EPTThe other maps are pretty fun though, I really like Merry Go Round as I have been looking forward to playing on a 3 player map on Ladder since Testbug.
New Ladder Maps for '14 Season 2 - Page 16
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
The other maps are pretty fun though, I really like Merry Go Round as I have been looking forward to playing on a 3 player map on Ladder since Testbug. | ||
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followZeRoX
Serbia1451 Posts
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On April 16 2014 23:46 JanDe wrote: I must say that new maps suck as hell. Even newkirk was better. Way to blow your 1000th post :b Nah but in all seriousness why do you think the maps are bad? What do you consider to be a good map? (Don't give examples of good maps i know all the maps, i'm a mapmaker, talk about the features) On April 16 2014 17:08 Cascade wrote: Love your graphics with the half transparent circles on the maps!  Oh my~ Thnk u :3 | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
Not sure about Merry go round. | ||
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followZeRoX
Serbia1451 Posts
On April 16 2014 23:46 JanDe wrote: I must say that new maps suck as hell. Even newkirk was better. Way to blow your 1000th post :b Nah but in all seriousness why do you think the maps are bad? What do you consider to be a good map? (Don't give examples of good maps i know all the maps, i'm a mapmaker, talk about the features) [/QUOTE] Why are you offended? I am sorry if you made some of these maps, it wasn't my intention to shit on your work at all. First, new maps are kinda made "urgent, blink allin omfg!11!1". And it sucks. (i am not protoss btw) King Sejong > I mean, wtf is this. So much alike Korhal, close expansions and wide open area for sieging opponent. Overgrowth is good! waystation>also, wtf, so weird designed map, 3rd is hard to take, easy to harras. Plus removals of decent maps like Yeonsu or Polar night (decent in comparison to this ones). Way to uncourage someone to ladder. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On April 17 2014 01:48 JanDe wrote: Why are you offended? I am sorry if you made some of these maps, it wasn't my intention to shit on your work at all. First, new maps are kinda made "urgent, blink allin omfg!11!1". And it sucks. (i am not protoss btw) King Sejong > I mean, wtf is this. So much alike Korhal, close expansions and wide open area for sieging opponent. Overgrowth is good! waystation>also, wtf, so weird designed map, 3rd is hard to take, easy to harras. Plus removals of decent maps like Yeonsu or Polar night (decent in comparison to this ones). Way to uncourage someone to ladder. He wasn't offended; he's a mapmaker looking for information as to what players feel makes for a "good" map. Very useful info for us mapmakers. I definitely agree with your overall assessment, though. King Sejong was NOT designed for ladder play; it was designed for a team league where specific player/race match-up preparation is key. Throwing two completely random players of unknown racial match-up on the map makes for utterly terrible games. Everything ends up a coin flip. I feel bad for the map's creator, since it's going to get labelled as a terrible map (I've even said it out of frustration) for being placed in an environment it wasn't meant to be used in. Waystation is just a continued demonstration on how Blizzard has zero clue how to make a decent competitive map, and probably never will figure it out. They couldn't get it right in SC:BW, WC:TFT, and now even in SC2. Yeonsu and Polar Night were (surprise) community-made maps that were (surprise again) designed specifically for ladder/singles-bracket tournament play. As a result, their only flaws were their susceptibility to blink, something which wasn't known to be excessively powerful at the time of their creation. | ||
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On April 17 2014 01:48 JanDe wrote: Why are you offended? I am sorry if you made some of these maps, it wasn't my intention to shit on your work at all. First, new maps are kinda made "urgent, blink allin omfg!11!1". And it sucks. (i am not protoss btw) King Sejong > I mean, wtf is this. So much alike Korhal, close expansions and wide open area for sieging opponent. Overgrowth is good! waystation>also, wtf, so weird designed map, 3rd is hard to take, easy to harras. Plus removals of decent maps like Yeonsu or Polar night (decent in comparison to this ones). Way to uncourage someone to ladder. Offended? No. As our lovely Caustic said i'm searching for feedback and ways to improve my own maps and give feedback to other mapmakers to improve theirs, that's why i asked about the features of the maps and not comparisons between maps like you just did between Sejong and Korhal District/Precinct, because a vertically symmetric map will be designed in a very different fashion than a rotational symmetric 2 players map even if they end up playing the same (That's the objective you want to achieve). Absolutes are no good, in mapmaking you can't really say that X is good or bad, because mapmaking is not a hard science, that's why it's useless for you to say X map is bad or Y is good, i have maps with lowground main bases and those maps are not inherently bad, in the same fashion i have other maps that are built around standard features and they are not good either, that's why i was asking you about what features you think are problematic for the new maps. | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
Really enjoying Overgrowth. Beautiful and fun map overall. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26462 Posts
Vetos exist after all, and we've seen actual good maps being taken out time and time again for no apparent reason other than variety for its own sake. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 17 2014 02:34 iamcaustic wrote: He wasn't offended; he's a mapmaker looking for information as to what players feel makes for a "good" map. Very useful info for us mapmakers. I definitely agree with your overall assessment, though. King Sejong was NOT designed for ladder play; it was designed for a team league where specific player/race match-up preparation is key. Throwing two completely random players of unknown racial match-up on the map makes for utterly terrible games. Everything ends up a coin flip. I feel bad for the map's creator, since it's going to get labelled as a terrible map (I've even said it out of frustration) for being placed in an environment it wasn't meant to be used in. Waystation is just a continued demonstration on how Blizzard has zero clue how to make a decent competitive map, and probably never will figure it out. They couldn't get it right in SC:BW, WC:TFT, and now even in SC2. Yeonsu and Polar Night were (surprise) community-made maps that were (surprise again) designed specifically for ladder/singles-bracket tournament