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Warning for everyone in this thread: I WILL moderate your posts very harshly from now on if you can't have a civil discussion. |
On April 14 2015 22:37 ThunderBum wrote:
In LotV you have more workers before you can afford to spend the income on things, and that is always the case relative to HotS, so the money has to be spent faster in comparison because the income rate is higher relative to where you are in the build.
Well yes, there is a little bit of change cause of the supply "problem"
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So a fix would be to increase the starting money then?
Would probably not be exactly the same but atleast close?
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On April 14 2015 21:15 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 19:25 TheDwf wrote:cause 12 workers collect more than 6 and minerals get there faster, I would assume. Yes; town halls are made earlier, so they make extra workers, which mine more, so the next town halls are made earlier, production comes faster, etc. It speeds up economy/production (hyper-development) → contraction of time. I don't see why this would be true. Unless scv's mine more or move faster the economy won't progress faster than if you would do a normal 12+ worker macro build.
Let's be carefull with it, I think even the very enlightened TheDwf has a slight misconception about it.
The time contraction doesn't come form a magical snowball effect happening at 12 workers. It is indeed correct to say that other things being equal the 12 workers start just skips the time you spent in the 6 workers version to reach your 12th worker.
So no real time contaction per se.
But the real deal is, as allways, in the other things being equal, and the truth is touched by ThunderBum. In HOTS, your mining yields an excess of mineral over your SCV production before you reach your 12th drones. So in fact you are banking for infrastructure before the LOTV start, sometimes to directly expand, but most of the time (for T and P at least) to build your first unit production building.
So in fact, even if every non-cheese build in HOTS don't produce anything before 12 workers, the 12 workers start force you to play "greedier" than many "standard HOTS build, since your tech and unit production come later in comparaison to your economy, relatively to HOTS equivalent (sorry for the convoluted and simply horrible sentence, I'm french after all...).
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On April 14 2015 21:49 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Well I don't know where that's from. But it takes about 1m45sec to get to 12 scvs in Hots. Which is exactly the time difference between the medivac timings and the max supply timing which are the only relevant measures in the table. Due to bases having less minerals you can't really compare base placement or saturation timings as at 10minutes in Lotv the main will have only 4 patches.
No! They are not the only relevant measures in the table. In fact, in a way, they are the only ones irrelevant! ! They're only lined up with the imaginary “105 seconds shift rule” by accident. As I said, the table is from before the SC2 crew halved the value of half the mineral patches, but the core of the “contraction of time” phenomenon is completely unaffected by this.
If there is a “105 seconds shift rule,” then how come the first expansion is only advanced by 40 seconds? How come stim is only advanced by 65 seconds? How come there is a 100 seconds difference for Medivacs? If this is only an artefact because of the approximation in executing builds, then how come the difference suddenly jumps to 120-150 seconds for the timing of the third? How come we reach 50 SCVs 130 seconds earlier? How come the third is saturated 150 seconds earlier? How come the fourth is at least 250 seconds earlier? “I don't know.” You don't know because there is no 105 seconds shift rule!
People fall back on the mirage of a non-existent “X seconds shift rule” because in the moving tide of time, Terran + Show Spoiler +other races as well, naturally, it's just that I took Terran as the example
Starting with 6 workers = 252 income per minute. Starting with 12 workers = 504 income per minute. And yet speed of development would be untouched? More would be equal? How? Is this sorcery? Did maths lie to us? We learnt that 1 = 1, and now 252 = 504? No. Of course not. Even if the individual collection rate of workers was unchanged (another rock!), more is simply more. We're still at T = 0, and yet… contraction of time. The “X seconds shift rule” is easy to break. We should find it in the earliest pool time. 6p = what, 37s? It takes, what, 95s for Zerg to get 12 drones? So LotV 12p should start at, hmm, -58 seconds. Right in the game lobby. Are we stuck in a Black Hole? What happened to reality? Did we kill time? Where is Stephen Hawking? I want to go home.
Ah! Maniak was asking “What's the point of all this?”—what was the point in revealing the big secret. Yes, exactly; I could not have phrased it better. The point of the “big secret” is that time is not only in the player; it's also deeply incrusted within every single dark corner of the game.
