EPTI'm not sure what fixation David Kim has with the widow mine to constantly change it, why can't he try something new in a test map with something like tanks that almost everyone agrees would be neat to see them not suck.
Agree.
Call to Action: July 11 Balance Testing - Page 8
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MadSoju
Canada19 Posts
Agree. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On July 13 2014 12:03 MadSoju wrote: I hope the balance team at Blizzard is reading this thread, and what people are saying about tanks. Something needs to be done about the tanks. Agree. STOPPPPIT! JUST STOPIT! -mikeditka seriously tho - enough about tanks.. you cant use them in tvz vs ling/bling/muta unless they fix mutas.. so stop talking about it..all this nonsense about tanks is gonna make them do another retarded random buff that won't help anything.. they have to get back to at least 1 unit composition that can actually trade in a balanced fashion (which we have seen in bio/mine, not bio/tank). pls and thx enough w the tank cry | ||
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Anoteros
44 Posts
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RoninColt
United States18 Posts
On July 13 2014 12:28 DomeGetta wrote: STOPPPPIT! JUST STOPIT! -mikeditka seriously tho - enough about tanks.. you cant use them in tvz vs ling/bling/muta unless they fix mutas.. so stop talking about it..all this nonsense about tanks is gonna make them do another retarded random buff that won't help anything.. they have to get back to at least 1 unit composition that can actually trade in a balanced fashion (which we have seen in bio/mine, not bio/tank). pls and thx enough w the tank cry I really don't see them buffing tanks. David Kim obviously wants see the Window Mine being used. I mean after all it is a HoTs unit, why would they buff an older unit to be used and make the mine even more less common. | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
On July 13 2014 12:58 RoninColt wrote: I really don't see them buffing tanks. David Kim obviously wants see the Window Mine being used. I mean after all it is a HoTs unit, why would they buff an older unit to be used and make the mine even more less common. ' That's some pretty stupid marketing IMO if they buff failed HOTS units just so they are used more and can pat them self's on the back and say they did a good dev job. I rather see them fix core Issues rather than buffing crap just for the sake it's a failed new unit poorly designed and they want to see more use out of it. Like the useless Oracal Buff cuz they wanted to see it in late game, dumb moves like that is what makes balance horrid in the long run. | ||
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rEdEEmEd
Canada68 Posts
zerg carapace upgrades adding armor to buildings, the best fix to zerg match up | ||
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RoninColt
United States18 Posts
On July 13 2014 13:06 LingBlingBling wrote: ' That's some pretty stupid marketing IMO if they buff failed HOTS units just so they are used more and can pat them self's on the back and say they did a good dev job. I rather see them fix core Issues rather than buffing crap just for the sake it's a failed new unit poorly designed and they want to see more use out of it. Like the useless Oracal Buff cuz they wanted to see it in late game, dumb moves like that is what makes balance horrid in the long run. Yea, but it's pretty clear that's what he wants. Why else would he come up with the Medivac buff? Drop play has decreased sense players have adapted to defending them better, and he's said in interviews this is the style of play him and viewers like to see. The way I see it is he's trying to balance the game to play out in his own image. | ||
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TiberiusAk
United States122 Posts
On July 13 2014 12:03 MadSoju wrote: I hope the balance team at Blizzard is reading this thread, and what people are saying about tanks. Something needs to be done about the tanks. Agree. What if the tank itself isn't the problem though? As people have said before, tanks are fine in TvT. As someone else said, tanks would be fine in TvZ, but they get tactically wrecked by mutas. A large muta cloud can move in, pick them off, pull out and regen, repeat. So really the key to making tanks viable in TvZ is to buff Terran's anti-muta capabilities (or nerf muta regen, but...ZvP/ZvZ). The Thor and mine buffs are a stealth buff to tank play in TvZ (but maybe not big enough). At least tanks are still the go-to vs zerg missile style, and we do see mech games vs zerg now and then. What about TvP? It's like TvZ only moreso. It's probably too hard to fix before LotV because the best unit against the tank-murderers (Ghosts) are on a different tech path and are just as gas intensive, so we probably won't see a tank/ghost composition unless the Terran has basically won the game, and probably not even then since bio is still pretty good when you're winning.  