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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:16 TheOne26 wrote: you bring no counterarguments (because you have nothing), got it. Reading what the people who know Life well have written in this thread might work! | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:01 TheOne26 wrote: of course life benefited from the queen change, as did many other zergs. but i think the main factor for him being almost invincible in zvt was the fact that he had amazing infestor usage. i distinctly remember one game against marine king on ohana where he took a game-losing amount of much damage early on and actually had no way of coming back...but he made about 5 infestors and with burrow, kept popping up/fungalling/spamming infested terrans (off 2-base while marineking had his third) and actually managed to come back and win the game, was quite disgusting to watch lol. against mvp's strong style of mech use he would send his ling/b-ling army to counter when mvp moves out whilst using his infestors to mass fungal the mech army to stall/kill the army. this infestor retention whilst causing free damage was too much for terrans (because it was broken as fuck). leenock was another that had smart infestor (+broodlord) control and i remember multiple games where he would have his third denied over and over and still manage to comeback off 2 base against a 3/4 base terran because of the power of the infestor (and broodlord). look what happened to leenock now, he has disappeared just like life...sad stuff. on the other hand, you can see how well drg is doing now, he never relied on broken strats. hopefully he continues to dominate with ling/bling/muta because that will always be more fun to watch. You know, what most people remember about Life is his insane micro and inability to miss injects. Also, Life was one of the only zergs doing mass ling-muta in the mid-game for ZvT and Leenock was a ZvT specialist before DRG even entered the GSL | ||
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TheOne26
Australia142 Posts
@whatson, not missing injects isn't really something impressive these days. i'm more impressed by zergs having godly creep spread whilst keeping up on everything else macro/micro wise (i.e. scarlett). reply to your edit addition: yes leenock was amazing at zvt before. he also employed many different strategies in the matchup including crazy nydus plays. i only added that he took advantage and abused the strength of the late game zerg army after the patch (as any smart zerg would - you use the tools provided to win) and it was incredibly frustrating to watch in a T perspective. regardless, lets see how life does this tourny. hes looking good so far!  | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:31 TheOne26 wrote: @zealously i've read the majority of it, and i already know that most of his fans love him for his insane ling usage and control. but i strongly believe that his 'style' comes hand in hand with the WOL infestor. the ling counters were the crux behind buying enough time for the ultimate zerg army. this doesn't work anymore in hots, so i hope for his fans out there that he can adjust because i really doubt he will do well again otherwise. @whatson, not missing injects isn't really something impressive these days. i'm more impressed by zergs having godly creep spread whilst keeping up on everything else macro/micro wise (i.e. scarlett) As a follow-up question: how much of Life's play in WoL did you watch? Have you watched his pre-Queen games, for example? Or do you base your statements on word-of-mouth and the almost universal Zerg hate that plagued the forums around 2012 GSL Season 5/2013 GSL Season 1? | ||
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TheOne26
Australia142 Posts
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playnice
Malaysia302 Posts
I got nothing. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:31 TheOne26 wrote: @zealously i've read the majority of it, and i already know that most of his fans love him for his insane ling usage and control. but i strongly believe that his 'style' comes hand in hand with the WOL infestor. the ling counters were the crux behind buying enough time for the ultimate zerg army. this doesn't work anymore in hots, so i hope for his fans out there that he can adjust because i really doubt he will do well again otherwise. @whatson, not missing injects isn't really something impressive these days. i'm more impressed by zergs having godly creep spread whilst keeping up on everything else macro/micro wise (i.e. scarlett). reply to your edit addition: yes leenock was amazing at zvt before. he also employed many different strategies in the matchup including crazy nydus plays. i only added that he took advantage and abused the strength of the late game zerg army after the patch (as any smart zerg would - you use the tools provided to win) and it was incredibly frustrating to watch in a T perspective. regardless, lets see how life does this tourny. hes looking good so far! That's actually quite funny, because nobody in the world would say that Scarlett' had the macro (or the micro) that Life had. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
