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On October 18 2014 06:33 Yakikorosu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 06:21 Yakikorosu wrote:On October 18 2014 04:30 Thax wrote:On October 18 2014 04:11 Yakikorosu wrote:On October 18 2014 01:21 Thax wrote:On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote:
People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic. MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ... Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons. By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese. It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them. But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic." I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course): TaeJa - 69.4% INnoVation - 67.6% Zest - 65.4% herO(jOin) - 64.3% Classic - 64.1% Life - 62.7% Bomber - 59.8% San - 58.9% soO - 58.5% Jaedong - 56.6% MMA - 56.2% jjakji - 55.9% Polt - 55.5% HyuN - 55.4% StarDust - 50% MC - 40.5% So yeah, I guess TaeJa is pretty good.
Were these winrates based on games againsts "Korean" Koreans (that is, Koreans who were on KESPA teams at the time of the switch) or does it include all Koreans?
the broader group of Koreans?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 18 2014 23:25 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 06:33 Yakikorosu wrote:On October 18 2014 06:21 Yakikorosu wrote:On October 18 2014 04:30 Thax wrote:On October 18 2014 04:11 Yakikorosu wrote:On October 18 2014 01:21 Thax wrote:On October 17 2014 14:20 Yakikorosu wrote:
People will always hate on Protoss unless they do something to become a fan favorite but I don't agree that Classic is at any risk of being a flash in the pan like Sniper or Seed. He almost made it to the RO8 in Season 1 this year, losing to his teammates Rain and PartinG in the RO16, did great in the KeSPA Cup, etc. He's just not a fan favorite--people have fallen in love with herO so they sneer at Classic losing in the RO32 in S3 when herO didn't even make it INTO Code S that season.
The only Protoss in the world you can say is clearly stronger than Classic is Zest. Who else? All you've got left is talented Korea-based players that didn't achieve much this year like Rain, herO (whose main accomplishments are losing in the finals of two big tournaments and winning the weakest IEM in memory where he beat nothing but foreigners and MC), PartinG and sOs (okay, sOs accomplished ONE thing this year but that was a long time ago), and players who've made their names beating up Europeans like MC, San and StarDust.
Polt is my favorite player and I am VERY worried for him going up against Classic. MC made his name by taking 2 GSL titles ... Obviously I meant in recent times--i.e., what they did to earn the name he has NOW. The last of MC's GSL titles, as legitimate as they were, was three and a half years ago. I guess you could also say that San "made his name" by having Tastosis constantly make fun of him in early 2011 after he accidentally blocked his own natural with cannons. By that logic Polt didn't do anything to earn his name but beat up some Americans and the occasional wandering Chinese. It's true for some more than others. For example, since HotS came out, Polt's match winrate against only Koreans and only in offline games (the setting for the top premier tournaments) is a solid 55.5%. MC's winrate under those same standards is 40.5%. So yeah, ever since HotS came out, MC loses to Koreans much more often than he beats them. But the point of my post is not to hate on MC. If you read what I was posting about I was arguing against the article's and many posters' assumptions that unless Classic wins Blizzcon, he's just another "patchtoss" and doesn't deserve respect as a top player. I still stand by my statement that over the course of 2014, except for Zest, there's no Protoss you can point to and say "he's clearly played better in 2014 than Classic." I actually found my own winrates quoted above quite interesting, so I looked up every Blizzcon player's records in HotS against Koreans in offline matches (on Aligulac, of course): TaeJa - 69.4% INnoVation - 67.6% Zest - 65.4% herO(jOin) - 64.3% Classic - 64.1% Life - 62.7% Bomber - 59.8% San - 58.9% soO - 58.5% Jaedong - 56.6% MMA - 56.2% jjakji - 55.9% Polt - 55.5% HyuN - 55.4% StarDust - 50% MC - 40.5% So yeah, I guess TaeJa is pretty good. Were these winrates based on games againsts "Korean" Koreans (that is, Koreans who were on KESPA teams at the time of the switch) or does it include all Koreans? the broader group of Koreans?