A lot of the previously suggested buffs to tanks (e.g. damage vs shields) won't really make tanks viable as long as chargelots can reliably get on top of them and immortals only take 10 damage from tanks while also doing 50 damage a shot. Making the tank cheaper/less supply/build faster is nice but I'd kind of like if tanks actually killed some stuff before being killed by an immortal (or by it's buddy tank a few steps away). An HP buff would be better, but that might be too good in TvZ/TvT....maybe an HP buff plus an armor nerf? Seems a little dubious. Tanks have already been buffed once damage wise. The problem isn't that tanks can't kill Protoss/Zerg generally. The problem is there are certain Protoss/Zerg units that completely murder tanks, and Terran can't stop that from happening once the opponent decides to use them. If I were going to experiment with "tank" buffs in TvP I might try: 1) Changing immortal shots to be projectiles. PDD now increases tank survivability too. And good luck landing feedback on a PDD behind sieged tanks! 2) Buff mines to help deter chargelots--oh wait... (Seriously though, weren't mines and vultures critical to supporting tank play in BW TvP?) Any other suggestions for non-tank "tank" buffs? | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
If they changed the widow mine and the mutalisk, tanks would be viable once again. | ||
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HallofPain
Japan16 Posts
Increase Immortal's health or shield to make up for it if needed. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On July 13 2014 12:03 MadSoju wrote: I hope the balance team at Blizzard is reading this thread, and what people are saying about tanks. Something needs to be done about the tanks. Agree. The Widow Mine is the unit that is perfect for a TvP and TvZ adjustment because it helps both those matchups fairly equally. (well not equally but close enough) whereas you could the buff the tank all day everyday and it would still be a niche buff in TvP. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On July 13 2014 15:43 HallofPain wrote: Just remove the freaking hardened shield ability, everybody knows it's blatantly stupid. Increase Immortal's health or shield to make up for it if needed. Yes - there are very easy fixes, only not considered ATM: 1 - buff Viking - vs both Light units and Shields 2 - buff Tank range - up to 14 (see how it goes, Marines are chargeable enough in TvT, there won't be a big change, but will allow Terran to "shell away" Nexus even with MSC PO casted, in other words - puts a clock on Protoss passive defensive play) 3 - nerf something Protoss has - maybe Tempests, maybe Voidrays IDK, those seem to have enough "maneuvering space" for nerfs 4 - reduce Unsiege (yes, unsiegeing animation time, but keep the siege-ing the same) - it will mean you'll still lose your tanks if not sieged up on time (caught offguard), only you might save a bit more, (however won't matter in TvT much cause tanks either way are moving slow), but it would help vs Immortals In general anything that would change the army vs army play rather than going back to HotS mine 1.0 which obliterated mineral lines in 2 shots.. Speaking of which - that is a bit funky to "boil over": Faust's post says mines will be even worse vs Probe-line from the beginning of HotS (which I find it scary, and bad for the gameplay, lol), whilest the reddit "meme" says it will be a "meh" change.. w.t.f. But yes - if it indeed does bring Zoo Zoo Terran back - it's bad for the gameplay.. PERIOD | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On July 13 2014 16:36 VArsovskiSC wrote: Yes - there are very easy fixes, only not considered ATM: 1 - buff Viking - vs both Light units and Shields 2 - buff Tank range - up to 14 (see how it goes, Marines are chargeable enough in TvT, there won't be a big change, but will allow Terran to "shell away" Nexus even with MSC PO casted, in other words - puts a clock on Protoss passive defensive play) 3 - nerf something Protoss has - maybe Tempests, maybe Voidrays IDK, those seem to have enough "maneuvering space" for nerfs In general anything that would change the army vs army play rather than going back to HotS mine 1.0 which obliterated mineral lines in 2 shots.. Now - this is a bit funky to "boil over": Faust's post says mines will be even worse vs Probe-line from the beginning of HotS (which I find it scary, and bad for the gameplay, lol), whilest the reddit "meme" says it will be a "meh" change.. w.t.f. But yes - if it indeed does bring Zoo Zoo Terran back - it's bad for the gameplay.. PERIOD Whats going to happen is exactly the same thing that happened to oracles and speed medivacs is that they get used very heavily for about 2 months then everyone is used to them so then the harass is more of a niche then a standard. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On July 13 2014 16:41 Adreme wrote: Whats going to happen is exactly the same thing that happened to oracles and speed medivacs is that they get used very heavily for about 2 months then everyone is used to them so then the harass is more of a niche then a standard. MAYBE.. IDK.. - still the point is - better to prefer that the both opposing sides are in a good spot, rather than both being in a bad one.. It's just no good to see a good percentage of games instantly end at the 10 minute mark in one swoop move.. AND - added a 4th option - think that one might adress some of the problems too.. Regardless - there are other ways to do it rather than buff the harassment potential (which already is far too good) for Terran.. That was my point though.. AND - also - no-one, literally NO-ONE has tried/tested the new Hellbat buff vs Protoss.. And even if HBs themselves are bad vs P - no-one tested them in combo with WMs.. We don't even know how HB/WM opener fairs vs Protoss, and yet we buff it further.. Lest to say that it's already game-winning timing vs Zerg | ||
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HallofPain
Japan16 Posts
Those gigantic junks cost 6 food 300/200 and just get slaughtered by something 4 food 250/100? Does Toss really need something that hard counters Thor anyway? Thors are not hard to deal with at all without immortals. | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
On July 13 2014 16:51 HallofPain wrote: What about thors? Those gigantic junks cost 6 food 300/200 and just get slaughtered by something 4 food 250/100? Does Toss really need something that hard counters Thor anyway? Thors are not hard to deal with at all without immortals. Terran will mech all day long if P does not have Immortal. Only this one unit can deal vs mech not pretty bad. | ||
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HallofPain
Japan16 Posts
In TvP Mech's only strength becomes its weakness as well cuz they can't even fight Toss head up. | ||
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bosshd
Belgium72 Posts
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On July 13 2014 16:51 HallofPain wrote: What about thors? Those gigantic junks cost 6 food 300/200 and just get slaughtered by something 4 food 250/100? Does Toss really need something that hard counters Thor anyway? Thors are not hard to deal with at all without immortals. OMG, I quoted the wrong guy in my previous post lol.. I was refering to the other guy who said "is there another way to buff tanks ?" or sth like that on the finishing sentence in the post.. There IS a workaround for everything though.. the point is it might make things more complicated or so: Considering like a "small" fix: 1 - Thors take only 66% magic damage (i.e. negate 1/3) 2 - Immortal shots are now magical.. Things like that can easily fix the situation (though not good myself about those cause not good at the editor, lol, not good to know if those things are possible, cause pretty sure that they balance the game out through the editor )BUT - the key I think is that mech's weakness isn't cause of how mech works, but rather cause of how Protoss works.. Protoss (as opposed to Zerg for ex.) - have a VERY STRONG BACKDOOR.. That being said - mech problem is the harassment which will come in the form of multiple Zealot/Storm/DT-warps/drops.. Lest that's what happened the last time mech was used in a TvP (think it was MMA vs HerO, HerO harassed the sh*t out of him that game, but he was also caught offguard with Tanks unsieged at the middle of the map, so I/we DK) Most of the time I got to play mech I was facing air units like Voidrays and Carriers, and as Protoss if I see Terran go mech I do the same.., so.. IDK AND - another relatively important point is that Mech is DEPENDABLE on the map layout overall | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
On July 13 2014 17:23 HallofPain wrote: Mech's strength is straight up engagement, weakness is mobility and anti-air. In TvP Mech's only strength becomes its weakness as well cuz they can't even fight Toss head up. Dude.. mech trashes gateway units. the problem is the immortal. I would much rather have a 300hp / 50shield immortal that costs a little less and does 30plain dmg, Or perhaps Gatway units produce 5-10sec faster than warpgate so you pretty much have to engage and wear mech down instead of just a moving into everything. Or something like tanks do 70dmg to massive like in broodwar. whatever. The game does not feel funny, and i've stopped playing for a reason. Im aware of the hypocrasy of i've stopped playing, but havent stopped discussing the game, well its just my honest opinion. Period | ||
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