another disappointing run by life. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:39 TheOne26 wrote: i watched a few of his games when he was in ZENEX. he played like a regular zerg to me, nothing out of the ordinary. he definitely 'leveled up' shortly after he made the move to startale. Then how can you say that he relied on a broken composition to win? Life was always a Zerg who preferred early aggression with either ling/bling or roaches (he was especially good at wonky 2-base timings) and a muta/ling/bling midgame over playing for the super late-game with BL/Infestor and Spine Jungles. In fact, in his championship run through GSL4 he only played with the distinct goal of surviving until BL/infestor against Mvp, who had devised a style of mech specifically designed to counter Life's ling aggression. If your main tool is broken by an opponent, it's only natural to go for the next-best tool. In this case, this was BL/Infestor. It might have been broken and/or boring to watch, but don't bring in some crap about the majority of Life's successes coming from BL/infestor or Infestors being broken. There is truth to him being excellent at utilising infestors to stall, but attributing his success to mostly that is being ignorant. If you want to attribute it to one thing, it should be adaptability - something DRG lacks or at the very least lacked. Though I'm not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say. He used an aggressive ling-heavy style to get to the (alternatively: the only good late-game composition) best composition available, and we clump him (and Leenock, what the hell) up with the Zergs who had more turtle tendencies, attributing their wins and leads (which came from amazing early- and mid-games) to solely infestors? Or am I completely misinterpreting what you're saying? On another note: Scarlett's creep spread might be the best in the world. But even so, she doesn't have the macro nor the micro Life showcased during his championship runs. | ||
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TheOne26
Australia142 Posts
@playnice: i think my points just flew over your head, you seem like just an angry life fanboy. how about this, if he goes far at dreamhack while smashing good T's along the way i will take back what i said, ok? @zealously: maybe your right, "the majority" of his wins may have not been because of infestor/brood, but he always had that to rely on if things went sour. therefore he could never actually lose, which is what we saw with his crazy high win rate. without having a guaranteed free win vs T every game that goes past 15 mins things might have been different, especially that GSL vs MVP, where his style was read by MVP like you mentioned (mvp would go 2 fact. blue flame) but life would still win because he could fall back on all the broken shit. THAT is what is frustrating as hell. now that he has no OP things to fall back on we can see he is struggling. if you don't agree with my theory then why do you think he is not doing well all of a sudden? the guys on page 3/4 are not just spouting nonsense, there is an obvious connection there. by the way, i bring up leenock because unlike life who would usually enter the mid/late game ahead and then win, leenock would usually enter the mid/late game from behind (due to his nature of staying on 2 base for a very long time) and then still win by making ridiculous comebacks thanks to infestor/brood. it was just bullshit and i'm glad that whole phase is over. | ||
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Evenshade
131 Posts
On September 14 2013 19:59 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Flash vs Life final!^^ Make it happen! 2nd place is reserved for JD. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
ironically, after his winrates in other match-ups climbed up , his ZvZ became weaker to the point of getting 4-0'd by Soulkey, getting eliminated from IPL5 by Snute of all zergs there (no offence, but i would not consider Snute the guy you would expect to eliminate supposedly best zerg in the world) and winning Iron Squid on the back of reverse-sweeps in ZvZ (sorry, i consider reverse sweeps as choking of one getting reverse-swept). | ||
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TheOne26
Australia142 Posts
On September 14 2013 19:59 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Flash vs Life final!^^ Make it happen! 2nd place is reserved for JD. poor JD, if he gets another second he might just explode. we might even see marineking tears. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:58 TheOne26 wrote: @zealously: maybe your right, "the majority" of his wins may have not been because of infestor/brood, but he always had that to rely on if things went sour. therefore he could never actually lose, which is what we saw with his crazy high win rate. without having a guaranteed free win vs T every game that goes past 15 mins things might have been different, especially that GSL vs MVP, where his style was read by MVP like you mentioned (mvp would go 2 fact. blue flame) but life would still win because he could fall back on all the broken shit. THAT is what is frustrating as hell. now that he has no OP things to fall back on we can see he is struggling. if you don't agree with my theory then why do you think he is not doing well all of a sudden? the guys on page 3/4 are not