 2013 it became the end all for the year, increasing the amount of pressure to win it. GSL is next as it has had the best format since Jan 2011, has the most preparation per round and has the best competition. The format and amount of players is what puts it slightly above the other Korean LANs like OSL, SSL, KeSPA/Hot6ix Cup, WCS KR 2012 and WCG KR. International tournaments are roughly below them, though depending on the player pool it can go all the way up being very close to GSL levels of prestige if many top players attended the event.
It is inevitable that many will argue for or against the inclusion or exclusion of certain players in the overall top 15 depending on what criteria you’ve used to judge their placing. However, as there is no definitive list to argue for or against, this is my attempt to codify a list of the all time greats as of this very moment.
Rain vs Taeja - WCS Season 1 Finals 2013 Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
Rain vs PartinG - GSL 2014 Season 1 Group C ro16 Set 1 | Set 2
The truth of the matter is that in many ways the first God-like players of each race had untold influence on the way the race was played for years to come. For terran it was Mvp. For zerg it was Nestea. And for protoss it was MC. And MC was in many ways responsible not only for the builds, the compositions and the overarching meta, but also the mindset in which players approached playing protoss. After all he was the greatest of their race in the early days by a mile. The only player who came close was Inca and that form lasted for about a month.
Of course there were others that really pushed forward protoss thinking. HerO was the first to really force a style of constant multitask (especially warp prism usage). Late 2011 and early 2012 was the first wave of protoss revolution as players like PartinG and Squirtle remade PvT to what it is today. Others like Creator stubbornly plucked away at forcing double forge styles in all matchups. Genius became the single best player at max army engagements (fun fact, in his 2012 GSL run, Genius had never lost a max army engagement until the finals). Yet none of them could tame the chaos that was PvP. They could dominate it, they could crush their opponents, they could get absurd win rates, but it was never because they had found a solution to the matchup. It was because they were better at mind games or at skill or had scouted better. No one could tame that chaos until Rain.
Look at the PvP meta before Rain. Even if you count the numerous patches they needed to put in that allowed Rain to solve the matchup, it was very much a war zone. A combination of coin flips and fast paced aggression. PvP before Rain was very much like looking into the mind of MC. It is no surprise that during PvPs most volatile state, MC was the best PvP player in the world by far. The mind games, the aggression, the control and the intuition needed to be consistent at that matchup was uncanny and MC had that in spades. Which made it all the more impressive when Rain came and solved PvP. He looked at the matchup, codified builds and reactions in every possible scenario so that any other highly skilled protoss player could get into the mid or late game on an even playing field or slightly behind no matter what their opponent threw at them.
Rain had taken this broken matchup and recreated it into his own image. PvP today, even in HotS is very much the legacy of the strategic thought Rain had put into the game yeas ago in 2012 at the end of WoL. And that very same mindset that allowed him to tame PvP was omnipresent in both of Rain’s other matchups. In many ways both in approach and mindset, Rain was the complete polar opposite of MC. Where MC would say attack, Rain would say defend. Where MC’s instincts yelled “Kill him”, Rain’s instincts yelled “Defend harder.” And while he was not the only protoss to do this (Creator being a great example of an extremely defensive protoss), Rain has been able to keep doing it at a consistent level throughout his entire SC2 career. And that is what makes Rain interesting. Protoss is a race that very much favors mind games, tricks, aggressive timings, but Rain looked at the race and came to realize that you could just as easily make it a streamlined, reactive, defensive race that built small advantages throughout the early and mid game to crush the opponent in the late game. Without Rain the very landscape of how protoss is played and viewed would be completely different and likely would have remained chaotic.
Play Style:
When you watch Rain play, you can tell he is a man of great pride. He completely utterly believes that even if the opponent knows what he is doing, he should be able to win no matter what the circumstances. In terms of player style, he may actually be most similar to DRG. DRG hits his peak strength in the mid to late-mid game in order to maximize his effectiveness. For Rain, he hits his peak strength after he has completely bypassed the early and mid game and gone into the late game where his superior understanding of composition, deathball command and patience can take control of the game. And this is all supported by his incredible builds, mechanics, and defensive instincts.
Later in his career, Rain hit a wall as he came to realize that playing stable macro builds alone wasn't enough and he has started to include many more all-ins into his arsenal (possibly a product of his long term friendship with PartinG). The effect of this was that his macro games became that much stronger as opponents could no longer blindly cut corners against Rain.
Yet for all of Rain’s strengths, he does have a few key weaknesses. I talked about his predictive builds earlier and it was something Mvp used to destroy him. Another weakness is that he does not know how to deal with a player who can outmatch him in the end game. The largest examples of this being in some PvP series like PartinG or Zest and more specifically in some of his games against Taeja and Maru. Without the aggressive mindset of a player like MC or PartinG, Rain has a hard time making comebacks against players that are superior to him in army control.
Difference between Rain and MarineKing:
This was a bit more clear cut. Rain has 2 Korean LAN victories: OSL, and Hot6ix. Beyond that he got second at OSL and won WCS Asia 2012. Even his top 4 finishes have been much more impressive in terms of players he’s beaten overall. Take a look:
Paths Rain Tier 1: OSL 2012: MKP, DRG, JangBi, PartinG, Last, DRG GSL Season 4 2012: Beat ByuN twice, lost to Happy, Taeja, Polt, HerO, loss to Mvp OSL 2013: Keen, Bomber, hyvaa, loss to First, “win against Fantasy”, tiebreaker match 2-0 First, 1-1 hyvaa, Supernova, Bomber, loss to Maru Hot6ix Cup: Symbol, Dear, Soulkey GSL Season 1 2014: Solar twice, loss to herO, Parting, Classic, herO, loss to Zest IEM Cologne: HerO, Hyun, Jjakji, loss to Polt
Tier 2: WCS Asia: herO, HerO, Parting WCS Global 2012: loss to BabyK, Idra, loss to Creator IEM San Jose: HuK, TRUE, ForGG, Bomber, loss to herO
MarineKing Tier 1: WCG 2011: Oz, sC, GuMiho, Happy, loss to Mvp WCG 2012: PartinG, loss to YongHwa GSL Open 2: Fruitdealer, Kyrix, Rainbow, lost to Nestea GSL Jan 2011: Jinro (Bo1), Rainbow (Bo1), NaDa, Jinro, loss to Mvp GSL WC: MC, loss to Mvp GSL ST: Loss to MMA Hot6ix: Stats, herO, PartinG, Zest, loss to sOs
Tier 2: MLG Winter Arena: Losira, Naniwa, viOLet, PartinG, HuK, DRG MLG Winter Championship: Ganzi, MC, PartinG, DRG MLG Spring Championship: Symbol, Stephano, loss to DRG, loss to Alicia Iron Squid 2: Taeja, Hero, MC, loss to Life
Of course there are Marineking’s MLG runs to consider, but overall the depth of Rain’s Tier 1 runs are just stronger. In addition to that, while MKP revolutionized marine control, Rain solved PvP in WoL, has had multiple contributions in both PvZ and PvT and his very approach and mindset as to how the game is looked at and played has been dispersed among the pro population. In terms of pure influence Rain’s was much higher. And finally overall consistency: Rain was top 3 protoss for the latter half of 2012 and a top 5 protoss for for all of 2013 and 2014. In total that is 2.5 years at the top. MarineKing in comparison had a peak consistency of top 2 terran for only 1.5 years and was never a truly great player after the queen patch.
#9 | INnoVation, Man Inside the Machine
Tier 1: 2012 GSL Season 3: Top 4 MLG Winter Championship 2013: 3rd GSL 2013 Season 1: 2nd GSL Season 1 Finals 2013: 1st OSL 2013: Top 4 DH Bucharest 2013: 2nd - Only missing Soulkey and a few top protoss DH Winter 2013: Top 4 GSL 2014 Season 3: 1st
Tier 2: ASUS Northcon: Top 4 DH Bucharest 2014: Top 4
Greatest Series Played: INnoVation vs Taeja - WCS Season 2 Finals Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
INnoVation vs Flash - MLG Winter Championship 2013 Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
INnoVation vs Supernova - GSTL Finals 2013 Final Set
INnoVation vs Curious - IEM NY Qualifiers Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
INnoVation vs Soulkey - Proleague 2013 Whirlwind Set 2
INnoVation vs Soulkey - IEM Katowice Qualifiers Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
INnoVation vs DRG - Code S 2013 Season 3 Ro32 Group F Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
The Korean KeSPA Terran (that is, KeSPA Terran that transferred over from BW) are all of very much a similar mold. They have high mechanics, are very aggressive, like to pull SCVs against protoss, are constantly on the attack and have trouble making in game strategic decisions. Instead they follow a flow chart of pre-automated commands to play the game out optimally in efficient fashion. Of course there are exceptions: Reality and Bbyong are remarkable in how they've deviated, while TY is a semi-exception. TY's play style is unique, but he harbors a lot of the same weak in game strategic decisions of the KeSPA Terran and follows a flow chart. Among all of KeSPA Terrans, INnoVation is the best. He is the prototype. He is the one that they aspire to be. He is a machine.
And yet looking at the way he plays and the decisions he’s made, there is a startling parallel between him and MarineKing. Both are extremely talented mechanical players. Both have made a massive impact on how their race is played. Both were players aiming to become the best in the world. Both were out-thought in their first ever GSL Finals. The difference was that MarineKing cried after his loss. INnoVation sniffed some flowers and stood awkwardly as Soulkey was given the trophy. Perhaps that is why it is so easy to write off INnoVation as a machine, an android, a cyborg. His play is clean and he is an efficient death dealing machine. His interviews are monotone, his answers utterly plain.
But if you look at his actions alone, it speaks to a very real human heart under that metal skin. He left KeSPA because he believed he could still be the best terran in Korea and become something of a Taeja-like player in the international scene. His expedition outwards had some moderate success, but nowhere near what he had hoped for. At the same time his results in Korea flagged (mostly because of the Blink Era) and INnoVation was forced to make a choice: he could either keep his freedom or return home and try to once more become the best player under KeSPA's regime.
Riding the wave of that switch, INnoVation swept his first GSL victory (though most of that run was done under Acer). It looked like INnoVation's revival was complete and going into 2015, he appeared to be the great threat to the regime of Zest. And then Life happened. Life went on a killing spree that he hadn't done since his 2012 run as he mauled his way through the greatest players on earth and it was in that moment that the two of them realized the exact same thing. The other player was in the way.
For the first time in his life INnoVation gave an interesting interview as he called Life a player that lacked fundamentals and predicted his easy victory. Life defeated him 3-2. Life called INnoVation the player that lacked fundamentals and in their fight at IEM it was Innovation who won a hard fought 3-2 series. For all his monotony and his utterly stoic face, INnoVation has made it clear that becoming the best in the world is now all that matters to him. And that Life is an eyesore and he will stop at nothing to defeat him.
Play Style:
For all the comparisons I made with INnoVation and MarineKing, INnoVation has a few things that have made him a stronger player overall. First is his methodical view in how he solves SC2 problems. Take his debut in 2012 WoL. More specifically he focused solely on his own build, refining it and his own mechanics to the point that he was literally winning games against zergs and protosses by left click moving his armies into the enemy, putting them on stop command and winning the fights on sheer number advantage alone. After he had come up with the most refined builds, he started learning how to micro his units while churning out an endless stream of units. He then came to the realization that if he could put enough pressure and harassment and attack on the opponent that he could take the strategical aspects of SC2 out of the equation and try to force the game into a battle of mechanics, a battle in which he was the superior.
It is that methodical strategic outlook focused on efficiency which has made him the model in which KeSPA teams have tried to mold their terrans into. After all, strategy, tactics, in-game decision making, game sense, those are all things that are extremely hard to develop no matter how many hours you put in. But if you follow the INnoVation model, you are bound to get get results at some point down the line once you master his style of standard play.Yet at the same time this came with a heavy price.
What happens when a player can play close to your level and you cannot smother him with mechanics alone? In those few cases, INnoVation has often lost such as in his series against Flash, Taeja, and Curious. Other problems he has is his mental toughness. He has broken down multiple times in critical ace matches (most notably against Soulkey in his finals and Life in the Ro8 2015 GSL). And finally, though rarely, there may be a player who can even out-do him at his own game. His series against DRG is one such example, and when it happens, all INnoVation can do is hope for his opponent to make a mistake instead of proactively searching for new solutions.
Difference between INnoVation and Rain:
The differential between INnoVation and Rain was fairly straightforward. Both had a similar level of consistency across the years as SC2 players. Rain never slumped, but his peaks were lower than INnoVation's. In terms of top tier tournaments, INnoVation has had more results in those and his GSL victory, GSL second place and Season 1 Finals victory are much stronger accomplishments in than Rain’s. INnoVation even had the path in his 2013 GSL run of literally beating the top 5 of the top 6 other players in the world (though the 6th beat him in the finals).
#8 | Zest, Dream Shatterer
Tier 1: GSL Season 1 2014 - 1st GSL Global Championship 2014 - 1st GSL Season 3 2014 - Top 4 IEM Toronto - 2nd Kespa Cup - 1st Hot6ix CUp - Top 4 IEM WC 2015 - 1st
Greatest Series Played: Zest vs sOs - KeSPA Cup 2014 Quarter Finals Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3 | Set 4 | Set 5
Zest vs DRG - Shoutcraft Invitational Ro8 Set 1 | Set 2
Zest vs Rain - GSL Season 3 2014 Quarter Finals Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
The very essence of competition is that no matter how strong you are, no matter how much you've done, slowly and inevitably someone will come up to take you out. In order to reach the top, in order to become the #1 player, in order to become the paragon, you must crush your opponents. Everyone has ambitions, everyone wants to be the best, but in SC2 only one can remain standing at the end to lift the trophy, only one will be celebrated as the Champion. In 2014 Zest was that Champion, Zest was the man who came in and shattered the dreams of nearly every other player he faced.
There were no warning signs. If you had asked anyone before 2014 who Zest was,the most information you could get out of the most die hard fan was “Oh that guy who changed his name from Wooki to P7GAB to Zest right?” Unlike other KeSPA protoss like Rain or herO or sOs or JangBi, there was nothing remarkable about him at all. When players like Rain were challenging for the OSL title, Zest was losing to Guemchi. Many think about Zest as this overnight success story, but that could not be further from the truth.
Zest spent 5 year in anonymity. 5 years drudging in practice as he saw players far more successful than him move on or retire or become Champions. 5 years of looking on as his peers passed him by. But in 2014, it was his turn to rise, his turn to take the dreams of others and smash them into dust. And he did it with a bang as he all-killed the star studded SKT and covered himself in the blood of his rival team. He then flowed with that momentum and won his GSL, denying soO 1st place once again.
That is the story of Zest and in a way the story of all Champions. To become the greatest player on earth, you must become a monster, someone who mercilessly destroys the hopes and aspirations of others to glorify yourself. In 2014, he spent the entire year killing SKT players and eliminating them again and again and again in Proleague and individual leagues. He spent just as much time denying soO chances to ever leave the Kong line. In an year where protoss had the largest depth of top tier players like herO, HerO (earlier in the year), Rain, Dear, sOs, Stats, Trap, and PartinG, Zest out did them all combined. Not since the end of 2011 Mvp have we seen such a dominant year from just one player.
Play Style:
In many ways Zest is extraordinarily similar to Rain. Rain remade PvP in his own image. Zest remade all of protoss play in his. Looking at Zest games, nothing he does seems particularly out of the ordinary and you’d be right. It is the small details, the slight variations of builds, the reactions and the decisions that have all been shaped by Zest. If Zest looks normal it is because he has shaped the way normal looks for protoss. In an era where the top 5 protoss players are all contenders to be Champions—players like Rain, sOs, herO and PartinG—it makes it all the more impressive to see that Zest has trumped them all.
Yet even Zest has weaknesses, weaknesses that have been exposed a few times. First his PvT is fairly weak, especially in the early game. This has more to do with his micro. Unlike the other top tier protoss players, Zest’s micro and control is generally much worse than theirs. The reason he does better is because of his superior game sense and his ability to avoid getting caught in bad situations. Yet if he can’t do it, if the terran can force him into a battle of micro, Zest often crumbles.
Another weakness is his stability. Zest very rarely plays a game where things go completely wild. When it does, his natural intelligence usually lets him eke out those wins. But against top tier players like herO and Taeja, that inexperience in wild situations, that small differential in decision making and reactive thinking, was exploited to leave Zest with little hope of recovering.
Difference between Zest and INnoVation
INnoVation by reputation was the best Korean terran in 2013, but had only ever lived up to that billing in the first half of the year. In the second half he had high results in LANs like DH Bucharest 2013, DH Winter 2013 and ASUS ROG, but could never get anywhere in Korea (or the season finals) after his loss to Maru. Zest on the other hand was undoubtedly #1 all year in 2014, winning three out of the six Korean LANs he entered. And even among the three he lost, his worst result was a Ro8. In both consistency and staying power at the top Zest is superior to INnoVation hands down. And then you take into account INnoVation's runs at the three LANs he had during 2013 in the latter half of the year:
DH Bucharest 2013: 2nd - loss to Crank, loss to Supernova, MMA, loss to Taeja DH Winter 2013: Top 4 - loss to Taeja, sOs, ForGG, JYP, loss to Patience Asus Northcon: Top 4 - loss to Life, San, loss to Jaedong
While I rank DH Bucharest 2013 and DH winner 2013 as tier 1 LANs (DH Winter was along the same lines of IPL5 and MLG Providence as being GSL level difficulty, DH Bucharest was only missing Soulkey and 2-3 more top tier protoss from reaching that level), INnoVation's runs there were unimpressive. His only significant win against MMA and he lost to Crank and SuperNova in the group stages and got upended by Taeja. At DH Winter 2013, he beat sOs and ForGG and a streaking JYP, but lost to Patience. At ASUS the only notable player he beat was San before losing to Jaedong. In terms of results and difficulty of competition, Zest’s 2014 was far stronger than INnoVation's 2013, even when you include INnoVation's GSL victory from 2014.
#7 | Nestea, The Smart Choice
Achievements:
Tier 1: GSL Open 2 - 1st GSL January 2011 - Top 4 GSL May 2011 - 1st GSL July 2011 - 1st Blizzcon 2011 - 2nd IPL 4 - 3rd
Tier 2: Iron Squid 1 - 3rd Iron Squid 2 - 3rd
Greatest Series Played: Nestea vs Choya - GSL Code S Jan 2011 Set 1 | Set 2 | Set 3
The easy choice would have been to move on. Nearing the age of 30, Nestea was already 5 years past the usual time when Korean BW players had given up the mouse. Players who had done more, who had shown more potential than him, had long given up. They told him he was too old, too slow, and his time was up. The smart choice would have been to move on, to let go. No one would have blamed him; in fact no one would have noticed. The only one who would have blamed Nestea was Nestea. And that was all it took and Nestea, completely incapable of giving up his dream, would take on the challenge one last time and the world would be his witness.
Unknown and unheralded, Nestea took the plunge once more. In 1 week of play, Nestea qualified for GSL Open 1. 1 month later, he won GSL Open 2 above living legend Boxer and the fan-favorite MKP. And the reign of Nestea began. He wasn’t changing the way zerg was played in obvious ways; he took what was there and he played it better. His decision making and reactive style put Nestea a level above the rest as he used his intelligence to score victory after victory.
Game after game, play after play, Nestea electrified the world with his audacity, genius and willpower. Nestea stopped a void ray 4 gate with a spore, a ling and 2 queens. He killed 20 thors with a 100 banelings. He became the master of base trade ZvT by making come from behind victories with baneling mines. It took the world 7 months to find a zerg that could even take 1 game off of him. Even then he was merely the best zerg in the entire world. It wasn’t until his second GSL title run that he became the Creator of the Universe. His first victim was Anypro. Anypro, infamous for going forge first 100% of the time. Nestea shocked the world by attempting the world’s first spine crawler rush in a televised game and crushed Anypro’s soul.