+ Show Spoiler +
I have come to remind you something, something you once knew; the “big secret” that yes, time exists. An intuitive idea, so simple, yet so strange and so paradoxical that despite knowing it, you simply… forget it… all the time.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 15 2015 01:00 Karel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 21:15 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On April 14 2015 19:25 TheDwf wrote:cause 12 workers collect more than 6 and minerals get there faster, I would assume. Yes; town halls are made earlier, so they make extra workers, which mine more, so the next town halls are made earlier, production comes faster, etc. It speeds up economy/production (hyper-development) → contraction of time. I don't see why this would be true. Unless scv's mine more or move faster the economy won't progress faster than if you would do a normal 12+ worker macro build. + Show Spoiler +Let's be carefull with it, I think even the very enlightened TheDwf has a slight misconception about it.
The time contraction doesn't come form a magical snowball effect happening at 12 workers. It is indeed correct to say that other things being equal the 12 workers start just skips the time you spent in the 6 workers version to reach your 12th worker.
So no real time contaction per se.
But the real deal is, as allways, in the other things being equal, and the truth is touched by ThunderBum. In HOTS, your mining yields an excess of mineral over your SCV production before you reach your 12th drones. So in fact you are banking for infrastructure before the LOTV start, sometimes to directly expand, but most of the time (for T and P at least) to build your first unit production building.
So in fact, even if every non-cheese build in HOTS don't produce anything before 12 workers, the 12 workers start force you to play "greedier" than many "standard HOTS build, since your tech and unit production come later in comparaison to your economy, relatively to HOTS equivalent (sorry for the convoluted and simply horrible sentence, I'm french after all...).
Yes, exactly. People are confused because, as I said in the text, there are different temporalities. Time is much more than the game timer. That's its paradoxical and plural nature.
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I honestly have no idea where you're going with this, it seems delusional to me.
The 'rocks' you speak about are exactly why there is no contraction of time, as those rocks are the whole definition of the time it takes to gather minerals and build things in the first place. That's why a well executed 4gate hits at the same time on the same map. There are no waves. A contraction of time would mean that things happen faster. Yet still zerglings run at the same speed, build at the same speed, cost the same and require the same amount of mining time to purchase.
Karel does make a good point that the initial conditions are not exactly the same. There is:
- A lateral shift in time from the 6 worker point to the 12 worker point". This obviously changes early game cheeses. Your
-Each race gets shifted slightly in comparison to each other because in HotS they don't arrive at 12 workers at exactly the same time and in LotV they do.
-You also have a higher supply limit in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. This is compensated somewhat by LotV giving you 4 extra supply for your expansion.
-You have more than 50 minerals in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. In LotV you start with 50 minerals. If anything this will make units come out slower in LotV, not faster.
-General economy upkeep is slightly higher in LotV. You need 300 or 400 per base, and in HotS each base gives you 12000 minerals, while in LotV this is only 9000. So you need to spend a higher % of your total income on mining structures instead of units/army buildings. This will also make getting units a little slower.
Nothing in this leads to a faster game besides the initial shift. There is no reduction of control for the players. There is only a reduction of choices as pre-12 worker cheese is no longer possible. Besides this initial conditions are changed a little bit. But even currently initial conditions also change with different maps (expansions further away, mineral patch placement) and this doesn't lead to any major issues either.
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I had a small hope that TheDwf would try to come up with something more than his recent post about time in RTS. I think a lot of people including me agree on the subjects above and yet I don't think that something will change for LoTV. I strongly believe that "casual user" paradigm TheDwf described is the fundamental essence and driving engine of every entertainment industry. And people who want something more shall always be the minority.
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well written and interesting. Best & most true post I've ever read on TL.
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Bisutopia19316 Posts
On April 15 2015 11:42 squrl wrote:
well written and interesting. Best & most true post I've ever read on TL.
You've clearly missed out on all those "SKT best KT" post which are clearly better and more true.
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On April 15 2015 04:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I honestly have no idea where you're going with this, it seems delusional to me.
