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On November 10 2014 06:11 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:08 Plexa wrote:On November 10 2014 02:39 Falling wrote:
Haha. Well one thing is for sure, and that is the 1500 to 1000 mineral change is NOT designed for casual play. The casuals, who I convince to play BW lans on occasion, typically hate having mining bases run out. I've found a compromise where I modify all the starting mains to have tons of minerals, but all the other expansions have a normal amount (And gas is always normal.) Dropping minerals down to 1000 puts the casual on a very uncomfortable time clock. This is actually a good point. Needing to expand was one of the reasons that money maps were a big success in BW (i.e. you didn't need to expand) Yeah the need to expand is not the same thing as the incentive to expand. If every race needs badly to expand, it's just the same on a different economy rate. Expanding should be rewarded, not needed.
I wouldn't be so quick to call it the "same" without having tested the change yet. Really not much can be said before we test the change. It will change build orders and perhaps strategies. It may require more multi-tasking skills (keep in mind anyone below master basically can't macro 3 bases while doing things on the map with their army).
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Very detailed and well thought out thread.
On the economic efficiency note: Couldn't they do something as simple as making workers take ~twice as long to mine, but bring back 10 minerals instead of 5?
The economy would retain the same overall income, but you would lose some efficiency with 2 workers per patch. Going beyond 2 workers/patch would likely not affect income at all.
That said, unless they changed the mineral patch count, you won't get any substantial changes to the economic pattern, because 16 workers per base is already the standard, and they would have to make drastic changes to change that without changing the number of patches per base...
They could just make every base effectively a gold base with 5 patches at ~2000 minerals per patch, but that might make the initial build up too fast, though I guess they would be fine with that considering the current plan of economic changes.
With 5 gold patches, maximum worker efficiency would be 10 to retain the current income.
Or they could just use 6 blue patches per base to limit the income per base, as that would make 4 bases equivalent to what 3 bases are currently. They might need to make Vespene gas come in 3 at a time instead of 4 to retain the same ratio. This would cap efficiency at 12 workers per base, incentivizing expanding past 3 bases for the ideal economy, and reducing full saturation to 18 workers. (In BW, max mining efficiency was ~12, 2 for each far patch and 1 per close patch, though there were only 3 on gas.)
The main problem with this, other than the comparative Vespene income being higher, is that the comparative income given by mules over additional workers becomes higher.
Additionally, Zerg having a cheaper base structure gives them an advantage in the ability to expand throughout the game.
If a change such as this goes through, they would probably need to re-tune the costs of the primary base structures, possible setting Nexuses and CCs at 300minerals (Orbital/PF upgrade costs would not remain the same), and hatcheries at 250. With 3/4 the income, having base structures cost comparatively lower than the current cost would be fair, as it would reduce the initial penalty for taking additional expansions.
If they kept the 12 worker start, this would mean you start with maximum 1 base mineral efficiency.
I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of overhaul to the macro mechanics as well, but I doubt they will consider that...
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Canada181 Posts
On November 10 2014 02:39 Falling wrote:
Haha. Well one thing is for sure, and that is the 1500 to 1000 mineral change is NOT designed for casual play. The casuals, who I convince to play BW lans on occasion, typically hate having mining bases run out. I've found a compromise where I modify all the starting mains to have tons of minerals, but all the other expansions have a normal amount (And gas is always normal.) Dropping minerals down to 1000 puts the casual on a very uncomfortable time clock.
That's a pretty good point. To keep the game entertaining to casuals, I think we should actually promote the custom mods that are possible for each map. Things like Big Game Hunters mod with a ton of mineral/gas per base and many more mods are possible in SC2 Customs. There should be no shame substituting modded maps over Blizzard maps for the casual player, as they can be extremely fun and worthwhile. Those custom game mods are often overlooked in light of the Arcade, in fact, many people don't even know about them, but they are extremely fun as you can apply them to any melee map.
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On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below.
Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
I suspect that Archon Mode is probably the reason they went with a 12 worker start. I used to play a fair bit of Macro Micro and the beginning was always extremely dull with one player having nothing to do.
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On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl.
It is not a bug, that's how LotV is.
As a little trivia i had to remove and re-upload the mod because i hand't realized that Zerg did not start with an overlord until another mapmaker pointed it out :o
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On November 10 2014 08:49 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl. It is not a bug, that's how LotV is. As a little trivia i had to remove and re-upload the mod because i hand't realized that Zerg did not start with an overlord until another mapmaker pointed it out :o
awesome, never mind then!
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I agree with the posts talking about giving players incentives vs giving them requirements. I'd much rather hear "He's going for it! Do you think he can pull this off?" vs "He's way behind! He needs to get going!"
