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On November 18 2014 00:20 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On November 17 2014 12:49 BronzeKnee wrote:
I think the biggest thing to add is that Terran being able to lift CC's is going to be a massive advantage since the bases mine out so quickly.
Terran can take two bases, and just stick with two CC's while denying the ability of the other race to expand, and just run them out of minerals 33% faster. I'm really not sure how Protoss is going to take a third. I think Protoss is just fucked in the current version of LotV. They will have to make quite big defensive compensations for the massive warpgate nerf due to defensive issues coming up whether they change the eco or not. E.g. just think of all the zealot warp ins against zerglings, of all the zealot warp ins against drops, the stalker warp ins against mutalisks... Not to mention the photon overcharge nerf. You do understand that what was seen on Blizzcon will be radically different to what the full game will have? Just like with HotS. Or even WoL. WoL had an ability to build multiple Motherships that had a Air to Ground AoE mass damage cannon.
Yup. One might say that was my entire point with that comment, eco change or not.
If they go through with the economy change, the game will need some serious rebalancing. What I fear is that they will only balance the races, not diverse playstyles, not diverse maps, not fun unit interactions. Only races and their matchups because after overhauling everything and rather introducing concepts of units instead of fun and diverse gameplay they will have to aim for a minimum goal for the game once again in beta. With the chaotic untested things they currently aim for, there won't be much time left to improve the game beyond basic balancing.
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It's a very stupid change.
Take zvz for instance. Is there any use to 12 pool if there's no earlier pool possible? It doesn't do enough damage against hatch first, so everyone is just going to hatch first. With everyone going hatch first, 12 pool will simply become the new 9 pool, hatch first the new pool first and 2 hatch before pool the new 15 hatch.
Same thing with other match ups.
So it's not gonna do anything to help skip the "boring" part of the game, the meta will simply shift in favor of people powering harder before anything happens, effectively we're just nerfing anything that doesn't expand immediately to soon.
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On November 18 2014 00:33 Kiarip wrote:
It's a very stupid change.
Take zvz for instance. Is there any use to 12 pool if there's no earlier pool possible? It doesn't do enough damage against hatch first, so everyone is just going to hatch first. With everyone going hatch first, 12 pool will simply become the new 9 pool, hatch first the new pool first and 2 hatch before pool the new 15 hatch.
Same thing with other match ups.
Then you don't understand ZvZ. You can't go double hatch before pool against hatch first either. It has nothing to do with blind luck based rushes, but with the fact that the moment your opponent scouts you going double hatch before pool he just laughs, builds double queens, outproduces you and shits all over your spread out locations with reactive zergling speed.
Also play the testmap. Zerg starts with 12/14supply, so a 12pool still could hit very hard against an opponent that builds an Overlord, 3-5drones and a hatchery more than you before a spawning pool. Also 12gas/11pool banelings or speedlings or something like that could be a thing.
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On November 18 2014 00:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 00:33 Kiarip wrote:
It's a very stupid change.
Take zvz for instance. Is there any use to 12 pool if there's no earlier pool possible? It doesn't do enough damage against hatch first, so everyone is just going to hatch first. With everyone going hatch first, 12 pool will simply become the new 9 pool, hatch first the new pool first and 2 hatch before pool the new 15 hatch.
Same thing with other match ups. Then you don't understand ZvZ. You can't go double hatch before pool against hatch first either. It has nothing to do with blind luck based rushes, but with the fact that the moment your opponent scouts you going double hatch before pool he just laughs, builds double queens, outproduces you and shits all over your spread out locations with reactive zergling speed. Also play the testmap. Zerg starts with 12/14supply, so a 12pool still could hit very hard against an opponent that builds an Overlord, 3-5drones and a hatchery more than you before a spawning pool. Also 12gas/11pool banelings or speedlings or something like that could be a thing.
Yes you can. You can get a third hatch if you opponents goes 15hatch/15 pool.
and defend whatever he attacks you with. The question is of course is the extra hatch actually worth 300 minerals since it obviously can't be at your third.
edit: I do agree that a 12 pool before overlord can still be "scary" but it will get crushed a pool after an overlord and 2 drones. Just like 9 pool loses to 12 pool now.
