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Greatest Players of All Time: Part 1 - Page 27

Forum Index > SC2 General
752 CommentsPost a Reply
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Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-13 02:28:44
April 13 2015 02:25 GMT
#521
On April 13 2015 05:42 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2015 05:00 Elentos wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:57 Yorkie wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:30 Elentos wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:20 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 13 2015 03:30 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 13 2015 03:24 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 12 2015 23:05 Zealously wrote:
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote:
its not getting embarrassing?


The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.


The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.

Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!


That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.

The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.

I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!

I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3


No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.

You complain about the thread being locked

I say why the thread was locked

For some reason you think this is a straw man

EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19320 Posts
April 13 2015 02:51 GMT
#522
On April 13 2015 11:25 Darkhorse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2015 05:42 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 13 2015 05:00 Elentos wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:57 Yorkie wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:30 Elentos wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:20 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 13 2015 03:30 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 13 2015 03:24 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 12 2015 23:05 Zealously wrote:
On April 12 2015 23:00 Disarmed wrote:
its not getting embarrassing?


The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.


The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.

Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!


That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.

The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.

I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!

I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3


No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.

You complain about the thread being locked

I say why the thread was locked

For some reason you think this is a straw man

EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager

Often people forget that Teamliquid is 90% unpaid staff with family/jobs/school working extremely hard to share quality content for the gaming community. I am fine with people having a difference of opinion from TL staff, but how about having some damn respect.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
shockaslim
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1105 Posts
April 13 2015 04:50 GMT
#523
I just cannot fathom how Nestea is ahead of MC on so many lists.
Dirty Deeds...DONE DIRT CHEAP!!!
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
April 13 2015 05:32 GMT
#524
On April 13 2015 11:51 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2015 11:25 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 13 2015 05:42 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 13 2015 05:00 Elentos wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:57 Yorkie wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:30 Elentos wrote:
On April 13 2015 04:20 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 13 2015 03:30 Darkhorse wrote:
On April 13 2015 03:24 Doodsmack wrote:
On April 12 2015 23:05 Zealously wrote:
[quote]

The "discussion" was embarrassing, which is why it was closed. Everything that could be said has been said, and if new information comes to light that might warrant a thread. Until then, there is nothing to be gained by having a thread dedicated to a massive circular argument on TL.


The fact that TL is stifling discussion about ongoing matchfixing in SC2 is what's embarassing. The importance of the issue in and of itself warrants a thread, period. But I guess TL wants it quiet just like Blizzard and KeSPA.

Yeah TL is part of a massive conspiracy to cover this all up. If only they had allowed some people on this forum to keep saying the same thing over and over again/make baseless accusations then we would have all the answers about match fixing for sure!


That was a cool straw man but I still fail to see how closing discussion on arguably the most important issue facing the game is better in the long run.

The "discussion" was uncivilized, hateful, respectless, and ultimately pointless as everything that needed to be said was said. There was nothing wrong with closing that thread. The discussion ran its course far before the thread was closed.

I will now throw argumentative buzzwords at you! Straw man! Ad hominem! Logical fallacies! Wake up sheeple!

I mean, I guess those are good ways to keep a "discussion" going. :3


No actually he used a straw man. I can tell you about lots of threads on TL that have not much direction and heated internet arguments. That doesn't necessarily mean a discussion should not be happening, considering it's an exaggeration to say that every post was a circle jerk.

You complain about the thread being locked

I say why the thread was locked

For some reason you think this is a straw man

EDIT: Anyway yeah no Stephano isn't going to be on the list I'd wager

Often people forget that Teamliquid is 90% unpaid staff with family/jobs/school working extremely hard to share quality content for the gaming community. I am fine with people having a difference of opinion from TL staff, but how about having some damn respect.


