• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:40
CEST 09:40
KST 16:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up5LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced58
StarCraft 2
General
Clem Interview: "PvT is a bit insane right now" Serral wins EWC 2025 TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Would you prefer the game to be balanced around top-tier pro level or average pro level? Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion How do the new Battle.net ranks translate? Which top zerg/toss will fail in qualifiers? Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Nobody gona talk about this year crazy qualifiers?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Bitcoin discussion thread 9/11 Anniversary
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 688 users

Code S - Ro16 Group D Preview (Season 3) - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
104 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Caladan
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany1238 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 23:43:56
September 29 2013 23:27 GMT
#101
Gotta agree to that.

The point in SC2 is that it's so fragile that very often not the better player wins, but the winner is determined by luck (best example: this close group). The skill ceiling in SC2 is reached by all the top players, and minor mistakes, random stuff like scouting luck or build order luck decide the games and often whole careers.
Flash has yet to improve, yes, but it's not his fault alone. How many "upsets" have been happening in the last months of SC2? It's the common thing in SC2 to happen.

A fact is: A top SC2 player can often lose to a worse player. Substantially more often than for example in Chess or also Starcraft:Broodwar.

Look at WCS EU. Three seasons and three times almost all new RO8 players. It's like shuffeling, luck and minor things.

For the best player to mostly win there needs to be a higher skill ceiling and more possibilities to come back. It's just not there yet in SC2 gameplay-wise - as all the results have shown the last year - and probably will never be, according to Blizzard.

And that all is in my opinion the prime reason for SC2's decline. The crowd wants heroes winning, it wants them to do things that normal players never could do (like thinking 8 moves ahead in chess or doing perfect storms in broodwar), and it wants comebacks to happen. All those things are rather seldom in SC2. But why am I writing this... 3 years ago we told Blizzard exactly this and nothing changed.
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
September 29 2013 23:37 GMT
#102
On September 30 2013 08:04 lifecanwait wrote:
Guys you should stop blaming the players on everything.

Do you actually still play this game? Do you play highest level? No? Then you don't have much clue.
Like Flash said in an interview, sc2 is so very different from bw. A slight mistake can cause you the game immediately. There are often no comebacks, just all-ins if players are smelling blood.
The whole game feels so fragile. In a BW match, you could fight on multiple fronts. There was 1000 x more strategy involved... Move your forces in the right way, get in position, flank, arch.
Now this is also coming more and more in sc2, but in how many matches can we acutally see this? 1/8 maybe. Most matches are actually quite boring especially lately in GSL.

And thanks to David Kim it is too late to 'change the pace' of the game. I will keep watching the highest level play but in terms of strategy this is just not the game I was looking forward to. The faster pace makes it even more reliant on APM and less on strategy. Mechanics is key, thinking is not necessary. Imho that's why a lot of the BW players are loosing vs the new sc2 pros. It's not tactics, it's not lack of strategy or game understanding. Sc2 is not hard to understand. It is lack of mechanics and fragility or pace of the game.

bro if you don't play at the highest level I don't think you can make any of these claims either rofl
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
Crowz
Profile Joined September 2013
4 Posts
September 30 2013 00:42 GMT
#103
On September 30 2013 04:58 H0i wrote:

You can watch them here for free: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/profile

Just make sure to hover over the video names and find the right order, because the order is a bit shuffled.


Thank you very much!!
mostwanted
Profile Joined March 2011
83 Posts
September 30 2013 02:38 GMT
#104
I agree that SC2 skill cap level has been reached

That explains why a tiny mistake is so intolerable and luck, blind counter builds play major role in MU
It wasn't the case with BW.
I am not playing this game enough to tell how but Blizzard needs to get more feedback from the pro seriously.
NA BNET forum is the worst place to get feedback on balance etc.

ASK those who play this for living and redesign this game in LoTV, you Blizzard only has 1 chance left.
Please make it worthy successor of BW
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 03:13:31
September 30 2013 02:56 GMT
#105
On September 30 2013 08:04 lifecanwait wrote:
The faster pace makes it even more reliant on APM and less on strategy. Mechanics is key, thinking is not necessary. Imho that's why a lot of the BW players are loosing vs the new sc2 pros. It's not tactics, it's not lack of strategy or game understanding. Sc2 is not hard to understand. It is lack of mechanics...

I'm a big fan of the BW players but seriously just read what you wrote and notice how retarded you sound. The BW players are losing due to a lack of mechanics? A lack of APM? SC2 requires far less. Mechanics is the main thing they've got going for them and the reason many struggle is that their mechanics used to carry them whereas strategic geniuses and micro/engagement specialists with inferior mechanics can now compete in SC2.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 20m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech11
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 5704
ggaemo 2205
Zeus 868
Backho 516
Larva 387
Leta 201
PianO 137
Nal_rA 91
ToSsGirL 53
Aegong 40
[ Show more ]
soO 19
ivOry 8
Dota 2
BananaSlamJamma202
XcaliburYe164
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K747
shoxiejesuss229
allub102
Other Games
summit1g6386
singsing777
Tasteless239
Fuzer 36
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick794
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 76
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta32
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1632
• Stunt248
• HappyZerGling147
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3h 20m
Stormgate Nexus
6h 20m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
8h 20m
The PondCast
1d 2h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 3h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
LiuLi Cup
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
RotterdaM Event
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.