And my overall point still stands, if you remove the early threats that aren't immediately scoutable it is a direct buff to greedy builds, which in turn will spawn even greedier builds.
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On November 18 2014 00:46 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 00:38 Big J wrote:On November 18 2014 00:33 Kiarip wrote:
It's a very stupid change.
Take zvz for instance. Is there any use to 12 pool if there's no earlier pool possible? It doesn't do enough damage against hatch first, so everyone is just going to hatch first. With everyone going hatch first, 12 pool will simply become the new 9 pool, hatch first the new pool first and 2 hatch before pool the new 15 hatch.
Same thing with other match ups. Then you don't understand ZvZ. You can't go double hatch before pool against hatch first either. It has nothing to do with blind luck based rushes, but with the fact that the moment your opponent scouts you going double hatch before pool he just laughs, builds double queens, outproduces you and shits all over your spread out locations with reactive zergling speed. Also play the testmap. Zerg starts with 12/14supply, so a 12pool still could hit very hard against an opponent that builds an Overlord, 3-5drones and a hatchery more than you before a spawning pool. Also 12gas/11pool banelings or speedlings or something like that could be a thing. Yes you can. You can get a third hatch if you opponents goes 15hatch/15 pool. and defend whatever anything attacks you with. The question of course is the extra hatch actually worth 300 minerals since it obviously cna't be at your third.
Yeah indoor hatch... TLO played with that the moment he switched from Terran to Zerg, thinking he'd outsmart every Zerg. Didn't take him long to conclude it wasn't played by anybody else for good reasons.
And my overall point still stands, if you remove the early threats that aren't immediately scoutable it is a direct buff to greedy builds, which in turn will spawn even greedier builds.
Not really. There are just standard builds (e.g. reaper TvZ, multiple TvT builds, hatch/gas/pool ZvZ) that are very scoutable and limit greed anyways, regardless of whether 2rax/10pool are viable. It's just about designing the game that such aggressive (and btw fun to watch) early game builds are viable, then you can drop each and every coinflip build from the game and you will still not get just greed vs more greed.
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On November 18 2014 00:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 00:46 Kiarip wrote:On November 18 2014 00:38 Big J wrote:On November 18 2014 00:33 Kiarip wrote:
It's a very stupid change.
Take zvz for instance. Is there any use to 12 pool if there's no earlier pool possible? It doesn't do enough damage against hatch first, so everyone is just going to hatch first. With everyone going hatch first, 12 pool will simply become the new 9 pool, hatch first the new pool first and 2 hatch before pool the new 15 hatch.
Same thing with other match ups. Then you don't understand ZvZ. You can't go double hatch before pool against hatch first either. It has nothing to do with blind luck based rushes, but with the fact that the moment your opponent scouts you going double hatch before pool he just laughs, builds double queens, outproduces you and shits all over your spread out locations with reactive zergling speed. Also play the testmap. Zerg starts with 12/14supply, so a 12pool still could hit very hard against an opponent that builds an Overlord, 3-5drones and a hatchery more than you before a spawning pool. Also 12gas/11pool banelings or speedlings or something like that could be a thing. Yes you can. You can get a third hatch if you opponents goes 15hatch/15 pool. and defend whatever anything attacks you with. The question of course is the extra hatch actually worth 300 minerals since it obviously cna't be at your third. Yeah indoor hatch... TLO played with that the moment he switched from Terran to Zerg, thinking he'd outsmart every Zerg. Didn't take him long to conclude it wasn't played by anybody else for good reasons.
well you can still take forever to get your pool.
You can do something obscene like 15 hatch 17 overlord 17 pool. The only saving grace here is that zerg DOES want to get a queen sooner than later. Otherwise you'd go into full BW mode.
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On November 18 2014 00:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 00:46 Kiarip wrote:On November 18 2014 00:38 Big J wrote:On November 18 2014 00:33 Kiarip wrote:
It's a very stupid change.
Take zvz for instance. Is there any use to 12 pool if there's no earlier pool possible? It doesn't do enough damage against hatch first, so everyone is just going to hatch first. With everyone going hatch first, 12 pool will simply become the new 9 pool, hatch first the new pool first and 2 hatch before pool the new 15 hatch.