He then followed it up with one of the best and most memorable series of all time against sCfOu. It was a sublime series, a perfect moment of SC2 that showed the real potential of what the game had to offer. Game 5 was the pinnacle of SC2 at the time as sC's manic parade pushes and constant harassment confronted Nestea's counter attacks and defensive banelings. Those baneling land mines allowed Nestea to take the game by the skin of his teeth, and the often times shy Korean audience erupted in chants of "Lim Jae Duk! Lim Jae Duk!" This game personified who Nestea was, a man holding on to the edge of a cliff, the forces of the world trying to pry his last fingers and force him to let go. He was a man who spent 10 years with nothing to show for his name, but he was too stubborn to quit, too ambitious to make the smart choice.
That is the man we call Nestea. Since then he has set multiple records: First Champion to win 3 GSLs, first to win 3 GSLS against 3 different races, first to win a GSL Finals after losing the first game, first to go 4-0 in a finals, first to get a perfect record in a GSL run, first to stay in GSL Code S 10 times in a row. In many ways it was fitting indeed that Nestea joined the team Incredible Miracle, because his entire career has been a miracle.
In many ways I can’t help but feel Nestea shaped the way his entire team looked at their lives. First was about to retire from pro gaming altogether before Nestea gave him a talk about his future. Losira and Yoda became practically irrelevant for a year before they found their way back up. I sometimes think the entire core IM team didn’t retire solely because they’d feel ashamed to retire in front of man who had held onto that dream for 10 years.
Play Style:
Nestea is the only player who can say he innovated his race the way Mvp did his. (The only zerg players close to his influence are Stephano, whose builds all get nerfed into the ground, and Life.) Everything we know as the basic fundamentals almost all come from him and the way he played and looked at the game. Like all great men of thought, Nestea was a better innovator in a time when his race was weakest. The closest analogy to the weakness of zerg is the Blink Era for terran. Not only did the other races have strong early aggressive options while zerg had to fight with a 3 range queen, but the maps were tiny. Most of the maps from the early days are a quarter or at best half the size of the current map pool. Nestea had to fend off 11/11 rushes in distances shorter than the main base on Alterzim. With 3 range queens.
Nestea was generally a macro zerg that liked to scout what his opponents were doing and react to what builds or unit comps they were going for. He was famous for his muta ling/bling and had incredible muta micro—though he did have the tendency to fall asleep on them. In terms of APM he was always on the lower side, but he made sure to inject his larvae (one of the few early zergs to understand just how important that was). He also popularized droning to the 80-90+ mark and then constantly recycling an infinite amount of lings and banelings to crush his opponents.
In ZvZ he was instrumental in finding every build opener, every permutation of build, how to react to each build, how to transition, the compositions you could use in the early mid and late game. He used roaches, roach bane, roach hydra infestor and muta ling bling. The only matchup he wasn’t as influential in was ZvP (Stephano’s builds and compositions are still very much in use today), but he trademarked the infinite spine forest into mass mutalisk base trades that have given protoss players nightmares since the beginning of time.
Beyond that he also created numerous one off builds including the creep spine crawler rush, proxy hatch against terran (to creep the third and deny it from going down forever), and the lair roach bane overlord creep spore rush (which he used once in a Chinese major tournament and was copied a week later by Leenock who thanked him for the build).
Difference between Zest and Nestea
In overall achievements, Nestea and Zest are fairly similar. Zest was the best protoss player for all of 2014. Nestea was the best zerg player from 2010 to late 2011. And he remained one of the best zerg players for the majority of 2012 and had never left the Top 5 spot. In terms of consistency, Nestea’s was longer. Other than that Nestea had 6 major runs in Tier 1 tournaments and 2 major runs in tier 2 tournaments. Zest had 7 major runs in 7 major tournaments. Here are the paths they took for clarification:
Nestea:
Tier 1: GSL Open 2 - 1st - MC, Boxer, MKP GSL January 2011 - Top 4 - Polt, Boxer, Choya, loss to Mvp (bad format) GSL May 2011 - 1st - Jinro twice, Fruitdealer, Anypro, sC, Inca GSL July 2011 - 1st - July, Losira Blizzcon 2011 - Naniwa, Mvp, loss to Mvp IPL 4 - 3rd - aLive, PartinG, Squirtle, Stephano, loss to aLive, loss to Squirtle
Tier 2: Iron Squid 1 - 3rd - aLive, Leenock, jjakji, loss to Symbol, aLive Iron Squid 2 - 3rd - Thorzain, PartinG, Scarlett, loss to DRG, MKP
Zest
Tier 1: GSL Season 1 2014 - 1st - Trap, loss to Maru, Soulkey, Dear, sOs, Rain, soO GSL Global Championship 2014 - 1st - Parting, MMA, soO, PartinG GSL Season 3 2014 - Top 4 - loss to Rain, Soulkey, loss to Cure, Soulkey, Rain, loss to soO IEM Toronto - 2nd - loss to Taeja, Bunny, Polt, Yoda, Life, loss to Flash Kespa Cup - 1st - Pigbaby, sOs, Classic, herO Hot6ix CUp - Top 4 - loss to Bbyong, PartinG, Soulkey, loss to MarineKing IEM WC 2015 - 1st - Hydra, INnoVation, Bbyong, Trap
If you split it up, Nestea’s GSL Open 2 was similar to Zest’s KeSPA Cup. There Nestea beat the best protoss, a Top 5 terran, a Top 5 zerg and the best terran (Mvp had yet to enter the scene). In comparison Zest beat Pigbaby (a fairly hot protoss but only Top 10 at best), sOs, Classic and herO all in or close to the Top 5.
The next result were their Top 4 placings. There Nestea beat Polt, Boxer and Choya and lost to Mvp. Zest beat Soulkey twice and Rain once for his notable opponents. Fairly close though Zest’s list is still more competitive even after you include relative strengths of the scene.
After that is Nestea’s GSL May victory. There he beat a Top 5 terran twice, the 2nd best zerg, a Top 5 protoss, Top 3 terran and a Top 3 protoss. This is closest to Zest’s first GSL run where he beat a Top 10 P, a Top 5 Z, three more Top 5 protoss and the best zerg. In terms of relative strength, Nestea’s GSL was stronger but it’s balanced out by the stronger depth Zest had to wade through.
The next run was Nestea’s GSL July where he only beat two great players in July and Losira. This is comparable to Zest’s GSL Global Championship where he beat PartinG, MMA, soO and PartinG again. MMA was a non factor, but soO and PartinG were the best zerg and Top 5 P at the time. In terms of competitive edge, Zest wins out, but the larger player pool and the fact that Nestea didn’t drop a single map make it even.
Next we have to compare three tournaments at once. Nestea’s IPL 4, Iron Squid 1 and Iron Squid 2 against Zest’s IEM WC 2015, IEM Toronto and Hot6ix Top 4. Nestea’s IPL 4 was in a lot of ways more impressive than Zest’s IEM WC victory. The only godly player Zest had to beat in his run was INnoVation. The rest are upper class with Trap peaking close to Top 5 protoss. Nestea on the other hand beat a Top 3 terran, both top 2 protoss, the best foreigner (Top 5 Z) before losing to Top 3 terran and the best protoss. In pure competitive edge and format IPL 4 outweighs the IEM WC 2015, which is balanced a bit by Zest’s Hot6ix Cup run where he beat PartinG and Soulkey. However this leaves Nestea’s Iron Squid 1 and 2 runs where he played Top 5 terran, Top 5 zerg, Top 10 terran, Top 5 terran again, a Top 3 protoss, a top foreigner and a Top 10 terran in both those tournaments compared to Zest’s lone Toronto run where he beat a Top 3 terran, a top foreigner, a Top 10 terran, another Top 10 terran, and a top 5 zerg before losing to Flash. Even given the increase skill of today, Nestea’s double Iron Squid runs edge out Zest’s 2nd run at IEM Toronto.
Overall, looking at their paths, I ended up favoring Nestea slightly in terms of difficulty. He had played in more varied formats over a longer period of time. Yet you could still make the argument that in terms of raw skill today, Zest should be ahead. Yet there are two factors you have to include.
Adversity and Innovation. These factors are things I've mentioned before but have never had to bring up before this. But as we close towards the top, you need to nitpick every single factor for and against why the rankings land where they do. Put bluntly, Zest was dominant in an era where protoss was dominant. Of course this doesn't diminish his results as he ruled in an era with a large number of top tier protoss, but look at his tournament paths and how his runs have ended. More often than not he’s died to terrans. Because of how the meta worked, he nearly avoided that matchup for the entirety of his 2014 run.
Now look at Nestea. Zerg was at its weakest from 2010 all the way to the queen patch (which happened in mid 2012). While Zest has done great work for his race, in terms of innovation and refinement, Nestea very much built his race.
In the end it’s more than just the numbers, more than the stats, more than raw skill when talking about the greatest. It is about the impact the player has made on the game, the adversity they had to face.
#6 | MMA, "Get Off the Mat."
Achievements: Tier 1: GSL October 2011 - 1st GSL Blizzard Cup - 1st - Nestea, Leenock, Naniwa, Polt, Mvp, DRG WCS EU Season 2 2013 - Top 4 - loss to Naniwa, loss to MC WCS EU Season 3 2013 - 1st - duckdeok, Vortix, MC IEM Bucharest 2013 - Top 4 - Snute, Flash, YugiOh, ForGG, loss to INnoVation WCS EU Season 1 2014 - 2nd - loss to Welmu, loss to VortiX, Bunny, Mvp, Snute, San, loss to MC WCS EU Season 3 2014 - 1st - YoDa, loss to Golden, ForGG, San, YoDa Blizzcon 2014 - 2nd - StarDust, Bomber, Classic, loss to Life GSL Season 1 2015 - Top 4 - Dark, INnoVation, TY, loss to PartinG IPL 4 - Top 4 - loss to MKP, Polt, Stephano, loss to Squirtle
Tier 2: Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol MLG Anaheim - 2nd - loss to Rain, Naniwa, DRG, Ganzi, Boxer, loss to Mvp IPL 3 - Top 4 - Puma, loss to Lucky
Tier 3: MLG Columbus - 1st - July, Idra, Losira IEM WC 2012 - 3rd - viOLet, loss to Puma
“Every player tastes defeat. However the best players, as a tribute to all their efforts, will give everything they’ve got to stand up again.” - Darrell Royal
DongRaeGu may be one of the best IDs in SC2 because it informs us so much about his character, his background and his motives. It is fitting then that his rival had one of the other great IDs, MMA. Because MMA is a fighter, one who had been dealt an injury and was forced to retire from mixed martial arts. But he took his competitive attitude and his hard work and he went into BW and then later SC2.
And in many ways, MMA’s entire career has been a neverending fight. From the way he plays to how his career panned out. From the beginning, MMA felt like he was destined for greatness. He was chosen by Boxer. He was coached by Ryu Won (one of the truly great coaches of SC2). He found himself in a team he loved with a player he had idolized, and he called himself the Son of Boxer. So it was then that MMA’s career took a huge plunge as the SlayerS drama unfolded into the complete dissolution of SlayerS.
MMA was figuratively knocked out. The BL/infestor patch had come in which perfectly dealt with his style of play. He was abandoned and reviled by his former team. He was left with nothing; his form had completely fallen off. A normal pro would have retired. But MMA was no normal pro. MMA could still hear it in the back of his head. He could still taste the electric atmosphere as he walked down the path of Blizzcon. He wanted more than anything in his entire life to make it there again.
In boxing there is a figure of speech that goes, “Get off the mat”. It means once you've been beaten, you need to get back up to prove otherwise. And MMA had been knocked out more than once. Yet he persevered over and over and over again until he was able to get on one knee. He then fell off again only to push himself back up nearly 3 years after his last triumph on a Blizzcon stage. Against all odds, against circumstance, against time, against some of the best players in the world, MMA had overcome it all to stand upon the greatest stage of SC2 once more.
In all of SC2, the only players who have had a similar career arc are DRG and Bomber. DRG, years after his prime, was able to win Red Bull and get to the Ro8 of GSL. Bomber took 3 years of disappointments and being called a “third rate” terran by Tastosis before he got to win the WCS Season 2 Finals. Yet neither of them have ever quite captured the public imagination as MMA has.
He may have started off his career as the Son of Boxer, but it is clear now more than ever that is a discredit to MMA. Boxer may have created one of the greatest esports legacies of all time, but MMA has stepped out of that shadow. He has made his own career and with it one of the greatest legacies of SC2.
Play Style:
MMA is very much a fast paced aggressive player who likes to disrupt his opponents plans with drop play. This is especially interesting because WoL medviacs did not have speed boost. You were taking larger risks of losing your medivacs on the way there, being attacked when it went out and getting shot down in its return. But it was also because of that risk that MMA’s style during WoL was so exciting to watch. The only player who was even more committed to drops and multi-pronged harass was GuMiho.
But because they were so dedicated to drop play, it meant that when speed boost came out for HotS, their style was naturally countered. While it seems illogical, think about it like this: once Blizzard implemented speed boost they decided that protoss and zerg defense wasn’t strong enough, so they created the mothership core and increase muta speed and regen. Zerg and protoss players acquired better tools to counter the MMA/GuMiho style, which in turn made it more ineffective. In addition, every other terran could now emulate them and with decreased risks since they could now do the same kind of drop harass in faster time, with less skill, and with better retention. This mass drop style eventually turned from niche strategy only two players could master into a normal form of play, which forced opponents to develop stronger responses.
Later on in his career, MMA took to more normal standard styles of play, especially in his TvP. Even though players gradually improved their mechanics, MMA was still able to maximize his own APM to keep up. After falling out of favor, the drop style terran is back in flavor, and you can still see some of MMA's old flair depending on the map, opponent and race.
Difference between MMA and Nestea
When I was drafting the list I initially had Nestea above MMA. After all, Nestea had the prestige of the triple GSL victor, was a Godlike innovator in a time when zerg was weak, was a player who had multiple deep runs in the GSL and had gone to few but strong events. As I listed accomplishment after accomplishment, player after player, it became clear however that MMA own list dwarfed even Nestea's enviable resume. MMA had two GSL wins of his own and faced both personal and professional adversity in order to succeed. He created his own style that enthralled as much as it prevailed, and his relevance after 5 arduous years remains impressive.
List feels good, but Rain above Maru? (and even INnoVation above Maru tbh) Also that means that TaeJa is Top5. I can't wait to see the Part3 thread explode in accusations of Liquid'Bias
Rain makes the top ten and Bomber doesn't make the top 15...lol. Other than that I agree with these 5 pretty much although apparently Polt is gonna be top 5 which is pretty crazy. Probably Polt, Taeja, MC, Life, Mvp from 5-1
Also just realized you disrespected the shit out of Parting smh
On April 19 2015 01:15 Koektrommel wrote: Where can I send a complaint about this ranking? I would like to disregard all the work put into it, because it does not agree with my gut feeling.
On April 19 2015 01:10 Yorkie wrote: Rain makes the top ten and Bomber doesn't make the top 15...lol. Other than that I agree with these 5 pretty much although apparently Polt is gonna be top 5 which is pretty crazy. Probably Polt, Taeja, MC, Life, Mvp from 5-1
Also just realized you disrespected the shit out of Parting smh
That the correct order in my opinion only if GSLs hold enough weight. Otherwise taeja above MC. Also, although there is good argument for life as #1, I feel like the rankings are a year early to confirm that spot as his.
On April 19 2015 01:10 Yorkie wrote: Rain makes the top ten and Bomber doesn't make the top 15...lol. Other than that I agree with these 5 pretty much although apparently Polt is gonna be top 5 which is pretty crazy. Probably Polt, Taeja, MC, Life, Mvp from 5-1
Also just realized you disrespected the shit out of Parting smh
That the correct order in my opinion only if GSLs hold enough weight. Otherwise taeja above MC. Also, although there is good argument for life as #1, I feel like the rankings are a year early to confirm that spot as his.
On April 19 2015 01:15 Koektrommel wrote: Where can I send a complaint about this ranking? I would like to disregard all the work put into it, because it does not agree with my gut feeling.
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
So Rain is 10th. That's an interesting choice. I'd forgotten that there were really two periods where he enjoyed a lot of success. Based on pure results I wouldn't put him 10th, but it's true that he has had considerable influence on the game. Players left for evaluation for the top 5 are PartinG, herO, Polt, Taeja, MC, Life and Mvp; PartinG and herO being the outliers, since herO's main achievements are IEM who's level can't be equated to a Korean LAN, and PartinG though extremely consistent and having won a few top tournaments can't ever have been considered dominant. Oh, and Bomber too, but he doesn't come close either.
So that leaves MC, Life, Mvp, Polt and Taeja. The top two are obviously Life and Mvp, maybe I'm crazy but I think I favour Life over Mvp. Traditionally, I'd have put MC as third, but in the past year his cumulative results have looked similar to TaeJa or Polt. He still has the edge in influence to the game though. I guess I still think it should be MC, TaeJa, Polt, though I expect it'll be TaeJa, MC, Polt, and no combination of them would really surprise me.
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
the bracket Bomber played in that tournament was about equivalent to a 2010 tournament. foreigners, koreigners, jaedong in the final. wow super impressed!!! /s
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
the bracket Bomber played in that tournament was about equivalent to a 2010 tournament. foreigners, koreigners, jaedong in the final. wow super impressed!!! /s
Beat a Taeja that had just shrekt Rain on a level never before seen. And you want to call him a Koreigner? LOL
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
Every terran that played in GSL > anything Bomber did in 2010 Mvp, MMA, Polt > anything Bomber did in 2011 TaeJa & Marineking > anything Bomber did in 2012 Maru winning OSL > anything Bomber did in 2013 Innovation winning GSL > anything Bomber did in 2014
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
Maru winning OSL > anything Bomber did in 2013 Innovation winning GSL > anything Bomber did in 2014
Being good for one month is not more important than being good for an entire year I don't care what tournament you won
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote: [quote] bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote: [quote] bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
Maru winning OSL > anything Bomber did in 2013 Innovation winning GSL > anything Bomber did in 2014
Being good for one month is not more important than being good for an entire year I don't care what tournament you won
Sorry that stuchiu objectively determined that you're wrong based off his rating criteria
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
INnoVation did far more than him, as did Maru
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote: [quote] If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote: [quote] If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
Maru winning OSL > anything Bomber did in 2013 Innovation winning GSL > anything Bomber did in 2014
Being good for one month is not more important than being good for an entire year I don't care what tournament you won
Sorry that stuchiu objectively determined that you're wrong based off his rating criteria
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
I'd arguably take MK's MLG Championship over that in terms of difficulty if not prestige
Wins over MC, PartinG, DRG twice vs Grubby, First, Scarlett, TaeJa, Jaedong Not to mention the GSL silvers
You have to keep in mind that to qualify for this event Bomber was playing in OSL and he beat Hurricane, Keen, Flash, Bbyong, Innovation (!), and First 3-0 who was playing amazing PvT at the time.
While i don't doubt that this list is accurate for the criteria you chose, i think you overvalue "innovation" and foreign tournaments here. Seeing taeja that high on the list (i mean he surely is in the top 5) is just weird to me. I read your blog and i respect all the work you did for this though. Overall enjoyable read and it would be really interesting to see other people try to do a list of their own (with reasoning!) to compare it to
Well, the order may be different, but these 5 will definitely be on the list next week. There's simply nobody else.
If this is the top 5 then Polt is getting massively disrespected. if Polt is number 5 than Parting is being massively disrespected
polit is definetely in the top 5, parting isn't
I have Parting around 7 or 8 my point is whichever one out of Parting and Polt isn't in the top 5 isn't even in the top 15 which is why I said "massively disrespected"
Well, the order may be different, but these 5 will definitely be on the list next week. There's simply nobody else.
If this is the top 5 then Polt is getting massively disrespected. if Polt is number 5 than Parting is being massively disrespected
polit is definetely in the top 5, parting isn't
I have Parting around 7 or 8 my point is whichever one out of Parting and Polt isn't in the top 5 isn't even in the top 15 which is why I said "massively disrespected"
ye that's true. definetely parting over leenock or mkp. sucks
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
Well, the order may be different, but these 5 will definitely be on the list next week. There's simply nobody else.
