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On September 24 2013 08:57 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:56 hansonslee wrote:
It's sad how worked up the community is being with this patch. Blizzard is trying really hard to make Toss less deathball with more harassment options.
If anyone is killing eSports, it's the community who doesn't give these changes a chance. the problem is that they can still go for the deathball just fine, this changes nothing, just allows for more gimmicky stuff which we already see so much.
Yeah, Protoss is "gimmicky" at times, but here's the problem., It relies on either "build orders" or "deathballs". Giving harassment options will give Toss more midgame options and more variety.
Furthermore, we still see very few solid Toss such as Rain, and they are damn too predictable.
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Classic bad ideas from blizzard here.
We're going to reduce oracles gas requirement to help it in the late game...? Wait what? The requirements significantly affect the early game. "We don't want to see Oracles used just for harass early game" --> Don't REDUCE it's cost, INCREASE it's functionality.
Nascar-speed DTs, as if they didn't already dodge in and out of detection as is. This is just obviously a bad change. DTs aren't even a hard unit to use. In fact, it's pretty much the easiest in the game.
The upgrade change for mech would be -okay- but it's still a shitty way of balancing mech. It's the units and the composition itself that is so vulnerable, not just one upgrade. They are practically admitting that they are too lazy to properly balance the game with a change like this.
Tank attack speed and widow mine splash radius are both fine, but tanks should be even a little faster than that. 10% decrease won't make enough of a difference. The widowmines splash, on the other hand, was a good idea, though I imagine the only time people would use them is in the early game due to the insane single-target damage it does. 1.1 radius is just too small to be worth managing and investing in mid and late game.
Roach burrow speed? Ehh, boring change. The burrow mechanic isn't really that good anyway. It's only ever used in roach burrow all-ins that hope to catch the opponent off-guard which almost always makes the match total shit from then on.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 24 2013 09:06 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 24 2013 08:48 Mjolnir wrote:
Just buff siege tank damage.
Seriously - the freaking things are a joke.
Buff their damage and people will actually consider using them over mines - and they may be used in more than ONE (barely) match up.
Tbh tanks do not work for a whole bunch of other reasons, damage is kinda irrelevant here. Such as? (Before I get into it, I'd like to know what you're thinking. You didn't really leave a lot to work with.)
Such as mutas, forcing passive play from terran (and passive play from terran does not end well) and what not.
Also, IMO: I like the direction but numbers will obviously need some tweaks. Also, the real balance problem is competitive mindset: if you buff something that can be used in all-in, they will do this all-in more often, nothing else.
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On September 24 2013 09:08 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 09:06 Mjolnir wrote:On September 24 2013 08:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 24 2013 08:48 Mjolnir wrote:
Just buff siege tank damage.
Seriously - the freaking things are a joke.
Buff their damage and people will actually consider using them over mines - and they may be used in more than ONE (barely) match up.
Tbh tanks do not work for a whole bunch of other reasons, damage is kinda irrelevant here. Such as? (Before I get into it, I'd like to know what you're thinking. You didn't really leave a lot to work with.) Such as mutas, forcing passive play from terran (and passive play from terran does not end well) and what not. Also, IMO: I like the direction but numbers will obviously need some tweaks.
Don't you think if there were better reward for using them that the counters wouldn't seem so harsh? Every unit should have a counter. My beef with tanks is they're countered so hard (as you suggest) that their own damage output isn't even worth it. Why make tanks when you can make more bio? If tanks actually had some damage behind their attacks, they'd provide incentive to risk making them (and protect them).
As for causing people to turtle more - that's up to the player; but I think more damage would provide greater offensive capabilities for them.
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On September 24 2013 08:14 PineapplePizza wrote:
As for the DT change, they should just merge the Dark Shrine with the Templar Archives. Right now, it's just this Cheese Tower that you construct to show your lack of shame and dignity, and dead-ends into defeat if your dt's don't kill 15 drones or whatnot. They've already made detection free and easy for everyone, so I don't see why this would be such a terrible idea >_>
Cheese tower is a term that should be used more liberally.
