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France7248 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/13570446982
Thank you for your feedback on the current season maps. After checking out the initial games being played on the new maps and considering the changes that we have lined up for the upcoming balance patch, we agree with popular community and pro players suggestions that some map spawn locations need adjusting. We’ll be looking to make the following changes:
1. Deadwing LE horizontal spawns disabled.
2. Foxtrot Labs LE diagonal spawns only.
In addition to these spawn location changes, we’ll be updating the map description text on these maps to offer details on the spawning locations. We’ll be trying to make these changes along with the balance patch soon. Thank you.
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Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though.
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Noooooooooooooooooo.
Still 100% Tempests and Soul train vs Zerg in horizontal positions 
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On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though.
And this, lol.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Solar is salty somewhere.
Well, better late than never. ;/
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Really happy with those changes ! I wasn't part of the protoss players who would rush Tempest in close spawns on deadwing ...
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On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though.
Tank drops OP! But I play Marine Tank on that map. God it's so much more fun than Widow Mines. Manually targetting the Banelings and watching them go BOOM.
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Shame. I enjoyed building a proxy stargate in my natural 
At least 8 basing is guaranteed to be easy now!
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On July 24 2014 02:40 Universum wrote:
Really happy with those changes ! I wasn't part of the protoss players who would rush Tempest in close spawns on deadwing ...
Lol you missed out man, it was fun while it lasted.
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no more tempest shenanigans for me
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Well Deadwing LE X-spawn in TvZ is not a fun story either I guess 
Predicting around 80% for Zerg on that map when X-spawning, but I guess that is what vetos are for =D
However, I as a Terran player like the new maps in general
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On July 24 2014 03:55 Glorfindel! wrote:Well Deadwing LE X-spawn in TvZ is not a fun story either I guess Predicting around 80% for Zerg on that map when X-spawning, but I guess that is what vetos are for =D However, I as a Terran player like the new maps in general
New maps are really good for Terran IMO. Lots of choke points for widow mines and lots of dead air space for Vikings to shoot from.
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I'm surprised there were any zergs that played Deadwing.
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Canada8159 Posts
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On July 24 2014 04:40 Tuczniak wrote:
I'm surprised there were any zergs that played Deadwing.
Well now that horizontal spawns will be gone I believe Z players will enjoy the map as you can take 4 bases more easily now. Right now horizontal spawns are just stupid because of that '' rush lane '' and very close potential third (Not just because of Tempest Shenanigans). I think it will become a very good Z macro map, if they survive the '' cheese '' phase very early game.
EDIT: I misread and thought Deadwing would be cross spawn only
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On July 24 2014 02:42 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though. Tank drops OP! But I play Marine Tank on that map. God it's so much more fun than Widow Mines. Manually targetting the Banelings and watching them go BOOM.
You know you can manually target mines too right? It just takes quicker mircro
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8751 Posts
OMG plz also fix the rest of the glowing bugs
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On July 24 2014 05:06 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 02:42 geokilla wrote:On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though. Tank drops OP! But I play Marine Tank on that map. God it's so much more fun than Widow Mines. Manually targetting the Banelings and watching them go BOOM. You know you can manually target mines too right? It just takes quicker mircro
Doesn't work the same tho. All your tank will focus the same pack of baneling with quick shift rights clic on them. WM have a way sorter radius and there is no way to really focus manually each of them. + Tank are good to hold the Z army a couple of second so you have more time to split, while you have absolutly no holders with biomine.
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Deadwing was a given. What exactly is wrong with Foxtrot?
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Don't understand the foxtrot change.
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On July 24 2014 05:18 Mozdk wrote:
Deadwing was a given. What exactly is wrong with Foxtrot?
There was never vertical spawns to begin with, but horizontal spawns were completely different layouts of your base and your expansions, plus another few imbalances.
Thank you Blizzard, the changes were much needed.
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On July 24 2014 05:23 Soke wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:18 Mozdk wrote:
Deadwing was a given. What exactly is wrong with Foxtrot? There was never vertical spawns to begin with, but horizontal spawns were completely different layouts of your base and your expansions, plus another few imbalances. Thank you Blizzard, the changes were much needed.