If this is the top 5 then Polt is getting massively disrespected. if Polt is number 5 than Parting is being massively disrespected
polt is definetely in the top 5, parting isn't
parting rarely wins stuff. he isn't top 5
Parting is definitely top 5 or me and the writer are gonna have a talk ;p. If you check his results he's actually won quite a few tournaments. Also he re-defined pvt entirely, has been the longest player in code s ever, created the soul train which is probably the most famous build in sc2 history. And only recently has he actually had the chance to play in many foreign events which he's won quite a few of.
TBH though I think OP messed up somewhere cause all of the 6-7 possible candidates for top 5 should have been somewhere on this list xD.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
INnoVation did far more than him, as did Maru
Wow look here where you specifically mentioned you were talking about 2013 in response to my post talking about 2013 and 2014! Wow!
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Well, the order may be different, but these 5 will definitely be on the list next week. There's simply nobody else.
If this is the top 5 then Polt is getting massively disrespected. if Polt is number 5 than Parting is being massively disrespected
polt is definetely in the top 5, parting isn't
parting rarely wins stuff. he isn't top 5
Parting is definitely top 5 or me and the writer are gonna have a talk ;p. If you check his results he's actually won quite a few tournaments. Also he re-defined pvt entirely, has been the longest player in code s ever, created the soul train which is probably the most famous build in sc2 history. And only recently has he actually had the chance to play in many foreign events which he's won quite a few of.
TBH though I think OP messed up somewhere cause all of the 6-7 possible candidates for top 5 should have been somewhere on this list xD.
Your joking right? DRG still holds the record for most code s runs
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
Stuchiu seems to also consider innovation and influence, and I'd tend to discard Bomber because he doesn't innovate very much nor does his play have great influence on other Terrans, even when it is successful.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
On April 19 2015 01:08 JoshSuth wrote: There are still SIX players missing that should be in the Top 15... herO PartinG MC TaeJa Life Mvp
Which one didn't make the list?!
I think herO and PArtinG will miss out for Polt. herO hasnt dont anything great in Korea yet in individual leagues. He's a proleague beast though. I'm interested to see who they go for between PartinG and Polt. Soulkey is there too I guess.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
On April 19 2015 01:08 JoshSuth wrote: There are still SIX players missing that should be in the Top 15... herO PartinG MC TaeJa Life Mvp
Which one didn't make the list?!
I think herO and PArtinG will miss out for Polt. herO hasnt dont anything great in Korea yet in individual leagues. He's a proleague beast though. I'm interested to see who they go for between PartinG and Polt. Soulkey is there too I guess.
herO and Parting should miss out because despite Parting's innovation and build development, he didn't actually win very much compared to Polt, and neither did herO (other than IEMs.) MC, Taeja, Life, and Mvp have all won so much and so consistently that I don't see a case for putting ANY other player above them.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Scarlett 2-0 Maru Bomber 3-2 Scarlett
Maru OSL 2013 Winner , NSSL 2015 Season 1 Winner
Bomber. Code A winner once ?
WCS Global Finals winner. 2 time red bull champ. MLG champ. Number one seed in 2014. WCS America champ. I know I know I'm gonna get yelled at about how Bomber never won a GSL I'm not saying Bomber > Maru I just think it's dumb to say bomber's only accomplishment is one Code A win
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Scarlett 2-0 Maru Bomber 3-2 Scarlett
Maru OSL 2013 Winner , NSSL 2015 Season 1 Winner
Bomber. Code A winner once ?
WCS Global Finals winner. 2 time red bull champ. MLG champ. Number one seed in 2014. WCS America champ. I know I know I'm gonna get yelled at about how Bomber never won a GSL I'm not saying Bomber > Maru I just think it's dumb to say bomber's only accomplishment is one Code A win
Its also incredibly dumb to state the sets of one tournament and arrive at conclusions between players. Pretty sure Maru's run through OSL and NSSL were harder than Bombers run through WCS Global Finals and WCS NA.
On April 19 2015 02:11 stuchiu wrote: 15th place was the second hardest choice on the list. #15-#18 had the difference of a hair between their overall achievements.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Scarlett 2-0 Maru Bomber 3-2 Scarlett
Maru OSL 2013 Winner , NSSL 2015 Season 1 Winner
Bomber. Code A winner once ?
WCS Global Finals winner. 2 time red bull champ. MLG champ. Number one seed in 2014. WCS America champ. I know I know I'm gonna get yelled at about how Bomber never won a GSL I'm not saying Bomber > Maru I just think it's dumb to say bomber's only accomplishment is one Code A win
Its also incredibly dumb to state the sets of one tournament and arrive at conclusions between players. Pretty sure Maru's run through OSL and NSSL were harder than Bombers run through WCS Global Finals and WCS NA.
...that's why I specifically said I was not using those results to say Bomber > Maru. lol
On April 19 2015 02:11 stuchiu wrote: 15th place was the second hardest choice on the list. #15-#18 had the difference of a hair between their overall achievements.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Scarlett 2-0 Maru Bomber 3-2 Scarlett
Maru OSL 2013 Winner , NSSL 2015 Season 1 Winner
Bomber. Code A winner once ?
WCS Global Finals winner. 2 time red bull champ. MLG champ. Number one seed in 2014. WCS America champ. I know I know I'm gonna get yelled at about how Bomber never won a GSL I'm not saying Bomber > Maru I just think it's dumb to say bomber's only accomplishment is one Code A win
Its also incredibly dumb to state the sets of one tournament and arrive at conclusions between players. Pretty sure Maru's run through OSL and NSSL were harder than Bombers run through WCS Global Finals and WCS NA.
Bomber was playing in Korea at the time not WCS NA. He got 3rd/4th in OSL. Let's be real he would've won that 3rd/4th match so I'm gonna call it 3rd
Meh. Surprised by the Rain pick. Isn't PartinG better? And MMA > Polt for terrans, so you'd think MMA would be higher. Bomber dominated a whole year and didn't get any love on here. That's weird to me. Anyway, the top 5 is easy now.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
On April 19 2015 02:11 stuchiu wrote: 15th place was the second hardest choice on the list. #15-#18 had the difference of a hair between their overall achievements.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
Dog you can't just say you're going to list his opponents and then not list the people he beat at RB Global lmao
On April 19 2015 02:11 stuchiu wrote: 15th place was the second hardest choice on the list. #15-#18 had the difference of a hair between their overall achievements.
On April 19 2015 01:08 JoshSuth wrote: There are still SIX players missing that should be in the Top 15... herO PartinG MC TaeJa Life Mvp
Which one didn't make the list?!
I think herO and PArtinG will miss out for Polt. herO hasnt dont anything great in Korea yet in individual leagues. He's a proleague beast though. I'm interested to see who they go for between PartinG and Polt. Soulkey is there too I guess.
herO and Parting should miss out because despite Parting's innovation and build development, he didn't actually win very much compared to Polt, and neither did herO (other than IEMs.) MC, Taeja, Life, and Mvp have all won so much and so consistently that I don't see a case for putting ANY other player above them.
The thing is, it isn't about missing out to Polt, it's about missing out to Leenock and DRG, who they're immeasurably better than. Seems a really odd choice to put Leenock in over Parting or herO.
On April 19 2015 02:11 stuchiu wrote: 15th place was the second hardest choice on the list. #15-#18 had the difference of a hair between their overall achievements.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
Dog you can't just say you're going to list his opponents and then not list the people he beat at RB Global lmao
DRG - was struggling massively against terran at the time Trap - got 3-0'd by Cure at the same event 3-2 against Polt 4-0 against Cure
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
TIL beating Stardust, mana, Classic, and Rain is almost more impressive than a lll of Bomber's 2014 combined. And "check your eyesight" really? Didn't realize we were being that childish. Piss off
mmmh, Rain over Parting is bullshit imo. I think you overrate Rain way to much. Defensive Protoss styles were already played in early 2011 were two/three base voidray collossus builds won every PvZ. PvP was still a clusterfuck even with Rain, the addition of the MsC was easily the most important reason why it became a reasonable match up. Based on achievments alone, Rain is superior to Parting, but Parting's consistency, his innovations, play style, micro and games are truley unique and show a certain sense of greatness only 4 or other maybe 5 Players could match. By excluding Parting, your list may have become more reasonable, but it lacks soul now.
Also, I think you underrate Nestea too. Not even mentioning that he didnt lose a single game in his July GSL makes me a sad panda. e: nvm, you did mention, i just suck. oh, and probs for choosing that Innovation pic. the chosen pictures have been top tier for the whole list
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
Dog you can't just say you're going to list his opponents and then not list the people he beat at RB Global lmao
DRG - was struggling massively against terran at the time Trap - got 3-0'd by Cure at the same event 3-2 against Polt 4-0 against Cure
4 matches is hardly a tournament
POLT'S IEM RUN WAS FOUR MATCHES SO UNBIASED TOP KEK
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
Dog you can't just say you're going to list his opponents and then not list the people he beat at RB Global lmao
DRG - was struggling massively against terran at the time Trap - got 3-0'd by Cure at the same event 3-2 against Polt 4-0 against Cure
4 matches is hardly a tournament
Do you want to go back through Starcraft history and use your bias to disqualify every win Bomber has ever gotten or what? Also are you cool calling Blizzcon or IEM WC "hardly a tournament"? Those are also only four matches. Bad logic
JOKES ASIDE, I think it's really hard making a "Greatest Players of All Time" list because you have to consider how well they've done over the whole duration of their career too. soO for instance, has only really been relevant in the last year and a half. While I'd consider his accomplishment (4x Silver Surfer in a row) one of the greatest, he really hasn't done anything before that.
But then there are players like Mvp, who have basically been the most dominant player SC2 had for a year and a half. And then there are players like MMA who have been consistently pretty good for a loooong time.
It can be difficult to balance long-term consistency with shorter-term dominance.
And hey! I actually guessed the 5 right! (My edit was well before this was posted... right? and that's okay?) Off by Nestea/MMA :'( But I'm "happy"? I do like MMA more
Opinions are opinions but IMO it's a travesty that soO, MKP and Rain make this list but sOs and PartinG apparently don't. sOs has done more for the post-WoL Protoss meta than anyone, won both WCS and IEM WC and Hot6ix Cup compared to just OSL and Hot6ix Cup for Rain. And PartinG's streak of Code S appearances and remaining one of the top 5 Protoss in the world for THREE YEARS now is completely unrivaled except for Mvp and Life. He should be top 5 all time easily.
Also NesTea is way too high on the list. I can't really argue he's not top 15 because 3 GSLs are hard to argue with (he's actually won as many GSLs as Mvp--people like to say that Mvp won 4 GSLs but one of them was the silly "World Championship" where there were only 16 players, half of which were foreigners, and he pretty much just had to beat MKP to win it), but let's be serious, NesTea was one of the top five players in the world for a year or less. By fall 2011 he had pretty much fallen off hard.
Edit: I retract the PartinG criticism if he's in top 5 over Polt. But if Polt isn't even top 15 (which is more defensible than PartinG not top 15) I think it's silly to have TaeJa top 5, where he will certainly be. The only criticism of Polt is that most of his success came in foreign tournaments but at least he won a major Korean individual tournament. TaeJa has never even been to the finals of one, much less won one.
On April 19 2015 01:31 THERIDDLER wrote: Not in any particular order: MC, Taeja, Polt. Life, Mvp.
lol @ polt
Those were my thoughts! But apparently everyone disagrees.
Who else could it be? Although I'm really surprised that Polt is ranked above MMA albeit winning 2 wcs while being a part time player and full time student is something extraordinarily difficult. Also being the last terran standing in the era of protosses was also incredibly difficult. Huh...as I'm typing I can see why someone can argue that polt is above MMA.
It's probably worth considering that this article is just Stuchio's opinion and we are not forced to agree with the criteria or the selections if we don't agree.
I disagree with the way he weights tournaments and a notable many of the selections, so its worth taking with a grain of salt
Edit:
Reading Zest's section it mentions that Zest's weakness is Micro...hm..
If you look at Zest's play in 2014 much of his strategies are a combination of Macro oriented builds with cheesy components (kind of a fusion of Rain and PartinG's style). Also to note that his weakness is micro seems just incorrect. Zest is perhaps the best (other than maybe Parting) at taking maxed out engagements and controlling his army, focus firing stalkers, Immortals, colussi correctly. One thing to note is Zest's incredible ability to get the most out of each engagement and keep colossi alive for longer than any other Protoss I've seen. Here are a few video examples:
- Here is a recent example against Hydra in Katowice
- vs Drg, note how well he controls Colossi
- here is a good example of a more creative component
I like this list. Nestea is well deserving of that spot, he was a GOD during the early days of Starcraft 2, and maintained good results until mid 2012. I have this feeling that if ByuN wouldn't have bunker blocked the ramp on Metropolis in that ro8, Nestea would've made another finals in S3 2012. He was so upset!
So who do we have left? Mvp, Life, Taeja, MC and Polt? The first place is such a close one - Life obviously have proven himself but other than that first few months he really broke through, I don't really feel a dominance close to what Mvp had 2011. Still will be interesting, case could be made for either one imo!
Pretty happy with the rankings. Whilst they're both big names Parting/Bomber just don't have the dominance or peaks to guarantee a top 15 all time spot. I can't think of a terran or protoss on the list i'd rank them ahead of.
A little surprised Polt's top 5 but I guess his longevity is impressive.
On April 19 2015 01:08 JoshSuth wrote: There are still SIX players missing that should be in the Top 15... herO PartinG MC TaeJa Life Mvp
Which one didn't make the list?!
if i had to guess it would be parting
mb taeja i dunno
mb taeja....what???
theres always this "taeja never won any korean tournament or made any deep runs in gsl" argument. maybe stuchiu is one of those elitists
This is false. He made it to the r04 a few times. Sometimes I feel he got screwed, when taeja was making his deep runs Blizz pretty much said, "sorry taeja wrong patch".
On April 19 2015 02:21 Paljas wrote: mmmh, Rain over Parting is bullshit imo. I think you overrate Rain way to much. Defensive Protoss styles were already played in early 2011 were two/three base voidray collossus builds won every PvZ. PvP was still a clusterfuck even with Rain, the addition of the MsC was easily the most important reason why it became a reasonable match up. Based on achievments alone, Rain is superior to Parting, but Parting's consistency, his innovations, play style, micro and games are truley unique and show a certain sense of greatness only 4 or other maybe 5 Players could match. By excluding Parting, your list may have become more reasonable, but it lacks soul now.
Also, I think you underrate Nestea too. Not even mentioning that he didnt lose a single game in his July GSL makes me a sad panda. e: nvm, you did mention, i just suck. oh, and probs for choosing that Innovation pic. the chosen pictures have been top tier for the whole list
Otherwise, good Job.
Top prediction: MC Polt Taeja Life Mvp
I have a hard time disagreeing with you on PartinG. I would say there have been no more influential players to Protoss strategy than PartinG (other than MC). Not mentioning him on the list seems like a crime to his accomplishments
It's probably worth considering that this article is just Stuchio's opinion and we are not forced to agree with the criteria or the selections if we don't agree.
I disagree with the way he weights tournaments and a notable many of the selections, so its worth taking with a grain of salt
Edit:
Reading Zest's section it mentions that Zest's weakness is Micro...hm..
If you look at Zest's play in 2014 much of his strategies are a combination of Macro oriented builds with cheesy components (kind of a fusion of Rain and PartinG's style). Also to note that his weakness is micro seems just incorrect. Zest is perhaps the best (other than maybe Parting) at taking maxed out engagements and controlling his army, focus firing stalkers, Immortals, colussi correctly. One thing to note is Zest's incredible ability to get the most out of each engagement and keep colossi alive for longer than any other Protoss I've seen. Here are a few video examples:
On April 19 2015 00:59 OtherWorld wrote: List feels good, but Rain above Maru? (and even INnoVation above Maru tbh) Also that means that TaeJa is Top5. I can't wait to see the Part3 thread explode in accusations of Liquid'Bias
cuz maru still hasnt won any titles, besides first starlegue.. 2 weeks back.
On April 19 2015 00:59 OtherWorld wrote: List feels good, but Rain above Maru? (and even INnoVation above Maru tbh) Also that means that TaeJa is Top5. I can't wait to see the Part3 thread explode in accusations of Liquid'Bias
cuz maru still hasnt won any titles, besides first starlegue.. 2 weeks back.
Looking at Maru's accomplishments probably warrants a higher place on this list. If we compare them side to side they look a lot more impressive than Polt's
zest's individual unit control is good, but not among the top protoss. his force fields are accurate and can be disgusting (ly good), but they also tend to be late more than other top protoss.
what zest truly excels at is army movement and positioning. he knows where to be and where to go more than any other player. he is one of the players that gets caught out of position the least, and watching him move his units around the map (to pressure, to defend, to feint, to draw into an ambush, etc) is a joy to behold.
It's probably worth considering that this article is just Stuchio's opinion and we are not forced to agree with the criteria or the selections if we don't agree.
I disagree with the way he weights tournaments and a notable many of the selections, so its worth taking with a grain of salt
Edit:
Reading Zest's section it mentions that Zest's weakness is Micro...hm..
If you look at Zest's play in 2014 much of his strategies are a combination of Macro oriented builds with cheesy components (kind of a fusion of Rain and PartinG's style). Also to note that his weakness is micro seems just incorrect. Zest is perhaps the best (other than maybe Parting) at taking maxed out engagements and controlling his army, focus firing stalkers, Immortals, colussi correctly. One thing to note is Zest's incredible ability to get the most out of each engagement and keep colossi alive for longer than any other Protoss I've seen. Here are a few video examples:
i agree with you, imo zest's units control is top notch
I've also seen him not micro at all and lose 7 probes and msc to a scouted WM. I guess it's unfair to say its weak when I mean relatively weak to the rest of his skills. He's different from players like Parting and Maru who use their micro to pummel their opponents into submission. WIth Zest, he very rarely uses his micro skills alone to kill someone (and has never needed to). It's only a weakness when we're batting in the range of the greatest players at the time.
It's probably worth considering that this article is just Stuchio's opinion and we are not forced to agree with the criteria or the selections if we don't agree.
I disagree with the way he weights tournaments and a notable many of the selections, so its worth taking with a grain of salt
Edit:
Reading Zest's section it mentions that Zest's weakness is Micro...hm..
If you look at Zest's play in 2014 much of his strategies are a combination of Macro oriented builds with cheesy components (kind of a fusion of Rain and PartinG's style). Also to note that his weakness is micro seems just incorrect. Zest is perhaps the best (other than maybe Parting) at taking maxed out engagements and controlling his army, focus firing stalkers, Immortals, colussi correctly. One thing to note is Zest's incredible ability to get the most out of each engagement and keep colossi alive for longer than any other Protoss I've seen. Here are a few video examples:
It's probably worth considering that this article is just Stuchio's opinion and we are not forced to agree with the criteria or the selections if we don't agree.
I disagree with the way he weights tournaments and a notable many of the selections, so its worth taking with a grain of salt
Edit:
Reading Zest's section it mentions that Zest's weakness is Micro...hm..
If you look at Zest's play in 2014 much of his strategies are a combination of Macro oriented builds with cheesy components (kind of a fusion of Rain and PartinG's style). Also to note that his weakness is micro seems just incorrect. Zest is perhaps the best (other than maybe Parting) at taking maxed out engagements and controlling his army, focus firing stalkers, Immortals, colussi correctly. One thing to note is Zest's incredible ability to get the most out of each engagement and keep colossi alive for longer than any other Protoss I've seen. Here are a few video examples:
i agree with you, imo zest's units control is top notch
I've also seen him not micro at all and lose 7 probes and msc to a scouted WM. I guess it's unfair to say its weak when I mean relatively weak to the rest of his skills. He's different from players like Parting and Maru who use their micro to pummel their opponents into submission. WIth Zest, he very rarely uses his micro skills alone to kill someone (and has never needed to). It's only a weakness when we're batting in the range of the greatest players at the time.