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On September 24 2013 08:59 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:56 hansonslee wrote:
It's sad how worked up the community is being with this patch. Blizzard is trying really hard to make Toss less deathball with more harassment options.
If anyone is killing eSports, it's the community who doesn't give these changes a chance. Protoss has so many good harassment options. The problem is, that they can easily win (especially on low levels) without using them. It´s just way more comfortable to macro just up, defend a bit, and then roll over one big fight, than to be active over the whole game. You won´t get Protoss players get more active unless you pull them out of their comfort zone. (this doesn´t apply to the very top level. We see those top protoss being very active with harassment)
Come for the comments stay for the insight. Never Change sc2 community.
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Hahahaham wtf. The DTs are like mutas....
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 24 2013 09:13 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 09:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 24 2013 09:06 Mjolnir wrote:On September 24 2013 08:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 24 2013 08:48 Mjolnir wrote:
Just buff siege tank damage.
Seriously - the freaking things are a joke.
Buff their damage and people will actually consider using them over mines - and they may be used in more than ONE (barely) match up.
Tbh tanks do not work for a whole bunch of other reasons, damage is kinda irrelevant here. Such as? (Before I get into it, I'd like to know what you're thinking. You didn't really leave a lot to work with.) Such as mutas, forcing passive play from terran (and passive play from terran does not end well) and what not. Also, IMO: I like the direction but numbers will obviously need some tweaks. Don't you think if there were better reward for using them that the counters wouldn't seem so harsh? Every unit should have a counter. My beef with tanks is they're countered so hard (as you suggest) that their own damage output isn't even worth it. Why make tanks when you can make more bio? If tanks actually had some damage behind their attacks, they'd provide incentive to risk making them (and protect them). As for causing people to turtle more - that's up to the player; but I think more damage would provide greater offensive capabilities for them.
I did not say they are countered so hard (in TvZ there are no real HARD counters to 'em on T2, but every T3 unit is one lol), i just mentioned that due to speedboost and widow mines it is easier to snipe tanks with mutas now.
About turtling: more damage will not prevent the fact that you have to turtle until at least few tanks before move out and even then you are likely to get cleaned up in a bad trade, should mutas snipe 'em.
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I think the radius nerf is a bit too much, but maybe the siege tank buff is a bit too little.
3.375 is way the fuck too fast for Dark Templar.
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In WoL Terran was the aggressive harassment oriented race and Protoss was the defensive base management race, now it seems like they want to flip things around. Only problem is that Terran still has to do damage in the mid game to prevent the protoss deathball.
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I think DT and Roach Speed buff are unnecessary. DTs as fast as Warp Prism with Speed upgrade, have same speed like Overseers with Speed upgrade and are real faster than ravens and observers with speed. I don't think its a good idea. DTs are often used and sometimes end the game early or do huge dmg. No need to buff them.
But I guess blizzard wants that the games stays imbalanced so the games are more exciting and entertaining.
They should change or buff the units that are underused like Carriers, BCs, maybe Ravens, Swarm Host, Infestor...
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On September 24 2013 08:56 hansonslee wrote:
It's sad how worked up the community is being with this patch. Blizzard is trying really hard to make Toss less deathball with more harassment options.
If anyone is killing eSports, it's the community who doesn't give these changes a chance.
So when you get a dt if it can't deal damage then you can just run away and turn into an archon which contribute to the deathball, or revelation that makes your deathball able to move accordingly to your opponents movement. Every single unit that is worth making for protoss will contribute to the deathball. The thing that makes the deathball so potent is that protoss got insant reiforcement and high output units like colossus and immortals, which also have long range considering their damage. However it is still fragile since the gateway units that is suppose to be the core set of units is too weak. Which arguably is due to warp gates.