Well that's exactly what was nice in foxtrot labs either you would spawn with a delayed third because of rocks or a dangerous natural for the same reason (rocks) and you knew there was a high chance the situation would be the opposite for your opponent. That made for quite a different way to play, but i must have missed something :/ if Blizzard changed it, it must have been really imba...
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seeing some players XvT getting DEMOLISHED in pro games seems helped, it was unplayable vs tanks
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On July 24 2014 05:18 Mozdk wrote:
Deadwing was a given. What exactly is wrong with Foxtrot?
On July 24 2014 05:22 TheFish7 wrote: Don't understand the foxtrot change.
As i heared in a few casts and said by a few pros this maps seems AMAZING on cross but near to broken on some spawns in some matchups.
i cant give much detail cause my skill is so bad xD but there was so many pros saying its even worse then deadwing that it has to be something
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Well that is good that they changed these maps. It is unfortunate that some tournament games were effected beforehand by some of the imbalances.
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Does somebody know when those changes will be in effect ? i'd hate to scout uselessly 
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On July 24 2014 05:14 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 24 2014 02:42 geokilla wrote:On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though. Tank drops OP! But I play Marine Tank on that map. God it's so much more fun than Widow Mines. Manually targetting the Banelings and watching them go BOOM. You know you can manually target mines too right? It just takes quicker mircro Doesn't work the same tho. All your tank will focus the same pack of baneling with quick shift rights clic on them. WM have a way sorter radius and there is no way to really focus manually each of them. + Tank are good to hold the Z army a couple of second so you have more time to split, while you have absolutly no holders with biomine.
If you dont stagger your tanks at all they will just fire on the same banelings and before they can shoot again the ling/bling will close on the army. The same goes for mines, you have to stagger them so that you can keep auto targeting as the banes come through. I'm not sure what you mean by tanks being good at holding the zerg army for a couple seconds; if by that you mean that it keeps the lings back for a couple seconds as they kill the tanks before going after the bio again, then mines do the same thing because Zergs generally send seers with their army the kill the mines while they pass through. If you mean that the damage and splash of tanks means that Zergs have to be ready to fully commit to the attack before launching it, then again, mines do the same thing because of their tremendous splash damage and damage output.
Couple of that with the mass of tanks you need to be able to trade cost effectively on creep, the longer siege time, the longer build time, super fast mutas who can be wreaking havoc in your base and still be back for the fight if you take too long to engage (ie slowly leapfrogging tanks), then mines are clearly a superior choice to add to the army composition than tanks in virtually any given situation.
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they should get rid of 3 spawn maps.
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On July 24 2014 05:39 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:14 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 05:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 24 2014 02:42 geokilla wrote:On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though. Tank drops OP! But I play Marine Tank on that map. God it's so much more fun than Widow Mines. Manually targetting the Banelings and watching them go BOOM. You know you can manually target mines too right? It just takes quicker mircro Doesn't work the same tho. All your tank will focus the same pack of baneling with quick shift rights clic on them. WM have a way sorter radius and there is no way to really focus manually each of them. + Tank are good to hold the Z army a couple of second so you have more time to split, while you have absolutly no holders with biomine. + Show Spoiler +If you dont stagger your tanks at all they will just fire on the same banelings and before they can shoot again the ling/bling will close on the army. The same goes for mines, you have to stagger them so that you can keep auto targeting as the banes come through. I'm not sure what you mean by tanks being good at holding the zerg army for a couple seconds; if by that you mean that it keeps the lings back for a couple seconds as they kill the tanks before going after the bio again, then mines do the same thing because Zergs generally send seers with their army the kill the mines while they pass through. If you mean that the damage and splash of tanks means that Zergs have to be ready to fully commit to the attack before launching it, then again, mines do the same thing because of their tremendous splash damage and damage output.
Couple of that with the mass of tanks you need to be able to trade cost effectively on creep, the longer siege time, the longer build time, super fast mutas who can be wreaking havoc in your base and still be back for the fight if you take too long to engage (ie slowly leapfrogging tanks), then mines are clearly a superior choice to add to the army composition than tanks in virtually any given situation.
He was just saying that you can reliably focus fire banes with tanks, which is true.
