Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST)
On January 21 2015 04:14 bLah. wrote: Difference is how San would've crushed Dark today if he moved out and attacked instead of taking 3rd. You're not watching games carefully if you really think that Dark is so much better in ZvP than San.
People make strategic errors all the time. You can watch literally any game and see stuff like this.
This is ridiculous. Wait for more evidence people. We have one accusation and no other information and we already have people proclaiming San's guilt.
Don't be Nancy Grace.
I'm not saying that was clear throw, I'm just saying that San had legit chance to win which means Dark isn't that much better than San.
Not even sure how Dark suddenly became ZvP bonjwa in peoples eyes lol when even SKT coaches say they're putting him in to kill terrans.
For the sake of protecting the Teams/players involved. Until there is further proof from in-game analysis or from the Teams/players and/or KeSPA, I really think this story should be removed from the spotlight. We as a community can not publish news like this based off of a betting sites "fraud detection" and risk major career damages to the players if in fact these accusations are false. Pinnaclesports has no right to determine a KeSPA Starcraft 2 match to be manipulated.
Also for people like Oliver Gill aka @SwoopAE who post tweets like
should have zero credit as a sc2 or esports enthusiast. I'm ashamed of anyone who slanders the players based off what looks to me as 100% false positive of a betting site that shouldn't deal with eSports betting. Fraud detection for eSports and Sports will need to be worked at in completely different ways. This site, does not.
Don't really post much in forums or anything really but this really steams me up the TeamLiquid of all places would put this on the front page based on literally zero proof at the risk of these players careers.
On January 21 2015 03:56 dsousa wrote: makes it even weirder because why would you fix a match to go the way that it was overwhelming favored to go? Why do all that risk for only a 20% gain, when you can do the same risk and bet on an underdog and get 500% gain. (at 5-1)
The premise that San fixed a match where he was a huge underdog doesn't make sense.
The heavy favorite won.
Only why was Dark such a huge favorite? 5-1 seems like insane odds for any proleague match.
Well underdog win would be suspicious, favorite win isn't. But Dark wasn't huge favorite. Why would he be? San crushed him 2 weeks ago. Dark was opened as moderate favorite but betting sites have odds that change based on how much you bet. For example: Dark opens at 1.7 odds which means if you put 1$ you get 1.7$ back. if someone puts 100$ on Dark odds would change to 1.6 -odds are changed but maxbet increases if someone puts 200$ on Dark odds change further to 1.5 -odds are change but maxbet increases if someone puts 1000$ on Dark odds change further to 1.4
Thing is, if you just put money on one player who is favorite you will destroy odds quickly unless other people join betting on other guy etc. That's what happened here. Other people realized that 3.0 odds on San are fuckin great and started putting bets, but the other side continued with throwing money on Dark even after it was terrible to bet on him statistically.
Considering how odds moved and how bit maxbet got it is safe to assume that thousand of dollars were put on Dark, number is probably even 5 figures.
So that's when obviously Pinnacle gets suspicious, because this wasn't match like others, it was fishy as fuck.
I place bets each day, plenty of bets, 100-1000$ bets on sc2, and just based on what's happening with odds this proleague season, it's fuckin fishy as fuck. Today I was lucky so i got my 200$ back, but this wouldn't be the first time this season that I take some odds that suddenly became extremely good just to see player brainfarting ingame and that's why I seriously doubt that Pinnacle jumped on first suspision, I wouldn't be surprised at all that something fucked up is going on in Korea atm.
Well there you go.
At first I was willing to think maybe it was just statistical aberration, but if daily betters are seeing this lately, I now think its more likely we have systematic corruption among teams/gamers.
On January 21 2015 03:36 ClueClueClue wrote: The only viable proof is actual transactions and chat logs imo. You can look at any game and point at both players' mistakes and say "he did that on purpose!". Because mistakes are made in heaps every day in the world of starcraft; nothing fishy about that necessarily, since that's how you lose any game, not just the ones you throw...
This is true. That said, Pinnacle isn't in the business of playing Referee for KeSPA, they're in the business of protecting their customers. If they have a strong, strong suspicion that the game was rigged, they do the "right" thing by making sure no one loses money on an unethical match.