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On September 24 2013 08:57 lolfail9001 wrote:l2read, they changed splash radius, range of widowmine is still the same.
i meant the explosion, like a hit from any other unit xD
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Dominican Republic614 Posts
Protoss getting some nice buff... dont know why many people dont like those buff... Protoss is becoming more interesting early game as they were in BW.
people keep calm this is just testing purpuses... dont need to be bashing new things on the game... anyways the game right now is so borring and stale that we need to test things and look how they work out...
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at this stage of the game, any random change is more than welcome
watching sc2 has become a chore
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On September 24 2013 09:08 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 09:06 Mjolnir wrote:On September 24 2013 08:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 24 2013 08:48 Mjolnir wrote:
Just buff siege tank damage.
Seriously - the freaking things are a joke.
Buff their damage and people will actually consider using them over mines - and they may be used in more than ONE (barely) match up.
Tbh tanks do not work for a whole bunch of other reasons, damage is kinda irrelevant here. Such as? (Before I get into it, I'd like to know what you're thinking. You didn't really leave a lot to work with.) Such as mutas, forcing passive play from terran (and passive play from terran does not end well) and what not. Also, IMO: I like the direction but numbers will obviously need some tweaks.
Zerglings (can pretty much shut down any sort of pre-maxed biotank push with just mass heavily upgraded lings), Swarm Hosts (Stalls pushes extremely efficiently, brings Mech pushes to a halt), Mutas (forces passive / defensive play, able to pick off stray tanks easily), Vipers (Blinding cloud + abduct), Ultras (Rapes marine/hellbat support, Tanks require so much gas maurader transition is harder), Immortals (Really good at tanking siege tank shots while shields are up and dishes out crazy damage, 3-4 shots tanks), Chargelots (Tanky unit recieves reduced damage and covers the gap quickly), Archons (Tanky unit that recieves reduced damage), Pheonix (Lift is rediculously strong vs tanks, effectively takes them out of the fight), VR / Tempest / Carrier (all powerful air units that Mech can't deal with cost or supply efficiently).
Not to mention Tanks are units that scale well with numbers, 1-3 tanks are a joke for Protoss or Zerg but ~8 start to get pretty scary. They also cut into gas a lot (Unit + Factories + Upgrades), taking away from upgrades and delaying any sort of push. If you want to commit to tanks, almost all of your gas has to go into them.
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DT speed buff o_o I can hear the terran in Artosis screaming off in the distance...
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I think these are all interesting changes.
(Possibly already said) I propose a change where the widow mine burrow speed up also increases the tank siege mode switch, possibly even faster than the currently proposed speed. You could make mech more dynamic in the late game without compromising the early game as it is.
Similarly I like Plansix' idea of adding DT speed with zealot charge.
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Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined
We've been looking at this for a long time now, and it feels like a solid step in the right direction.
This change will most likely affect air transitions rather than mech transitions. MMMVG will have 3/3 Vikings eventually but I'm just not seeing opportunities where Bio -> Mech is encouraged. The Mech standalone approach will be relatively unaffected, mostly because it doesn't affect the virtues of Mech; still have to pay the same for the same upgrades. Just makes it easier to incorporate air later on.
Mech's infrastructure is too demanding to have it be a parallel timeline to Bio and the units are not conducive to dynamic play at the moment. These are not absolute, but my suggestions would be build time reduction of Siege and Thor and/or gas reduction cost of Factory, which would lessen infrastructural constraints. We also need to take a real look at Siege and Thor with how ranged AoE GtG and GtA should be reconciled in the SC2 environment. Are we happy with the current Siege ball and one click? Retain smart fire for Siege? Are we happy with the slow a-move of Thor? Adjust supply scale of Thor? Was the Thor supposed be the Warhound?
Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
Widow Mine is supposed to be that transition into Mech, but it overlaps too well with Tank or Thor, since it's basically just a medium range AoE GtG and GtA. Its role needs to be fleshed out more, perhaps making it a more reliable and speedier fighter to really ease the loss of Bio squads. Perhaps Medivacs can regenerate cooldown. Perhaps Medivacs should just repair Mech too. A drastic AoE nerf is harsh with the current unit stats, but it will start to reshape its function by narrowing the AoE. Perhaps WMs should have a baby EMP effect, since the +shields modifier is basically just that, and Vipers are still a Mech issue.