Sadly lots of people on the internet decide to be complete asshats for no good reason other than because they can get away with it.
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-13 05:50:04
April 13 2015 05:33 GMT
#525
On April 12 2015 03:36 Zealously wrote:
CAN YOU GUESS THE PLAYERS THAT WILL BE IN PART 2?

I'll buy you 3 months of TL+ if you guess right, 6 if you get the order right


Hmmm

Top 5 for me are (not in any order)
1. Mvp
2. Life
3. Taeja
4. Zest
5. MC

So this five would be:
1. Nestea
2. Stephano (foreign bias riding him in)
3. Polt
4. MMA
5. Innovation
cheekymonkey
Profile Joined January 2014
France1387 Posts
April 13 2015 05:36 GMT
#526
On April 13 2015 14:33 Pandain wrote:

Hmmm

Top 5 for me are (not in any order)
1. Mvp
2. Life
3. Taeja
4. Life
5. MC


I would be very surprised if this was the top 5 picks.
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
April 13 2015 05:49 GMT
#527
On April 13 2015 14:36 cheekymonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2015 14:33 Pandain wrote:

Hmmm

Top 5 for me are (not in any order)
1. Mvp
2. Life
3. Taeja
4. Life
5. MC


I would be very surprised if this was the top 5 picks.

Haha oh no!
Let me rethink this then!
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-13 06:12:08
April 13 2015 06:03 GMT
#528
On April 12 2015 03:36 Zealously wrote:
CAN YOU GUESS THE PLAYERS THAT WILL BE IN PART 2?

I'll buy you 3 months of TL+ if you guess right, 6 if you get the order right


Part 3

1. Mvp
2. Life
3. Taeja
4. MC
5. MMA

Part 2

6. Parting
7. Polt
8. Zest
9. Innovation
10. Bomber

Personally I believe Polt and MMA should be switched, but I think this is how the rankings will go. Maybe Rain instead of NesTea, but I doubt it given how high MKP got by being a pioneer.

edit: ugh, forgot Bomber... now I have to redo this. Nah, nvm, just gonna take NesTea out and replace with Bomber.
In Somnis Veritas
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
April 13 2015 06:06 GMT
#529
i will never understand why people rate parting so highly
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
April 13 2015 06:12 GMT
#530
On April 13 2015 15:06 lichter wrote:
i will never understand why people rate parting so highly


Choo choo
In Somnis Veritas
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
April 13 2015 06:19 GMT
#531
On April 13 2015 15:12 Pursuit_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2015 15:06 lichter wrote:
i will never understand why people rate parting so highly


Choo choo


to be fair that's the only pvz build i know by heart
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
cheekymonkey
Profile Joined January 2014
France1387 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-13 07:04:48
April 13 2015 07:03 GMT
#532
Parting's always been my favorite protoss. The thing I remember most distinctly is his 1 gate 3 nexus 8 gate build, excellent templar usage, and immortal all-ins. He really innovated protoss.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
April 13 2015 07:16 GMT
#533
On April 13 2015 15:19 lichter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2015 15:12 Pursuit_ wrote:
On April 13 2015 15:06 lichter wrote:
i will never understand why people rate parting so highly


Choo choo


to be fair that's the only pvz build i know by heart


People want SC2 to be pro wrestling and Parting cuts the best promos next to MC.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
April 13 2015 07:21 GMT
#534
Taeja for me would only be in 6th-10th range not top 5. He always falls short in the most competitive tournaments like GSL.
nimdil
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland3753 Posts
April 13 2015 08:13 GMT
#535
On April 13 2015 15:06 lichter wrote:
i will never understand why people rate parting so highly

He was runner-up of both GSL and Blizzard Cup, he won WCS World Championships, was second in asia and third in WCS Korea in 2012, collected NesTea award, won three other premier titles.