I'm sure you could link a whole host of mistakes from any great player, including Zest.
Having re-watched a lot of 2014 Gsl's last week I have a really hard time taking you opinion seriously on that matter.
It's probably worth considering that this article is just Stuchio's opinion and we are not forced to agree with the criteria or the selections if we don't agree.
I disagree with the way he weights tournaments and a notable many of the selections, so its worth taking with a grain of salt
Edit:
Reading Zest's section it mentions that Zest's weakness is Micro...hm..
If you look at Zest's play in 2014 much of his strategies are a combination of Macro oriented builds with cheesy components (kind of a fusion of Rain and PartinG's style). Also to note that his weakness is micro seems just incorrect. Zest is perhaps the best (other than maybe Parting) at taking maxed out engagements and controlling his army, focus firing stalkers, Immortals, colussi correctly. One thing to note is Zest's incredible ability to get the most out of each engagement and keep colossi alive for longer than any other Protoss I've seen. Here are a few video examples:
i agree with you, imo zest's units control is top notch
I've also seen him not micro at all and lose 7 probes and msc to a scouted WM. I guess it's unfair to say its weak when I mean relatively weak to the rest of his skills. He's different from players like Parting and Maru who use their micro to pummel their opponents into submission. WIth Zest, he very rarely uses his micro skills alone to kill someone (and has never needed to). It's only a weakness when we're batting in the range of the greatest players at the time.
You are missing second place in Gainward for list of Nestea results. The top 32 wasn't online and it had a $9k prize pool and it had a sick player pool for the time it took place.
What ? ByuN is not in the list !! He just won olimoleague today and these past two years made him one of the most greatest players ;p
It's really hard to make this kind of ranking but the writer make a good job. Maybe the top 20 could be satisfy much people with others stars like Parting sOs Bomber and why not soulkey or Stephano
On April 19 2015 04:17 Boucot wrote: My theory is that both Polt and PartinG will be in the list, with MC and TaeJa. And Mvp/Life tied for the first place. So 6 players in the top 5.
Because I don't see how one of these players could not be there.
i can see easily parting not being there. i think you guys overhype him quite a bit
On April 19 2015 04:17 Boucot wrote: My theory is that both Polt and PartinG will be in the list, with MC and TaeJa. And Mvp/Life tied for the first place. So 6 players in the top 5.
Because I don't see how one of these players could not be there.
considering the reasoning of stuchiu and the fact that taeja won most of his stuff outside korea, it would make sense that taeja is not in the top 5
On April 19 2015 04:17 Boucot wrote: My theory is that both Polt and PartinG will be in the list, with MC and TaeJa. And Mvp/Life tied for the first place. So 6 players in the top 5.
Because I don't see how one of these players could not be there.
i can see easily parting not being there. i think you guys overhype him quite a bit
I may or may not have seen the final 5 and stephano and/or parting may or may not be in it
Bah, had a feeling Rain would be here when Zealously said nobody got the top 10 right. I suppose Polt is not on this now, given that there's only a top 5 left. I mean, he isn't right? Surely PartinG and MC are somehow ahead of MMA in the top 5?
As for Rain, I don't think he belongs here at all and certainly not as high as he is. Yes his rapid string of top-tier results after transitioning over to sc2 are impressive and especially since he innovated so quickly. Yet, outside of both of his OSL runs, his premiere results are kind of weak compared to what you'd expect for a top 16 player. WCS Asia was a bunch of foreigners and PvP, where Rain only played one top-tier PvP for that run (PartinG). I'm not even sure the 2013 Hotsix cup should be a tier-1 event considering the format was only a ro8 (where he played a slumping Symbol and Dear to get to the finals) over the span of 4 days..
Then there's the consistency route, where Rain is one of very few reliable Protoss players. Yet, even in that regard, Rain got not one, but TWO charity seeds into code S. Now, I'm not stupid enough to think that Rain wouldn't have eventually made it in to code S, but there's no denying that it greatly accelerated things for him. Back then you couldn't go from code B to champ in one season. Given how closely contested this list is, I think that's a notable blemish on Rain. Especially when he's ahead of the likes of Maru, who's gotten ro8+ in nearly everything since winning his OSL while even up against huge imbalance.
On April 19 2015 04:17 Boucot wrote: My theory is that both Polt and PartinG will be in the list, with MC and TaeJa. And Mvp/Life tied for the first place. So 6 players in the top 5.
Because I don't see how one of these players could not be there.
i can see easily parting not being there. i think you guys overhype him quite a bit
I may or may not have seen the final 5 and stephano and/or parting may or may not be in it
Good top 5 should be 5. herO 4. Polt 3. Stephano 2. Mvp 1. Life Taeja obviously not in it because he never won anything until he ran away to take money from foreigners. Parting never won GSL so he doesn't deserve top 15 either.
Why are people surprised Polt is ahead of MMA? More premier wins overall, is ahead in their lifetime record, and let's not forget his GSL super tournament win vs MMA, curbstomping him 4-0. And this was when MMA was beginning to take the form that could defeat MVP. Both he and MMA played in foreign grounds, and both had similar competition. Polt also won an IEM vs a swarm of top Protoss during a time when Protoss and the map shat on Terrans.
On April 19 2015 04:17 Boucot wrote: My theory is that both Polt and PartinG will be in the list, with MC and TaeJa. And Mvp/Life tied for the first place. So 6 players in the top 5.
Because I don't see how one of these players could not be there.
i can see easily parting not being there. i think you guys overhype him quite a bit
I may or may not have seen the final 5 and stephano and/or parting may or may not be in it
Good top 5 should be 5. herO 4. Polt 3. Stephano 2. Mvp 1. Life Taeja obviously not in it because he never won anything until he ran away to take money from foreigners. Parting never won GSL so he doesn't deserve top 15 either.
On April 19 2015 04:17 Boucot wrote: My theory is that both Polt and PartinG will be in the list, with MC and TaeJa. And Mvp/Life tied for the first place. So 6 players in the top 5.
Because I don't see how one of these players could not be there.
considering the reasoning of stuchiu and the fact that taeja won most of his stuff outside korea, it would make sense that taeja is not in the top 5
then again i'm not sure of anything at this point
Taeja not in the top 15 would be a travesty though. Maybe he should have been in #6-10, but his accomplishments are far too numerous and impressive to leave him out of the list entirely, and he hasn't been already listed...
Edit: Taeja is also on the frontpage picture of the article. I don't know if that means anything.
On April 19 2015 04:17 Boucot wrote: My theory is that both Polt and PartinG will be in the list, with MC and TaeJa. And Mvp/Life tied for the first place. So 6 players in the top 5.
Because I don't see how one of these players could not be there.
Yeah, honestly, one of them not being in the top five means they weren't even good enough up be in the top fifteen, which is incredible.
On April 19 2015 04:35 Dreamer.T wrote: Why are people surprised Polt is ahead of MMA? More wins overall, is ahead in their lifetime record, and let's not forget his GSL super tournament win vs MMA, curbstomping him 4-0. And this was when MMA was beginning to take the form that could defeat MVP.
heat-to-head is minor at best. MMA's biggest blemish is his huge streak of irrelevancy after he left Slayers. Yet, even still, MMA's foreign wins should hold more weight and he totally kicks Polt's ass in Korean league results. Especially having just come off a recent ro4 run in code S. In terms of longevity, Polt's been notable for slightly longer but not by much. They're both dinosaurs.
I don't think Polt is on here (he should be though!). Looking at how this is being ranked, I think PartinG has cracked the top 5 (arguably the most consistent Protoss player of all-time).
On April 19 2015 04:38 Undead1993 wrote: oh boy stuchiu. you made some nerds real mad.
I'm rocking violently back and forth and foaming out the mouth as I type!
On April 19 2015 04:35 Dreamer.T wrote: Why are people surprised Polt is ahead of MMA? More wins overall, is ahead in their lifetime record, and let's not forget his GSL super tournament win vs MMA, curbstomping him 4-0. And this was when MMA was beginning to take the form that could defeat MVP.
heat-to-head is minor at best. MMA's biggest blemish is his huge streak of irrelevancy after he left Slayers. Yet, even still, MMA's foreign wins should hold more weight and he totally kicks Polt's ass in Korean league results. Especially having just come off a recent ro4 run in code S. In terms of longevity, Polt's been notable for slightly longer but not by much. They're both dinosaurs.
I don't think Polt is on here (he should be though!). Looking at how this is being ranked, I think PartinG has cracked the top 5 (arguably the most consistent Protoss player of all-time).
On April 19 2015 04:38 Undead1993 wrote: oh boy stuchiu. you made some nerds real mad.
Hah, aside from a few rankings, a lot of these choices must've been mind boggling hard to make. I'm sure he struggled dearly with not letting his inner fanboy take over and tried to be as objective as possible. in the end, there will be masses of pissed off fanboys even if one rank is off (I know I might potentially succumb to this). He's doing what most sane men would never dare do!
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
I'd put sOs over Rain even. Comparable in terms of Protoss innovation, but his 3 wins are far more impressive. Rain has the edge in consistency for sure though.
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
I'd put sOs over Rain even. Comparable in terms of Protoss innovation, but his 3 wins are far more impressive. Rain has the edge in consistency for sure though.
I think It's an interesting question to ask, is it more impressive to have Rain's consistency or the huge wins that sOs does?
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Scarlett 2-0 Maru Bomber 3-2 Scarlett
Maru OSL 2013 Winner , NSSL 2015 Season 1 Winner
Bomber. Code A winner once ?
WCS Global Finals winner. 2 time red bull champ. MLG champ. Number one seed in 2014. WCS America champ. I know I know I'm gonna get yelled at about how Bomber never won a GSL I'm not saying Bomber > Maru I just think it's dumb to say bomber's only accomplishment is one Code A win
Its also incredibly dumb to state the sets of one tournament and arrive at conclusions between players. Pretty sure Maru's run through OSL and NSSL were harder than Bombers run through WCS Global Finals and WCS NA.
Bomber was playing in Korea at the time not WCS NA. He got 3rd/4th in OSL. Let's be real he would've won that 3rd/4th match so I'm gonna call it 3rd
That 3rd/4th match would have been against Innovation. I know Bomber beat him in a Bo3, but a Bo7 is hard to just give away like that. Especially given Innovations stature in sc2 at the time.
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
Dog you can't just say you're going to list his opponents and then not list the people he beat at RB Global lmao
Bomber or Parting not even making the top 16 makes this list difficult to discuss or even properly understand the criteria, especially with players like Taeja and Polt making the top 5 (and if either is excluded from the list entirely that would be even more ridiculous).
On April 19 2015 01:45 Yorkie wrote: How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? Actually know results before you say something like that
How did Bomber do in that OSL that maru won? 3/4 vs winner. So worse.
How did he do at the WCS global finals right after where Maru and Innovation were in attendance? Wasn't present at WCS Season 3 finals. Maru 3/4th. So worse.
How much farther in the tournament did Innovation and Maru get at Blizzcon 2013? Both Bomber and Maru 3/4th
How many more events did Maru and Innovation win than him in 2014? If you actually read my quote, I was talking about 2013, so while we're there:
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
This is before I get to all the events you ignored due to your bias
I feel I should bring up this quote again
Actually know results before you say something like that
WCS season 2 where Bomber won and Innovation and Maru went out of groups was the one right after OSL bud nice try. He did worse than Maru in OSL but the same (or better since he didn't get fucking 4-0d by Maru constantly one basing) as Innovation which was my point. Bomber and Maru both made ro4 at Blizzcon but Innvation got trunched int he ro16 by Duckdeok and Bomber put up a fight vs the eventual champ but Maru lost to Jaedong LOL. You also never specified 2013 in your original quote. Stop cherry picking results to suit your argument.
I bolded it, but go on.
Cherry pick this then
All 3 had 1 win each INno 2 silvers INno 4 top 4, Maru 4 top 4, Bomber 2 top 4
Nothing bomber did was anything as impressive as INno's GSL silver, or Maru's streak in the second half of the year
Go back a page and see that your quote says nothing about 2013 . I said arguably for 2013 for a reason. Inno and Maru would be that reason. Let's also mention that two of Inno's top four finishes were at much weaker events, particularly Northcon which should have been at least a free 2nd only if Jaedong beat him
Again, I bolded it, check your eyesight.
I don't think 2013 is arguable at all, INno / Maru's results are flat out better than Bomber's.
Let's look at the relevant players that Bomber beat in his big performances in 2014 then:
Violet + polt (slumping) at RB Atlanta Heart in WCS Season 2 Pigbaby and Heart and Polt again in WCS Season 3 Super and Revival at IEM San Jose
His RB Global win is the only really impressive one of the lot.
Hell, I'd take Polt's IEM Cologne runner up as more impressive than most of that combined
Dog you can't just say you're going to list his opponents and then not list the people he beat at RB Global lmao
He said that the RBBG Global win was impressive
Yeah but he listed the names of players he felt suited his point and barely touched on what didn't
To respond to your other point (I'm on my phone and lazy/bad at quoting) not only had Bomber dominated his all TvT Ro16 group and beaten Inno 2-0, but Inno had just gotten thrashed by Maru in a Bo7 TvT. Nothing is a sure thing but that series would've been like 80-20 Bomber favored or even more at that time
On April 19 2015 05:11 Poopi wrote: Very surprised to not see Stephano in the top 15 :o. Mvp top 1 wouldn't be surprising, MC top 5 would be quite a bit though.
Why? MC is pretty much the only player who stayed relevant for the entire duration of Starcraft 2. He also won the most money by far.
On April 19 2015 05:11 Poopi wrote: Very surprised to not see Stephano in the top 15 :o. Mvp top 1 wouldn't be surprising, MC top 5 would be quite a bit though.
Why? MC is pretty much the only player who stayed relevant for the entire duration of Starcraft 2. He also won the most money by far.
Also MMA but I see your point but MC's place is assured.
On April 19 2015 05:11 Poopi wrote: Very surprised to not see Stephano in the top 15 :o. Mvp top 1 wouldn't be surprising, MC top 5 would be quite a bit though.
MC won GSL twice back in early days and is still Code S in 2015. Also he won a bunch of weekend events. Guy is a legend worthy of somewhere from 2-4
On April 19 2015 05:01 Jermius wrote: Bomber or Parting not even making the top 16 makes this list difficult to discuss or even properly understand the criteria, especially with players like Taeja and Polt making the top 5 (and if either is excluded from the list entirely that would be even more ridiculous).
This is how I feel. I'm not sure how you could value the achievements of a player like Leenock over Parting/Bomber's at the very least
Sad to see Stephano out out of top 15, in term of influence on the game he is probably top 5. Also PartinG out of top 15 is weird, he is one of the most consistent players ever.
On April 19 2015 05:29 Nirel wrote: Sad to see Stephano out out of top 15, in term of influence on the game he is probably top 5. Also PartinG out of top 15 is weird, he is one of the most consistent players ever.
PartinG is entering his 13th Code S in a row, one more and he will be the most consistent player in history <.<
On April 19 2015 05:29 Nirel wrote: Sad to see Stephano out out of top 15, in term of influence on the game he is probably top 5. Also PartinG out of top 15 is weird, he is one of the most consistent players ever.
PartinG is entering his 13th Code S in a row, one more and he will be the most consistent player in history <.<
What is your opinion on the ranking so far, Elentos?
I'm a huge MMA fan. I watched him from his dominance to his fall to his resurgence. I've always enjoyed his story of when he was on top of the world and then he fell off. Hard. But, his move to Europe and Team Acer was a great decision. He showed great results in WCS Europe, winning 2, and in foreign tournaments, winning a Dreamhack. And his return to Korea wasn't shy of great. Barely anyone expected MMA to get to a Ro4 finish in his first GSL back in over 2 years. I mean, people were slamming MMA, saying he would get knocked out in Ro32.
MMA is definitely the person who has the story that is Top 5 worthy but I respect stuchiu and the work put in.
On April 19 2015 05:29 Nirel wrote: Sad to see Stephano out out of top 15, in term of influence on the game he is probably top 5. Also PartinG out of top 15 is weird, he is one of the most consistent players ever.
PartinG is entering his 13th Code S in a row, one more and he will be the most consistent player in history <.<
What is your opinion on the ranking so far, Elentos?
I don't really know, one of PartinG, Polt, TaeJa, MC not making this list (unless stuchiu goes the anti nerdrage route of having Life and Mvp tied) will always feel wrong to me. I agree with most of the players and stuchiu's reasoning, just that one thing is really bugging me. I'm not quite sure if I'd ordered them exactly the same, but the players are pretty identical.
On April 19 2015 05:57 Dodgin wrote: I know the data is objective but placing mkp drg and leenock above parting and bomber just feels so wrong
It isn't objective and it can't be objective. I totally believe that stuchiu made the list as true to his criteria as humanly possible though. People will value the criteria differently though and maybe change places accordingly.
On April 19 2015 01:08 JoshSuth wrote: There are still SIX players missing that should be in the Top 15... herO PartinG MC TaeJa Life Mvp
Which one didn't make the list?!
if i had to guess it would be parting
mb taeja i dunno
I bet it's herO. The guy with the most premier tournament top finishes and the guy with the greatest consistency in GSL are not going to be left out. herO on the other hand, while a fantastic player, doesn't have the achievements of either of them, or enough influence on the game to compensate for it.
I really don't agree with Polt being above MMA though, curious to see the rationale for that... (assuming Polt is 5th). It's definitely really close, but MMA's recent Blizzcon and GSL semi really put him above Polt for me, and potentially even MC.
Don't see how it can be any other players because I can't think of anyone else who would rank above MMA. The main question is who will be 4-5. I think polt is a lock for 5 unless I'm wrong and overestimating MC, then when it comes to MC or Polt vs Taeja i see taeja winning. So taeja must be 3. There's no way taeja beats out mvp or life. Polt and MC are both dinosaurs in sc2 but I think MC has been slightly more " Great " over the years, it's really hard to say for sure though since I know stuchiu isn't factoring in prize money.
What everyone really wants to see is if life or mvp is #1. If this list was made next year life would probably be #1 but i think he's not quite there yet. Then again I've already been very wrong about 6-10 so who knows
Taeja won't be on the list so that this article can be claimed as a counterexample whenever Liquid bias is called. That fixes the Polt vs. PartinG conundrum too. :-p
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
I agree. I wouldn't rank herO or even Parting above Rain. However, I'd rank parting over leenock.
On April 19 2015 06:15 Dodgin wrote: I'm going to guess the top 5 is
1. Mvp 2. Life 3. Taeja 4. MC 5. Polt
Don't see how it can be any other players because I can't think of anyone else who would rank above MMA. The main question is who will be 4-5. I think polt is a lock for 5 unless I'm wrong and overestimating MC, then when it comes to MC or Polt vs Taeja i see taeja winning. So taeja must be 3. There's no way taeja beats out mvp or life. Polt and MC are both dinosaurs in sc2 but I think MC has been slightly more " Great " over the years, it's really hard to say for sure though since I know stuchiu isn't factoring in prize money.
What everyone really wants to see is if life or mvp is #1. If this list was made next year life would probably be #1 but i think he's not quite there yet. Then again I've already been very wrong about 6-10 so who knows
On April 19 2015 05:01 Jermius wrote: Bomber or Parting not even making the top 16 makes this list difficult to discuss or even properly understand the criteria, especially with players like Taeja and Polt making the top 5 (and if either is excluded from the list entirely that would be even more ridiculous).
I love Bomber, but in terms if achievement, he has nothing on Korean tournaments. Winning code A is really not at the same level as winning code S. Polt at least has the GSL Super tournament, and Taeja has many more international tournaments.
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
I agree. I wouldn't rank herO or even Parting above Rain. However, I'd rank parting over leenock.
It depends on how much you value longevity. I don't think PartinG can touch Leenock's peak, personally.