You cannot reliably aim widow mines due to short range and lockon timer resetting every time you give them a new order. The most you can do in most cases is burrow / unburrow micro to prevent them from getting tripped by 1 or 2 sacrificial lings.
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On July 24 2014 05:44 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:39 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 24 2014 05:14 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 05:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 24 2014 02:42 geokilla wrote:On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though. Tank drops OP! But I play Marine Tank on that map. God it's so much more fun than Widow Mines. Manually targetting the Banelings and watching them go BOOM. You know you can manually target mines too right? It just takes quicker mircro + Show Spoiler +Doesn't work the same tho. All your tank will focus the same pack of baneling with quick shift rights clic on them. WM have a way sorter radius and there is no way to really focus manually each of them. + Tank are good to hold the Z army a couple of second so you have more time to split, while you have absolutly no holders with biomine. If you dont stagger your tanks at all they will just fire on the same banelings and before they can shoot again the ling/bling will close on the army. The same goes for mines, you have to stagger them so that you can keep auto targeting as the banes come through. I'm not sure what you mean by tanks being good at holding the zerg army for a couple seconds; if by that you mean that it keeps the lings back for a couple seconds as they kill the tanks before going after the bio again, then mines do the same thing because Zergs generally send seers with their army the kill the mines while they pass through. If you mean that the damage and splash of tanks means that Zergs have to be ready to fully commit to the attack before launching it, then again, mines do the same thing because of their tremendous splash damage and damage output. Couple of that with the mass of tanks you need to be able to trade cost effectively on creep, the longer siege time, the longer build time, super fast mutas who can be wreaking havoc in your base and still be back for the fight if you take too long to engage (ie slowly leapfrogging tanks), then mines are clearly a superior choice to add to the army composition than tanks in virtually any given situation. He was just saying that you can reliably focus fire banes with tanks, which is true. You cannot reliably aim widow mines due to short range and lockon timer resetting every time you give them a new order. The most you can do in most cases is burrow / unburrow micro to prevent them from getting tripped by 1 or 2 sacrificial lings.
Yeah its definitely way easier with tanks, no doubt. But mines are still a way better unit so it doesn't really make sense to play marine tank regardless of that.
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Ah, pity. I enjoyed horizontal spawns on Foxtrot...
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At last, at last. While you're at it, you could fix the numerous colossi glitches of Foxtrot Labs (ask Uvantak if you want him to show you how to do it).
It's good though because it shows Blizzard is more and more enclined to answering community and pro scene feedback. I take it as a really positive sign.
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Doesnt seem to be in effect on EU yet. I just had a game with horizontal spawns on deathwing.
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On July 24 2014 08:11 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
Doesnt seem to be in effect on EU yet. I just had a game with horizontal spawns on deathwing.
They're getting clumped with the widowmine/thor/timewarp patch.
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who needs variety anyway...
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On July 24 2014 05:39 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:14 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 05:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On July 24 2014 02:42 geokilla wrote:On July 24 2014 02:31 Genome852 wrote:
Won't stop me from tank dropping zerg on deadwing every game lalala
Good changes though. Tank drops OP! But I play Marine Tank on that map. God it's so much more fun than Widow Mines. Manually targetting the Banelings and watching them go BOOM. You know you can manually target mines too right? It just takes quicker mircro Doesn't work the same tho. All your tank will focus the same pack of baneling with quick shift rights clic on them. WM have a way sorter radius and there is no way to really focus manually each of them. + Tank are good to hold the Z army a couple of second so you have more time to split, while you have absolutly no holders with biomine. If you dont stagger your tanks at all they will just fire on the same banelings and before they can shoot again the ling/bling will close on the army. The same goes for mines, you have to stagger them so that you can keep auto targeting as the banes come through. I'm not sure what you mean by tanks being good at holding the zerg army for a couple seconds; if by that you mean that it keeps the lings back for a couple seconds as they kill the tanks before going after the bio again, then mines do the same thing because Zergs generally send seers with their army the kill the mines while they pass through. If you mean that the damage and splash of tanks means that Zergs have to be ready to fully commit to the attack before launching it, then again, mines do the same thing because of their tremendous splash damage and damage output. Couple of that with the mass of tanks you need to be able to trade cost effectively on creep, the longer siege time, the longer build time, super fast mutas who can be wreaking havoc in your base and still be back for the fight if you take too long to engage (ie slowly leapfrogging tanks), then mines are clearly a superior choice to add to the army composition than tanks in virtually any given situation.
