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The effects of worker pairing - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Mahanaim
Profile Joined December 2012
Korea (South)1002 Posts
August 08 2014 04:30 GMT
#41
oh man, nice analysis!
Celebrating Starcraft since... a long time ago.
GiveMeCake
Profile Joined October 2010
148 Posts
August 08 2014 04:55 GMT
#42

Below Masters being extremely precise with your timings will be extremely effective. So effective that you won't be below masters for very long at all. Even at low masters, I would expect to win a game (or gain an insurmountable advantage) with any timing I use if I I hit it correctly and don't f*** up my micro. I have won matches against players with good macro and better micro than I purely from being ~10 seconds ahead.

Of course, the longer a game goes the less 10 seconds matter, but you can get that 10 second advantage REALLY early and although this one mostly only applies to early game and taking bases, you can repeatedly grab an advantage so that you are further ahead.

EDIT: Of course, if everybody is doing it (eg: the pro level), then you won't get any advantage - but if you don't do it you will lose, which is often considered sub-optimal in Starcraft.


Post some replays proving that 10 seconds made the difference between winning and losing...
I had a dream I moved to Korea to become a GSL champion. I slept in PC bangs and practiced only vs the PC. I named my self Death and faced Life in the finals. I beat him, but ended up dying as I killed his last building.
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
August 08 2014 05:04 GMT
#43
On August 07 2014 22:55 Jer99 wrote:
Nice! It may seem small, but if you pair your workers at the start that's the difference of dropping your barracks at 1:34 instead of 1:40, which results in a faster OC etc etc


i have seen a replay with a 1:32 barracks
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
August 08 2014 05:22 GMT
#44
On August 08 2014 13:55 GiveMeCake wrote:
Show nested quote +

Below Masters being extremely precise with your timings will be extremely effective. So effective that you won't be below masters for very long at all. Even at low masters, I would expect to win a game (or gain an insurmountable advantage) with any timing I use if I I hit it correctly and don't f*** up my micro. I have won matches against players with good macro and better micro than I purely from being ~10 seconds ahead.

Of course, the longer a game goes the less 10 seconds matter, but you can get that 10 second advantage REALLY early and although this one mostly only applies to early game and taking bases, you can repeatedly grab an advantage so that you are further ahead.

EDIT: Of course, if everybody is doing it (eg: the pro level), then you won't get any advantage - but if you don't do it you will lose, which is often considered sub-optimal in Starcraft.


Post some replays proving that 10 seconds made the difference between winning and losing...


do you really think being at the enemies base 10 seconds earlier makes no difference? assume hellion harass vs protoss, 10 sec earlier and he doesnt get that forcefield > dead workers > win game
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
GiveMeCake
Profile Joined October 2010
148 Posts
August 08 2014 06:41 GMT
#45
do you really think being at the enemies base 10 seconds earlier makes no difference? assume hellion harass vs protoss, 10 sec earlier and he doesnt get that forcefield > dead workers > win game


I believe the difference is so minimal that it would not decide whether you won the game or not. What hellion timing are you thinking of that would strike before the sentry had enough energy to FF?

Again, I'm still waiting for those replays showing worker stacking and split second timing being the deciding factor.
I had a dream I moved to Korea to become a GSL champion. I slept in PC bangs and practiced only vs the PC. I named my self Death and faced Life in the finals. I beat him, but ended up dying as I killed his last building.
CutTheEnemy
Profile Joined November 2013
Canada373 Posts
August 08 2014 08:42 GMT
#46
id just like to add my observations to this on a general game.

the minigame i like to play EVERY game on a 14/15pool opening is what time does it go down!

The earliest ive ever done a 15 pool(if supply clicks to 15) is 1.56 and i got that by NOT pairing the workers but sending them to their own mineral patches but of course letting the new drones go to their closest patch relative to their larva position.

Sometimes ive gone mass try hard and rallied all drones before the pool to the closest patches relative to the base and hit 1.57-2.05. it didnt make sense. closer patch mining is optimal right?

I found out, sometimes the pairing actually isnt efficient if you dont get the drone to latch on just as the other drone is leaving, if you get them to pair up just after the other drone arrives you lose quite a lot of time. The drone would have made the trip already if you didnt spam the click onto the patch! The closer mining is instantly negated.

This is to say, ive had much earlier pool put downs by putting each drone to their own mineral patch first, further or closer.

The game just to be clear automatically assigns to drones latch on to the patch and will jump if the position is occupied. although 16 drones on the patches is regarded as the most efficient its not the most mineral income. 3 drones on far patches and 2 drones on close is and they indefinitely lock on as you give the drone NO where to go and dont get the unlinking of the drone.