Leenock 2011 : GSL November (2nd), MLG Providence (1st) - both tier S. Leenock 2012 : 2 GSL Top 8s, MLG Summer Championship (1st), MLG Fall Championship (2nd), IPL5 (1st), Blizzard Cup (top 4) PartinG 2012 : 1 GSL Top 4, 3 GSL/OSL Top 8s, WCS Korea (3rd), WCS Asia (2nd), WCS Finals (1st), Blizzard Cup (2nd) Leenock 2013 : 3 GSL Top 32, 1 DH championship. PartinG 2013 : 2 GSL Top 8s, 1 GSL Top 16, Red Bull championship. Leenock 2014/2015 : 2 GSL Top 32, minor foreign tournament success, SSL top 8 PartinG 2014/2015 : 1 GSL Top 8, 2 GSL Top 16s, 1 GSL 2nd, high success in fairly minor foreign tournaments.
Note that I'm not sure if the list even counts PartinG's recent GSL final, considering it was written fairly early into 2015. Maybe PartinG and Maru would both rise if you considered those results, I'm not sure.
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
I don't think anyone's arguing that Bomber isn't a great player, but the right question to ask is who you'd kick off the top 15/16 for him
Marineking/DRG/Leenock/Rain/Zest /yawn
On April 19 2015 01:29 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:28 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:26 Undead1993 wrote:
On April 19 2015 01:24 Darkhorse wrote: I wanna argue with people. Someone argue with me
bomber is overrated even lost against pigbaby, the whole series pigbaby just trolled him with carriers and tempests but bomber was still helpless.
If one terrible series DQs you then every player on this list is DQ'd
dude is that how your arguing works? i thought we are going to talk shit and not being reasonable oh well
Ah so that's how it is? Then Zest is a giant noob who can't even make Code A DAE loss to TANGTANG waowzers holy moly he isn't even top 50
Bomber is a runner who never got close to winning anything in Korea after Byun broke his spirit and ruined any hope he ever had of making a deep run in the GSL
WCS season 2 Global Finals rekt
Is the 2-0 win vs Grubby or 3-2 vs Scarlett the victory that makes him a top 10 player? Or maybe it was being the most overrated terran in the world for 2 full years
Nah it was being arguably the most successful terran of 2013 followed by being the most successful terran of 2014.
Every terran that played in GSL > anything Bomber did in 2010 Mvp, MMA, Polt > anything Bomber did in 2011 TaeJa & Marineking > anything Bomber did in 2012 Maru winning OSL > anything Bomber did in 2013 Innovation winning GSL > anything Bomber did in 2014
This is dumb, marineking did all of his stuff in 2011 when zerg and protoss sucked. It was all terrans until 2012.
I guess you feel that an MLG win is better than a gsl win. go whine somewhere else its not. Bomber/stephano got screwed. MarineKing had his chances and always cried cried cried. stephano had more tier 2 wins, and bomber had more tier 1 wins. When Marineking realized that he'd have to scout because his greedy play was getting punished, he quit and went to league.
I got 6players that are definitely missing in the top 15 for me. :S
3easy ones Mvp... without a question rank 1 or 2. Life... chance that he is rank 1. Objectively Mvp had more success when he was successful, but you could value Life's success higher because the competition is tougher nowadays. Given how high Nestea is placed, I think it's going to be number two. MC... yeah, pretty simple. must be somewhere there. Only reason he is not 3rd would be same as when Life takes first.
the other 3: TaeJa. Easily the most successful player in the last years in amount of tournament wins. But no GSL/WCS titles. Only one GSL semis. Hardest player in the history of SC2 to rank properly. PartinG. Easily a more successful Kong than Marineking and more successful than the likes of Leenock or Rain which all made the list. Polt. Similar to TaeJa but he has been around for longer and won a big GSL title and another 2 foreign WCS titles.
And then there is another one that stuchiu brought into play with A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments introducing sOs. Won a blizzcon amongst many other Korean tournament top finishes and championships.
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
I agree. I wouldn't rank herO or even Parting above Rain. However, I'd rank parting over leenock.
It depends on how much you value longevity. I don't think PartinG can touch Leenock's peak, personally.
Leenock 2011 : GSL November (2nd), MLG Providence (1st) - both tier S. Leenock 2012 : 2 GSL Top 8s, MLG Summer Championship (1st), MLG Fall Championship (2nd), IPL5 (1st), Blizzard Cup (top 4) PartinG 2012 : 1 GSL Top 4, 3 GSL/OSL Top 8s, WCS Korea (3rd), WCS Asia (2nd), WCS Finals (1st), Blizzard Cup (2nd) Leenock 2013 : 3 GSL Top 32, 1 DH championship. PartinG 2013 : 2 GSL Top 8s, 1 GSL Top 16, Red Bull championship. Leenock 2014/2015 : 2 GSL Top 32, minor foreign tournament success, SSL top 8 PartinG 2014/2015 : 1 GSL Top 8, 2 GSL Top 16s, 1 GSL 2nd, high success in fairly minor foreign tournaments.
Note that I'm not sure if the list even counts PartinG's recent GSL final, considering it was written fairly early into 2015. Maybe PartinG and Maru would both rise if you considered those results, I'm not sure.
how people rate a tournament which place in one weekend on the same level as a gsl still baffles me
also parting WCG, HSC and 2nd GSL global tournament
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
I agree. I wouldn't rank herO or even Parting above Rain. However, I'd rank parting over leenock.
It depends on how much you value longevity. I don't think PartinG can touch Leenock's peak, personally.
Leenock 2011 : GSL November (2nd), MLG Providence (1st) - both tier S. Leenock 2012 : 2 GSL Top 8s, MLG Summer Championship (1st), MLG Fall Championship (2nd), IPL5 (1st), Blizzard Cup (top 4) PartinG 2012 : 1 GSL Top 4, 3 GSL/OSL Top 8s, WCS Korea (3rd), WCS Asia (2nd), WCS Finals (1st), Blizzard Cup (2nd) Leenock 2013 : 3 GSL Top 32, 1 DH championship. PartinG 2013 : 2 GSL Top 8s, 1 GSL Top 16, Red Bull championship. Leenock 2014/2015 : 2 GSL Top 32, minor foreign tournament success, SSL top 8 PartinG 2014/2015 : 1 GSL Top 8, 2 GSL Top 16s, 1 GSL 2nd, high success in fairly minor foreign tournaments.
Note that I'm not sure if the list even counts PartinG's recent GSL final, considering it was written fairly early into 2015. Maybe PartinG and Maru would both rise if you considered those results, I'm not sure.
how people rate a tournament which place in one weekend on the same level as a gsl still baffles me
also parting WCG, HSC and 2nd GSL global tournament
All pretty much irrelevant. I guess GSL Global Tournament is kinda relevant, but even then not by much.
I almost getted the players order. I had inno 8 and zest 9. AlAlso MMA 5 and polt 6 . I dont like bomber and parting out of top 15 and leenock, soO and Marineking in the top 15 but otherwise is a nice list
On April 19 2015 07:54 partydude89 wrote: Please tell me that this is going to amount to some epic troll, and #1 will be someone like Sniper Or bitByBit
On April 19 2015 01:08 JoshSuth wrote: There are still SIX players missing that should be in the Top 15... herO PartinG MC TaeJa Life Mvp
Which one didn't make the list?!
probably herO or PartinG. Both are good but herO only has a few IEM championships under his belt, and PartinG isn't at the level of the rest.
This is insane. At a minimum, PartinG should easily be above Rain. Even with regards to where people tend to praise Rain (consistency) PartinG blows him out of the water.
PartinG not only has a NesTea award (few people have managed this), but he's on the verge of creating his own award. PartinG has been ro16+ in code S for 8 seasons in a row now and is aiming for a potential 9th this season. That's unheard of. He also has the longest code S streak in general now that DRG has fallen.
Not only that, PartinG has pretty much been just outside of or in the top 5 Protoss player ranks since he rose in early 2012. Again, that's astounding given the instability typically seen from Protoss players.
What about tournament wins? Rain's only advantage is winning a tier-1 Korean league (2012 OSL). That's it.
Even in pure peak performance, I'd argue PartinG looks scarier right now than Rain ever did. He's got like the scariest PvT win rate I've ever seen.
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
I agree. I wouldn't rank herO or even Parting above Rain. However, I'd rank parting over leenock.
It depends on how much you value longevity. I don't think PartinG can touch Leenock's peak, personally.
Leenock 2011 : GSL November (2nd), MLG Providence (1st) - both tier S. Leenock 2012 : 2 GSL Top 8s, MLG Summer Championship (1st), MLG Fall Championship (2nd), IPL5 (1st), Blizzard Cup (top 4) PartinG 2012 : 1 GSL Top 4, 3 GSL/OSL Top 8s, WCS Korea (3rd), WCS Asia (2nd), WCS Finals (1st), Blizzard Cup (2nd) Leenock 2013 : 3 GSL Top 32, 1 DH championship. PartinG 2013 : 2 GSL Top 8s, 1 GSL Top 16, Red Bull championship. Leenock 2014/2015 : 2 GSL Top 32, minor foreign tournament success, SSL top 8 PartinG 2014/2015 : 1 GSL Top 8, 2 GSL Top 16s, 1 GSL 2nd, high success in fairly minor foreign tournaments.
Note that I'm not sure if the list even counts PartinG's recent GSL final, considering it was written fairly early into 2015. Maybe PartinG and Maru would both rise if you considered those results, I'm not sure.
how people rate a tournament which place in one weekend on the same level as a gsl still baffles me
also parting WCG, HSC and 2nd GSL global tournament
All pretty much irrelevant. I guess GSL Global Tournament is kinda relevant, but even then not by much.
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
How is IEM not a tier1 event? Have you seen the korean qualifiers for those things? Stacked to the top. It's not easy foreigner money.
Rains hotsix cup is worth less imo. Then it's 1 OSL vs 3 IEMs.
On April 19 2015 04:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On April 19 2015 04:35 KingofdaHipHop wrote: alright but why do people still think herO is there hahaha
herO earns a top10 place more than Rain imo.
He's been consistently one of the best players. And the only one to win 3 IEMs
herO's been 'consistently one of the best' for one year. Rain's been 'consistently one of the best' for about two and a half. Not to mention herO hasn't won a tier 1 event aside from maybe San Jose.
How is IEM not a tier1 event? Have you seen the korean qualifiers for those things? Stacked to the top. It's not easy foreigner money.
Rains hotsix cup is worth less imo. Then it's 1 OSL vs 3 IEMs.
Straight-up, MMA from last September to (at least) this March is among the greatest career revivals of any player in any sport, electronic or otherwise.
Parting is a top 5 player, I can't honestly believe the author would disrespect him like that, so I'm hoping he does something silly like having 6 players in the top 5 by naming Mvp 1A and Life 1B.
Parting has been one of the most innovative Protosses of all time, literally redefined the PVT meta in late 2011 and PVZ in 2012. Here we are in 2015 and he still looks like a wizard the way he plays PVT. He does the same builds better than other Protoss players or adds his own flair to their build making it his own. MC may have won the most money and more tournaments, but when it comes to actual talent and level of play Parting has been the best Protoss of all time in the history of SC2.
On April 19 2015 10:19 ATiBright wrote: Parting is a top 5 player, I can't honestly believe the other would disrespect him like that, so I'm hoping he does something silly like having 6 players in the top 5 by naming Mvp 1A and Life 1B.
Parting has been one of the most innovative Protosses of all time, literally redefined the PVT meta in late 2011 and PVZ in 2012. Here we are in 2015 and he still looks like a wizard the way he plays PVT. He does the same builds better than other Protoss players or adds his own flair to their build making it his own. MC may have won the most money and more tournaments, but when it comes to actual talent and level of play Parting has been the best Protoss of all time in the history of SC2.
On April 19 2015 10:19 ATiBright wrote: Parting is a top 5 player, I can't honestly believe the other would disrespect him like that, so I'm hoping he does something silly like having 6 players in the top 5 by naming Mvp 1A and Life 1B.
Parting has been one of the most innovative Protosses of all time, literally redefined the PVT meta in late 2011 and PVZ in 2012. Here we are in 2015 and he still looks like a wizard the way he plays PVT. He does the same builds better than other Protoss players or adds his own flair to their build making it his own. MC may have won the most money and more tournaments, but when it comes to actual talent and level of play Parting has been the best Protoss of all time in the history of SC2.
Yeah, but innovation only got #9
Yeah, but Parting>=MarineKing in every statistic. Second places in GSL tournaments, foreign tournament wins, foreign tournament placements, Code S streaks, teams. And MK also made the list, so it's only logical that Parting would be somewhere.
To make Bomber's exclusion even more confusing, he essentially has an even record (24-25) against the top 5 (assuming Taeja, MC, Polt, Life, couldn't find match stats for MVP). Taeja also has like a 65% win rate against the top 15 for people trying to discredit a player's success for playing foreign tournaments.
damn, I was really close. I got the top 10 right, and baring something weird in the top 5, I didn't put any player more than two places out of their spot.
as far as my personal feelings, I would have Parting in the top ten instead of Rain, and I think MMA's body of work is better than Polt's, but other than that I can't find much fault with the list.
On April 19 2015 10:19 ATiBright wrote: Parting is a top 5 player, I can't honestly believe the other would disrespect him like that, so I'm hoping he does something silly like having 6 players in the top 5 by naming Mvp 1A and Life 1B.
Parting has been one of the most innovative Protosses of all time, literally redefined the PVT meta in late 2011 and PVZ in 2012. Here we are in 2015 and he still looks like a wizard the way he plays PVT. He does the same builds better than other Protoss players or adds his own flair to their build making it his own. MC may have won the most money and more tournaments, but when it comes to actual talent and level of play Parting has been the best Protoss of all time in the history of SC2.
Yeah, but innovation only got #9
Yeah, but Parting>=MarineKing in every statistic. Second places in GSL tournaments, foreign tournament wins, foreign tournament placements, Code S streaks, teams. And MK also made the list, so it's only logical that Parting would be somewhere.
If you haven't yet, look at stuchiu's blog. Again - PartinG /could/ be top 5. You don't know yet! In the case that he isn't top 5, I'll make a post breaking down PartinG vs MarineKing and PartinG vs Leenock in that comments section.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
On April 19 2015 10:44 Jermius wrote: To make Bomber's exclusion even more confusing, he essentially has an even record (24-25) against the top 5 (assuming Taeja, MC, Polt, Life, couldn't find match stats for MVP). Taeja also has like a 65% win rate against the top 15 for people trying to discredit a player's success for playing foreign tournaments.
you need to look at offline results only, online qualifier and tournament results are not included when ranking the players I believe.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
Cmon son. All three of Nada's MSLs and one of his OSLs came in 2002-03. The competition back then wasn't even close to as good as it was when Flash was destroying everyone. No player ever reached Flash's peak and he won as many titles as anyone else, so he's the best.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
Cmon son. All three of Nada's MSLs and one of his OSLs came in 2002-03. The competition back then wasn't even close to as good as it was when Flash was destroying everyone. No player ever reached Flash's peak and he won as many titles as anyone else, so he's the best.
No one reasonable argues about Flash not being the best of all time
also thank you so much for mma > nestea, even if mma should probably be above taeja as well. there's still hope for polt > taeja i guess even if not much.
On April 19 2015 12:26 ETisME wrote: nestea is not top 5? that's interesting
Flawless GSL run, the one who shows how to play zerg properly with his droning, and 90% ZvZ win rate and invented the muta style in ZvZ
MMA's opponents in his 2011 GSL and Hot6 cup runs were the best of the best, NesTea's opponents in his back-to-back GSLs were mostly players who deserved to be in Code A or B but stuck around in Code S due to the awful format.
On April 19 2015 12:30 Cheren wrote: much less anti-kespa bias than expected.
also thank you so much for mma > nestea, even if mma should probably be above taeja as well. there's still hope for polt > taeja i guess even if not much.
On April 19 2015 12:26 ETisME wrote: nestea is not top 5? that's interesting
Flawless GSL run, the one who shows how to play zerg properly with his droning, and 90% ZvZ win rate and invented the muta style in ZvZ
MMA's opponents in his 2011 GSL and Hot6 cup runs were the best of the best, NesTea's opponents in his back-to-back GSLs were mostly players who deserved to be in Code A or B but stuck around in Code S due to the awful format.
In terms of personal impact though, who do you remember most, MMA or Nestea? I have to say without a doubt Nestea is one of the most memorable players, although I honestly think that the casters like Artosis and Tasteless have something to do with it because artosis in particular really hyped Nestea up, and I always loved it when that happened .
Nestea was just such an interesting player, really innovative tactics. But if this is about mechanics and general skill then it should probably be MMA...it just feels like a boring way to rank people, even if its probably more standard. Heck I would put fruit dealer ahead of MMA in terms of memorability. The way Artosis casted him rolling a bunch of zerglings/banelings into a terran army "Tasteless tears are streaming from my eyes, my body is shaking, this is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen!!" And then when he wins he just says "FRUIT. DEALER.!!" I miss those GSL casts.
Well written, although I believe the sheer impact of NesTea as a player during the early stages of Starcraft should've granted him top 5. He was an icon of the game, in a time when there when the zerg race was the epitome of struggle.
On April 19 2015 10:44 Jermius wrote: To make Bomber's exclusion even more confusing, he essentially has an even record (24-25) against the top 5 (assuming Taeja, MC, Polt, Life, couldn't find match stats for MVP). Taeja also has like a 65% win rate against the top 15 for people trying to discredit a player's success for playing foreign tournaments.
On April 19 2015 13:46 IMLyte wrote: Well written, although I believe the sheer impact of NesTea as a player during the early stages of Starcraft should've granted him top 5. He was an icon of the game, in a time when there when the zerg race was the epitome of struggle.
Always thought Nestea was a bit lucky with how many GSLs there was in a year back then. His dominance lasted less than a year and still got 3 GSL titles. If he had been as dominant now for the same amount of time he would have gotten 1-2.
Here's a game from Nestea in November 2011 (aka the year he was at his best). Can start watching from around 10min, been a somewhat normal game before that.
Enjoy seeing the worst throw in like SC2 history. As even I could have beaten HuK from the position Nestea was in.
Well, the order may be different, but these 5 will definitely be on the list next week. There's simply nobody else.
If this is the top 5 then Polt is getting massively disrespected. if Polt is number 5 than Parting is being massively disrespected
I agree that it feels both should be there, but refuse to say that it is a "massive disrespect". I am sure Stichu respects both players and their results.
On April 19 2015 13:46 IMLyte wrote: Well written, although I believe the sheer impact of NesTea as a player during the early stages of Starcraft should've granted him top 5. He was an icon of the game, in a time when there when the zerg race was the epitome of struggle.
Always thought Nestea was a bit lucky with how many GSLs there was in a year back then. His dominance lasted less than a year and still got 3 GSL titles. If he had been as dominant now for the same amount of time he would have gotten 1-2.
Here's a game from Nestea in November 2011 (aka the year he was at his best). Can start watching from around 10min, been a somewhat normal game before that.
Enjoy seeing the worst throw in like SC2 history. As even I could have beaten HuK from the position Nestea was in. https://youtu.be/b_NzfHZBkwk?t=601
No, Nestea was firmly the best Zerg for almost exactly a year. This was nearly inarguable. I'd say from his first gsl title all the way until the game you just posted. So that ranges from October 2010 to November 2011. He also has a decent enough spread on his gsl wins that the amount of gsl opportunities back then is somewhat irrelevant. Not like Nestea completely vanished thereafter either, he was still more relevant than a lot of Zergs. It's just that you could actually argue DRG and Leenock were better after that point.
In fact, for early 2012 you could've still considered him the #2 Zerg considering Leenock fell off for a little while at that point and didn't really come roaring back until the summer of 2012.
Nestea was falling but he didn't really hit total rock bottom until he got destroyed by ByuN in his last code S ro8 appearance. He would then fall to code B, the amount of thrown games would skyrocket (the game you posted isn't even the worst). But then, there would be one last glimmer of hope as Nestea qualified for the final season of WoL code S and made his last good tournament run at Iron Squid II. After that he never looked anywhere close to coming back to form and essentially was a lingering shadow of his former self.