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7
Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters.
This is an interesting change because it does indirectly nerf Immortal shields, rather than adding on damage that would be negated. It does relatively nothing against Vipers, so that's why I mentioned the WM idea. They will be "better" in general, so perhaps that's enough of a excuse to bring back Bio/Tank for TvZ. Eventually if you make Siege good enough, they will be used in TvP. Is it enough? Can't tell yet.
Oracle cost decreased from 150/150 to 150/100
Protoss feels like it has been playing too defensively (outside of Warp Prism harasses). We’re seeing Oracles only being used in the early game, and not much during any other stage of the game. We hope by reducing the gas cost of the Oracle, they’ll be used more throughout the game.
Reducing the cost seems like a change with good intent, but the quality of life won't change much, and it will still be relegated to 1 Oracle that sticks around if it lives. We already have the MsC as that sort of thing. Like a broken record, Oracle should take a page from Banshee and get just enough range to skirt around air defense, and a reduction in worker kills per second with less energy cost. Downtime due to energy seems to be a spectator failure. Boxer's Immortal Marines would be such blue balls if they just ran out of bullets. Revelation is still a dumb spell that promotes passive play until the debuff runs out, and Envision is still not enough to justify the cost.
Dark Templar movement speed increased from 2.813 to 3.375
We believe that Dark Templars could be more interesting to watch if it's not just a matter of the opponent being prepared or not. Even when their opponents are prepared, we believe by increasing Dark Templar’s movement speed, there could be more interesting interactions, such as dodging out of detection range more often
A lot of people say this just buffs gimmick, but it actually reduces gimmick by making it less one dimensional on detection or no detection. It'll be more annoying for the defender, but there's already plenty of other more annoying shit to deal with in this game. Warp Prism and DT can share the niche of skirmish hit and runs in their own way. DTs aren't prevalent enough to warrant such caution with their changes. I still like the Blink idea, that only comes about if you bother to research it. Blink Stalkers and DTs still are both mutually gas hungry enough where it shouldn't be that big of an issue. Also Blink Stalker/DT in PvZ was an interesting composition that no longer exists.
Roach speed upgrade also increases the burrowed roach movement speed from 1.41 to 2.25
We just don’t see Tunneling Claws coming into play much. There’s some really cool micro potential with burrow-moving Roaches, and we'd like to see how this goes in a test map.
I'm still on the fence about Roach Burrow micro. I've just never felt it that entertaining, but I am biased, so maybe people can chime in if they get a rush when all the Roaches just burrow 1/3rd into a battle and the enemy just camps just to restart the battle with 0 micro hit exchanges. I think Nydus would be a cooler focus.
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On September 24 2013 08:57 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:56 hansonslee wrote:
It's sad how worked up the community is being with this patch. Blizzard is trying really hard to make Toss less deathball with more harassment options.
If anyone is killing eSports, it's the community who doesn't give these changes a chance. the problem is that they can still go for the deathball just fine, this changes nothing, just allows for more gimmicky stuff which we already see so much.
Too bad for Protoss players then that their deathballs are winning nothing on the premier tournament scene these days. Neither is their cheese plays by the way. Something has to be buffed for Protoss to actually manage to win one more premier tournament before Legacy of the Void hits, but the polls reflect the lower tier players' problems in dealing with +a moving Protosses quite well. Everyone is against Protoss buffs, no matter how slight and necessary they may be.
The dumbest thing of course is that the so called community doesn't even know what kind of statistical and diagnostical balance tools Kim & his team at Blizzard have at their disposal because the forum posters aren't games designers. The community instead blindly follows rumours and gossip and takes the nonsense of forum loudmouths with personal agendas as gospel.
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EPT