The 'rocks' you speak about are exactly why there is no contraction of time, as those rocks are the whole definition of the time it takes to gather minerals and build things in the first place. That's why a well executed 4gate hits at the same time on the same map. There are no waves. A contraction of time would mean that things happen faster. Yet still zerglings run at the same speed, build at the same speed, cost the same and require the same amount of mining time to purchase.
Karel does make a good point that the initial conditions are not exactly the same. There is:
- A lateral shift in time from the 6 worker point to the 12 worker point". This obviously changes early game cheeses. Your
-Each race gets shifted slightly in comparison to each other because in HotS they don't arrive at 12 workers at exactly the same time and in LotV they do.
-You also have a higher supply limit in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. This is compensated somewhat by LotV giving you 4 extra supply for your expansion.
-You have more than 50 minerals in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. In LotV you start with 50 minerals. If anything this will make units come out slower in LotV, not faster.
-General economy upkeep is slightly higher in LotV. You need 300 or 400 per base, and in HotS each base gives you 12000 minerals, while in LotV this is only 9000. So you need to spend a higher % of your total income on mining structures instead of units/army buildings. This will also make getting units a little slower.
Nothing in this leads to a faster game besides the initial shift. There is no reduction of control for the players. There is only a reduction of choices as pre-12 worker cheese is no longer possible. Besides this initial conditions are changed a little bit. But even currently initial conditions also change with different maps (expansions further away, mineral patch placement) and this doesn't lead to any major issues either.
You're probably one of those people who argue it doesn't make a difference if you stick with your original choice or choose to switch to the other door on Let's Make a Deal, aren't you?
Even if not, you're committing the same kind of fallacy those people do. What comes before changes what comes after. Economy grows exponentially for all races, and removing time to be aggressive streamlines the growth of the economy. This is exactly why Zerg is so powerful in the current version of the game, and Protoss so weak.
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On April 15 2015 04:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
-You have more than 50 minerals in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. In LotV you start with 50 minerals. If anything this will make units come out slower in LotV, not faster.
This is a fallacy.. A tricky one, but still.
In LotV you start with 50 mineral, less than in HotS at the same worker count. But it wont make units come out slower, it will make your first few units come out slower.
This delay on your first units will skew builds through macro exponential growth, and make, at the end of the road, the huge swell of units come out faster.
It plays out like this, at least for P and T.
-Since you start with 12 workers, 50 minerals and no infrastructure, you are banking money while producing workers much faster then in HotS.
-But you can't efficiently invest this money in more units production buildings, because your tech is delayed and you're waiting for it to build your early game "activ units" (let's say core to go for stalkers, or fac to go hellions).
-So you invest your overflow of minerals in economy, most likely an earlier expand and/or a perfectly uninterrupted workers production.
-As a result you're able to produce big amounts of units faster and the first activ units (yours and the opponent's ones) become irrelevant earlier.
So to sum it up:
Your first units come out later.
They become irrelevant earlier.
Time contraction.
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On April 15 2015 04:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I honestly have no idea where you're going with this, it seems delusional to me.
The 'rocks' you speak about are exactly why there is no contraction of time, as those rocks are the whole definition of the time it takes to gather minerals and build things in the first place. That's why a well executed 4gate hits at the same time on the same map. There are no waves. A contraction of time would mean that things happen faster.
You mean… like this?
Yep, the ETA balance has been de-synchronized in LotV. Technology is faster, but slower. Paradoxical, plural nature of time. Faster in absolute (game timer); relatively slower (because of the sharper economic development). But:
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote:
Should the ETA balance be properly re-calibrated, the central question would still be untouched.
Because we would have still contracted time! By making the construction of buildings faster, or the completion of upgrades earlier, etc. Like Protoss do… since they are endowed with the purest form of the “contraction of time” mechanic. And so SC2 would be faster, despite our dear Zerglings running at the same speed (among various other rocks). Not everything needs to be chronoboosted so we can speak of “contraction of time”!
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
An inspiring read truly. Though I might disagree with some of your points, you rightly herald of the level of unsatisfaction with where Blizzard is driving the game. Something should happen.
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We are all unhappy with the fundamental aspects of the game's pace, but no clear argument is present at OP's post. It is very hard to discuss a point when 10 different people will read 10 different points.