Same thing with other match ups. Then you don't understand ZvZ. You can't go double hatch before pool against hatch first either. It has nothing to do with blind luck based rushes, but with the fact that the moment your opponent scouts you going double hatch before pool he just laughs, builds double queens, outproduces you and shits all over your spread out locations with reactive zergling speed. Also play the testmap. Zerg starts with 12/14supply, so a 12pool still could hit very hard against an opponent that builds an Overlord, 3-5drones and a hatchery more than you before a spawning pool. Also 12gas/11pool banelings or speedlings or something like that could be a thing. Yes you can. You can get a third hatch if you opponents goes 15hatch/15 pool. and defend whatever anything attacks you with. The question of course is the extra hatch actually worth 300 minerals since it obviously cna't be at your third. Yeah indoor hatch... TLO played with that the moment he switched from Terran to Zerg, thinking he'd outsmart every Zerg. Didn't take him long to conclude it wasn't played by anybody else for good reasons. Show nested quote +And my overall point still stands, if you remove the early threats that aren't immediately scoutable it is a direct buff to greedy builds, which in turn will spawn even greedier builds. Not really. There are just standard builds (e.g. reaper TvZ, multiple TvT builds, hatch/gas/pool ZvZ) that are very scoutable and limit greed anyways, regardless of whether 2rax/10pool are viable. It's just about designing the game that such aggressive (and btw fun to watch) early game builds are viable, then you can drop each and every coinflip build from the game and you will still not get just greed vs more greed.
Well going for a reaper build would be considerably "later" than it is currently if you still need to build a depot before you start your barracks.
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On November 18 2014 00:58 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 00:50 Big J wrote:On November 18 2014 00:46 Kiarip wrote:On November 18 2014 00:38 Big J wrote:On November 18 2014 00:33 Kiarip wrote:
It's a very stupid change.
Take zvz for instance. Is there any use to 12 pool if there's no earlier pool possible? It doesn't do enough damage against hatch first, so everyone is just going to hatch first. With everyone going hatch first, 12 pool will simply become the new 9 pool, hatch first the new pool first and 2 hatch before pool the new 15 hatch.
Same thing with other match ups. Then you don't understand ZvZ. You can't go double hatch before pool against hatch first either. It has nothing to do with blind luck based rushes, but with the fact that the moment your opponent scouts you going double hatch before pool he just laughs, builds double queens, outproduces you and shits all over your spread out locations with reactive zergling speed. Also play the testmap. Zerg starts with 12/14supply, so a 12pool still could hit very hard against an opponent that builds an Overlord, 3-5drones and a hatchery more than you before a spawning pool. Also 12gas/11pool banelings or speedlings or something like that could be a thing. Yes you can. You can get a third hatch if you opponents goes 15hatch/15 pool. and defend whatever anything attacks you with. The question of course is the extra hatch actually worth 300 minerals since it obviously cna't be at your third. Yeah indoor hatch... TLO played with that the moment he switched from Terran to Zerg, thinking he'd outsmart every Zerg. Didn't take him long to conclude it wasn't played by anybody else for good reasons. And my overall point still stands, if you remove the early threats that aren't immediately scoutable it is a direct buff to greedy builds, which in turn will spawn even greedier builds. Not really. There are just standard builds (e.g. reaper TvZ, multiple TvT builds, hatch/gas/pool ZvZ) that are very scoutable and limit greed anyways, regardless of whether 2rax/10pool are viable. It's just about designing the game that such aggressive (and btw fun to watch) early game builds are viable, then you can drop each and every coinflip build from the game and you will still not get just greed vs more greed. Well going for a reaper build would be considerably "later" than it is currently if you still need to build a depot before you start your barracks.
yup, which is what I have been critizising about the change a lot.
I'm not trying to "prove it is bad". I like the idea (of starting with 12workers) a lot, but the implementation is bad.
But if they did things like:
- supply depot requirement for barracks removed
- Nexus grants power radius
- Spawning Pool Build Time reduced
- start money to 100 or 150minerals
with this that could work out quite well. Without such additional tweaks their idea just doesn't work out.
But note, given changes that allow you to go for a standard 12barracks/gate, going to 12workers from the start would still allow you to send out your scout at the same time your opponent sends out 1-2workers for a proxy.
While currently sending a worker between 6-9supply leads to quite a big disadvantage against a macro build. So I think if you synchronized the tech to the current speed, you'd only really nerf proxies and builds that begin before 10supply, but not standard aggression builds.