Actually I don't agree that much on putting NesTea in here .. he should be in the top 5 for sure .. First he won 3 GSLs when no other zerg was even near his form .. they all straggled against Terran! He was creative and he reformed the zerg race to what it became at the moment .. I do feel that this is way under-ranking the guy! Although I am Terran player you have to recognize greatness when u see it .. if NesTea doesn't belong in the top 5 .. I wonder who is?! I'll wait to see but i do think it's a very silly choice to not put him in the top 5 .. I'm really disappointed ..
Very well written, though I do agree with other people saying he's worthy of top 5. In terms of impact and accomplishments, he's the most standout player when I think of Starcraft 2. His legacy will never be forgotten, and watching his reign made me exude emotions for the game that no other player could or probably ever can again. I don't know, it's strange to put into words. Another Nestea can't ever be repeated. That's what makes him the greatest.
Honestly, this article lost credibility to me with Nestea this low. He was the most dominant zerg and player for a solid 1 year stretch. 3 GSL titles, an undefeated GSL season, and had the 'Nestea' award obviously named after him.
Sure he fell off the map quickly, but so did MVP. Its a shame Nestea doesnt get the respect he deserves. He was one of the top 3 greatest Starcraft 2 players of all time.
I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) 2013: 4 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.75) the rest had 3 GSLs per year
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 5.70 Innovation 4.85 Soulkey 4.60 NesTea 4.31 MC 4.21 Rain 4.10 HongUn 3.86 soO 3.75 MarineKing 3.63 Maru 3.50 Symbol 3.45 Zest 3.00 Mvp 2.91 MMA 2.86 Taeja 2.70
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 <----- MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
shouldnt Maru be at 5 ? OSL Win, GSL Code S S3 Ro4, GSL Code S 2014 S1 Ro8, GSL Code S 2014 S2 Ro4 , NSSL Win
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 <----- MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
shouldnt Maru be at 5 ? OSL Win, GSL Code S S3 Ro4, GSL Code S 2014 S1 Ro8, GSL Code S 2014 S2 Ro4 , NSSL Win
I would say no because the OSL was the replacement for GSL in that season while NSSL is independent this year. At least I think that's how he arrived at 4.
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
shouldnt Maru be at 5 ? OSL Win, GSL Code S S3 Ro4, GSL Code S 2014 S1 Ro8, GSL Code S 2014 S2 Ro4 , NSSL Win
On April 19 2015 10:44 Jermius wrote: To make Bomber's exclusion even more confusing, he essentially has an even record (24-25) against the top 5 (assuming Taeja, MC, Polt, Life, couldn't find match stats for MVP). Taeja also has like a 65% win rate against the top 15 for people trying to discredit a player's success for playing foreign tournaments.
Statistical analysis hype! great comment
That just means that when Bomber was strong, he was on par with the best, and when he sucked they won titles and he didn't even have opportunity to play against them.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
Cmon son. All three of Nada's MSLs and one of his OSLs came in 2002-03. The competition back then wasn't even close to as good as it was when Flash was destroying everyone. No player ever reached Flash's peak and he won as many titles as anyone else, so he's the best.
By that logic BoxeR's accomplishments wheren't that impressive - 2 OSL and 1 KPGA? Come on, that's not on par even with July, especially given how some of the maps were terran favored.
The argument against NaDa is hard to swallow. He was literally on top of the world winning 3 titles in a row and an OSL shortly after that. He overcome personal tragedy and returned to the top to win golden mouse but also his longevity was unparalleled. The last starleague he qualified for was at the time when Jaedong already had Golden Mouse and the one just before Flash's rampage.
It's not about absolute skill level, it's about your relation with your peers - that's defining quality of a GOAT.
I agree with almost every placement so far on the list. Maybe Maru above Rain but not sure about that. Also I really wanna read the reasoning for the players above MMA because IMHO he is top 3 but that might just be bias.
So NesTea, who won 3 GSLs in a period of time where no one knew how to play StarCraft, when, like in any sport in the world, the game isn't that figured out, the top tier players are only a handful, gets a spot in this ridiculous "TOP 15" and a player like sOs who was the reigning Blizzcon World Champion and IEM World Champion gets left out to the likes of Leenock?
This article is rubbish.
Oh by the way, where did NesTea disappear? He didn't disappear from the scene, only from the TOP scene. He failingly tried to qualify for tournaments, but failed. Every. Single. Time.
On April 19 2015 17:20 sfbaydave wrote: Honestly, this article lost credibility to me with Nestea this low. He was the most dominant zerg and player for a solid 1 year stretch. 3 GSL titles, an undefeated GSL season, and had the 'Nestea' award obviously named after him.
Sure he fell off the map quickly, but so did MVP. Its a shame Nestea doesnt get the respect he deserves. He was one of the top 3 greatest Starcraft 2 players of all time.
Fun fact : NesTea took one year to not be indisputable best of his race. About one and a half to become mostly irrelevant with one pretty good run after.
Mvp took about a year and a half to not be indisputable one of the best terrans - only really fading away with GSL Season 5 2012. Before that you could say he was either #1 terran or really, really close. Maybe not for a couple stretches. But, it took him another year to become fully irrelevant, with 1 amazing run (WCS Season 1 2013) and 1 relevant run (RBBG qualifier) after.
NesTea has absolutely no success in HotS, and his success in 2012+ wasn't fantastic.
Mvp proved that, even when facing the harshest odds any pro gamer has probably ever faced, he could stay relevant. Even in 2012, when everyone doubted him, he could beat every amazing toss back to back to win Code S. Even in 2013, when he was fighting physical injuries and having to claw himself to victory, he could come one game away from beating the 'best terran by far in the world'. Even in 2014, when most had forgotten about him, he could come back to narrowly lose to DRG and defeat the likes of LosirA and Snute.
There's no doubt that Mvp is one of the big GOATs, and he will forever be. He's NesTea except with really, really impressive runs in 2012+ instead of having to rely on pretty impressive 2012 and nothing after.
Polt just won a bunch of Koreign tourneys. Stephano won premiere events where it was already difficult for a foreigner to win them. Polt's contribution to terran race is zero. Stephano revolutionized PvZ in a way we've never seen before or after.
So, the top 5:
5.- Stephano. 4.- Taeja. 3.- MC 2.- Life 1.- Mvp
(I'd like to see Life 1st but we all know stuchiu is a hardcore Mvp fan, so no Life 1st )
On April 19 2015 20:55 Apoteosis wrote: Polt won't be on that list. Stephano will.
Polt just won a bunch of Koreign tourneys. Stephano won premiere events where it was already difficult for a foreigner to win them. Polt's contribution to terran race is zero. Stephano revolutionized PvZ in a way we've never seen before or after.
So, the top 5:
5.- Stephano. 4.- Taeja. 3.- MC 2.- Life 1.- Mvp
(I'd like to see Life 1st but we all know stuchiu is a hardcore Mvp fan, so no Life 1st )
lol
Polt is one of the most consistent players ever. He's got one GSL trophy, he's won multiple foreign tournaments, he was one of not even a handful of Terrans relevant and capable of winning tournaments during the blink era last year, despite being being nearly 10 years older than for example Maru who was one of the other few. He's won a premier tournament every year since 2011, an unmatched feat. And he's one of the most intelligent players out there. Polt not being on this list would be some top notch bogus.
So either Stephano makes in into top 5 or the (arguably) best foreigner to date won´t be on that list at all ? Not sure which one I`d be more surprised at tbh. Shouldn't he have been somewhere around 9,10,11 ?
Same goes for Parting, maye to a slightly lesser extent, IMO. He absolutely can't be top5 with players like Taeja, MVP or Life, but excluding him from the list also feels wrong. He would've been a solid 12 - 15 in my book.
On April 19 2015 20:55 Apoteosis wrote: Polt won't be on that list. Stephano will.
Polt just won a bunch of Koreign tourneys. Stephano won premiere events where it was already difficult for a foreigner to win them. Polt's contribution to terran race is zero. Stephano revolutionized PvZ in a way we've never seen before or after.
So, the top 5:
5.- Stephano. 4.- Taeja. 3.- MC 2.- Life 1.- Mvp
(I'd like to see Life 1st but we all know stuchiu is a hardcore Mvp fan, so no Life 1st )
"Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments."
On April 19 2015 21:26 lichter wrote: i don't like polt myself but i'm surprised how many people don't like him
you forget how many people exist who will put literally every kespa player over everyone not on a kespa team.
It's not about Kespa, it's about preparation style tournaments > weekend tournaments Add: korean ones > foreign ones
A real GOAT has to do well in both, preferably also in the korean edition. Polt won that one super tournament in 2011, his results after that in korea were just ok and decent. Sure he also won 3 wcs seasons, but let's be real, none of these tournaments is even remotely comparable with a gsl win or even semi final tbh. I don't wanna say that Polt doesn't deserve to be on a top 15 list, he probably does. But top 5?
as for "the best a man can get" it is no doubt innovation. that didn't last for very long but he wiped the floor with everyone. for "mr. consistency" of course it's mvp.
There are 6 titans left for 5 spots. At 1st I was like WTF? ... but then I. have realized what Stuchiu is going to do with this list. Five places for Life & co. and on t he top MVP declared as 1st Sc2 Bonjwa. Years after his era, there is almost no1 who tries to argue about MVP taking the 1st spot. t simply shows how big and dominant he was. And this is the definition of Bonjwa. In BW it was up to Korean crowd to crown their Boxer, Flash ... . In Sc2 I can see the possibility, that community can accept this declaration made on the central pointt website of Starcraft 2 scene.
On April 19 2015 22:59 messioso wrote: Seems quite crazy yet logical at the same time that two Blizzcon/World champions won't be in the top 15 of all time.
Genius I understand entirely, besides the 2010 win and a single runner up in GSL.
But let's spare a thought for $O$.
Well, good thing for $O$ is, he still has a shot to move up in the rankings as SC2 goes on. Some of the others don't.
There is literally no competition between Polt and Parting on an all-time list. Polt is objectively higher. I think Parting should have got on here, but he's being overrated big time if people actually think he is top 5. Look at his results. The most impressive feat people are listing for him is making Code S a bunch of times. Actually WINNING tournaments is most important when ranking all-time. Scale/weight the tournaments how you'd like... at the end of the day Polt was playing Koreans in the playoff rounds of these tournaments.
Also, the whole preparation tournaments > weekend tournaments is weird. Both are valuable and should be treated as such. BUT, if we're trying to find players who are straight out more talented, why wouldn't a weekend tournament be the best way to determine a player's raw skill?
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 <----- MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
Truly one of the greatest
Hey! He basically invented double forge vs Terran. I quite liked HongUn, remember when he would go Carriers, just to please his fans?
Also, the whole preparation tournaments > weekend tournaments is weird. Both are valuable and should be treated as such. BUT, if we're trying to find players who are straight out more talented, why wouldn't a weekend tournament be the best way to determine a player's raw skill?
This is probably also why Nestea is so high on the list. He's a preparation monster, but anytime he would travel to events out of Korea he would just suck. If you cannot play both styles well, you don't deserve to be one of the greatest players of all time. If a player like Rain that have no clue how to play a bo7, you should not be one of the greatest players of all time.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
Cmon son. All three of Nada's MSLs and one of his OSLs came in 2002-03. The competition back then wasn't even close to as good as it was when Flash was destroying everyone. No player ever reached Flash's peak and he won as many titles as anyone else, so he's the best.
No one reasonable argues about Flash not being the best of all time
Flash played at the time Bw was in decadence at 2008. I played bw since 99 and bw peak was surely at the time of Nada or Savior there was much more competition in servers and professional leagues. NA servers where dead at time. Ive seen all the players named bonjwa and flash is probably out of my top 3 (Nada, savior and bisu).
Parting didnt make the top 15 due to the lack of results. His four premier where tier 2 or 3 events (only in homestory there were more than 3 koreans). In the blizzcon cup wich he came second he played only one korean and he lost (the final against creator). So his only results that counts are 2 gsl finals and his homestory cupcup the rest is pretty bad.
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 <----- MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
Truly one of the greatest
Hey! He basically invented double forge vs Terran. I quite liked HongUn, remember when he would go Carriers, just to please his fans?
Also, the whole preparation tournaments > weekend tournaments is weird. Both are valuable and should be treated as such. BUT, if we're trying to find players who are straight out more talented, why wouldn't a weekend tournament be the best way to determine a player's raw skill?
This is probably also why Nestea is so high on the list. He's a preparation monster, but anytime he would travel to events out of Korea he would just suck. If you cannot play both styles well, you don't deserve to be one of the greatest players of all time. If a player like Rain that have no clue how to play a bo7, you should not be one of the greatest players of all time.
I agree completely, which is the main argument for me to disagree with Taeja being in the top 5.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
Cmon son. All three of Nada's MSLs and one of his OSLs came in 2002-03. The competition back then wasn't even close to as good as it was when Flash was destroying everyone. No player ever reached Flash's peak and he won as many titles as anyone else, so he's the best.
No one reasonable argues about Flash not being the best of all time
Flash played at the time Bw was in decadence at 2008. I played bw since 99 and bw peak was surely at the time of Nada or Savior there was much more competition in servers and professional leagues. NA servers where dead at time. Ive seen all the players named bonjwa and flash is probably out of my top 3 (Nada, savior and bisu).
On April 19 2015 21:26 lichter wrote: i don't like polt myself but i'm surprised how many people don't like him
you forget how many people exist who will put literally every kespa player over everyone not on a kespa team.
It's not about Kespa, it's about preparation style tournaments > weekend tournaments Add: korean ones > foreign ones
A real GOAT has to do well in both, preferably also in the korean edition. Polt won that one super tournament in 2011, his results after that in korea were just ok and decent. Sure he also won 3 wcs seasons, but let's be real, none of these tournaments is even remotely comparable with a gsl win or even semi final tbh. I don't wanna say that Polt doesn't deserve to be on a top 15 list, he probably does. But top 5?
I'd say 3 WCS and being relevant for 5 years is *a lot* more impressive than 1 GSL (or whatever big name Korean tournament) and never really achieving anything again. This list isn't just about achievements, it's about legacy. It's about their lasting impact on the scene.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
Cmon son. All three of Nada's MSLs and one of his OSLs came in 2002-03. The competition back then wasn't even close to as good as it was when Flash was destroying everyone. No player ever reached Flash's peak and he won as many titles as anyone else, so he's the best.
No one reasonable argues about Flash not being the best of all time
Flash played at the time Bw was in decadence at 2008. I played bw since 99 and bw peak was surely at the time of Nada or Savior there was much more competition in servers and professional leagues. NA servers where dead at time. Ive seen all the players named bonjwa and flash is probably out of my top 3 (Nada, savior and bisu).
Bisu above Flash all time? TT
The only players in contention for GOAT in BW are Boxer, Nada and Flash Boxer dominated the beginning of BW so unbelievably hard. Nada won 6 titles across three distinctly different phases of BW's life (from like 2003?-2007) and then Flash rocked the end of BWs life span from 2008 onwards. Jaedong/Oov/Savior probably fill out the top six.
On April 20 2015 00:04 TheAnarchy wrote: Parting didnt make the top 15 due to the lack of results. His four premier where tier 2 or 3 events (only in homestory there were more than 3 koreans). In the blizzcon cup wich he came second he played only one korean and he lost (the final against creator). So his only results that counts are 2 gsl finals and his homestory cupcup the rest is pretty bad.
I can barely understand what you are trying to mention but PartinG never lost to Creator in a finals and definitely not in some Blizzcon cup. PartinG actually made 3 Code S finals since GSL sees the 2014 WT as a legit GSL.
On April 20 2015 00:04 TheAnarchy wrote: Parting didnt make the top 15 due to the lack of results. His four premier where tier 2 or 3 events (only in homestory there were more than 3 koreans). In the blizzcon cup wich he came second he played only one korean and he lost (the final against creator). So his only results that counts are 2 gsl finals and his homestory cupcup the rest is pretty bad.
I can barely understand what you are trying to mention but PartinG never lost to Creator in a finals and definitely not in some Blizzcon cup. PartinG actually made 3 Code S finals since GSL sees the 2014 WT as a legit GSL.
This is the only finals I can think of Creator beating Parting in. Parting lost Blizzard Cup (not to creator), but beat loads of Koreans on the way there. He won the WCS 2012 against Creator, and once again beat a bunch of Koreans to even get through the qualifiers.
Parting lost to Creator in WCS Korea Ro4 . Creator was the true champion of Blizzcon after beating Rain in the sickest PvP the world had ever seen, only to get blinked by Parting in the finals. :D
On April 19 2015 21:26 lichter wrote: i don't like polt myself but i'm surprised how many people don't like him
you forget how many people exist who will put literally every kespa player over everyone not on a kespa team.
It's not about Kespa, it's about preparation style tournaments > weekend tournaments Add: korean ones > foreign ones
A real GOAT has to do well in both, preferably also in the korean edition. Polt won that one super tournament in 2011, his results after that in korea were just ok and decent. Sure he also won 3 wcs seasons, but let's be real, none of these tournaments is even remotely comparable with a gsl win or even semi final tbh. I don't wanna say that Polt doesn't deserve to be on a top 15 list, he probably does. But top 5?
I'd say 3 WCS and being relevant for 5 years is *a lot* more impressive than 1 GSL (or whatever big name Korean tournament) and never really achieving anything again. This list isn't just about achievements, it's about legacy. It's about their lasting impact on the scene.
See that's why i hate that there is a foreign scene sometimes, haha. Yes he won 3 WCS titles and is relevant in weekend tournaments (foreign ones) But that's exactly WHY he is that relevant, he chose to play in easier competition. I am not saying that he couldn't do decent in korea (at least that's not the point), but how valuable are these 3 WCS titles really? How valuable is it to be competitve in weekend tournaments where most of the gsl players don't even compete in? I think it's a big problem to value players against each other, when they don't even compete against each other a lot of the time :/
Overall I feel there's a little bias towards the later years of Starcraft, although in my opinion Innovation might deserve a higher spot, especially as one of his strengths is something that went unmentioned - teamleagues.
These are the three players that you never count out in any tournament they enter, and had a real good chance of beating anyone they face, throughout WoL and HoTS.
On April 20 2015 00:04 TheAnarchy wrote: Parting didnt make the top 15 due to the lack of results. His four premier where tier 2 or 3 events (only in homestory there were more than 3 koreans). In the blizzcon cup wich he came second he played only one korean and he lost (the final against creator). So his only results that counts are 2 gsl finals and his homestory cupcup the rest is pretty bad.
I can barely understand what you are trying to mention but PartinG never lost to Creator in a finals and definitely not in some Blizzcon cup. PartinG actually made 3 Code S finals since GSL sees the 2014 WT as a legit GSL.
Yeah i made some mistakes but the point is the same. By the way that second place in Gsl Global Championship 2014 is meaningless. He defeated hack, squirtle, DRG, fantasy, revival, mma and san (and he lost twice to zest). I will say none of them was top 20 at that time (maybe mma). So his best results are two GSL second plase (Gsl blizzard cup and gsl tournament, non counting gsl championship wich is meaningless) and homestory cup (you can add gsl semis and iem tapei semis). The rest of the premiers are 3 tier tournaments.
On April 20 2015 00:04 TheAnarchy wrote: Parting didnt make the top 15 due to the lack of results. His four premier where tier 2 or 3 events (only in homestory there were more than 3 koreans). In the blizzcon cup wich he came second he played only one korean and he lost (the final against creator). So his only results that counts are 2 gsl finals and his homestory cupcup the rest is pretty bad.
I can barely understand what you are trying to mention but PartinG never lost to Creator in a finals and definitely not in some Blizzcon cup. PartinG actually made 3 Code S finals since GSL sees the 2014 WT as a legit GSL.
Yeah i made some mistakes but the point is the same. By the way that second place in Gsl Global Championship 2014 is meaningless. He defeated hack, squirtle, DRG, fantasy, revival, mma and san (and he lost twice to zest). I will say none of them was top 20 at that time (maybe mma). So his best results are two GSL second plase (Gsl blizzard cup and gsl tournament, non counting gsl championship wich is meaningless) and homestory cup (you can add gsl semis and iem tapei semis). The rest of the premiers are 3 tier tournaments.