It's funny that someone mentioned Heidegger, because the style discussion in this thread perfectly mimics the analytic/continental divide in philosophy. More Russell, less Derrida, please.
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On April 14 2015 19:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 23:13 Nebuchad wrote:
Then you can't just say "this is bad because time is contracted", which is what you're doing in the first few paragraphs. You have to provide an explanation as to why we're on the bad side of the curve and not on the good side. I said “this is bad because time is over-contracted,” and later in the text I said time was already over-contracted (so naturally, increasing the movement could only make things worse). The explanation is provided: it frustrates players (who lost too much control) and bulldozes strategy (→ “the game is stale”).
That's not an explanation, that's an assertion. Players being frustrated happens in any situation, for any reason, ever. Strategy being bulldozed is related to balance much more than it is related to design. If people realize that some strategies lead to better results than others, they will do them more often, regardless of how much control they have over the whole game.
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On April 15 2015 14:06 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 04:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I honestly have no idea where you're going with this, it seems delusional to me.
The 'rocks' you speak about are exactly why there is no contraction of time, as those rocks are the whole definition of the time it takes to gather minerals and build things in the first place. That's why a well executed 4gate hits at the same time on the same map. There are no waves. A contraction of time would mean that things happen faster. Yet still zerglings run at the same speed, build at the same speed, cost the same and require the same amount of mining time to purchase.
Karel does make a good point that the initial conditions are not exactly the same. There is:
- A lateral shift in time from the 6 worker point to the 12 worker point". This obviously changes early game cheeses. Your
-Each race gets shifted slightly in comparison to each other because in HotS they don't arrive at 12 workers at exactly the same time and in LotV they do.
-You also have a higher supply limit in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. This is compensated somewhat by LotV giving you 4 extra supply for your expansion.
-You have more than 50 minerals in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. In LotV you start with 50 minerals. If anything this will make units come out slower in LotV, not faster.
-General economy upkeep is slightly higher in LotV. You need 300 or 400 per base, and in HotS each base gives you 12000 minerals, while in LotV this is only 9000. So you need to spend a higher % of your total income on mining structures instead of units/army buildings. This will also make getting units a little slower.
Nothing in this leads to a faster game besides the initial shift. There is no reduction of control for the players. There is only a reduction of choices as pre-12 worker cheese is no longer possible. Besides this initial conditions are changed a little bit. But even currently initial conditions also change with different maps (expansions further away, mineral patch placement) and this doesn't lead to any major issues either. You're probably one of those people who argue it doesn't make a difference if you stick with your original choice or choose to switch to the other door on Let's Make a Deal, aren't you?
Well I will admit that it took me quite a while to 'get' that problem. But in the end the math points the right direction for that one. If this is the same thing and I am truly blinded, then apologies. But I feel the math doesn't confirm this case at all and it hits my TB-must-react switch.
On April 15 2015 17:14 Karel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 04:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
-You have more than 50 minerals in HotS when your 12th worker reaches the mineral line. In LotV you start with 50 minerals. If anything this will make units come out slower in LotV, not faster.
This is a fallacy.. A tricky one, but still. Perhaps. But I don't see it.In LotV you start with 50 mineral, less than in HotS at the same worker count. But it wont make units come out slower, it will make your first few units come out slower. This delay on your first units will skew builds through macro exponential growth, and make, at the end of the road, the huge swell of units come out faster. Why would there be extra growth if you have less minerals in the first place.It plays out like this, at least for P and T. -Since you start with 12 workers, 50 minerals and no infrastructure, you are banking money while producing workers much faster then in HotS. Why are you producing faster? Your still limited to worker build speed. You have LESS money upfront. Less money at the start does not lead to a larger economy in the end. Your bank will never be bigger than in Hots. -But you can't efficiently invest this money in more units production buildings, because your tech is delayed and you're waiting for it to build your early game "activ units" (let's say core to go for stalkers, or fac to go hellions). -So you invest your overflow of minerals in economy, most likely an earlier expand and/or a perfectly uninterrupted workers production. There is no overflow. Your tech is delayed because you have a little less starting money. You don't suddenly have extra money to invest in macro instead, you started with less in the first place.
On April 15 2015 17:32 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 04:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I honestly have no idea where you're going with this, it seems delusional to me.
