On July 09 2014 22:44 Tenks wrote:
Haha this thread is nuts. Anyone who thinks even mid/low tier KeSPA A teamers are worse than EU superstars is absolutely out of their minds.

It's the NA effect

Veriol

Czech Republic502 Posts

July 09 2014 14:03 GMT

#44

On July 09 2014 22:44 Tenks wrote:
Haha this thread is nuts. Anyone who thinks even mid/low tier KeSPA A teamers are worse than EU superstars is absolutely out of their minds.

Yes they are. When even the A teamers or the guys who actually get to play in Proleague are struggling with foreigners. Two most recent - Kespa koreans - i remeber were Trap at MLG (where he lost even to mid tier foreigners) or Stork at HSC (who didnt even make it out of groups against foreigner). So dont tell me random guy named rare who barely made code A once is better than top tier foreigners who are consitently playing even against code S players.

Xoronius

Germany6362 Posts

July 09 2014 14:19 GMT

#45

On July 09 2014 22:44 Tenks wrote:
Haha this thread is nuts. Anyone who thinks even mid/low tier KeSPA A teamers are worse than EU superstars is absolutely out of their minds.

The kespa hype is getting ridiculos. RorO is top 10 in PL and didn't make top 16 in his DH, losing to a foreigner. Stork Didn't make playoffs in HSC, losing to multiple foreigners. And those are guys, who have much better results than rare in PL. Ofc. he is better than his community reputation says, but putting him on the level of Voritx and co is laughable.

Ofc. the original comment, who caused this whole debate, was insulting and unneccessary, but comments like this are not that much better.

Using GSL qualifiers as a metric is also a pretty poor example, since barely noone ever travels intercontinental to attend a qualifier. It's like saying "No korean ever won spanish Spanish EPS, so Spain is definitly superior to korea". Just to clarify: I'm not thinking, that a foreigner is close in akill to korean topcalss (soO, Zest and co.), but just assuming every korean pro is better than every foreigner is insulting as well.

Finally, to say something at the topic: Best of luck to rare in his future endeavours.

Tenks

United States3104 Posts

July 09 2014 14:28 GMT

#46

Stork lost to Snute, went 1-1 against Scarlett in HSC. Ultimately he lost the bo3 against Scarlett when it really mattered. Trap lost some pool matches (lets not forget the horrible times at MLG this last go around) then went on to win the tournament; taking out Scarlett in the process. Lets also say how MLG/HSC/DH formats aren't KeSPA's forte since the players are trained to play with the matchup already known a week ahead of time and they're doing it on the foreigner's home turf.

Prolet

United States37 Posts

July 09 2014 14:33 GMT

#47

Most progamers do not make THAT much money. If a foreigner looks at the possibility of qualifying for GSL, it does not make sense. You need to look at what your best chance of performing best in. This is so you can hopefully win some money and, more importantly, keep your contract and team.

1. The Code A qualifiers are ridiculously difficult. The competition is fierce.

2. Then you have to go through Code A and Code S, against players that are great at preparing for a single player on a designated map interval. Foreign tournaments do not really behave that way.

3. The GSL takes over two months from start to finish. That is a long time to be tied up in a single tournament. You really need to stay in Korea, get used to that environment. If you are in and out of Korea playing in other tournaments, you probably are not going to win a GSL.

4. You can argue on whether or not a foreigner can quality for Code A. Given they could quality, they would be hard pressed to beat the likes of Soulkey, Classic, Rain, True, SoO, Maru, etc.

5. If you win, you get over $60,0000. After that, the winnings drop of sharply. You can probably make the couple thousand lower ranked GSL players or more money in your home region, without the added difficulties previously mentioned. For Koreans, that is not the case. The competition is so fierce for them, it makes sense to spill over into EU and NA regions to have any hope of winning earnings. What chance do you think a foreigner has?

Veriol

Czech Republic502 Posts

July 09 2014 14:35 GMT

#48

On July 09 2014 23:28 Tenks wrote:
Stork lost to Snute, went 1-1 against Scarlett in HSC. Ultimately he lost the bo3 against Scarlett when it really mattered. Trap lost some pool matches (lets not forget the horrible times at MLG this last go around) then went on to win the tournament; taking out Scarlett in the process. Lets also say how MLG/HSC/DH formats aren't KeSPA's forte since the players are trained to play with the matchup already known a week ahead of time and they're doing it on the foreigner's home turf.

