The KeSPA player exodus has been one of the biggest stories of the off-season. At the same time, a few players have gone against the current and returned to KeSPA.
At Red Bull Battle Grounds, TeamLiquid had a chance to talk to DongRaeGu and JinAir_Trap, two players who have decided to take their careers in wildly different directions.
DongRaeGu: "If you only chase money, you could lose your passion, your mentality, everything."
This interview was conducted in a mix of English and Korean. The following transcript has been edited and condensed.
TeamLiquid: How do you feel about your results here at Red Bull Washington? Disappointed?
DongRaeGu: Not a lot – I didn't practice so much for Red Bull Battle Grounds, because I was focusing on GSL. So I didn't have high expectations in terms of my results.
How's the team search going? You've been teamless for a bit.
Some offers came, but... I just want to see how the WCS system changes – the region lock and anything else. I'm just waiting to see the situation – I could go anywhere.
Foreign teams? Or KeSPA teams?
I prefer foreign teams, but also I just don't want to go to KeSPA teams.
Why not?
It's so hard when someone else is forcing you to play the game. So I don't want to join a KeSPA team.
When you were with team MVP, was it a really free environment?
No one forced me to play the game when I was with MVP – I was really free to play the game.
But you practiced a lot, still? [DRG understood this as "do you still practice a lot now?"]
Hmmm, I think so, better than when I was in MVP.
If the new WCS system works out in a way that you could get a visa to play in Europe or America, would you rather play in those regions than the GSL?
For me to get a visa and live abroad, it seems like it would be kind of iffy. Starting with the practice environment, it doesn't seem like practice would go well living in North America.
Playing in WCS Korea and playing foreign tournaments at the same time, I think that would be the best direction for me.
A lot of players are leaving KeSPA teams and looking for foreign teams. The foreign SC2 scene isn't in the best situation right now, so what do you think of their choices?
I agree 100% with their opinion to get out of KeSPA. Because, it's so fun to play in overseas tournaments and communicate with foreign fans and do streaming. It's more motivating to be a progamer.
Isn't the money difference pretty big?
While KeSPA teams would give you a lot of money, it's like PartinG said in other interviews: money isn't everything. If you only chase money, you could lose your passion, your mentality, everything.
I think it's best to just do what you like. Money, if you prefer the money then there's nothing wrong with going with KeSPA.
You've been a progamer for a while. Did you ever think that you wanted to join a KeSPA team?
There was a time when I considered it, and at one time I was even prepared to leave my team to join a KeSPA team. But honestly, I kind of – they call it the "chicken coop" system – I wasn't confident at all that I could handle being forced to play in such a strict way. So I gave it some thought but I don't think it went any further than that. In the end I thought my current situation was good.
What do you think of players like INnoVation who are conversely returning to KeSPA teams?
It turns out there are some players who prefer it when someone else is forcefully making them practice. Some players need that to focus more and practice and produce good results. That's just stuff you do according to your own style, so I can't say anything about it.
In the foreign community, a lot of people say certain players would do well if they returned to a KeSPA team. Do you agree?
I definitely think that there are some players who are optimized for a KeSPA environment.
Players like Solar have said before, that players like me or INnoVation would definitely get better results if we were forced to train under a KeSPA environment. So that is something people say.
Finally, anything you'd like to say to the fans?
I'm so sorry to my fans about my results in GSL and Red bull. But I will stream more often and practice a lot, and find a good team. I'll do my best in 2015, I hope so. I'll see you then!
Trap: "I think I have limitations if I practice alone."
TeamLiquid: How do you feel coming abroad again?
Trap: From the first time I stepped onto the stage, hearing the cheers of the fans, the audience, I felt once again that things are different here than in Korea.
You left IM and were teamless for a while before joining Jin Air. Did you look for a foreign team during that time?
I didn't look for one that intensively – I did ask around a bit. There wasn't anything that I really liked, and I ended up changing my mind midway. So I ended up coming to Jin Air while looking for a Korean team.
Right now, KeSPA players are leaving their teams and looking for foreign teams. What's the reason you were looking for a KeSPA team?