The 'rocks' you speak about are exactly why there is no contraction of time, as those rocks are the whole definition of the time it takes to gather minerals and build things in the first place. That's why a well executed 4gate hits at the same time on the same map. There are no waves. A contraction of time would mean that things happen faster. You mean… like this? Yep, the ETA balance has been de-synchronized in LotV. Technology is faster, but slower. Paradoxical, plural nature of time. Faster in absolute (game timer); relatively slower (because of the sharper economic development). But:
Well I don't know how you got that table as the values seem incorrect. I did a simple test with Jakataks Lotv map of the week in the arcade, which is currently inferno pools. Played a game on that map, and on normal HotS infernal pools.
- Get 3 bases with 16 workers
- Just use hatcheries and drones nothing else as that is the only way for me to get near perfect macro. A better SC2 player than me might get slightly quicker results.
Here's the results:
Heart of the Swarm Inferno Pools:
+ Show Spoiler +
Legacy of the Void test map:
+ Show Spoiler +
In Hots you reach 12 drones at 1:32. This is the 'start' for Hots. You have about 85 minerals and a 13th drone already building. The expansion comes down at about 2:16. This is 44 ingame seconds after 'start'. The third comes down at 3:29. This is 1m57 seconds after 'start'. And you reach full three bases 16 drone saturation at 7:06. This is 5m34s after start.
In LotV you start with 12 drones, and 50 minerals. No 13th drone building and your drones still have to move to the mineral line. This means the expansion comes slower at around 1m13s after start. The third comes slower at 2:29 after start. And three base 16 drones come slower at 5m51s after start.
There's no real difference in banked minerals. LotV is slightly slower. How is this contracted?
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Is the point 6 really true? Sure multiplayer functions were added in SC2 but I remember interviews by Dustin Browder being surprised by the interest of the game as an e-sport.
Also how does the starcraft games fit into this Heartstone graph if you replace randomness with the game's speed resulting in higher amounts of human error. Randomness is vertical and skill is horizontal.
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On April 15 2015 01:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 21:49 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Well I don't know where that's from. But it takes about 1m45sec to get to 12 scvs in Hots. Which is exactly the time difference between the medivac timings and the max supply timing which are the only relevant measures in the table. Due to bases having less minerals you can't really compare base placement or saturation timings as at 10minutes in Lotv the main will have only 4 patches. No! They are not the only relevant measures in the table. In fact, in a way, they are the only ones irrelevant! ! They're only lined up with the imaginary “105 seconds shift rule” by accident. As I said, the table is from before the SC2 crew halved the value of half the mineral patches, but the core of the “contraction of time” phenomenon is completely unaffected by this. If there is a “105 seconds shift rule,” then how come the first expansion is only advanced by 40 seconds? How come stim is only advanced by 65 seconds? How come there is a 100 seconds difference for Medivacs? If this is only an artefact because of the approximation in executing builds, then how come the difference suddenly jumps to 120-150 seconds for the timing of the third? How come we reach 50 SCVs 130 seconds earlier? How come the third is saturated 150 seconds earlier? How come the fourth is at least 250 seconds earlier? “I don't know.” You don't know because there is no 105 seconds shift rule!
I'm pretty sure you know why. The change lets you work with more money on less tech. With the HotS balance in the LotV economy that choice will always go into a faster than usual expansion, and not into additional 3 naked barracks on two bases that - if actually used for production - delay your third timing even beyond the HotS-105 timing. That's when the 105second rule fails.
You can call it contraction of time, but that's not really true. Players deliberately make more economical choices which lead to faster growth, because the tech progression and balance haven't been changed that much. It has nothing to do with the economy itself but with how players approach it.
Though even that isn't quite true, as we see many players deliberately breaking out of you benchmarks to go for ravager rushes and tank drops and dirsuptor drops and so on and then keep the game longer in lower supplies than a unhindered 3hatch 11min roach max or 13min Bomber build would in HotS.
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On April 15 2015 20:27 Nebuchad wrote:
That's not an explanation, that's an assertion. Players being frustrated happens in any situation, for any reason, ever.