It's rated higher than every foreign tournament if you read the OP, he got there through a qualifier and took Zest who was on the hottest PvP streak ever to 7 games.
MVP life, taeja are definitely going to be in the top 5, jugding by the picture alone, which is understandable.
I bet stephano will also be in the top 5, the guy was simply incredible. Koreans were fans of stephano, everyone feared him, he has head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners, he was simply too good.
Depends on how you want to define "greatest". If it's based purely on influence he had on the game then yes absolutely stephano is top 5. If you go judge purely on playing capability, who can beat who, etc, then no I don't think so. Even at his absolute top form stephano could have never taken a GSL, for instance.
Great Article (s) and I really appreciate the work you guys have put in. Not only have you (and others) written endless articles about those guys - interviews, predictions, summaries and so on, but you still keep it interesting and worth to read! I especially appreciate the link to VODs of "best-ofs" and the motivation when compared to the guy "next in line" in the rankings.
I too prefer long-timers over one-hit-wonders (which you seem to favor) but I understand it's a hard thing to compare - say Zest and Nestea. Zest would destroy Nestea, and is "straight up" a way better player, but I like to take history, time at the top, build devlopment and everything else in account.
My prediction for the top 5 is Mvp and Life top 2 (hands down) 3-5 MC, Parting (no particular order). I would maybe consider Taeja top 15, or even top 10 but definitely not top 5 so I'll see if we'll disagree on that. Furthermore the other thing I disagree with is Maru, I'd put him higher up. But I understand your reasoning - in cold results/feats he hasn't won enough yet to prove himself. This is the same reason I think you'd put MVP first and Life second. Probably by the end of this year Life will be the undisputeable #1 of Sc2, and hopefully Maru second, but today it's a very close run btwn life and Mvp - even though Life started his rise by beating Mvp (and of course others on the way to the finals + the second place in TSL )
PS. I would like to see (if you dare) to make the same list for foreigners top 15. Don't want to start a flame war but I'd say (ish) that it'd go (1,2,3...) Naniwa, Stephano, Snute, Thorzain, Bunny, Nestea, Vortix, Kas ........
On April 19 2015 02:11 stuchiu wrote: 15th place was the second hardest choice on the list. #15-#18 had the difference of a hair between their overall achievements.
Leenock/sOs/Parting/Bomber?
yea, 19th was real close too.
How are we still discussing if PartinG is top 5 when stuchiu has already said that PartinG and Bomber were 17-18 and Soulkey 19?
On April 20 2015 03:27 showBanquo wrote: PS. I would like to see (if you dare) to make the same list for foreigners top 15. Don't want to start a flame war but I'd say (ish) that it'd go (1,2,3...) Naniwa, Stephano, Snute, Thorzain, Bunny, Nestea, Vortix, Kas ........
On April 20 2015 02:21 Kevn23 wrote: To me the BEST 3 are MvP, Life, TaeJa.
These are the three players that you never count out in any tournament they enter, and had a real good chance of beating anyone they face, throughout WoL and HoTS.
I count Taeja out every time he plays in a Korean LAN :p
On April 19 2015 10:44 Jermius wrote: To make Bomber's exclusion even more confusing, he essentially has an even record (24-25) against the top 5 (assuming Taeja, MC, Polt, Life, couldn't find match stats for MVP). Taeja also has like a 65% win rate against the top 15 for people trying to discredit a player's success for playing foreign tournaments.
you need to look at offline results only, online qualifier and tournament results are not included when ranking the players I believe.
Almost all of the games are from offline premier tournaments for Bomber. With Taeja I think the results wouldn't really change that much, in fact his win rate might even be higher in offline tournaments.
On April 20 2015 03:27 showBanquo wrote: PS. I would like to see (if you dare) to make the same list for foreigners top 15. Don't want to start a flame war but I'd say (ish) that it'd go (1,2,3...) Naniwa, Stephano, Snute, Thorzain, Bunny, Nestea, Vortix, Kas ........
Nestea is a foreigner now? I'm guessing you meant Nerchio?
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 <----- MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
Truly one of the greatest
Hey! He basically invented double forge vs Terran. I quite liked HongUn, remember when he would go Carriers, just to please his fans?
Also, the whole preparation tournaments > weekend tournaments is weird. Both are valuable and should be treated as such. BUT, if we're trying to find players who are straight out more talented, why wouldn't a weekend tournament be the best way to determine a player's raw skill?
This is probably also why Nestea is so high on the list. He's a preparation monster, but anytime he would travel to events out of Korea he would just suck. If you cannot play both styles well, you don't deserve to be one of the greatest players of all time. If a player like Rain that have no clue how to play a bo7, you should not be one of the greatest players of all time.
nestea finished third at IPL4 and both Iron Squids.
On April 20 2015 00:04 TheAnarchy wrote: Parting didnt make the top 15 due to the lack of results. His four premier where tier 2 or 3 events (only in homestory there were more than 3 koreans). In the blizzcon cup wich he came second he played only one korean and he lost (the final against creator). So his only results that counts are 2 gsl finals and his homestory cupcup the rest is pretty bad.
I can barely understand what you are trying to mention but PartinG never lost to Creator in a finals and definitely not in some Blizzcon cup. PartinG actually made 3 Code S finals since GSL sees the 2014 WT as a legit GSL.
Yeah i made some mistakes but the point is the same. By the way that second place in Gsl Global Championship 2014 is meaningless. He defeated hack, squirtle, DRG, fantasy, revival, mma and san (and he lost twice to zest). I will say none of them was top 20 at that time (maybe mma). So his best results are two GSL second plase (Gsl blizzard cup and gsl tournament, non counting gsl championship wich is meaningless) and homestory cup (you can add gsl semis and iem tapei semis). The rest of the premiers are 3 tier tournaments.
It's rated higher than every foreign tournament if you read the OP, he got there through a qualifier and took Zest who was on the hottest PvP streak ever to 7 games.
Thats what the OP says but if you read the player reviews you will see that IPL, IEM, MLG, etc. are all rated as tier 1 tournaments because of the difficulty of the draws. What im saying is that the criterias in the OP arent the one that matters, the final criteria was the difficulty of the path in each tournament.
On April 19 2015 22:19 shadymmj wrote: lots of different benchmarks for greatest players
as for "the best a man can get" it is no doubt innovation. that didn't last for very long but he wiped the floor with everyone. for "mr. consistency" of course it's mvp.
i dunno. i think Life and Taeja at peak are as impressive as Innovation. not in terms of mechanics, but they make up for it by being strategic masterminds and being more versatile.
On April 19 2015 18:16 fancyClown wrote: I realized that the GSLs of 2011 and 2012 should get lower weight since there were more GSLs per year. 2011: 7 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.429) 2012: 5 GSLs per year (multiply with 0.6) the rest had 3 GSLs per year (including 1 OSL)
Here are the adjusted Top15 based on the number of times the players made it to GSL Code S Ro8:
PartinG 6.2 Innovation 6 Soulkey 6 Rain 5 MC 4.5 NesTea 4.3 Symbol 4.2 Maru 4 soO 4 HongUn 3.9 <----- MarineKing 3.6 Taeja 3.2 Life 3 Zest 3 Mvp 2.9
Truly one of the greatest
Hey! He basically invented double forge vs Terran. I quite liked HongUn, remember when he would go Carriers, just to please his fans?
Also, the whole preparation tournaments > weekend tournaments is weird. Both are valuable and should be treated as such. BUT, if we're trying to find players who are straight out more talented, why wouldn't a weekend tournament be the best way to determine a player's raw skill?
This is probably also why Nestea is so high on the list. He's a preparation monster, but anytime he would travel to events out of Korea he would just suck. If you cannot play both styles well, you don't deserve to be one of the greatest players of all time. If a player like Rain that have no clue how to play a bo7, you should not be one of the greatest players of all time.
nestea finished third at IPL4 and both Iron Squids.
Plus second at Blizzcon. Nestea only seemed meh at weekend events because he struggled with jetlag even more than most players.
it isn't even just jetlag, it's being old. nestea is around my age, and dawg if you're playing 12 hours a day like he was on the last day of IPL4, you can't do it at 30 like you can at 20. end of story.
the thing with parting, and i fell into that trap too, is that he doesn't have many huge wins. only 4 premier tournament wins isn't that much, and only 1 of them was filled with top competition through and through. he always was a top 3 protoss, but never quite was a championship winner per se.
that said, the top 5 should be polt, taeja, life, mc and mvp in that order.
On April 20 2015 05:12 Makro wrote: how many international tournaments do you "need" to outweight one gsl ?
so we know polt > taeja or no
considering that some of the international tournaments taeja won were around GSL level, and that taeja had fairly big success in GSl aswell when he still palyed there, i would say it's safe to assume that taeja is ranked higher than polt.
On April 20 2015 05:11 Tanzklaue wrote: the thing with parting, and i fell into that trap too, is that he doesn't have many huge wins. only 4 premier tournament wins isn't that much, and only 1 of them was filled with top competition through and through. he always was a top 3 protoss, but never quite was a championship winner per se.
that said, the top 5 should be polt, taeja, life, mc and mvp in that order.
He was in the finals of 3 gsl tournaments (blizzard cup, gsl global tournament, gsl 2015 season 1) soO got in the list just for that. (yeah he was in 1 finals more, but does 1 final outweight 4 premier tournament wins, one of them the world championship?)
On April 20 2015 05:12 Makro wrote: how many international tournaments do you "need" to outweight one gsl ?
so we know polt > taeja or no
you can't just differentiate tournaments by their geographical location, you have to look at the player field. I would say the gsl super tournament outweights all of taejas HSC wins but taejas IEM shenzen win is nearly equally impressive.
On April 19 2015 22:19 shadymmj wrote: lots of different benchmarks for greatest players
as for "the best a man can get" it is no doubt innovation. that didn't last for very long but he wiped the floor with everyone. for "mr. consistency" of course it's mvp.
I think Maru's mechanical peaks are far higher (albeit less consistent) than INnoVation. Like, far, /far/ higher.
I'd have sacked Leenock at 15 for Stephano or Polt, if either of those two make Top 5 it seems extremely soft. The Top 4 is already clear that it's going to include Taeja/MC/Life/Mvp
On April 20 2015 08:17 PartyBiscuit wrote: I'd have sacked Leenock at 15 for Stephano or Polt, if either of those two make Top 5 it seems extremely soft. The Top 4 is already clear that it's going to include Taeja/MC/Life/Mvp
I don't think any of TaeJa's championships counts as "Tier 1" by Stuchiu's standards - so it's possible that TaeJa won't be in top 5.
On April 20 2015 08:17 PartyBiscuit wrote: I'd have sacked Leenock at 15 for Stephano or Polt, if either of those two make Top 5 it seems extremely soft. The Top 4 is already clear that it's going to include Taeja/MC/Life/Mvp
I don't think any of TaeJa's championships counts as "Tier 1" by Stuchiu's standards - so it's possible that TaeJa won't be in top 5.
He's in the picture though, picture clue too strong.
On April 20 2015 08:17 PartyBiscuit wrote: I'd have sacked Leenock at 15 for Stephano or Polt, if either of those two make Top 5 it seems extremely soft. The Top 4 is already clear that it's going to include Taeja/MC/Life/Mvp
I don't think any of TaeJa's championships counts as "Tier 1" by Stuchiu's standards - so it's possible that TaeJa won't be in top 5.
He's in the picture though, picture clue too strong.
On April 20 2015 08:17 PartyBiscuit wrote: I'd have sacked Leenock at 15 for Stephano or Polt, if either of those two make Top 5 it seems extremely soft. The Top 4 is already clear that it's going to include Taeja/MC/Life/Mvp
I don't think any of TaeJa's championships counts as "Tier 1" by Stuchiu's standards - so it's possible that TaeJa won't be in top 5.
Sure they do based on what he's counted so far from other players.
both ro4 code S appearances 2013 WCS Season 2 finals 3-4th 2013 DH Bucharest 1st 2013 DH Winter 1st 2014 Blizzcon 3-4th 2014 IEM Shenzhen 1st 2014 IEM World Championship 3-4th 2014 DH Winter 3rd
should all be tier-1. Especially since Rain's ro8-only, 4-day Hotsix cup is somehow a tier-1 event.
How can anyone argue against Polt after seeing his wiki page and realizing how good he has been for so long. Either this is a list made on peak performance or overall results. So far it has been the latter. Peak performances can't be as easily analyzed because patch player have really high peaks such as Puma before 1 1 1 patch.
"The easy choice would have been to move on. Nearing the age of 30, Nestea was already 5 years past the usual time when Korean BW players had given up the mouse. Players who had done more, who had shown more potential than him, had long given up. They told him he was too old, too slow, and his time was up. The smart choice would have been to move on, to let go. No one would have blamed him; in fact no one would have noticed. The only one who would have blamed Nestea was Nestea. And that was all it took and Nestea, completely incapable of giving up his dream, would take on the challenge one last time and the world would be his witness."
Yo man I just had to quote that cause that was some fantastic fucking writing there man, legit felt pumped after reading that A+
On April 20 2015 08:47 BisuDagger wrote: How can anyone argue against Polt after seeing his wiki page and realizing how good he has been for so long. Either this is a list made on peak performance or overall results. So far it has been the latter. Peak performances can't be as easily analyzed because patch player have really high peaks such as Puma before 1 1 1 patch.
Polt's wiki page is ridiculous, the only one bigger is Taeja's, but it contains even less Korean tournaments.
Assuming that LIfe. MVP, and MC are in the top 5 for sure, I can't believe one of SoS and Parting is not one for the best 15 players of Starcraft 2 with taeja in it. (Come on, they both won one of the WCS Grand Finals!)
On April 20 2015 09:00 BongChambers wrote: "The easy choice would have been to move on. Nearing the age of 30, Nestea was already 5 years past the usual time when Korean BW players had given up the mouse. Players who had done more, who had shown more potential than him, had long given up. They told him he was too old, too slow, and his time was up. The smart choice would have been to move on, to let go. No one would have blamed him; in fact no one would have noticed. The only one who would have blamed Nestea was Nestea. And that was all it took and Nestea, completely incapable of giving up his dream, would take on the challenge one last time and the world would be his witness."
Yo man I just had to quote that cause that was some fantastic fucking writing there man, legit felt pumped after reading that A+
Fantastic work and can't wait for part 3
Ir hurts that my morals wouldn't let me rig the PR to put him higher :[
On April 20 2015 09:00 BongChambers wrote: "The easy choice would have been to move on. Nearing the age of 30, Nestea was already 5 years past the usual time when Korean BW players had given up the mouse. Players who had done more, who had shown more potential than him, had long given up. They told him he was too old, too slow, and his time was up. The smart choice would have been to move on, to let go. No one would have blamed him; in fact no one would have noticed. The only one who would have blamed Nestea was Nestea. And that was all it took and Nestea, completely incapable of giving up his dream, would take on the challenge one last time and the world would be his witness."
Yo man I just had to quote that cause that was some fantastic fucking writing there man, legit felt pumped after reading that A+
Fantastic work and can't wait for part 3
Ir hurts that my morals wouldn't let me rig the PR to put him higher :[
You could have justified it by pointing out that he ran into MVP 6 times in 2011 or he would most likely have another big tournament win. Plus Gainward could have been considered a high tier event. It was almost all played offline (top 32+ was offline) and for the time it was played it had pretty much all the good players. Only big omission was MC. Though Nestea's bracket in it was pretty easy.
Rain, Innovation AND Zest are all in the top10 and MMA only being top6? o.O This ranking becomes more and more random(not in a negative way!) and I am looking forward to stuchiu's initial ranking (prior his research!)!
i don't agree with most of the rankings but this is about as far from random as possible. stu put at least 10x more research into this than any armchair analyst that has posted here or on reddit.
On April 20 2015 16:21 lichter wrote: i don't agree with most of the rankings but this is about as far from random as possible. stu put at least 10x more research into this than any armchair analyst that has posted here or on reddit.
Of course he put tons of research in it and I value his work of this rankings greatly. Random may be the wrong word and as I said I really don't mean it negatively! I don't know what word I need to describe it so I just put random in there. Please don't see it in a negative light, I've loved his readings so far.
On April 20 2015 16:36 lichter wrote: it's probably more like 'unexpected', since i was also surprised at how some of the tournaments ended up weighing with each other
It's one of those instances where you truly have to consider the difference between a player's successes on paper and their importance in the context of the history of the game, and decide what's important in the end. Like that ranking that showed HongUn in the Top 15 earlier - he's a footnote at most in SC2 history.
I think it's because all rankings will be highly subjective; they all depend on how highly you rate certain paths through competitions and the strengths of certain opponents, as well as the true intangibles like innovation. It's just not possible to do this purely objectively, and the only way to do it IMO is how stuchiu's done it, by fully laying out how his biases and opinions have quantified the statistics.
I have a feeling Soulkey will not be on the list despite having an amazing record from 2013. Then theirs Polt, Taeja, Life, herO, MC, PartinG, Mvp. I wonder who will be the five who make it through?
Can we get 16-20 as well so we can see the write ups of sOs, Soulkey, PartinG, and Bomber! I don't know who would be 20 maybe Stephano or one of the hero's.
On April 20 2015 22:01 The Harem King wrote: Can we get 16-20 as well so we can see the write ups of sOs, Soulkey, PartinG, and Bomber! I don't know who would be 20 maybe Stephano or one of the hero's.
I don't think there is any alternative to Stephano here.
On April 20 2015 22:23 hyuu wrote: I was afraid HasuObs would just be top 7-8, but he is top 5 !!! so glad. We couldn't expect less from someone who won EPS GERMANY 6 TIMES
Hasu is at 0, the unreachable idol, he's what everyone wants to be but nobody can reach.
On April 20 2015 22:01 The Harem King wrote: Can we get 16-20 as well so we can see the write ups of sOs, Soulkey, PartinG, and Bomber! I don't know who would be 20 maybe Stephano or one of the hero's.
I don't think there is any alternative to Stephano here.
Stephano/herO/HerO/Puma/Hyun/Jaedong/Dear are all around the same level. You'd have to really look at everything.
On April 20 2015 22:01 The Harem King wrote: Can we get 16-20 as well so we can see the write ups of sOs, Soulkey, PartinG, and Bomber! I don't know who would be 20 maybe Stephano or one of the hero's.
I don't think there is any alternative to Stephano here.
Stephano/herO/HerO/Puma/Hyun/Jaedong/Dear are all around the same level. You'd have to really look at everything.
Wow herO is actually that high? That's pretty surprising for me!
On April 20 2015 22:01 The Harem King wrote: Can we get 16-20 as well so we can see the write ups of sOs, Soulkey, PartinG, and Bomber! I don't know who would be 20 maybe Stephano or one of the hero's.
I don't think there is any alternative to Stephano here.
Stephano/herO/HerO/Puma/Hyun/Jaedong/Dear are all around the same level. You'd have to really look at everything.
Wow herO is actually that high? That's pretty surprising for me!
herO has been Top 10 P, cracking near top 5 P (or possibly in Top 5 P) for the latter half of 2012 (WoL). He fell off adjusting to HotS for all of 2013. Got 3 IEMS, runner up at IEM WC, Top 2 Kespa Cup, Top 4 Stockholm, Top 4 Code S.
He doesn't have the innovation of Stephano, but his refinement criteria is as good or better. In terms of years it's about the same as Stephano in more recent years. I'd have to measure everything else he did, but I wouldn't dismiss those 6 out of hand for Stephano as 20th.
Alot of people are bringing up Bomber as top 5, but I just don't see it. His accomplishments are dwarfed in the face of NesTea and MMA. What has he actually accomplished that makes him so great, other than his personality?
Really, Taeja top 5, and not Nestea. That doesn't sit well with me. Anyway, it's a great write-up nevertheless.