You just said we are out of our minds to consider foreigners to be on level of low tier (id almost say b-teamer since he played 5 games in proleague total and zero games this year) Kespa player. And now you are making excuses for mid tier regurals of proleague that its not their cup of tea to play in MLG or HSC. wow.

Xoronius

Germany6362 Posts

July 09 2014 14:38 GMT

#49

To compare players you need a metric both competed in. If you would use PL, I could say the same about it being an environment on koreans home turf in a format that no foreigner trains for. Except for the fact, that ThorZaIN, who was far from his best shape during his PL time and not a top foreigner at that point, managed to get the same record as rare on rares home turf.

Yakikorosu

1203 Posts

July 09 2014 14:45 GMT

#50

On July 09 2014 01:50 Gwavajuice wrote:
I think stephano after being eliminated in Ro32 managed to qualify back for next season, but declined and went back to europe.

Coming from ro32 he didn't go through the whole code A so I guess it doesn't really count?

Stephano was seeded directly into Code S (I think he replaced Polt when Polt left Korea), lost in Ro32, lost his Code A match, but then made it out of the U&D Matches (he was in a 4-person group and advanced in second place after beating Lure aka Billowy and Trust). But then he left Korea and didn't play in WCS KR which started next season.

So that's certainly a decent performance but he did not make it through the qualifiers into Code A (though I do remember GSL casters multiple times mentioning foreigners who got to the finals of their Code A qualifier bracket but then lost, including Artosis sometime in 2011 IIRC).

Without getting into the silly talent debate, I will say there is some truth to the point that KeSPA (original KeSPA, not Prime/MVP/IM) B-teamers are scary. I would think Pigbaby illustrates this amply.

Silvana

3713 Posts

July 09 2014 15:33 GMT

#51

On July 09 2014 23:03 Veriol wrote:

Show nested quote +

Guys it's obvious that Koreans are not perfect, of course they lose to foreigners sometimes. They point most people is trying to do is that, to qualify for Code A, a foreigner must beat a string of Koreans who are preparing for those matches. That's not the same as beating ONE Korean who attends a foreign tournament, and plays in a settling he/she is not used to.

If you are going to cherrypick results like that, then I can present you Pigbaby's case: Kespa B-teamer who wasn't even good to get fielded in PL matches goes to WCS AM and beats not only foreigners, but foreigner-koreans as well.

Also I'd like to know who are those top tier foreigners who are consistently playing against Code S players???

Xoronius

Germany6362 Posts

July 09 2014 16:30 GMT

#52

On July 10 2014 00:33 silvana wrote:

Show nested quote +

Noone consistently plays against Code S players, those are usually sticking to Code S and are, as I said earlier, better than every foreigner on the planet. Rare is not a Code S player either, though. The examples, which were given, were not cherry-picking but rather just the latest participation of kespa players internationally and thus the freshest Data. Cherry picking would be ranting about Bbyong not being able to beat AbomB at IEM. If you are asking about top foreigners; an example would be Bunny, who just advanced from a qualifier, beating YoDa, Patinece, Sleep (2-0 in PL) and Armani in a bracket, where Stork, Solar, Reality and Hurrincane also played.

Ands since GSL qualifiers are apperently so important to showcase, that foreigners are inferior: Since the beginning of WCS (so in 2013/2014) the following players have tried to qualify for Code A:
State, Artosis, cArn, Baralai, Whiplash, MalditoKyo. Hardly something, you could call a proper foreign representation.
State, who is the non korean nr. 86 on aligulac, was only one round short of qualifying twice during that time, so don't tell me, that getting one round further suddenly makes you better than the top foreign class. Just compare rares qualifying run (Center, oDin, Brain) with what Scarlett did at MLG (Life, DRG, Ragnarok), Snute at Ultra invitational (Hyun, First) or Vortix at Vasacast invitational (MMA, Stardust, Jjakji).

Anyway, I'm sorry to rare, to discuss this in his retirement thread, I'll stop doing it now.

Prev 1 2 3 All

Please or register to reply.

Live Events Refresh