It's not "protecting their customers" as long as they give no proof of matchfixing. They can just void bets for all games they lose money and explain that those results were "suspicious".
On January 21 2015 04:23 KiZoGe wrote: For the sake of protecting the Teams/players involved. Until there is further proof from in-game analysis or from the Teams/players and/or KeSPA, I really think this story should be removed from the spotlight. We as a community can not publish news like this based off of a betting sites "fraud detection" and risk major career damages to the players if in fact these accusations are false. Pinnaclesports has no right to determine a KeSPA Starcraft 2 match to be manipulated.
Also for people like Oliver Gill aka @SwoopAE who post tweets like https://twitter.com/SwoopAE/status/557533225975676929 should have zero credit as a sc2 or esports enthusiast. I'm ashamed of anyone who slanders the players based off what looks to me as 100% false positive of a betting site that shouldn't deal with eSports betting. Fraud detection for eSports and Sports will need to be worked at in completely different ways. This site, does not.
Don't really post much in forums or anything really but this really steams me up the TeamLiquid of all places would put this on the front page based on literally zero proof at the risk of these players careers.
If San is guilty, he's not the ring leader. If this happened... its not the first time and San isn't the only one involved.
If this happened, we need to look back in detail at recent games and find out who's in on this, and who's behind it.
This seems to me like this betting site it's trying to cover it's own ass. And this Oliver Gill guy is just slandering a player's name on twitter. I watched the game, and Dark was the favorite. No doubt. The betting site shouldn't void a bet because their in-house numbers look off.
On January 21 2015 04:23 KiZoGe wrote: For the sake of protecting the Teams/players involved. Until there is further proof from in-game analysis or from the Teams/players and/or KeSPA, I really think this story should be removed from the spotlight. We as a community can not publish news like this based off of a betting sites "fraud detection" and risk major career damages to the players if in fact these accusations are false. Pinnaclesports has no right to determine a KeSPA Starcraft 2 match to be manipulated.
Also for people like Oliver Gill aka @SwoopAE who post tweets like https://twitter.com/SwoopAE/status/557533225975676929 should have zero credit as a sc2 or esports enthusiast. I'm ashamed of anyone who slanders the players based off what looks to me as 100% false positive of a betting site that shouldn't deal with eSports betting. Fraud detection for eSports and Sports will need to be worked at in completely different ways. This site, does not.
Don't really post much in forums or anything really but this really steams me up the TeamLiquid of all places would put this on the front page based on literally zero proof at the risk of these players careers.
If San is guilty, he's not the ring leader. If this happened... its not the first time and San isn't the only one involved.
If this happened, we need to look back in detail at recent games and find out who's in on this, and who's behind it.
No "we" don't. "we" are not people that can judge if some shit happened.
On January 21 2015 04:28 Naikonz wrote: This seems to me like this betting site it's trying to cover it's own ass. And this Oliver Gill guy is just slandering a player's name on twitter. I watched the game, and Dark was the favorite. No doubt. The betting site shouldn't void a bet because their in-house numbers look off.
this is the much much MUCH more likely explanation.
it's pretty funny how half of you here didn't even know sc2 betting is a thing until today and now you're saying it isn't suspiciuous when suddenly thousands of dollars are placed on 1 game specifically. You guys are forgetting that by betting on just 1 game player can theoretically earn more money than in a whole year from sc2 earnings. Just let that sink in for a bit.
People ARE throwing games, it's a fact and there's been plenty of examples in cs:go, dota etc (ffs in dota teams that went to The International fixed matches just 3-4 months after it). Is San among them? Who knows, could be he's innocent, it would be fair to presume his innocence for now, but you're being damn naive if you think such a huge betting site as Pinnacle would stir this kind of shitstorm just for lulz. You're forgetting that they lose customer confidence either way, this is lose-lose for them.
On January 21 2015 04:23 KiZoGe wrote: For the sake of protecting the Teams/players involved. Until there is further proof from in-game analysis or from the Teams/players and/or KeSPA, I really think this story should be removed from the spotlight. We as a community can not publish news like this based off of a betting sites "fraud detection" and risk major career damages to the players if in fact these accusations are false. Pinnaclesports has no right to determine a KeSPA Starcraft 2 match to be manipulated.