play. As a result, their only flaws were their susceptibility to blink, something which wasn't known to be excessively powerful at the time of their creation. I don't know what's so wrong about King Sejong. It's a little too easy to get 3,4,5 bases imo, but there is no feature that would be out of the ordinary in any way... Don't know what you say is a coinflip on it. In comparison to ANY 3-5 spawn map, scouting is way better and the ease of expansions rather makes it too predictable. Waystation looks bad, but I gotta say that blizzard at least tries stuff and sometimes it works out decently (Alterzim; imbalanced but at least also different in this case). They have shown more than once that they are very capable of making your standard 08/15 maps (Antiga, Entombed, Derelicted, Newkirk...). They just don't want to, I guess. So despite all the justified shit they get for making maps like Waystation and (original) Daedalus, at least they still experiment with stuff. And for Yeonsu and Polar Night, blink allins were said to be extremely powerful since the HotS beta. That's not because maps are to blame, but yes, that's the reason why they now had to go. And Yeonsu on top of that proved to be extremly imbalanced (with 60% winrates of T and P against Z). | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On April 17 2014 04:39 Big J wrote: I don't know what's so wrong about King Sejong. It's a little too easy to get 3,4,5 bases imo, but there is no feature that would be out of the ordinary in any way... Don't know what you say is a coinflip on it. In comparison to ANY 3-5 spawn map, scouting is way better and the ease of expansions rather makes it too predictable. TvT, PvP, and TvP are what I'm looking at when I talk about coin flips. It is painfully hard to reliably scout for proxies, and the layout of the main/natural makes holding certain all-ins quite difficult, especially if you're not able to fully scout what your opponent is doing and keep an eye on their army. Terrans can elevator siege the main, with the only way to break it from multiple angles requiring you to take down the rocks, or walk around forever (I say this as a Terran). It's also just an insanely good Zerg map for TvZ. In a nutshell, all three Terran match-ups are a gong show on that map. On April 17 2014 04:39 Big J wrote: Waystation looks bad, but I gotta say that blizzard at least tries stuff and sometimes it works out decently (Alterzim; imbalanced but at least also different in this case). They have shown more than once that they are very capable of making your standard 08/15 maps (Antiga, Entombed, Derelicted, Newkirk...). They just don't want to, I guess. So despite all the justified shit they get for making maps like Waystation and (original) Daedalus, at least they still experiment with stuff. Every one of those map examples you gave had major design/balance issues. They managed to salvage Antiga and Entombed by disabling certain spawns (in the case of Antiga, even making it cross-only, so it was effectively a 2-spawn map). Blizzard is simply not good at making maps. Sure they experiment, but so do all of the community mapmakers. Waystation being a 2-in-1? That's been done by the community a number of times before (and even had such a map used in Proleague in the form of Korhal Sky Island). Blizzard's "experimentation" is creating poorly executed versions of community ideas. On April 17 2014 04:39 Big J wrote: And for Yeonsu and Polar Night, blink allins were said to be extremely powerful since the HotS beta. That's not because maps are to blame, but yes, that's the reason why they now had to go. And Yeonsu on top of that proved to be extremly imbalanced (with 60% winrates of T and P against Z). Blink was known to be strong since early HotS, yes, but not in the dominating form we've seen since then. Back then it was 1-base blink, which could (and still can) be held and punished. Yeonsu was published on January 24th, 2013. As for Yeonsu's ZvX balance, for TvZ in particular when you break down the stats to see who's winning against who, you'll find a lot of games consisting of Korean Terrans beating non-Korean Zergs. Considering how Yeonsu was actually a more balanced TvZ map, you'd expect to see this kind of trend thanks to numerous Korean Terrans populating WCS EU and WCS AM. I can't speak for PvZ, however. I'm not as knowledgeable regarding the professional level of that match up, since it's entirely irrelevant to the race I play. Any and all knowledge I have of the match-up is to help with my mapmaking. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
I can't speak for PvZ, however. I'm not as knowledgeable regarding the professional level of that match up, since it's entirely irrelevant to the race I play. Any and all knowledge I have of the match-up is to help with my mapmaking. It's flat out broken for ZvP, it's probably as bad as the early WoL blizzard maps. Which really is a shame, because it has some interesting things going for it. Honestly, trying to design fun, creative maps around the huge and ever increasing restrictions seems almost impossible. | ||
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
To sum up, king sejong (from the 2 sides), merry go round, overgrowth and way station on close positions are blinkable in the main... Anyone can confirm? | ||
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MidnightZL
Sweden203 Posts
1. King Sejong Station LE (I always love snowtheme and there's lot of room for cheesy proxyplay) 2. Overgrowth LE (Simple with a nice tileset and the option to go for gold and a good hard-to-take 3rd) 3. Merry Go Round LE (Cool with a 3 player map, and a very nice tileset as always when Team Crux making a map) 4. Waystation (I think it's cool and unique map that can either be a 2 or 4player map, since opponent always spawn diagonally, also this tilset is nice) | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
Oh, and by the way, after you make your 10th depot wall-off, you should start the turret ring for mutas - try a turret ring on King Sejon ahahahahah. I figure you're about 2k in minerals down trying to secure your natural and main... I'm 100 games into ladder this season so this hate has been building slowly. I'm not one to "unload" on maps unless i try them for a good period of time. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
![[image loading]](http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/rotary-engine-intro.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/3a/Merry_Go_Round.jpg/578px-Merry_Go_Round.jpg) | ||
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Grayson Carlyle
Canada219 Posts
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1gwA2Y2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lq87OwS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RcfvdHm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J3ezUiH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XfebKEP.png)