Almost certainly all Koreans, it's not possible to filter for "KeSPA" Koreans because the definition is fuzzy given that some teams send their players abroad, some play online and some don't.
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I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
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Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run.
Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact.
Classic’s run starting in Code A...
+ Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES.....
Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon, not necessarily 1 per day (which wouldn't have worked anyway because time). Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year 
On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills?
Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now?
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On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now?
Now? Um....soO.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO.
Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row
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On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row
He doesn't even make finals anymore 
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
sick burn would read again
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore
True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5.
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On October 19 2014 03:15 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5.
Yeah i agree, i just hope he does well again next year  (well for Life's standard)
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stop chatting and start writing more articles! 
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On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon, not necessarily 1 per day (which wouldn't have worked anyway because time). Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year
If so then you shouldnt have published article#1 already. I think that 1 per day is the most important thing.
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On October 19 2014 03:15 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5.
Would you say he "choked" in the last one?
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On October 19 2014 05:31 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon, not necessarily 1 per day (which wouldn't have worked anyway because time). Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year If so then you shouldnt have published article#1 already. I think that 1 per day is the most important thing.
But if they did publish it later they wouldn't even have had 16 days until the Global Finals to publish one each day
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 19 2014 05:43 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 03:15 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5. Would you say he "choked" in the last one?
Life or soO?
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On October 19 2014 05:43 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 03:15 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5. Would you say he "choked" in the last one?
+ Show Spoiler +Edit: I probably shouldn't have answered this question, it wasn't directed to me.
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On October 19 2014 06:56 sadiroTnuda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 05:43 TheDwf wrote:On October 19 2014 03:15 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5. Would you say he "choked" in the last one? Sadly, at this point, it's probably irrelevant whether soO "choked" in those games or not. Anyone casually looking at soO's past results and his most recent results (the games against Innovation), can easily come up with a semi-plausible explanation involving the words "Kong," "second place," "finals," and "choking." It's not necessarily a bad explanation of why Innovation won. Obviously, soO entered the finals as someone who had already lost four finals and that probably did affect his mindset. So, there is something to saying that soO was hindered by his past failures. The problem, however, is that by saying that soO choked you can explain the GSL season 3 finals without ever having to actually watch the games involved in those finals. It's unpleasant and unsatisfying as an explanation because it involves explaining the results of the games by means of the player's mindset, something viewer's have limited access to, rather than by means of the specific builds, actions, and events in those games, which viewers can y'know actually see. Of course, that's probably the point, saying soO loses in the finals because he chokes is an easy explanation and it will be the prevalent explanation because it's an easy one or, at least, its easier than watching and analyzing the actual games.
There aren't so few games of SC2 out there that you have to draw gameplay conclusions from every single one you come across.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 19 2014 06:56 sadiroTnuda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 05:43 TheDwf wrote:On October 19 2014 03:15 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5. Would you say he "choked" in the last one? Sadly, at this point, it's probably irrelevant whether soO "choked" in those games or not. Anyone casually looking at soO's past results and his most recent results (the games against Innovation), can easily come up with a semi-plausible explanation involving the words "Kong," "second place," "finals," and "choking." It's not necessarily a bad explanation of why Innovation won. Obviously, soO entered the finals as someone who had already lost four finals and that probably did affect his mindset. So, there is something to saying that soO was hindered by his past failures. The problem, however, is that by saying that soO choked you can explain the GSL season 3 finals without ever having to actually watch the games involved in those finals. It's unpleasant and unsatisfying as an explanation because it involves explaining the results of the games by means of the player's mindset, something viewer's have limited access to, rather than by means of the specific builds, actions, and events in those games, which viewers can y'know actually see. Of course, that's probably the point, saying soO loses in the finals because he chokes is an easy explanation and it will be the prevalent explanation because it's an easy one or, at least, its easier than watching and analyzing the actual games.