Me, I'm kind of... I think I have limitations if I practice alone. That, and I wanted to be the best in Korea, so I came to join a KeSPA team.
How much time did you spend at the Jin Air house before you came to Red Bull?
I entered the house about three days before leaving for Red Bull, so I practiced a bit before I came.
Any time to get to know your teammates?
sOs I sort of knew before – my new teammates are all nice, and they're people I've seen around before, so I'm getting to know them.
You said in another interview that you hoped to learn from sOs. You actually beat him twice at Red Bull Battle Grounds. What do you think about that?
[The briefest of smirks] In the case of PvP, it's common for things like your day to day condition, mind games, etc. directly decide who wins. So, I think I was just ahead in that regard in this tournament.
So who's better normally?
[Laughs] It hasn't been so long since I entered the team, so I don't really know... but if you look at sOs' broadcast games he's very good, and he's accomplished a lot in his career. He's someone I respect a lot.
You seemed to be hitting your stride when you won MLG Anaheim. What did you think of your play in the months following that big win?
There weren't many tournaments for me after MLG, so my skill did go down some. Still, preparing for this tournament, I was able to bring my level back up to some degree. There's WECG Korean prelims waiting for me back at home, so I'll have to prepare hard for that.
Overall, how do you rate your performance this tournament?
I think I played well in the quarters, but I have a lot of regrets about my play in the semis and 3rd place match.
Terran seemed very strong for a couple of months, but looking at recent results like the early rounds of WECG prelims, Protoss appear to be coming up again. What do you think about the state of balance now?
Terran got a lot better after the widow mine patch and the introduction of the new ladder maps, and I had a hard time practicing. Protoss players are currently adapting, so I think it's pretty even now.
Do you have any particular thoughts on the WCS 2015 changes? How about the idea to give WCS points for Proleague?
The Korean region is over-saturated, so there's some disadvantages to Korean players. I think giving points for Proleague is a good idea – it's tough to compete in foreign tournaments when you're playing in Proleague. I'm not sure how exactly the points will be given out, but I'm very positive about the idea. The WCS system needs to be overhauled, but it's definitely a very difficult thing to do.
Any predictions for the WCS Grand Finals?
[Laughs] Well, since I'm out of the running, I don't really know who's playing.
Any final comments or words?
I haven't been to many foreign tournaments, but each time I compete in one I feel like I gain new motivation. After I go back to Korea, I'll do my best to perform well in upcoming tournaments.
DRG seems to really dislike the Kespa philosophy (or maybe its just the translation). I agree with the different strokes for different folks idea in this situation. It is still the case that players generally perform better in the kespa environment with a few exceptions. Really interested in seeing how all these koreans jumping ship do in 2015.
I think one thing people forget about KeSPA is the luxury of having an experienced coaching staff going day in, day out through your gameplay. It's definitely a factor which non-KeSPA teams can't provide.
This is why I think Fantasy will flop once he moves to a foreign team. I love him and all, but I think he's more of a product of an awesome coaching system (iloveoov et al) which is why he's been able to be so successful.
hmm, this is interesting. They both admit that being in Kespa would give them more money and also more skill, but DRG doesn't want to sacrifice his 'freedom'. It's weird though, in any other real sport, if you are going to be a pro, you have to sacrifice your 'freedom' too...
On September 25 2014 19:37 Ammanas wrote: hmm, this is interesting. They both admit that being in Kespa would give them more money and also more skill, but DRG doesn't want to sacrifice his 'freedom'. It's weird though, in any other real sport, if you are going to be a pro, you have to sacrifice your 'freedom' too...
Most pro sports that I know of you train until the early/lateish afternoon with your team mates, then go back to live in your own place, unless your coach is Felixstowe Magath
Because of the diminishing returns and even counter-productive burnout issue that comes with overtraining in physical sports you don't have many who grind it out 8+ hours a day.
On September 25 2014 19:37 Ammanas wrote: hmm, this is interesting. They both admit that being in Kespa would give them more money and also more skill, but DRG doesn't want to sacrifice his 'freedom'. It's weird though, in any other real sport, if you are going to be a pro, you have to sacrifice your 'freedom' too...
