• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:57
CEST 21:57
KST 04:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments2[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon10[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes155BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch2Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes SC4ALL: A North American StarCraft LAN Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon Why Storm Should NOT Be Nerfed – A Core Part of Pr
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Stellar Fest KSL Week 80 StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
Starcraft: Destruction expansion pack? StarCraft - Stratospace. Very rare expansion pack StarCraft Stellar Forces had bad maps ASL ro8 Upper Bracket HYPE VIDEO BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN [ASL20] Ro16 Group D BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch [ASL20] Ro16 Group C
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Borderlands 3 General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Big Programming Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Too Many LANs? Tournament Ov…
TrAiDoS
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1732 users

Code S - Ro16 Group D Preview (Season 3) - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
104 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Caladan
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany1238 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-29 23:43:56
September 29 2013 23:27 GMT
#101
Gotta agree to that.

The point in SC2 is that it's so fragile that very often not the better player wins, but the winner is determined by luck (best example: this close group). The skill ceiling in SC2 is reached by all the top players, and minor mistakes, random stuff like scouting luck or build order luck decide the games and often whole careers.
Flash has yet to improve, yes, but it's not his fault alone. How many "upsets" have been happening in the last months of SC2? It's the common thing in SC2 to happen.

A fact is: A top SC2 player can often lose to a worse player. Substantially more often than for example in Chess or also Starcraft:Broodwar.

Look at WCS EU. Three seasons and three times almost all new RO8 players. It's like shuffeling, luck and minor things.

For the best player to mostly win there needs to be a higher skill ceiling and more possibilities to come back. It's just not there yet in SC2 gameplay-wise - as all the results have shown the last year - and probably will never be, according to Blizzard.

And that all is in my opinion the prime reason for SC2's decline. The crowd wants heroes winning, it wants them to do things that normal players never could do (like thinking 8 moves ahead in chess or doing perfect storms in broodwar), and it wants comebacks to happen. All those things are rather seldom in SC2. But why am I writing this... 3 years ago we told Blizzard exactly this and nothing changed.
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
September 29 2013 23:37 GMT
#102
On September 30 2013 08:04 lifecanwait wrote:
Guys you should stop blaming the players on everything.

Do you actually still play this game? Do you play highest level? No? Then you don't have much clue.
Like Flash said in an interview, sc2 is so very different from bw. A slight mistake can cause you the game immediately. There are often no comebacks, just all-ins if players are smelling blood.
The whole game feels so fragile. In a BW match, you could fight on multiple fronts. There was 1000 x more strategy involved... Move your forces in the right way, get in position, flank, arch.
Now this is also coming more and more in sc2, but in how many matches can we acutally see this? 1/8 maybe. Most matches are actually quite boring especially lately in GSL.

And thanks to David Kim it is too late to 'change the pace' of the game. I will keep watching the highest level play but in terms of strategy this is just not the game I was looking forward to. The faster pace makes it even more reliant on APM and less on strategy. Mechanics is key, thinking is not necessary. Imho that's why a lot of the BW players are loosing vs the new sc2 pros. It's not tactics, it's not lack of strategy or game understanding. Sc2 is not hard to understand. It is lack of mechanics and fragility or pace of the game.

bro if you don't play at the highest level I don't think you can make any of these claims either rofl
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
Crowz
Profile Joined September 2013
4 Posts
September 30 2013 00:42 GMT
#103
On September 30 2013 04:58 H0i wrote:

You can watch them here for free: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/profile

Just make sure to hover over the video names and find the right order, because the order is a bit shuffled.


Thank you very much!!
mostwanted
Profile Joined March 2011
83 Posts
September 30 2013 02:38 GMT
#104
I agree that SC2 skill cap level has been reached

That explains why a tiny mistake is so intolerable and luck, blind counter builds play major role in MU
It wasn't the case with BW.
I am not playing this game enough to tell how but Blizzard needs to get more feedback from the pro seriously.
NA BNET forum is the worst place to get feedback on balance etc.

ASK those who play this for living and redesign this game in LoTV, you Blizzard only has 1 chance left.
Please make it worthy successor of BW
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-30 03:13:31
September 30 2013 02:56 GMT
#105
On September 30 2013 08:04 lifecanwait wrote:
The faster pace makes it even more reliant on APM and less on strategy. Mechanics is key, thinking is not necessary. Imho that's why a lot of the BW players are loosing vs the new sc2 pros. It's not tactics, it's not lack of strategy or game understanding. Sc2 is not hard to understand. It is lack of mechanics...

I'm a big fan of the BW players but seriously just read what you wrote and notice how retarded you sound. The BW players are losing due to a lack of mechanics? A lack of APM? SC2 requires far less. Mechanics is the main thing they've got going for them and the reason many struggle is that their mechanics used to carry them whereas strategic geniuses and micro/engagement specialists with inferior mechanics can now compete in SC2.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
16:05
FSL Archon Mode Competition
Liquipedia
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
08:00
Day 1 - Group Stages
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 193
JuggernautJason160
CosmosSc2 44
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 24713
Shuttle 323
Dewaltoss 156
firebathero 153
Rock 40
yabsab 33
Dota 2
Dendi1855
Fuzer 289
Counter-Strike
fl0m1554
Stewie2K280
Fnx 206
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor268
Other Games
FrodaN5445
tarik_tv5388
Grubby2083
Hui .215
XaKoH 122
NeuroSwarm71
Trikslyr71
TKL 64
KnowMe11
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1398
gamesdonequick826
angryscii48
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 71
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix14
• Adnapsc2 7
• HerbMon 7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4479
• masondota21756
Other Games
• Scarra890
• imaqtpie838
• WagamamaTV236
• Shiphtur218
• tFFMrPink 17
Upcoming Events
OSC
1h 3m
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
12h 3m
RSL Revival
14h 3m
Classic vs TBD
WardiTV Invitational
15h 3m
Online Event
20h 3m
Wardi Open
1d 15h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 20h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
LiuLi Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Maestros of the Game
6 days
Clem vs Reynor
[BSL 2025] Weekly
6 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-18
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.