I would never deny that Innovation is a very good player - perhaps even the best in TvZ - or that he deserved to win the GSL by merit of his skill alone. I will, however, say that soO makes mistakes more frequently in finals settings than he does elsewhere. His finals against Solar - an opponent he tore apart not too long earlier in a match-up he really masters - was a very good example of this. Obviously "nerves" doesn't tell the whole story, but it has become a reality that soO suffers from problems beyond just gameplay once he reaches the finals of any tournament.
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On October 19 2014 07:07 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2014 06:56 sadiroTnuda wrote:On October 19 2014 05:43 TheDwf wrote:On October 19 2014 03:15 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 02:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 19 2014 02:21 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:On October 19 2014 01:52 Zealously wrote:On October 19 2014 01:09 tekrebel wrote:
I thought these were going to be released one a day leading up to blizzcon.... WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES..... Actually, we're releasing all 16 before Blizzcon. Due to logistics (stuff needs to be written), the first few will have longer delays between them. Don't worry, we'll get them all just like last year On October 19 2014 01:43 sadiroTnuda wrote:Good article. In my view there is an additional reason to put Classic’s 2014 results on trial, as it were. His greatest achievement in 2014, his GSL run, may not provide the best evidence for his talent not just because of when it occurred but also who he defeated during that run. Starting in the round of 16 he went 2:1 over PartinG, 2:1 over soO, 3:1 over ParalyzE, 4:2 over Maru, and 4:2 over soO. That’s…a lot of teamkills, oh, and a win over Maru. Given the prevalence of SKT players in Code S in that GSL season you could say that at least one teamkill was inevitable, but, still, that’s a lot of teamkills, 4 of 5 series won in teamkills, in fact. Classic’s run starting in Code A... + Show Spoiler +2:0 Seed
0:2 TAiLS
2:0 RorO
2:1 Hydra
1:2 Life
2:1 Hydra
2:1 PartinG
2:1 soO
3:1 Paralyze
4:2 Maru
4:2 soO
Not bad, but hey isn’t that a lot of teamkills? Haha Life beat the champion when soO couldn't. Who's the best now? Now? Um....soO. Life doesn't lose 5 finals in a row He doesn't even make finals anymore True. But if he had, you can be pretty sure he wouldn't have choked in all 5. Would you say he "choked" in the last one? Sadly, at this point, it's probably irrelevant whether soO "choked" in those games or not. Anyone casually looking at soO's past results and his most recent results (the games against Innovation), can easily come up with a semi-plausible explanation involving the words "Kong," "second place," "finals," and "choking." It's not necessarily a bad explanation of why Innovation won. Obviously, soO entered the finals as someone who had already lost four finals and that probably did affect his mindset. So, there is something to saying that soO was hindered by his past failures. The problem, however, is that by saying that soO choked you can explain the GSL season 3 finals without ever having to actually watch the games involved in those finals. It's unpleasant and unsatisfying as an explanation because it involves explaining the results of the games by means of the player's mindset, something viewer's have limited access to, rather than by means of the specific builds, actions, and events in those games, which viewers can y'know actually see. Of course, that's probably the point, saying soO loses in the finals because he chokes is an easy explanation and it will be the prevalent explanation because it's an easy one or, at least, its easier than watching and analyzing the actual games. I would never deny that Innovation is a very good player - perhaps even the best in TvZ - or that he deserved to win the GSL by merit of his skill alone. I will, however, say that soO makes mistakes more frequently in finals settings than he does elsewhere. His finals against Solar - an opponent he tore apart not too long earlier in a match-up he really masters - was a very good example of this. Obviously "nerves" doesn't tell the whole story, but it has become a reality that soO suffers from problems beyond just gameplay once he reaches the finals of any tournament.
To be sure. I think you’re right about both soO’s performance in finals and Innovation's TvZ, but why did you say that soO choked in all 5 finals? Is that really the best explanation of all 5 losses? Well, whatever, it was inappropriate of me to respond to TheDwf's question so it's not as if I'm in any position to object.
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