Most pro sports that I know of you train until the early/lateish afternoon with your team mates, then go back to live in your own place, unless your coach is Felixstowe Magath
Because of the diminishing returns and even counter-productive burnout issue that comes with overtraining in physical sports you don't have many who grind it out 8+ hours a day.
dunno, I mostly hear about 2 phase training in football, hockey and tennis which are the sports I follow the most.
It's difficult to draw a direct comparison given much of the base technical ability and technique is developed in childhood and early adolescence in most sports. Pro training is just maintaining that level and incrementally improving where possible, but majority of training is on strategy/team shape and physical fitness.
The Kespa regime will make most players better, but equally can be a bit restrictive for certain personalities. I could see DRG benefitting from a stint in a Kespa house that isn't especially prolonged, for example Stardust developed a lot better macro play styles from his time with CJ.
On September 25 2014 20:47 bo1b wrote: I can't think of any sport on the planet which has 12+ hour a day every day of the year training regime like the kespa houses do lol.
I don't think they do though. From what we've heard (mostly from Park stay with EG-TL and then some foreigners stay in CJ house), they do 8 hours training with 1 hour for lunch, which is exactly the same I do in my job. All the 12/14/whatever hours training are players playing the game even outside of official training hours (when preparing for their individual matches for example).
On September 25 2014 18:17 GTR wrote: I think one thing people forget about KeSPA is the luxury of having an experienced coaching staff going day in, day out through your gameplay. It's definitely a factor which non-KeSPA teams can't provide.
This is why I think Fantasy will flop once he moves to a foreign team. I love him and all, but I think he's more of a product of an awesome coaching system (iloveoov et al) which is why he's been able to be so successful.
Fantasy has accomplished pretty much zilch in SC2. At this point, a move to a foreign team couldn't hurt. The Kespa training regimen is great for those who need it, but motivation is an important factor as well. If getting to play in foreign tournaments provides more motivation than being under the Kespa whip, then moving to a foreign team is perfectly understandable.
On September 25 2014 18:17 GTR wrote: I think one thing people forget about KeSPA is the luxury of having an experienced coaching staff going day in, day out through your gameplay. It's definitely a factor which non-KeSPA teams can't provide.
This is why I think Fantasy will flop once he moves to a foreign team. I love him and all, but I think he's more of a product of an awesome coaching system (iloveoov et al) which is why he's been able to be so successful.
I blame JD's bad results from moving to EG instead of staying with KeSPA; his success always came from being one of the hardest working progamers, an environment that doesn't really exist in the western teams. Some gamers don't benefit from a less strict schedule.
On September 25 2014 18:17 GTR wrote: I think one thing people forget about KeSPA is the luxury of having an experienced coaching staff going day in, day out through your gameplay. It's definitely a factor which non-KeSPA teams can't provide.
This is why I think Fantasy will flop once he moves to a foreign team. I love him and all, but I think he's more of a product of an awesome coaching system (iloveoov et al) which is why he's been able to be so successful.
I blame JD's bad results from moving to EG instead of staying with KeSPA; his success always came from being one of the hardest working progamers, an environment that doesn't really exist in the western teams. Some gamers don't benefit from a less strict schedule.
His results were pretty shockingly bad in 2013 when he was on EG for sure.
He may well benefit from going back now, but it is a complete myth that JD hasn't got results on a foreign team.
On September 25 2014 18:17 GTR wrote: I think one thing people forget about KeSPA is the luxury of having an experienced coaching staff going day in, day out through your gameplay. It's definitely a factor which non-KeSPA teams can't provide.
This is why I think Fantasy will flop once he moves to a foreign team. I love him and all, but I think he's more of a product of an awesome coaching system (iloveoov et al) which is why he's been able to be so successful.
I blame JD's bad results from moving to EG instead of staying with KeSPA; his success always came from being one of the hardest working progamers, an environment that doesn't really exist in the western teams. Some gamers don't benefit from a less strict schedule.