When you do this right you give the computer NO chance to jump patches as every single patch is locked. this is shown when you only have the one patch left and you have 20 drones on 1 patch . .why dont they bounce around . . because they cant!

for me and for what ive noticed over the 10000's of games ive played rallying the drones to their own patch, prioritising the closest one to the larva spawn and then the closest patch to the base THEN trying to get them to rally Just after the last drone leaves is the most efficient way to set up early game mineral collection and be consistent


This guy deserves mention or a quote in the OP.
Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
August 08 2014 17:52 GMT
#47
On August 08 2014 12:14 althaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 10:10 GiveMeCake wrote:
I can't see 50 minerals or even 7 seconds making a real difference in a game. The only difference may be in extreme cheese (7 pool, 11 11 rax, 2 gate proxy, cannon rush, etc) where games last 4 minutes long. If you're anal about timings it can have a placebo-like effect I guess?

It's not going to get you ahead in workers because you should already be making workers with 100% uptime or 95% uptime in the early game anyway. Zerg is limited by larva in the beginning so you're not going to get ahead there either.

Scouting is actually much more important, as is perfect chrono, injects, and mules.
With that said, yeah if it doesn't hurt and you've got all other aspects of the game down pat then why not?



Below Masters being extremely precise with your timings will be extremely effective. So effective that you won't be below masters for very long at all. Even at low masters, I would expect to win a game (or gain an insurmountable advantage) with any timing I use if I I hit it correctly and don't f*** up my micro. I have won matches against players with good macro and better micro than I purely from being ~10 seconds ahead.

Of course, the longer a game goes the less 10 seconds matter, but you can get that 10 second advantage REALLY early and although this one mostly only applies to early game and taking bases, you can repeatedly grab an advantage so that you are further ahead.

EDIT: Of course, if everybody is doing it (eg: the pro level), then you won't get any advantage - but if you don't do it you will lose, which is often considered sub-optimal in Starcraft.


10 seconds are only gamechanging if one or both players go for very early aggression. if both are opening up for a longer game, it wont make much of a difference.
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
Radicalness
Profile Joined September 2011
United States271 Posts
August 09 2014 05:24 GMT
#48
Good read. This is something I had wondered about. Microing workers is still good practice for APM and micro in general even if you don't care about the few extra minerals though
The Devil Terran - The Ambitious Terran - The Towel Terran - The Macro Master Terran - The Tyrant
varsovie
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada326 Posts
August 09 2014 20:51 GMT
#49
On August 08 2014 15:41 GiveMeCake wrote:
Show nested quote +
do you really think being at the enemies base 10 seconds earlier makes no difference? assume hellion harass vs protoss, 10 sec earlier and he doesnt get that forcefield > dead workers > win game


I believe the difference is so minimal that it would not decide whether you won the game or not. What hellion timing are you thinking of that would strike before the sentry had enough energy to FF?

Again, I'm still waiting for those replays showing worker stacking and split second timing being the deciding factor.


Any "early" pool where zerg pop 4 lings to try to catch the SCV building the CC on the low ground, often those are at 1 or 2 zergling attack + SCV position randomness. So yeah that pool or cc 6 second earlier is a huge deal.
Bulugulu
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel250 Posts
August 09 2014 21:52 GMT
#50
Thanks for the analysis, 50 minerals is a big deal early game since it snowballs and affects early defense as well.
Could you make an analysis of players pulling ther mules before their last "wasted" trip, and how much that actually saves?
“Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”
MrTortoise
Profile Joined January 2011
1388 Posts
August 18 2014 17:30 GMT
#51
this is cool could you do an analysis on minerals lost based on a failed pairing please :D

my drones seem to spend more tiem messing about when i start trying to optomise so i woder how many faied pairings before you negate the 50 advantage :D
Artisian
Profile Joined October 2010
United States115 Posts
August 18 2014 17:50 GMT
#52
Beautiful math.

Thanks, I enjoyed the read.
Supply is a conspiracy against me...
Trustworthy-Tony
Profile Joined March 2014
Tanzania187 Posts
August 18 2014 18:47 GMT
#53
My favorite way of explaining the actual (not mental) significance of worker-pairing is the timing of a 12 Rax on Xel'naga Caverns. Benchmarks: really good worker-pairing 1:33, standard good worker-pairing 1:34, if you dont worker-pair but still make rax exactly when you have money and still pick which mineral patch the scv goes to (not to pair, but to make sure they dont bounce around) 1:37.
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