Tanks don't do overkill, so if you shiftclic 4/5 banelings, they will probably all be dead.
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On July 24 2014 09:57 JessicaSc2 wrote:
who needs variety anyway...
Please Jessica, I know it must be painful to be told "your map as it stood was not suited for competitive play", like it must be painful for the mother of a mentally crippled child to be told the truth by a physician, but balance and gameplay issues on horizontal spawns were blatant. Variety is welcome but must not come at the price of a fair competitive environment.
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On July 24 2014 10:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:Please Jessica, I know it must be painful to be told "your map as it stood was not suited for competitive play", like it must be painful for the mother of a mentally crippled child to be told the truth by a physician, but balance and gameplay issues on horizontal spawns were blatant. Variety is welcome but must not come at the price of a fair competitive environment.
So blatant that no one noticed them until the map got on ladder? Please.
The only map that has been reasonably decent for terran now has been thoroughly nerfed because some zergs cannot adapt.
Sigh.
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On July 24 2014 05:22 TheFish7 wrote:
Don't understand the foxtrot change.
I think the problem is that the gold base is much easier to take for one player than the other in horizontal spawns
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On July 24 2014 11:02 JessicaSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 10:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 24 2014 09:57 JessicaSc2 wrote:
who needs variety anyway... Please Jessica, I know it must be painful to be told "your map as it stood was not suited for competitive play", like it must be painful for the mother of a mentally crippled child to be told the truth by a physician, but balance and gameplay issues on horizontal spawns were blatant. Variety is welcome but must not come at the price of a fair competitive environment. So blatant that no one noticed them until the map got on ladder? Please. The only map that has been reasonably decent for terran now has been thoroughly nerfed because some zergs cannot adapt. Sigh.
Before going to ladder, these maps were not played by pros... now it's the case and i think they want map with balance not T/Z/P favored (just because the mapmacker is T/Z/P).
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I really liked deadwing horrizontal positions and now its just another map that both sides go to super macro mode.
That game of Taeja vs Solar was really good because it played out in a non standard way, it was something new and exciting although I would assume that Tempest mostly was the reason for the change :D that thing is such an annoyance early game and when its built right next to go makes you wanna go QXC on your keyboard
when does this and mine buff go live?
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On July 24 2014 15:23 Scoobers wrote:
when does this and mine buff go live?
By the end of the week.
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On July 24 2014 15:33 Faust852 wrote:By the end of the week.
I kind of still hope they change their mind and buff tank and thor in TvZ so we dont see mines... Then again Protoss needs those mines to scare them so theyre forced to stay more honest in PvT
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all maps right now are good for terran (compared to all seasons in hots before) this is blizzards attempt to get some more race stats around 50%.
Terran right now with lets say the maps of season 2 hots would just get wrecked every game...
im not a big fan of balancing by maps...
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On July 24 2014 15:51 KOtical wrote:
all maps right now are good for terran (compared to all seasons in hots before) this is blizzards attempt to get some more race stats around 50%.
Terran right now with lets say the maps of season 2 hots would just get wrecked every game...
im not a big fan of balancing by maps...
There is a huge patch coming up soon dude.
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On July 24 2014 15:51 KOtical wrote:
all maps right now are good for terran (compared to all seasons in hots before) this is blizzards attempt to get some more race stats around 50%.
Terran right now with lets say the maps of season 2 hots would just get wrecked every game...
im not a big fan of balancing by maps...
Brood War was balanced by maps for like 10 years. It works fine.
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I'm curious about the instantaneous reaction to Deadwing's horizontal spawns. Terrans had to put up with over two seasons of Blink builds. Why shouldn't other races have to put up with very strong new Terran builds for months as they work to figure out a viable response? I hope I don't need to remind anyone that Blink wasn't just OK, it was very strong.
Usually people jump all over the "let pros figure out a response even if it takes a year" option. I haven't seen enough games on Deadwing, but is it really so impossible that Zergs will figure out a way to play that map? If we give them six months?