Every gamer can get better following more strict schedule. It is just about what are you ready to sacrifice for the success of becoming better.
Biggest advantage I see about Kespa are the training partners. But Koreans on foreign teams also organized training groups with each other, so its not that big of a deal. Coaches also are a factor, but I think they can't do as much when it comes to improving the skill of the players, like they could do in BW.
I guess if you feel capable of placing in the money at foreign events its tempting to leave Kespa even if its just for a short while.
How selfish of DRG that he wants to enjoy what he´s doing. Haven´t they taught him in kespa prison that it´s about honor and that honor means strictly no fun?
Guys I think what DRG is extremely interesting especially is you put it back in the South Korean context.
South Korea has always had the best high school students in like every domains : math physics and everything.
Nevertheless, this goes with an extremely high price as the standard school regimen of Korean kids is just nuts. They go to private school and lecture before AND after the normal public school. It means they start their day at 5 am and go to bed pas midnight.
As I was in seoul in 2004, i've witnessed large groups 12 years old with uniforms and school bags walking down the streets together at 11pm. Apparently this even has gone worse since then, I heard a Korean teacher talking about course finishing at 1 am or even 2 am.
More and more professors and scientist are trying to put this to an end but they don't weight much compared to the social pressure and parent's expectation that are always demanding more and more.
A spectacular side effect is that when go in university, Professors complainsthat Korean students show no taste and no curiosity for the subject they are supposed to study : the regimen killed all their enthusiasm and - to take DRG's words - passion. They're good at repeating what they're taught but they have no creativity which is a bit problem when it's time to get higher level degrees -enginering or PhD's- where enthusiasm and creativity are a must have.
So Korea has the best High school students but after high school, they're not in the top of the world anymore.
I think that this thing about being in KeSPA or not shows symptoms of larger issues Korea has with studying and working in general, on that matter this interview is extremely interesting.
(side note : another side effect of this regimen is that sadly, Korea has one of the worst suicide rate among teenagers and it keeps increasing)
I remember my step mother would tell me stories about how her dad would beat her whenever she got less than perfect grades... a lot of my friends have stories like that.
All the Koreans I've ever known work, study or practice long hours in whatever job, school or discipline they find themselves in... And it's usually because they've been raised that way. Personally, I had a lot of hardship over learning the piano with my mother... she'd make me practice for hours and hours and hit my hands with the spoon whenever I fucked up a note.
There's a reason why South Koreans work the most hours out of any labor force in the world.
On September 26 2014 04:37 Gamegene wrote: All the Koreans I've ever known work, study or practice long hours in whatever job, school or discipline they find themselves in... And it's usually because they've been raised that way. Personally, I had a lot of hardship over learning the piano with my mother... she'd make me practice for hours and hours and hit my hands with the spoon whenever I fucked up a note.
There's a reason why South Koreans work the most hours out of any labor force in the world.
What's with the Koreans and their kids learning the piano?
i always find it funny when people comment on the idea of being paid to do a job. It's their job to practice and play. Insert Allen Iverson's bullshit rant about practice and I still find it funny that people cannot get passed kespa versus the world.
Well, different methods for different folks so nothing he said is surprising. If not following a schedule gives him better motivation, great! If following a schedule helps you more, great as well! lol.
On September 26 2014 04:37 Gamegene wrote: All the Koreans I've ever known work, study or practice long hours in whatever job, school or discipline they find themselves in... And it's usually because they've been raised that way. Personally, I had a lot of hardship over learning the piano with my mother... she'd make me practice for hours and hours and hit my hands with the spoon whenever I fucked up a note.
There's a reason why South Koreans work the most hours out of any labor force in the world.
What's with the Koreans and their kids learning the piano?
I wouldn't say Korean, lots of my Asian friends know how to play the piano. Dunno why it's so common, maybe competition among families or something (so I heard).
On September 25 2014 19:13 REyeM wrote: Good luck getting to Ro8 of GSL ever again with that attidude DRG.
The attitude where he wants to have fun with what he's doing?
Yes, good luck with that.