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Two gas geyser system. Do they serve any strategical purpose?
Blizzard started experimenting with two gas geysers in 2008. The reasoning: harvesting gas was going to be turned into a macro mechanic. Gas geysers would only start with 600 gas and then shut down for a while. The player had to buy additional gas with minerals.
Blizzard's entire reasoning quoted below:
Chat with Devs: Since the Worldwide Invitational in Paris, the topic of the new Vespene Gas mechanic has come up a lot across many different fansites and message boards. Thus far, this is one of the biggest changes which will affect the macro management of bases in StarCraft II. To shed some more light on this new mechanic, I have gotten a chance to talk to Dustin Browder, our Lead Designer for StarCraft II, about the progress thus far of the new mechanic, as well as the objectives this new mechanic is designed to achieve.
To start, the new Vespene Gas mechanic is to further distinguish the play style in which players gather minerals versus gathering gas. In the original StarCraft, the gathering of gas was very linear in the rate in which gas is gathered. Often, players would put 3-4 workers on the gas, and the players would forget about it until the geyser was depleted. Minerals on the other hand, were much more exponential in the rate of growth and were also often played differently amongst different races. Zerg would likely expand rapidly with less drones in each expansion and Protoss/Terran could sustain a sizeable force with higher numbers of workers on a smaller number of expansions.
How the New Vespene Gas Mechanic Works
For StarCraft II, with the new Vespene Gas mechanic, players will have 2 gas geysers at their starting position. These geysers will start with X amount of gas (currently 600 and subject to balance) and at any time players can purchase additional gas in their geysers for X minerals (currently 100 and subject to balance). With each purchase of additional gas for your geyser, the geyser increases with X gas (currently 600 and subject to balance) and the geyser shuts down for 45 seconds. When a geyser is depleted, workers will still be able to gather gas at a low rate of 2 per round (subject to balance).
How the New Vespene Gas Mechanic Plays
With this new gas mechanic, players have a wider variety of strategies in developing and maintaining their refineries, as well as additional attention needed to make sure they are collecting gas at the most efficient rate. On the production side, players now also have to decide between sticking to Tier 1 units longer, or to play it balanced with one geyser, or even max out on gas to invest heavily on teching and higher tech units. Additional, the relationship between minerals and gas have an added layer of depth since investing in additional gas will actually cost the player minerals as well. How often a player invests in gas will also not necessarily be consistent through the game too and will depend upon what units that player is currently choosing to mass. Scouting too has an added layer of depth as well, as a players gas collecting play style may determine if the player is teching to a higher tier mineral heavy unit (like a Dark Templar) or a higher tech gas heavy unit (like a High Templar).
Overall, players will have to build the appropriate buildings as well as gather resources in a particular method in order to execute a certain strategy at a professional level. It is the hope of the development team that this new mechanic will not only make gas collecting more interesting, but also increase the amount of macro management skill needed to compete in StarCraft II at the top levels while at the same time making the game playable for mid level players without using some of these more advanced techniques.
None of these mechanics ended up making it in the game. But two gas geysers remained as a remnant of these experiments Blizzard's conducted in 2008.
If we evaluate two gas geysers versus one gas geyser:
- Does the two gas geyser system offer any sort of significant strategical diversity-of-choice-benefit which could not have been similarly achieved by adjusting worker counts on merely one geyser?
- Are two gas geysers just a remnant from WoL alpha experiments?
- "Often, players would put 3-4 workers on the gas, and the players would forget about it until the geyser was depleted." Is this behavior significantly different with two gas geysers? Adjusting worker counts and or how many geysers you take only happens with any sort of frequency in the early game, both in SC2 and in BW.
- "Additional, the relationship between minerals and gas have an added layer of depth since investing in additional gas will actually cost the player minerals as well." You do no longer purchase gas with minerals. But some would argue you sacrifice mineral income in SC2 by having lots of active gas geysers.
The two gas geyser system did on some level achieve "a sacrifice" of mineral income. But I don't think it added considerably to strategic depth. Workers are still put in geysers and forgotten about.
Two gas geysers. Do they add any real depth which could not be had with one geyser?