just spouting nonsense, there is an obvious connection there. by the way, i bring up leenock because unlike life who would usually enter the mid/late game ahead and then win, leenock would usually enter the mid/late game from behind (due to his nature of staying on 2 base for a very long time) and then still win by making ridiculous comebacks thanks to infestor/brood. it was just bullshit and i'm glad that whole phase is over. Cosmicspiral put it very well in the fan club On September 13 2013 14:36 CosmicSpiral wrote: The more and more I watch Life's games leading up to Dreamhack, the more I'm convinced that his biggest problem is a mental one. It's not mechanics or strategy that is leading to his losses but uncharacteristically bad decisions and desperate moves that he would normally not pull in those situations. It gives me a lot of confidence as that can be addressed more easily with the right approach from a friend/teammate. If you'd watch his games, you'd find more than enough evidence to support this theory. Useless aggression in ZvZ, late tech switches in other match ups and strange unit movements across all three. His mechanical proficiency hasn't gone anywhere - he's still monstrous in terms of micro/macro and all that, but his decision making (building placement, builds, that kind of stuff) has been very shaky as of late. | ||
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TheOne26
Australia142 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 15 2013 01:28 Zealously wrote: Cosmicspiral put it very well in the fan club If you'd watch his games, you'd find more than enough evidence to support this theory. Useless aggression in ZvZ, late tech switches in other match ups and strange unit movements across all three. His mechanical proficiency hasn't gone anywhere - he's still monstrous in terms of micro/macro and all that, but his decision making (building placement, builds, that kind of stuff) has been very shaky as of late. Exactly. It almost seems like most of modern zergs either derp alot, while having insane mechanics (Losira, DRG sometimes, Life, JD in JvP) or have brilliant decisions, but lack in mechanics department (compared to). | ||
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playnice
Malaysia302 Posts
On September 15 2013 01:32 lolfail9001 wrote: Exactly. It almost seems like most of modern zergs either derp alot, while having insane mechanics (Losira, DRG sometimes, Life, JD in JvP) or have brilliant decisions, but lack in mechanics department (compared to). I'm guessing the later is Nestea, and the closest to having both is Soulkey. | ||
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playnice
Malaysia302 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:58 TheOne26 wrote: @whatson: your right, but nobody would say she had his infestor control either, so which was the winning factor? ;p @playnice: i think my points just flew over your head, you seem like just an angry life fanboy. how about this, if he goes far at dreamhack while smashing good T's along the way i will take back what i said, ok? @zealously: maybe your right, "the majority" of his wins may have not been because of infestor/brood, but he always had that to rely on if things went sour. therefore he could never actually lose, which is what we saw with his crazy high win rate. without having a guaranteed free win vs T every game that goes past 15 mins things might have been different, especially that GSL vs MVP, where his style was read by MVP like you mentioned (mvp would go 2 fact. blue flame) but life would still win because he could fall back on all the broken shit. THAT is what is frustrating as hell. now that he has no OP things to fall back on we can see he is struggling. if you don't agree with my theory then why do you think he is not doing well all of a sudden? the guys on page 3/4 are not just spouting nonsense, there is an obvious connection there. by the way, i bring up leenock because unlike life who would usually enter the mid/late game ahead and then win, leenock would usually enter the mid/late game from behind (due to his nature of staying on 2 base for a very long time) and then still win by making ridiculous comebacks thanks to infestor/brood. it was just bullshit and i'm glad that whole phase is over. I'm just having fun with you. No anger here. And if you are so convinced of the "fact" when there is already a huge body of evidence to suggest the contrary then I can't understand how a DH result will change your view about his past. Either you watched enough games to make a different conclusion or Life as everyone knows it cease to have existed. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 15 2013 00:58 TheOne26 wrote: @whatson: your right, but nobody would say she had his infestor control either, so which was the winning factor? ;p I don't understand the question, because Life always used mutas against bio unlike Scarlett' who always used infestors, so I would say it was Life's muta/ling/bling control that made him the best player in the world. In fact, all your arguments are centered around Life vs MVP, so that makes me believe that series was the only set of Life's games that you've ever watched. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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