Has worked wonders for him so far
Doesn't guarantee it stays that way.
You know what definitely doesn't guarantee you maintaining your skill?
Burnout. See Soulkey.
Sure being in other team/teamless doesn't mean you can't get to ro8 but you definitely have better chance achieving it with Kespa.
if it's true that they are only forced to practice 8h +1h meal which is normal workday for most of us and Soulkey can't handle that?
Some people's lack of ability to grasp that there can be a difference between people, between situations and different people in different situations boggles my mind. Not everyone is like you, not every situation is the same, and not everyone thrives in the same situations. And everyone always tells me I'm the antisocial, cold one.
The workday of the vast amount of people I know occupies a similar timeframe, but is much, much less intense.
Yeah you work reasonably hard, you're not pushing yourself to be the best retail worker or call centre operator in the world, unless you're something of an outlier
And it is not only 8 hours starcraft. While you eat, you watch replays or think about the game and talk about the game. You play the game after the official practice time, when a important match/tournament will occure. Its more like sleep, train, eat, repeat. There is a common reason why pros in sports dont do their training 8 hours a day, why they dont train from 9 to 5 their sport. But in esport it is still common to train even 10 hours a day. You do that for so long, so many pros burn out so early.
DRG chooses the way it should be. Even when his skill lvl drops a bit, he will be able to stay in the scene for longer without losing the passion.
On September 25 2014 19:13 REyeM wrote: Good luck getting to Ro8 of GSL ever again with that attidude DRG.
The attitude where he wants to have fun with what he's doing?
Yes, good luck with that.
Has worked wonders for him so far
Doesn't guarantee it stays that way.
Neither does going to Kespa.
On September 26 2014 05:23 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2014 05:14 Yozora wrote:
On September 26 2014 04:36 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2014 00:01 Yozora wrote:
On September 25 2014 23:58 Thax wrote:
On September 25 2014 19:13 REyeM wrote: Good luck getting to Ro8 of GSL ever again with that attidude DRG.
The attitude where he wants to have fun with what he's doing?
Yes, good luck with that.
Has worked wonders for him so far
Doesn't guarantee it stays that way.
You know what definitely doesn't guarantee you maintaining your skill?
Burnout. See Soulkey.
Sure being in other team/teamless doesn't mean you can't get to ro8 but you definitely have better chance achieving it with Kespa.
if it's true that they are only forced to practice 8h +1h meal which is normal workday for most of us and Soulkey can't handle that?
Some people's lack of ability to grasp that there can be a difference between people, between situations and different people in different situations boggles my mind. Not everyone is like you, not every situation is the same, and not everyone thrives in the same situations. And everyone always tells me I'm the antisocial, cold one.
- difference between people, between situations and different people in different situations boggles my mind. Not everyone is like you, not every situation is the same, and not everyone thrives in the same situations. -
And then you wonder why they don't win. Life is tough alright?
On September 26 2014 21:33 Clonester wrote: DRG chooses the way it should be. Even when his skill lvl drops a bit, he will be able to stay in the scene for longer without losing the passion.
On September 25 2014 19:13 REyeM wrote: Good luck getting to Ro8 of GSL ever again with that attidude DRG.
The attitude where he wants to have fun with what he's doing?
Yes, good luck with that.
Has worked wonders for him so far
Doesn't guarantee it stays that way.
Neither does going to Kespa.
On September 26 2014 05:23 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2014 05:14 Yozora wrote:
On September 26 2014 04:36 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2014 00:01 Yozora wrote:
On September 25 2014 23:58 Thax wrote:
On September 25 2014 19:13 REyeM wrote: Good luck getting to Ro8 of GSL ever again with that attidude DRG.
The attitude where he wants to have fun with what he's doing?
Yes, good luck with that.
Has worked wonders for him so far
Doesn't guarantee it stays that way.
You know what definitely doesn't guarantee you maintaining your skill?
Burnout. See Soulkey.
Sure being in other team/teamless doesn't mean you can't get to ro8 but you definitely have better chance achieving it with Kespa.
if it's true that they are only forced to practice 8h +1h meal which is normal workday for most of us and Soulkey can't handle that?