And on top of that derailed Flash hype train on more than one occasion.
negativedge
Profile Joined December 2011
4279 Posts
April 13 2015 08:47 GMT
#536
On April 13 2015 15:06 lichter wrote:
i will never understand why people rate parting so highly


he's been a top five player in his race for three straight years. how many players can say that?
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
April 13 2015 09:10 GMT
#537
On April 13 2015 14:33 Pandain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2015 03:36 Zealously wrote:
CAN YOU GUESS THE PLAYERS THAT WILL BE IN PART 2?

I'll buy you 3 months of TL+ if you guess right, 6 if you get the order right


Hmmm

Top 5 for me are (not in any order)
1. Mvp
2. Life
3. Taeja
4. Zest
5. MC

So this five would be:
1. Nestea
2. Stephano (foreign bias riding him in)
3. Polt
4. MMA
5. Innovation

Holy bejesus zest too high

Also Stephano nah. Parting
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
Philozovic
Profile Joined August 2012
France1677 Posts
April 13 2015 11:11 GMT
#538
Part #2 :

10 Rain
9 Innovation
8 Zest
7 Polt
6 Nestea
INnoVation is the absolute best | I wept for i knew his words to be true
nimdil
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland3753 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-13 12:46:13
April 13 2015 12:19 GMT
#539
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/482893-lets-vote-on-stuchius-top-10-of-goats <- thread

#10
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #10 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (18)
 
12%

Dear (2)
 
1%

herO (CJ herO) (12)
 
8%

INnoVation (21)
 
14%

Life (4)
 
3%

MC (1)
 
1%

MMA (4)
 
3%

Mvp (8)
 
5%

Nestea (8)
 
5%

Parting (8)
 
5%

Polt (8)
 
5%

sOs (6)
 
4%

Stephano (27)
 
18%

Soulkey (5)
 
3%

TaeJa (5)
 
3%

Zest (9)
 
6%

Someone else (7)
 
5%

153 total votes

Your vote: #10 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else



#9
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #9 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (10)
 
10%

Dear (0)
 
0%

herO (CJ herO) (3)
 
3%

INnoVation (7)
 
7%

Life (0)
 
0%

MC (2)
 
2%

MMA (2)
 
2%

Mvp (2)
 
2%

Nestea (8)
 
8%

Parting (27)
 
28%

Polt (3)
 
3%

sOs (7)
 
7%

Soulkey (4)
 
4%

Stephano (6)
 
6%

TaeJa (1)
 
1%

Zest (11)
 
11%

Someone else (5)
 
5%

98 total votes

Your vote: #9 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else



#8
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #8 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (2)
 
2%

Dear (1)
 
1%

herO (CJ herO) (5)
 
5%

INnoVation (22)
 
24%

Life (1)
 
1%

MC (2)
 
2%

MMA (4)
 
4%

Mvp (2)
 
2%

Nestea (4)
 
4%

Parting (11)
 
12%

Polt (9)
 
10%

sOs (5)
 
5%

Soulkey (3)
 
3%

Stephano (3)
 
3%

TaeJa (2)
 
2%

Zest (11)
 
12%

Someone else (6)
 
6%

93 total votes

Your vote: #8 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else




#7
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #7 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (3)
 
3%

Dear (0)
 
0%

herO (CJ herO) (3)
 
3%

INnoVation (21)
 
21%

Life (1)
 
1%

MC (5)
 
5%

MMA (6)
 
6%

Mvp (2)
 
2%

Nestea (14)
 
14%

Parting (8)
 
8%

Polt (9)
 
9%

sOs (2)
 
2%

Soulkey (4)
 
4%

Stephano (3)
 
3%

TaeJa (8)
 
8%

Zest (8)
 
8%

Someone else (2)
 
2%

99 total votes

Your vote: #7 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else




#6
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #6 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (3)
 
3%

Dear (1)
 
1%

herO (CJ herO) (5)
 
5%

INnoVation (4)
 
4%

Life (2)
 
2%

MC (5)
 
5%

MMA (6)
 
6%

Mvp (2)
 
2%

Nestea (13)
 
13%

Parting (8)
 