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If someone snipes your 1 gas geyser, it shuts down gas at that base. If someone snipes 1 of your 2 gas geyser, it shuts down half the gas income at the base.
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I also found this part of the statement Blizzard made in 2008 interesting:
Minerals on the other hand, were much more exponential in the rate of growth and were also often played differently amongst different races. Zerg would likely expand rapidly with less drones in each expansion and Protoss/Terran could sustain a sizeable force with higher numbers of workers on a smaller number of expansions.
Blizzard indirectly imply in 2008 that BW economy system achieves same effect as LotV system by the way of naturally incentivizing expanding.
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On November 17 2014 23:42 Daeracon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2014 12:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:
-Sets precedence for non-standard mineral layout for maps
-Sets precedence for non-standard mineral count per mineral patch Show nested quote +These have always been Blizzard restrictions. Map makers have spent years experimenting with these concepts, only to have Blizzard modify them to fit their standard economic model for the ladder editions (LE). The original versions of maps like Daybreak and Bel'Shir Vestige had 6m1g style bases (Daybreak's was transformed to 8m2g while Bel'Shir Vestige had its base removed). We've also had maps with a mixture 6 normal minerals and 2 high-yield minerals used, but never picked up by Blizzard.
LotV's economy changes set no precedence whatsoever in this area. Furthermore, I suspect that Blizzard will continue its policy of enforcing their economic model on ladder maps, which still means no creative deviation for the average player. Really? They were 6m1g? It is very frustrating that Blizzard does not want to experiment with this on the ladder. I am still very much hoping that some tournament goes a bit rogue and experiment with this. TSL5!!! With only these kinds of maps! Fix it Nazgul!
If you watch the MVP vs. TOP game I linked in that post, you'll notice the middle bases on Daybreak are only 6m1g. I'm sure if you play Daybreak LE on the ladder right now you'll notice that same base being 8m2g.
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For the current economy the two gas system makes a lot of sense, because single bases require lots of workers and give a lot of income.
-) Only having needing 3/21 workers on gas for the same gas income would incredibly mess up the efficiency of gas/mineral mining early on. It's also an extra investment cost early on, which helps a little with the fast supply build up.
-) In many builds you don't want full income on gas, and taking only one geyser of a base makes for additional strategic depth of the otherwise quite flat economy system.
I don't think blizzard never re-evaluated the 2gas after they dropped the mentioned geyser changes. 2gas in a 24worker economy makes much more sense than only one to me.
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I definitely like the 2 gas for main base, for the expansions, I'm not sure.
I'd love to just see how it works out, with our current system in the main bases and each expansion having 6 mineral patches and 1 gas geyser instead.
Golds could have 4 patches if it's an easily defended one and 5 patches if it's a "u need map control to take this base."
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I've always thought two workers should be full saturation for one geyser though. Six workers to mine gas is so much. (I don't care too much though)
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 18 2014 01:30 LaLuSh wrote:Two gas geyser system. Do they serve any strategical purpose?Blizzard started experimenting with two gas geysers in 2008. The reasoning: harvesting gas was going to be turned into a macro mechanic. Gas geysers would only start with 600 gas and then shut down for a while. The player had to buy additional gas with minerals. Blizzard's entire reasoning quoted below: Show nested quote +Chat with Devs: Since the Worldwide Invitational in Paris, the topic of the new Vespene Gas mechanic has come up a lot across many different fansites and message boards. Thus far, this is one of the biggest changes which will affect the macro management of bases in StarCraft II. To shed some more light on this new mechanic, I have gotten a chance to talk to Dustin Browder, our Lead Designer for StarCraft II, about the progress thus far of the new mechanic, as well as the objectives this new mechanic is designed to achieve.
To start, the new Vespene Gas mechanic is to further distinguish the play style in which players gather minerals versus gathering gas. In the original StarCraft, the gathering of gas was very linear in the rate in which gas is gathered. Often, players would put 3-4 workers on the gas, and the players would forget about it until the geyser was depleted. Minerals on the other hand, were much more exponential in the rate of growth and were also often played differently amongst different races. Zerg would likely expand rapidly with less drones in each expansion and Protoss/Terran could sustain a sizeable force with higher numbers of workers on a smaller number of expansions.