Some people's lack of ability to grasp that there can be a difference between people, between situations and different people in different situations boggles my mind. Not everyone is like you, not every situation is the same, and not everyone thrives in the same situations. And everyone always tells me I'm the antisocial, cold one.
- difference between people, between situations and different people in different situations boggles my mind. Not everyone is like you, not every situation is the same, and not everyone thrives in the same situations. -
And then you wonder why they don't win. Life is tough alright?
On September 26 2014 21:33 Clonester wrote: DRG chooses the way it should be. Even when his skill lvl drops a bit, he will be able to stay in the scene for longer without losing the passion.
On September 25 2014 19:13 REyeM wrote: Good luck getting to Ro8 of GSL ever again with that attidude DRG.
The attitude where he wants to have fun with what he's doing?
Yes, good luck with that.
Has worked wonders for him so far
Doesn't guarantee it stays that way.
Neither does going to Kespa.
On September 26 2014 05:23 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2014 05:14 Yozora wrote:
On September 26 2014 04:36 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2014 00:01 Yozora wrote:
On September 25 2014 23:58 Thax wrote:
On September 25 2014 19:13 REyeM wrote: Good luck getting to Ro8 of GSL ever again with that attidude DRG.
The attitude where he wants to have fun with what he's doing?
Yes, good luck with that.
Has worked wonders for him so far
Doesn't guarantee it stays that way.
You know what definitely doesn't guarantee you maintaining your skill?
Burnout. See Soulkey.
Sure being in other team/teamless doesn't mean you can't get to ro8 but you definitely have better chance achieving it with Kespa.
if it's true that they are only forced to practice 8h +1h meal which is normal workday for most of us and Soulkey can't handle that?
Some people's lack of ability to grasp that there can be a difference between people, between situations and different people in different situations boggles my mind. Not everyone is like you, not every situation is the same, and not everyone thrives in the same situations. And everyone always tells me I'm the antisocial, cold one.
- difference between people, between situations and different people in different situations boggles my mind. Not everyone is like you, not every situation is the same, and not everyone thrives in the same situations. -
And then you wonder why they don't win. Life is tough alright?
On September 26 2014 21:33 Clonester wrote: DRG chooses the way it should be. Even when his skill lvl drops a bit, he will be able to stay in the scene for longer without losing the passion.
And then he won't win GSL ever, gg wp.
I'm not wondering why they don't win? Plenty of my favourite non-KeSPA players win stuff.
Lots of good players training under the KeSPA system never win a GSL. DRG is not one of them. He already has one.
On September 26 2014 21:33 Clonester wrote: And it is not only 8 hours starcraft. While you eat, you watch replays or think about the game and talk about the game. You play the game after the official practice time, when a important match/tournament will occure. Its more like sleep, train, eat, repeat. There is a common reason why pros in sports dont do their training 8 hours a day, why they dont train from 9 to 5 their sport. But in esport it is still common to train even 10 hours a day. You do that for so long, so many pros burn out so early.
DRG chooses the way it should be. Even when his skill lvl drops a bit, he will be able to stay in the scene for longer without losing the passion.
*occurred.
That is because E-sports is taken seriously as a job in korea by its culture. You do not have to win a GSL to be a pro-player. Any person can become a pro-player and earn some cash but the ones that want to win a championship have to push harder than everyone else.
What a necro. Feels strange scrolling back a page and seeing myself posting.
6 years later my feelings haven’t changed massively either. The Kespa system clearly works to a point, but it’s not a catch all, nor is it without flaws. We’ve seen guys like ByuN prosper more doing things their own way for example.
It’s difficult to assess from a Western eye though, besides a certain level of repetitious grinding seeing diminishing returns, which I think is vaguely universal.
EPT
DongRaeGu and 
JinAir_Trap, two players who have decided to take their careers in wildly different directions.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/redbullstuff/trappitytrap.jpg)
but seriously mad respects for DRG, Acer or Liquid, pick up plox
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gOBraj3.jpg)
.