8%

Polt (27)
 
27%

sOs (1)
 
1%

Soulkey (1)
 
1%

Stephano (4)
 
4%

TaeJa (6)
 
6%

Zest (9)
 
9%

Someone else (3)
 
3%

100 total votes

Your vote: #6 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else



#5
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #5 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (2)
 
2%

Dear (0)
 
0%

herO (CJ herO) (3)
 
3%

INnoVation (2)
 
2%

Life (3)
 
3%

MC (7)
 
6%

MMA (29)
 
25%

Mvp (2)
 
2%

Nestea (27)
 
23%

Parting (11)
 
9%

Polt (6)
 
5%

sOs (5)
 
4%

Soulkey (0)
 
0%

Stephano (4)
 
3%

TaeJa (10)
 
9%

Zest (3)
 
3%

Someone else (2)
 
2%

116 total votes

Your vote: #5 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else



#4
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #4 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (4)
 
3%

Dear (0)
 
0%

herO (CJ herO) (1)
 
1%

INnoVation (4)
 
3%

Life (3)
 
2%

MC (32)
 
26%

MMA (36)
 
29%

Mvp (2)
 
2%

Nestea (8)
 
7%

Parting (3)
 
2%

Polt (2)
 
2%

sOs (1)
 
1%

Soulkey (2)
 
2%

Stephano (2)
 
2%

TaeJa (20)
 
16%

Zest (3)
 
2%

Someone else (0)
 
0%

123 total votes

Your vote: #4 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else



#3
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #3 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (2)
 
1%

Dear (1)
 
1%

herO (CJ herO) (2)
 
1%

INnoVation (2)
 
1%

Life (11)
 
8%

MC (42)
 
30%

MMA (7)
 
5%

Mvp (6)
 
4%

Nestea (6)
 
4%

Parting (3)
 
2%

Polt (2)
 
1%

sOs (1)
 
1%

Soulkey (0)
 
0%

Stephano (4)
 
3%

TaeJa (49)
 
35%

Zest (4)
 
3%

Someone else (0)
 
0%

142 total votes

Your vote: #3 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else



#2
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #2 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (4)
 
3%

Dear (0)
 
0%

herO (CJ herO) (1)
 
1%

INnoVation (0)
 
0%

Life (89)
 
58%

MC (10)
 
6%

MMA (4)
 
3%

Mvp (28)
 
18%

Nestea (8)
 
5%

Parting (2)
 
1%

Polt (0)
 
0%

sOs (2)
 
1%

Soulkey (1)
 
1%

Stephano (1)
 
1%

TaeJa (4)
 
3%

Zest (0)
 
0%

Someone else (0)
 
0%

154 total votes

Your vote: #2 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else



#1
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: #1 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

Bomber (3)
 
2%

Dear (1)
 
1%

herO (CJ herO) (2)
 
1%

INnoVation (0)
 
0%

Life (34)
 
17%

MC (0)
 
0%

MMA (1)
 
1%

Mvp (139)
 
71%

Nestea (2)
 
1%

Parting (3)
 
2%

Polt (0)
 
0%

sOs (2)
 
1%

Soulkey (0)
 
0%

Stephano (3)
 
2%

TaeJa (4)
 
2%

Zest (0)
 
0%

Someone else (3)
 
2%

197 total votes

Your vote: #1 on stuchiu's GOATs list will be

(Vote): Bomber
(Vote): Dear
(Vote): herO (CJ herO)
(Vote): INnoVation
(Vote): Life
(Vote): MC
(Vote): MMA
(Vote): Mvp
(Vote): Nestea
(Vote): Parting
(Vote): Polt
(Vote): sOs
(Vote): Soulkey
(Vote): Stephano
(Vote): TaeJa
(Vote): Zest
(Vote): Someone else

SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
April 13 2015 12:36 GMT
#540
that post is too long, can you please spoiler it?
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
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