No, it precisely doesn't happen for “any reason”. Phenomenons like bad faith, sore losers, cheating, rage, rudeness, etc., all stem from common patterns revolving around control and reward. Why do Neanderthals ping aggressively your minimap and bark orders in broken English like this is the army? Why do people insult you and leave when you don't obey? Why do people love to rage at their incompetent allies in team games? Why do old friends end up yelling at each other at the end of a lost game? Why do children sulk when they lose? Why does Djokovic throw stuff? Why do cool-headed people completely lose their minds and break keyboards? Would we find as many “Mr. Rage” in online chess “communities”?
Frustration comes from lack/loss of control. “I couldn't do anything”. Why does “the support” yell when he's toast again and again and again to “the carry” in lategame? “Help, help! Fuck you, do something!” Because he no longer has the good role, he's powerless. In the early game, the carry was hiding in his forest—pathetic, weak creature almost dying to neutrals in autopilot, pinged by his teammates who were facepalming at his recklessness. Meanwhile, the support was joyfully scoring at the sound of “MEGAKILL!” But tides turn. In lategame, Mr. Support is the weakling and Mr. Carry farms him. Like the creep he has become. And suddenly Mr. Support's mindset changes. He's no longer cheerfully riding into battle like Tulkas, he sulks and grumbles and blames. In a “pub,” he'll often juste leave. Why would he stay? He's useless. The game is being played without him. This is what most SC2 players feel like. From Bronze to pros.
Strategy being bulldozed is related to balance much more than it is related to design. If people realize that some strategies lead to better results than others, they will do them more often, regardless of how much control they have over the whole game.
The separation between “balance” and “design” is artificial and arbitrary; it's a matter of threshold effect. Balancing simply means tweaking the existing (actually or potentially) interactions between eco-productive systems, units, etc. This is why balance naturally shifts over time. All balance issues are related to “design elements” going out of control for some reason. Why was PvP only 4g mirror for months? “Because people realized that this strategy led to better results than others.” That's what's Molière's doctor would say. Why does opium cause sleep? “Quia est in eo virtus dormitiva quæ facit sopire.” — Because it possesses a dormitive power whose nature it is to induce sleep. Hmm? PvP was nothing but 4g because of the design of Warpgate. The strategic diversity was stomped because the contraction of time induced by Warpgate was far too violent for any other option to stand. Because, as you say: some things win, others just don't. Thus the internal balance in PvP was 80% 4g and 20% pre-4g stuff (whatever the actual figures were). And so players had little/no control. Contraction of time had taken its toll. Frustration, stagnation. “Boring, stale match-up”. If we nerf (balance) Warpgate enough so it doesn't happen, we simply end up redesigning PvP's early game (as did the MSC in its own way).
@FueledUpAndReadyToGo: you factored out the “time shift” you wanted to prove so by construction you tested the result you wanted to get. You recreated a situation with no development (using pool/Queens/injects would kill your test). To fall back on the notion of development, you should check your mineral bank at 7:06 too in LotV. And obviously it would be much higher than in HotS, something like 4910. 4910/426 = 11,5 minerals per minute. 2275/426 = 5,34 minerals per minute. Sharper development. Contraction of time. You said it yourself, “A contraction of time would mean that things happen faster”. Well, 2275 minerals in 5:34 instead of 7:06 falls exactly under this category! You're overthinking things. 12 pool doesn't start in the game lobby.
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On April 12 2015 10:04 Penev wrote:
Complaining about writing style sure is a lot more interesting than discussing content; Isn't it guys?
Do you remember LaLush's Depth of Micro video? There was a great deal of complaining by malcontents about it being too polarizing, that the reference to BW wasn't necessary, that his voice lacked affect and so on. The point is that if a piece has a political message which is not shared by someone, they will pick on secondary factors that should be of no concern. Any rational human being would consider that LaLush brought up many interesting facts and that he had a right to have a political motivation behind his research; and that if the community & Blizzard really were shallow enough to not pierce through the occasional bits of rhetorical flavor, they deserved their fate. But instead the mantra of the moderate was repeated: "I agree with your message, but not with your methods", i.e. the same thing repeated by every concern troll on the web seeking to distract from the actual point.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q3hcu3T.jpg)
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