On July 25 2014 03:58 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 15:51 KOtical wrote:
all maps right now are good for terran (compared to all seasons in hots before) this is blizzards attempt to get some more race stats around 50%.
Terran right now with lets say the maps of season 2 hots would just get wrecked every game...
im not a big fan of balancing by maps... Brood War was balanced by maps for like 10 years. It works fine.
There are definitely some disadvantages to balancing by maps. It's an imprecise art. Take Blink Stalker all-ins - the only way to balance that through map design also made it more difficult to scout in TvP.
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On July 25 2014 03:58 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 15:51 KOtical wrote:
all maps right now are good for terran (compared to all seasons in hots before) this is blizzards attempt to get some more race stats around 50%.
Terran right now with lets say the maps of season 2 hots would just get wrecked every game...
im not a big fan of balancing by maps... Brood War was balanced by maps for like 10 years. It works fine.
I really wish people would stop using this example, starcraft2 isn't brood war and many things, if not all, can't be balanced by maps in SC2.
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1. Deadwing LE horizontal spawns disabled.
Is this not implemented? I still face ppl on horizontal spawns, can't say i dislike it tho
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8751 Posts
On July 25 2014 16:17 19Meavis93 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 03:58 DinoMight wrote:On July 24 2014 15:51 KOtical wrote:
all maps right now are good for terran (compared to all seasons in hots before) this is blizzards attempt to get some more race stats around 50%.
Terran right now with lets say the maps of season 2 hots would just get wrecked every game...
im not a big fan of balancing by maps... Brood War was balanced by maps for like 10 years. It works fine. I really wish people would stop using this example, starcraft2 isn't brood war and many things, if not all, can't be balanced by maps in SC2.
We don't know if it's a limitation of the game. It's the community that has prevented SC2 from being balanced by maps so far. Players and fans have to be willing to put up with longer periods of imbalance and have to be able to use a map that seems imbalanced for a full season (and not let it just get vetoed every match). If people can't accept those things, then they have to accept having a more static and stale game.
Knee-jerk reactions happen because a new map comes along with terrain that massively benefits a prevailing strategy/build/tactic on only one side of a matchup. This isn't fair. The idea is to make the disadvantaged race play another style or build where that change is irrelevant, or figure out a new tactic for nullifying the advantage, or invent a whole new style or build, and then some of that knowledge can be used on other maps too and the disadvantaged race actually comes out ahead because they were forced to innovate and improve. If players aren't willing to go through the struggle and fans aren't willing to watch it then there's no point.
Players were throwing in the towel way too early, especially in the context of a veto system that means the impact on competitive play would have been minimal anyway.
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On July 24 2014 15:23 Scoobers wrote:
I really liked deadwing horrizontal positions and now its just another map that both sides go to super macro mode.
That game of Taeja vs Solar was really good because it played out in a non standard way, it was something new and exciting although I would assume that Tempest mostly was the reason for the change :D that thing is such an annoyance early game and when its built right next to go makes you wanna go QXC on your keyboard
when does this and mine buff go live?
No the reason is because deadwing on horizontal positions was incredibly imbalanced in Terrans favor vs zerg, can parade push with tanks for a free win on that map vs zerg. Solar prob wishes those changes happened before IEM.
QUOTE]On July 26 2014 00:09 Skynx wrote:
1. Deadwing LE horizontal spawns disabled.
Is this not implemented? I still face ppl on horizontal spawns, can't say i dislike it tho [/QUOTE]
Patch is not out yet, Think they said 10:30 pst for NA. Not sure about EU/KR times.
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Why is there so many 4 player maps this season and not 2 player maps?. Very strange. Any feedback would be great
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On July 26 2014 01:48 StorKK wrote:Why is there so many 4 player maps this season and not 2 player maps?. Very strange. Any feedback would be great
Diversity, allowing for more options in mapmaking, less prone to split maps, allows for more metagaming opportunities.
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i see, so overall they wanna se more macrogames?
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On July 26 2014 01:48 StorKK wrote:Why is there so many 4 player maps this season and not 2 player maps?. Very strange. Any feedback would be great
Still less than the average BW map pool!
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On July 26 2014 01:56 StorKK wrote:
i see, so overall they wanna se more macrogames?
They want to see more interesting macrogames.
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EPT
