Depth of Micro - Page 23

On November 01 2013 18:08 ejozl wrote:

I didn't mean the change, but rather that BW stutterstep would make it much more important to utilize, rather than giving you a small edge.

On November 01 2013 17:55 dutchfriese wrote:



Huh?

You do realize that macro was much, much, much..... much harder in brood war vs sc2... right? There was no auto mine in sc2, players had to manually select each and every worker and tell them to mine minerals. That alone equals much more "clicking" vs sc2.

The problem with your premise is "i guess i just don't think fast clicking is important enough as it is". Fast clicking is what separated the champions of brood war from the pack. In brood war, if you didn't have 300+ apm you were literally nothing. Starcraft 2 on the other hand... this is not the case.

On November 01 2013 18:10 Sissors wrote:

And I guess that is where we disagree. Because I consider this EXTREMELY good. I don't want a game where your click speed is what seperates you from worse players. Sure micro should have a role, and does have a role. But I rather have it also important how you manage your economy (no that is not the same as how fast you had to click in BW just to mine), which units you decide to make (Yes I know there has been alot of bitching by BW players that that would be too important in SC2, I disagree), where you engage, how you engage, etc.

Now by making it alot easier to properly kite with vikings for example, you imo only make the winner depend more on who can click faster. That might sound like a paradox, easier kiting yet you have to spend more clicks on it. The problem is that what is ignored is balance. If you make vikings a lolol kiting into eternity unit then you have to hit it quite hard with the nerf hammer on its stats.

That means for the same effectiveness you have to spend more time clicking it. Those clicks aren't exactly the hardest one, definately easier than kiting now. But you do have to click a shitton. At the same time this comes at the cost of important of stuff like positioning your vikings.

In the end you are just raising the required amount of clicks to play well, but does that mean there is more depth in the game? I don't think so.

On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote:
If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful.
If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful.
Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.

On November 01 2013 18:22 dutchfriese wrote:



Well, clearly you didn't read my original post on the topic, i said the game needs to be rebalanced if this were to take effect.

You underestimate the amount of management involved with economy in sc2 vs brood war. Sc2 is a JOKE compared to brood war. Managing economy in sc2 is like petting a dog.

Honestly, you strike me as a person who has played very little brood war, and I don't think you understand the amount of APM that takes place to win a brood war match. It's not even about the amount of clicks. It's about the amount of necessary clicks AFTER macro, which currently in sc2 is relatively nonexistent, at least compared to brood war... it isn't even close.

I understand the person that wins in sc2 is the one that has the the best map presence and "best micro"... so what? it's easy mode compared to a game like brood war; and that is precisely the reason why the winners are incredibly volatile.

On November 01 2013 17:55 dutchfriese wrote:



Huh?

You do realize that macro was much, much, much..... much harder in brood war vs sc2... right? There was no auto mine in sc2, players had to manually select each and every worker and tell them to mine minerals. That alone equals much more "clicking" vs sc2.

The problem with your premise is "i guess i just don't think fast clicking is important enough as it is". Fast clicking is what separated the champions of brood war from the pack. In brood war, if you didn't have 300+ apm you were literally nothing. Starcraft 2 on the other hand... this is not the case. Why? Because the skill ceiling is DRAMATICALLY lower.

300 apm brood war =/= 300 apm sc2, and that's the entire point of lalush's video...

Sc2 could be better than brood war, but it will not be better until the micro mechanics are addressed. It's really as simple as that.

On November 01 2013 18:35 Sissors wrote:

1. And what you don't seem to understand is that I think that is a GOOD thing. I don't think requiring you to click faster makes it a better game. I think it makes it a worse game. If clicking alot is more important, than automatically everything else is less important. I don't think positioning should be less important, or strategy, or unit composition, etc.

2. Also I didn't play very little BW. I didn't play it at all. I used to play AOE games.

3. And it makes no sense whatsoever to say the winners are volatile due to the lack of required clicks. The winners are volatile because it is still a relative new game that is evolving. If it was volatile due to the lack of required clicks as you claim, then innovation would never have been able to dominate as he did. Because then also during his domination he would lose due to the lower skill ceiling or whatever. But he didn't, he won pretty much everything. He started losing because the meta evolved, balance patch, he became worse, pick one. But not because of randomness, then he would also have lost alot more during his domination period.

On November 01 2013 19:17 Miragee wrote:

2. Did you ever asked yourself why AoE wasn't near as competetive as SC was?

On November 01 2013 19:24 Grumbels wrote:
@Sissors

High apm requirements make strategic skill more relevant -- as long as you have equal apm to your opponent.

Also, "clickfest"... At some point you have to accept you should just play civilization and that the game is not meant for you.

On November 01 2013 19:49 flashimba wrote:
In summary, you don't want the game to become any harder for you.

That's perfectly acceptable.

On November 01 2013 19:45 Sissors wrote:

Did you ever wonder if I care? I don't play a game because progamers do it. Oh sure I enjoy watching WCS when it happens to be a good time I don't have anything else planned, but I don't play the game because pros do, I play the game because I enjoy playing it.


So this it boils down to? If you are against making it more dependent on mechanics and less on everything else you shouldn't play SC2? Maybe, looking at the direction SC2 took, they don't agree with you at Blizzard HQ and instead agree with me. Ever realised what the S in RTS stands for? It isn't APM. It is strategy.

Should we also add some other BW 'features'? Like only able to select one building? Also differentiates more between who can click fastest. I understand that the real-time part means that fast reactions and micro is an essential part of it too. I don't want that removed. But I also don't want it to become more important at the cost of other aspects of the game. But then apparantly I should move to Civilization. However why don't you just go to BW? I am already called a horrible person who should feel horrible about himself because I can't stand the graphics when watching it, so that isn't it either. Since it was a so much better game you can just enjoy that, while I enjoy SC2.

Now you just sound like quite some of my opponents who have to be really buthurt at the end of the game and flame me because they lost to a player with alot less APM.