So, Parting, MC, Mvp, Taeja and Life must be the other players on the list. I can't imagine anything else. Or is Parting replaced with Soulkey? That would be horrendous. Sad to see so many legendary players left out of this list.
Could someone refresh my memory on what is meant by that Stephano's builds were nerfed to the ground, by the way?
EDIT: oh wait, Parting didn't make the list.. Soulkey neither. This is what the list ought to be like then:
On April 21 2015 11:11 cheekymonkey wrote: Really, Taeja top 5, and not Nestea. That doesn't sit well with me. Anyway, it's a great write-up nevertheless.
So, Parting, MC, Mvp, Taeja and Life must be the other players on the list. I can't imagine anything else. Or is Parting replaced with Soulkey? That would be horrendous. Sad to see so many legendary players left out of this list.
Could someone refresh my memory on what is meant by that Stephano's builds were nerfed to the ground, by the way?
EDIT: oh wait, Parting didn't make the list.. Soulkey neither. This is what the list ought to be like then:
5. Stephano 4. Taeja 3. MC 2. Life 1. Mvp
please
Stephano is in contention for #20. It's gonna be Polt.
There will never be part 3. These two "parts" are just an elaborate setup tactically omitting sufficiently more than 5 players so that people can argue forever about how the fuck X did not make the final 5 without actually seeing a final 5 ever.
I shed tears reading Nestea's section. I won't lie. What a man. I expect MVP, Life and Parting in top 5. I always feel Parting doesn't get enough credit. He has been one of most consistent player in GSL, even more than MC.
On April 21 2015 08:48 nozemsagogo wrote: honestly taeja doesn't make this list for me
Find a longer wiki of achievements.
quality of achievements > quantity of achievements Taeja not on a top 15 list is ridiculous though, but top 5 is arguable imo
I wouldn't even say that. Spots 1 and 2 are clearly locked up by Life and Mvp. No argument whatsoever.
For spots 5-3 I'd say only MC, PartinG, MMA, and maybe Polt are competitive with Taeja.
- MC has the advantage of winning 2/3 gsl finals he's been in (something Taeja never did). He has a staggering wiki page and slightly better longevity than Taeja. Difference is, Taeja has tons of gold and MC has a truckload of silver. Not only that, Taeja has far better longevity as a top-tier player, MC has never been among top 5 Protoss post-HotS. Although, to MC's credit he's had far bigger impact on his race and he's proven to clearly be more successful in a preparation-based format. Taeja didn't really do well in WCS AM despite the weaker competition. I'd rank Taeja ahead of him, but he has the best chance of overtaking Taeja imo.
- PartinG has the edge in consistency (especially since he's mostly been in Korea) and innovation, but Taeja hit higher peaks and simply won more shit. Taeja has had more adversity to overcome in terms of balance and his wrists as well.
- MMA has a truckload of premiere championships, has proven to be much better in terms of preparation, and actually has Korean/WCS wins. Yet, he also has that 9-12 month period of being almost totally irrelevant. Taeja has no such period and has comparable longevity. Not to mention, some of Taeja's peaks were in Terran's darkest hour.
- Polt blows Taeja out of the water in WCS AM, but I think he only has a slight edge in Korea. He's a gsl champ and had numerous code S appearances but only one ro8+ finish besides the gsl win. Not to mention, most of those were in 2011 when Terran was op. Taeja oddly did his best in the gsl during the BL/infestor era and generally faced tougher competition even outside of balance. Taeja really holds the advantage in foreign events though. Even with his disappointing WCS AM appearances he still won or placed highly at far more tournaments abroad than Polt did.
I'm still a bit disappointed that Polt is valued higher than MMA (and don't believe Parting is in top 5), however, Stuchio made a great attempt at assigning value to different achievements and consistency and longevity.
On April 21 2015 17:03 JunkkaGom wrote: I shed tears reading Nestea's section. I won't lie. What a man. I expect MVP, Life and Parting in top 5. I always feel Parting doesn't get enough credit. He has been one of most consistent player in GSL, even more than MC.
On April 21 2015 17:03 JunkkaGom wrote: I shed tears reading Nestea's section. I won't lie. What a man. I expect MVP, Life and Parting in top 5. I always feel Parting doesn't get enough credit. He has been one of most consistent player in GSL, even more than MC.
Your speech after NesTea's win is one of my favourite memories in starcraft
Dunno if it has been said, but after reading MMA's part, I think a couple of words about Kaoru's contribution are missing :
Kaoru was the guy behind the scene in Iron Squid I, managing brackets and relationship with players and he had a also a big role in Team Acer oraganization. MMA was the star of Ironsquid I, not only on stage but also back stage where everybody wouldn't stop talking about how nice and chamring he was. The minute when Slayers drama was revealed to the world, someone (Lelfe? O'Gaming TV guys must know...) twitted 'go get MMA' to Kaoru, but he didn't need to be convinced. Within a few days MMA had a contract, a nice team, a cool environment : everything was set to allow him to come back.
Ofc if Kaoru hadn't be so dilligent and efficient MMA may have found another great team, but he could also have wasted a lot of time as a free agent, started doubting or eventually simply retire.
Kaoru and Acer truely believed in MMA and the speed with which they gave him all he needed to reconstruct himself is, imho, a huge factor in MMA's career.
On April 20 2015 22:01 The Harem King wrote: Can we get 16-20 as well so we can see the write ups of sOs, Soulkey, PartinG, and Bomber! I don't know who would be 20 maybe Stephano or one of the hero's.
I don't think there is any alternative to Stephano here.
Stephano/herO/HerO/Puma/Hyun/Jaedong/Dear are all around the same level. You'd have to really look at everything.
Stephano so low ? I guess we understand sc2 very differently ...
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
The same is for Brood War - NaDa and Flash has the same amount of Golds (unless you count Flash's GOM which seems unfair); yet Flash is GOAT and NaDa has more silvers and was relevant for many many years. In fact the distance between his first and last gold is greater than is the case of July.
Cmon son. All three of Nada's MSLs and one of his OSLs came in 2002-03. The competition back then wasn't even close to as good as it was when Flash was destroying everyone. No player ever reached Flash's peak and he won as many titles as anyone else, so he's the best.
By that logic BoxeR's accomplishments wheren't that impressive - 2 OSL and 1 KPGA? Come on, that's not on par even with July, especially given how some of the maps were terran favored.
The argument against NaDa is hard to swallow. He was literally on top of the world winning 3 titles in a row and an OSL shortly after that. He overcome personal tragedy and returned to the top to win golden mouse but also his longevity was unparalleled. The last starleague he qualified for was at the time when Jaedong already had Golden Mouse and the one just before Flash's rampage.
It's not about absolute skill level, it's about your relation with your peers - that's defining quality of a GOAT.
I would put both NaDa and JD above Flash in BW... if you look at all achievements and their games in tournaments reveals who they had to play and what matchups they played the most. Its easy to come to conclusion that JD > Flash...
Hint: Flash won the most during dark time for protoss(2009-2010... barely any protoss on his way to titles), while JD won during dragon era AND ZvT + ZvZ era... its far more telling that JD performed quite well during era where he played 80% of "bad" matchups... than it is for Flash winning most of it during "good" matchups... and again falling off when Jangbi woke up and won 2 in a row... going over Flash and Fantasy in both
If you have in mind that in BW it was P>T>Z>P SLIGHTLY and ZvZ being worst mirror matchup... its insane that JD won so much going over mostly Z and T players... and Flash played mostly TvZ, and some TvT (matchup were better player usually wins)... like 80% of games were favored matchup + TvT...
On April 21 2015 08:48 nozemsagogo wrote: honestly taeja doesn't make this list for me
Find a longer wiki of achievements.
quality of achievements > quantity of achievements Taeja not on a top 15 list is ridiculous though, but top 5 is arguable imo
I wouldn't even say that. Spots 1 and 2 are clearly locked up by Life and Mvp. No argument whatsoever.
For spots 5-3 I'd say only MC, PartinG, MMA, and maybe Polt are competitive with Taeja.
- MC has the advantage of winning 2/3 gsl finals he's been in (something Taeja never did). He has a staggering wiki page and slightly better longevity than Taeja. Difference is, Taeja has tons of gold and MC has a truckload of silver. Not only that, Taeja has far better longevity as a top-tier player, MC has never been among top 5 Protoss post-HotS. Although, to MC's credit he's had far bigger impact on his race and he's proven to clearly be more successful in a preparation-based format. Taeja didn't really do well in WCS AM despite the weaker competition. I'd rank Taeja ahead of him, but he has the best chance of overtaking Taeja imo.
- PartinG has the edge in consistency (especially since he's mostly been in Korea) and innovation, but Taeja hit higher peaks and simply won more shit. Taeja has had more adversity to overcome in terms of balance and his wrists as well.
- MMA has a truckload of premiere championships, has proven to be much better in terms of preparation, and actually has Korean/WCS wins. Yet, he also has that 9-12 month period of being almost totally irrelevant. Taeja has no such period and has comparable longevity. Not to mention, some of Taeja's peaks were in Terran's darkest hour.
- Polt blows Taeja out of the water in WCS AM, but I think he only has a slight edge in Korea. He's a gsl champ and had numerous code S appearances but only one ro8+ finish besides the gsl win. Not to mention, most of those were in 2011 when Terran was op. Taeja oddly did his best in the gsl during the BL/infestor era and generally faced tougher competition even outside of balance. Taeja really holds the advantage in foreign events though. Even with his disappointing WCS AM appearances he still won or placed highly at far more tournaments abroad than Polt did.
All in all I think Taeja firmly holds #3.
Well my problem with Taeja is that he never won a wcs tournament. Not even the NA one. Then when i look at his gold medals, there are a ton of tournaments he won which aren't really anywhere near the competitiveness of a korean tournamet. He won a lot, but of all these tournaments maybe 3-4 are actually impressive. He still has a lot of other results (i mean top 4 is also something you should consider imo), but for the most part that's all "only" weekend style foreign competition. Maybe i undervalue these tournaments, but i also think most people overvalue it
On April 21 2015 02:10 DinosaurJones wrote: 5. MC 4. TaeJa 3. Polt 2. MVP 1. Life
My take on it.
No way Polt is getting in the top 5, let alone 3rd.
You can't have this list without Polt, IMO. He has been relevant since his GSL win in 2011 (I hope it was 2011 or I'm going to look really stupid), and has been a top-tier player for nearly his entire career.
On April 19 2015 07:00 Soularion wrote: It's funny to think how much current success influences opinion.
Yeah it looks like PartinG is some god that spams top4. Funny to see that nobody read the criteria too, being 13times in code S means nothing for this ranking.
Is the top 5 going to be split into two weeks worth of articles, or is this done next week? And by two weeks, I mean rank 5-1 next week, and then rank 0 entire week dedicated to all of Mvp's accomplishments?
Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Hmmm... DIMAGA, IdrA, Snute, Scarlett, Thorzain, Nerchio, Jinro, HuK, just to name a few (not in any sort of order)
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Hmmm... DIMAGA, IdrA, Snute, Scarlett, Thorzain, Nerchio, Jinro, HuK, just to name a few (not in any sort of order)
Also some of the Chinese players too like Jim and macsed.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
idra, thorzain and maybe even TLO should all be higher than scarlett. Idra used to be a top 5 zerg back in the day, and both thorzain and idra won premier tournaments as opposed to scarlett.
i would also rate jinro higher on the list, he reached the GSL semis twice and also won an MLG event. he was the original foreign hope together with idra and TLO.
On April 19 2015 10:44 Jermius wrote: To make Bomber's exclusion even more confusing, he essentially has an even record (24-25) against the top 5 (assuming Taeja, MC, Polt, Life, couldn't find match stats for MVP). Taeja also has like a 65% win rate against the top 15 for people trying to discredit a player's success for playing foreign tournaments.
Statistical analysis hype! great comment
That just means that when Bomber was strong, he was on par with the best, and when he sucked they won titles and he didn't even have opportunity to play against them.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
idra, thorzain and maybe even TLO should all be higher than scarlett. Idra used to be a top 5 zerg back in the day, and both thorzain and idra won premier tournaments as opposed to scarlett.
i would also rate jinro higher on the list, he reached the GSL semis twice and also won an MLG event. he was the original foreign hope together with idra and TLO.
I think there's a huge gap between the top 6 and the rest. I ranked Scarlett really high even though she never won a premiere because even just placing highly at the premieres she did is a bigger accomplishment than winning some of the 2010-early 2012 Premieres. She rose in a era where not just Koreans, but top-tier Koreans began to regularly attend foreign events.
Jinro is awesome and iirc was one of the original macro Terrans (innovation points!). Yet, he doesn't really have the longevity edge. Jinro just kinda faded away come mid 2011. Scarlett outlasted him by quite a large margin even though she appeared much later and consistently went up against harder competition even relative to her era.
Likewise, ThorZain's wins came when the Korean invasion was light. Bonus points for being another innovative Terran.
TLO is not even remotely close to Scarlett. He narrowly cracks my top 15 since he managed to play both Terran and Zerg at a high level, had to take a break because of his CTS (which impacted his results) and he's been around forever. Still, he's never won a premiere either and has never looked as fearsome as Scarlett did.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
I feel like Welmu or elfi should be on this list, considering their results.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
You should feel solid about top 1 only, even NaNiwa > HuK is not obvious at the very least and I'd probably choose HuK over NaNiwa as 2nd.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
You should feel solid about top 1 only, even NaNiwa > HuK is not obvious at the very least and I'd probably choose HuK over NaNiwa as 2nd.
Naniwa made it to Blizzcon in 2013, this alone dwarfs anything Huk did in his career.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
You should feel solid about top 1 only, even NaNiwa > HuK is not obvious at the very least and I'd probably choose HuK over NaNiwa as 2nd.
Naniwa made it to Blizzcon in 2013, this alone dwarfs anything Huk did in his career.
Huk used to be really good a very long time ago and then fell off rather quickly, while Naniwa was probably weaker initially, but was able to keep high level for a long time. He was so confident in his skill that he almost defeated a multiple GSL champion using only workers.
On April 22 2015 02:01 Dreamer.T wrote: Should do a top 15 foreigner too if you have the time or energy stuchiu, I'm sure it would be just as awesome debating who will come after Stephano/Naniwa/Sen.
Foreigners are hard. Only really feel solid about the top 6
15) TLO 14) Mana 13) Jim 12) Jinro 11) Vortix 10) Idra 9) Bunny 8) Nerchio 7) ThorZain 6) Scarlett 5) Snute 4) Sen 3) Huk 2) Naniwa 1) Stephano (by a mile)
You should feel solid about top 1 only, even NaNiwa > HuK is not obvious at the very least and I'd probably choose HuK over NaNiwa as 2nd.
apart from the first place which is obvious, i agree that for the future foreigner ranking of stuchiu, the top 2-6 is gonna be really hard
Naniwa > Stephano. He stayed at the very top of foreignerdom for waaay longer than Stephano and beat Nestea and Mvp when they were still among the best players in the game.
On April 23 2015 05:20 ClueClueClue wrote: Naniwa > Stephano. He stayed at the very top of foreignerdom for waaay longer than Stephano and beat Nestea and Mvp when they were still among the best players in the game.
On April 23 2015 05:20 ClueClueClue wrote: Naniwa > Stephano. He stayed at the very top of foreignerdom for waaay longer than Stephano and beat Nestea and Mvp when they were still among the best players in the game.
*Looks at country* Yep, he's Swedish.
Way to discret my point... sure, Stephano WON more tournaments, but Naniwa was a championship contender for three whole years, even after the Kespa switch, and then recently made a pretty strong comeback. Stephano had his period of dominance, but it didn't last as long and he sort of faded as soon as the elephants made their presence known in the room.
On April 23 2015 05:20 ClueClueClue wrote: Naniwa > Stephano. He stayed at the very top of foreignerdom for waaay longer than Stephano and beat Nestea and Mvp when they were still among the best players in the game.
*Looks at country* Yep, he's Swedish.
Way to discret my point... sure, Stephano WON more tournaments, but Naniwa was a championship contender for three whole years, even after the Kespa switch, and then recently made a pretty strong comeback. Stephano had his period of dominance, but it didn't last as long and he sort of faded as soon as the elephants made their presence known in the room.
It's not that big a difference timewise. Stephano went 'passive' in the later half of 2013, Naniwa at early 2014. Stephano won more and his run in the GSL World Championship 2012 still makes him the best foreigner ever imo. (though i guess naniwa couldnt prove himself there as his mouse was stolen )
On April 23 2015 05:20 ClueClueClue wrote: Naniwa > Stephano. He stayed at the very top of foreignerdom for waaay longer than Stephano and beat Nestea and Mvp when they were still among the best players in the game.
*Looks at country* Yep, he's Swedish.
Way to discret my point... sure, Stephano WON more tournaments, but Naniwa was a championship contender for three whole years, even after the Kespa switch, and then recently made a pretty strong comeback. Stephano had his period of dominance, but it didn't last as long and he sort of faded as soon as the elephants made their presence known in the room.
It's not that big a difference timewise. Stephano went 'passive' in the later half of 2013, Naniwa at early 2014. Stephano won more and his run in the GSL World Championship 2012 still makes him the best foreigner ever imo. (though i guess naniwa couldnt prove himself there as his mouse was stolen )
On April 23 2015 05:20 ClueClueClue wrote: Naniwa > Stephano. He stayed at the very top of foreignerdom for waaay longer than Stephano and beat Nestea and Mvp when they were still among the best players in the game.
*Looks at country* Yep, he's Swedish.
Way to discret my point... sure, Stephano WON more tournaments, but Naniwa was a championship contender for three whole years, even after the Kespa switch, and then recently made a pretty strong comeback. Stephano had his period of dominance, but it didn't last as long and he sort of faded as soon as the elephants made their presence known in the room.
Stephano's fall had nothing to do with Kespa considering he began to repeatedly underperform in tournaments where Kespa had no presence whatsoever. Not to mention, he went 6-5 in SPL (which was actually better or comparable to everyone on EG-TL).
Stephano was far more consistent against Koreans than Naniwa ever was. Even in the nadir of his career, Stephano managed to reach a WCS final, something no foreigner has ever accomplished.
Now, I know what you're thinking, "omg, BL/INFESTOR!". Yeah, but Stephano has a considerably larger sampling and you have to also consider that no other top-tier 2012 foreign Zerg had the all-around dominance Stephano did in the 3 match ups which is indicative of his skill rather than balance. ZvZ was his only kryptonite. Aside from that he was indistinguishable from the Koreans and was legitimately top-tier in ZvP.
As impressive as it is to reach the WCS finals, I'd like to point out that Stephano did it in the easiest season of post 2012 WCS ever, where only 4 koreans played in EU that season.
On April 23 2015 05:20 ClueClueClue wrote: Naniwa > Stephano. He stayed at the very top of foreignerdom for waaay longer than Stephano and beat Nestea and Mvp when they were still among the best players in the game.
*Looks at country* Yep, he's Swedish.
Way to discret my point... sure, Stephano WON more tournaments, but Naniwa was a championship contender for three whole years, even after the Kespa switch, and then recently made a pretty strong comeback. Stephano had his period of dominance, but it didn't last as long and he sort of faded as soon as the elephants made their presence known in the room.
Stephano's fall had nothing to do with Kespa considering he began to repeatedly underperform in tournaments where Kespa had no presence whatsoever. Not to mention, he went 6-5 in SPL (which was actually better or comparable to everyone on EG-TL).
Stephano was far more consistent against Koreans than Naniwa ever was. Even in the nadir of his career, Stephano managed to reach a WCS final, something no foreigner has ever accomplished.
Now, I know what you're thinking, "omg, BL/INFESTOR!". Yeah, but Stephano has a considerably larger sampling and you have to also consider that no other top-tier 2012 foreign Zerg had the all-around dominance Stephano did in the 3 match ups which is indicative of his skill rather than balance. ZvZ was his only kryptonite. Aside from that he was indistinguishable from the Koreans and was legitimately top-tier in ZvP.
Regardless of broodlords/infestors, Stephano did much more for his race anyway.
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