The former adds suspense and excitement, the later is just a timed race which is rather boring in a strategy game.
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On November 10 2014 06:25 Orzabal wrote:
Each mule should cost one supply so you cant call down 10 mule at a time.
I'd like to see mules being on cooldown instead, that way you would not have "mule hammer" on new expand, the best players won't miss the timing while lesser player will not keep up, as Queen inject, so basically it increases the skill gap, and terran player would get much more scan available.
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Canada11355 Posts
On November 10 2014 08:49 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl. It is not a bug, that's how LotV is. As a little trivia i had to remove and re-upload the mod because i hand't realized that Zerg did not start with an overlord until another mapmaker pointed it out :o
Hatches give 14 supply? so for 300 minerals i can make a universal production facility that provides almost 2 overlords worth of supply?
I assume this will be changed at some point?
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Canada11381 Posts
On November 10 2014 08:49 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl. It is not a bug, that's how LotV is. As a little trivia i had to remove and re-upload the mod because i hand't realized that Zerg did not start with an overlord until another mapmaker pointed it out :o
Really? So do all Zerg Hatcheries bump up the available supply by 14? That's a pretty significant change.
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On November 10 2014 10:38 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 08:49 Uvantak wrote:On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl. It is not a bug, that's how LotV is. As a little trivia i had to remove and re-upload the mod because i hand't realized that Zerg did not start with an overlord until another mapmaker pointed it out :o Really? So do all Zerg Hatcheries bump up the available supply by 14? That's a pretty significant change.
It sounds like the first step to making it cost 400... 
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On November 10 2014 10:38 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 08:49 Uvantak wrote:On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl. It is not a bug, that's how LotV is. As a little trivia i had to remove and re-upload the mod because i hand't realized that Zerg did not start with an overlord until another mapmaker pointed it out :o Really? So do all Zerg Hatcheries bump up the available supply by 14? That's a pretty significant change.
that's how it works in the mod, you get 1 ovie and then you're at like x/36 with an FE
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On November 10 2014 08:49 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl. It is not a bug, that's how LotV is.
Wasn't it that hatches give 6 supply + 1 starting overlord to get to the initial 14?
Pretty sure I saw mentions of LotV hatches giving 'only' 6 supply.
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On November 10 2014 11:22 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2014 08:49 Uvantak wrote:On November 10 2014 08:34 Endymion wrote:On November 10 2014 06:01 Uvantak wrote:Because as a mapmaker i'm highly interested on the economic systems of StarCraft, i took a little time on working some extension mods out for you guys to try out, i have worked out the economic system of LotV from the information we got from David Kim's talk, and the BW economy system from the Starbow mod which is currently in use. As it stands now, the SCBW system on my mod still needs more work to make the workers bounce more, if anyone wants to try out the full thing it is free to play the Starbow mod, i will keep working to find what's the parameter i need to modify to make the workers bounce more. Both mods can be found as extension mods in the Custom games section, and can also be downloaded for anyone else that may want to use them for their own investigations. I highly recommend trying them out, and comparing them, even if the SCBW one is still WiP. I'll be ready to fix any bug, issue or feedback regarding the mods, just PM me or answer below. Idk if this is a bug or what, but hatches give 14 supply and you don't start with an ovie as zerg. other than that, super interesting, thanks! I'll be playing around with this, if anyone wants to 1v1 with this mod PM me on tl. It is not a bug, that's how LotV is. Wasn't it that hatches give 6 supply + 1 starting overlord to get to the initial 14? Pretty sure I saw mentions of LotV hatches giving 'only' 6 supply.
Check the showmatches, i thought the same thing at the start, but Zerg starts without an overlord and at 14 supply.
//EDIT: Nonononono DAMN IT IEZAELLLLLLLL!!!!!!!.........................
Zergs DO Start with an overlord! So it is in the same way i had it at the start, 6 supply hatches+ovie, I'll have it fixed in 3 min.
//EDIT2: Changes are done, Mod is updated, Hatcheries now have 6 initial supply + 8 supply given by an initial overlord.
Damn it Iez >.<
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It really wouldn't have made any sense otherwise tbh^^
No overlord to scout with? Hatches with one million supply? WTF :D
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From playing the economy mod it seems to work like bw in that it just makes them mine less efficiently though the efficiency doesn't downscale quite as quickly as in bw.
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I wish someone would have asked DK why they didnt just steal the starbow eco instead of this weird solution. Starting with 12workers is one thing, adding the lower mineral count makes it a whole different type of derp.
EDIT:It's not like the shortcomings of SC2 econ hasnt been discussed and experimented on before.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3f3dF5Z.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o2IDknw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NTmryCH.jpg)