How the New Vespene Gas Mechanic Works
For StarCraft II, with the new Vespene Gas mechanic, players will have 2 gas geysers at their starting position. These geysers will start with X amount of gas (currently 600 and subject to balance) and at any time players can purchase additional gas in their geysers for X minerals (currently 100 and subject to balance). With each purchase of additional gas for your geyser, the geyser increases with X gas (currently 600 and subject to balance) and the geyser shuts down for 45 seconds. When a geyser is depleted, workers will still be able to gather gas at a low rate of 2 per round (subject to balance).
How the New Vespene Gas Mechanic Plays
With this new gas mechanic, players have a wider variety of strategies in developing and maintaining their refineries, as well as additional attention needed to make sure they are collecting gas at the most efficient rate. On the production side, players now also have to decide between sticking to Tier 1 units longer, or to play it balanced with one geyser, or even max out on gas to invest heavily on teching and higher tech units. Additional, the relationship between minerals and gas have an added layer of depth since investing in additional gas will actually cost the player minerals as well. How often a player invests in gas will also not necessarily be consistent through the game too and will depend upon what units that player is currently choosing to mass. Scouting too has an added layer of depth as well, as a players gas collecting play style may determine if the player is teching to a higher tier mineral heavy unit (like a Dark Templar) or a higher tech gas heavy unit (like a High Templar).
Overall, players will have to build the appropriate buildings as well as gather resources in a particular method in order to execute a certain strategy at a professional level. It is the hope of the development team that this new mechanic will not only make gas collecting more interesting, but also increase the amount of macro management skill needed to compete in StarCraft II at the top levels while at the same time making the game playable for mid level players without using some of these more advanced techniques. None of these mechanics ended up making it in the game. But two gas geysers remained as a remnant of these experiments Blizzard's conducted in 2008. If we evaluate two gas geysers versus one gas geyser: - Does the two gas geyser system offer any sort of significant strategical diversity-of-choice-benefit which could not have been similarly achieved by adjusting worker counts on merely one geyser?
- Are two gas geysers just a remnant from WoL alpha experiments?
- "Often, players would put 3-4 workers on the gas, and the players would forget about it until the geyser was depleted." Is this behavior significantly different with two gas geysers? Adjusting worker counts and or how many geysers you take only happens with any sort of frequency in the early game, both in SC2 and in BW.
- "Additional, the relationship between minerals and gas have an added layer of depth since investing in additional gas will actually cost the player minerals as well." You do no longer purchase gas with minerals. But some would argue you sacrifice mineral income in SC2 by having lots of active gas geysers.
The two gas geyser system did on some level achieve "a sacrifice" of mineral income. But I don't think it added considerably to strategic depth. Workers are still put in geysers and forgotten about. Two gas geysers. Do they add any real depth which could not be had with one geyser?
Interesting post. PL did one or two maps with rich vespene geysers instead but these soon fell out of favour as many non-standard maps. Their reasoning was that in sc2, when compared to BW, people built more workers and so armies were smaller. There doesn't seem to be a good reason for why we would want more workers in general, so it could just perhaps be possible to change to one gas even while letting mining rates remain the same (or change it in some other way that could be either symmetrical with current sc2 or asymmetrical).
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Oh also maybe scouting gets buffed with 1 geyser. Assuming, of course, that the new system offers a 0 or 1 and the old system offers a 0, 0.5, or 1.
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On November 18 2014 01:30 LaLuSh wrote:
Two gas geysers. Do they add any real depth which could not be had with one geyser?
You could argue that 2 vespene geysers allow for an easier time scouting, meaning that players have a harder time hiding what they are trying to do in early game-early midgame, which narrows all the possible timings that exist in the game and that could be thrown at you, empowering the defensive player.
Other than that i don't see many advantages from having 2 geysers over 1, maybe as others have said they could make stealing your opponents gas harder, but that can be easily fixed by increasing the cost of a refinery/extractor/assimilator to be the double it is now days (or the same it was in BW), so players will need to make a good investment on stealing your opponents gas.
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There's a big difference between seeing one gas taken and two gases taken. I really like the two geyser change and think it does add considerably to the game. When a player takes the second/fourth gas is an important timing in builds. And it simplifies the ramping up of gas usage for newer players considerably.
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You have some good points about the scouting with one or two geysers!
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EPT