Also for people like Oliver Gill aka @SwoopAE who post tweets like https://twitter.com/SwoopAE/status/557533225975676929 should have zero credit as a sc2 or esports enthusiast. I'm ashamed of anyone who slanders the players based off what looks to me as 100% false positive of a betting site that shouldn't deal with eSports betting. Fraud detection for eSports and Sports will need to be worked at in completely different ways. This site, does not.
Don't really post much in forums or anything really but this really steams me up the TeamLiquid of all places would put this on the front page based on literally zero proof at the risk of these players careers.
The voiding of the bets is news though. I don't see how it wouldn't be?
I personally think people should be more careful to accuse San and Dark of any sort of fixing though.
I really don't think there is enough to merit a discussion of match fixing with one game being voided because of some in house stats.
On January 21 2015 04:23 KiZoGe wrote: For the sake of protecting the Teams/players involved. Until there is further proof from in-game analysis or from the Teams/players and/or KeSPA, I really think this story should be removed from the spotlight. We as a community can not publish news like this based off of a betting sites "fraud detection" and risk major career damages to the players if in fact these accusations are false. Pinnaclesports has no right to determine a KeSPA Starcraft 2 match to be manipulated.
Also for people like Oliver Gill aka @SwoopAE who post tweets like https://twitter.com/SwoopAE/status/557533225975676929 should have zero credit as a sc2 or esports enthusiast. I'm ashamed of anyone who slanders the players based off what looks to me as 100% false positive of a betting site that shouldn't deal with eSports betting. Fraud detection for eSports and Sports will need to be worked at in completely different ways. This site, does not.
Don't really post much in forums or anything really but this really steams me up the TeamLiquid of all places would put this on the front page based on literally zero proof at the risk of these players careers.
The voiding of the bets is news though. I don't see how it wouldn't be?
I personally think people should be more careful to accuse San and Dark of any sort of fixing though.
I really don't think there is enough to merit a discussion of match fixing with one game being voided because of some in house stats.
On January 21 2015 04:14 bLah. wrote: Difference is how San would've crushed Dark today if he moved out and attacked instead of taking 3rd. You're not watching games carefully if you really think that Dark is so much better in ZvP than San.
People make strategic errors all the time. You can watch literally any game and see stuff like this.
This is ridiculous. Wait for more evidence people. We have one accusation and no other information and we already have people proclaiming San's guilt.
Don't be Nancy Grace.
I'm not saying that was clear throw, I'm just saying that San had legit chance to win which means Dark isn't that much better than San.
Not even sure how Dark suddenly became ZvP bonjwa in peoples eyes lol when even SKT coaches say they're putting him in to kill terrans.
Dark is doing great in general recently. He recently beat Rain and Dear too. I think that he deserved to be the favorite against San, although not 5:1 obviously.
Well regardless of what happens San's reputation is ruined. 5 figures isnt even a lot of money. I would have been comfortable betting 6 figures+ that dark would win a bo1 vs san on foxtrot. San's stats are inflated, dark has improved more than any other player IMO, and foxtrot is a tricky map. Honestly I hope there is more evidence not released yet or this is a joke.
Pinnacle is a very big, well known betting side. They lose money when they return the betting money. They have experience with matchfixing for since they exist and every pro better knows what fixing evidents are. And there evidence: Hugh change of the rate while you can bet. Far more money then all other compared bets. San crushed Dark 2 weeks ago, now he playes like being infused with noobishm.
Just because some strange poker/better guy from the other part of the world accuses this, it must not be wrong. Pro betters know best about manipulated bets and the evidences. He might talk shit, but no betting side (and not such a large one) would do such a move without evidence. We should wait for some more time, but in the entire time of SC II and SC II Proleague, there will have been alot of fixed matches. You know how much people earn in Esport, even the top contenders dont become super rich of it, earning something on hand via fixing isnt unlikely. Its just like the chinese corruption.
EPT
